Appropriate time to get spring attack?

[Masakan]

Ok i know that this feat is widely considered utter garbage on this forums.
But lets say for some CRAZY reason you had or felt you had to get it
What would be the earliest/latest you could get it with it still being useful?

[daremetoidareyo]

Level two on a human planar fighter, when you take your first level of jaunter from expedition to the demonweb pits. Planeshift by level 5 baby.

It also pairs nicely with skirmish damage and a decent hide skill. In this case, desert wind dodge is a great substitution for normal dodge.

Its not that spring attack is bad, it just requires two terrible pre-reqs and it outright, incontravertably nixes heavy armor. Dodge and Mobility make the base of a pretty great tree of feats.

[Pluto!]

Just ignoring the AoO from movement isn't bad for a non-pouncer. It just isn't something that I'd be happy sinking feats into until after a character already has its central feat combos online.

So probably level 12-15ish. Maybe as low as level 10 if we're talking straightclassed Fighter without noncore feats.

[Necroticplague]

Personally, I'd beg it at "after I've got an Ethereal Reaver and can bind Phase Cloak to the right bind". But that's more for the cool factor of slipping into another dimension, stabbing someone while you're there, then returning back a bit aways like a knockoff version of nightcrawler than any actual effectiveness.

[Ruethgar]

Level one on a Martial Monk to go into Jaunter asap.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You need a couple things to make spring attack viable.

1) A standard attack that can do level appropriate damage without needing to full attack and/or that can deny your enemy his actions. Improved trip is an option.

2) A move speed in excess of 120ft so that you can move from outside charging distance in to deliver the attack and back out of charging distance. Standard terrestrial speed is 30ft and charging moves you across twice that so 60ft in and 60ft back out with a reach weapon. Unless you can deny the enemy actions so that he can't charge you.

3) Favorable terrain so that you can move from either cover or concealment to the enemy and back to cover or concealment so that you can't be charged.

Spring attack can come online at level 4 at the earliest with a fighter dip on 4 after three levels in whatever full BAB class you prefer. If you want it to be particularly useful you need to meet one or more of the above criteria.

[Masakan]

You need a couple things to make spring attack viable.

1) A standard attack that can do level appropriate damage without needing to full attack and/or that can deny your enemy his actions. Improved trip is an option.

2) A move speed in excess of 120ft so that you can move from outside charging distance in to deliver the attack and back out of charging distance. Standard terrestrial speed is 30ft and charging moves you across twice that so 60ft in and 60ft back out with a reach weapon. Unless you can deny the enemy actions so that he can't charge you.

3) Favorable terrain so that you can move from either cover or concealment to the enemy and back to cover or concealment so that you can't be charged.

Spring attack can come online at level 4 at the earliest with a fighter dip on 4 after three levels in whatever full BAB class you prefer. If you want it to be particularly useful you need to meet one or more of the above criteria.

1. You would basically have to front load all your damage which is possible with something like JPM

2-3 Swiftblade makes this very possible, However I would argue that you can get away with 100, provided that there is some cover around, if you are in an open plain, your gonna have a hard time regardless, I'd also suggest getting snap kick for more drive by damage early on.

[Curmudgeon]

The appropriate time is when you've acquired the other prerequisites for the feat to a useful purpose. To me, that mostly means after entering Shadowdancer at level 8, and thus Spring Attack is best obtained as the level 9 feat. Spring Attack itself isn't worse than middling, but Dodge and Mobility are two very poor feats. The only way to justify them is by getting two rewards (Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack) for the investment.

[Masakan]

The appropriate time is when you've acquired the other prerequisites for the feat to a useful purpose. To me, that mostly means after entering Shadowdancer at level 8, and thus Spring Attack is best obtained as the level 9 feat. Spring Attack itself isn't worse than middling, but Dodge and Mobility are two very poor feats. The only way to justify them is by getting two rewards (Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack) for the investment.

I would have to disagree partially, Dodge isn't all that bad a feat considering there are various variations of it that qualify, I personally consider desert wind dodge to be at least passable

Mobility.....yeah screw that. Good at an armor enchantment but garbage as a feat.

[Tiri]

personally consider desert wind dodge to be at least passable

It's not much better than Dodge at all. 1 point of damage is barely an improvement, especially of a type that is commonly resisted, and it has the additional requirement of moving 10 feet.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not much better than Dodge at all. 1 point of damage is barely an improvement, especially of a type that is commonly resisted, and it has the additional requirement of moving 10 feet.
It's worse than that, because you only get that 1 point of bonus damage with scimitar, light mace, light pick, spear, or falchion: weapons which are usually not chosen, precisely because their base damage is underwhelming.

[Necroticplague]

I would have to disagree partially, Dodge isn't all that bad a feat considering there are various variations of it that qualify, I personally consider desert wind dodge to be at least passable

Mobility.....yeah screw that. Good at an armor enchantment but garbage as a feat.

Um, if you prefer to take something instead of dodge that serves as it for purposes of prereqs, that's a pretty good indication that dodge itself isn't very good. And the feats that you can take instead are all pretty meh. Midnight Dodge isn't worth the essentia, Expeditious Dodge is a pain to use while still maximizing your utility (keeping it active will require burning resources for a large amount of free movement), Desert Wind Dodge is pretty meh overall, but easiest to have all the time (sparring dummy of the master, here I come!). You're right that DWD is probably the best, but that's because the bar is so low Flat Stanley would have a hard time fitting under it.

[Masakan]

It's worse than that, because you only get that 1 point of bonus damage with scimitar, light mace, light pick, spear, or falchion: weapons which are usually not chosen, precisely because their base damage is underwhelming.

Then let's think of it this way, The 2 feats themselves are bad, but are gateway feats for at least 3 feats that are very good. The aforementioned spring attack/Bounding Assault and the very good elusive target. Because really who wouldn't want the ability to take the power of annoying chargers and simply turn it off?

[Pluto!]

The best thing about Dodge is that it works with Elusive Target, which is sometimes higher upside than its variants. Depends on Things.

[Masakan]

The best thing about Dodge is that it works with Elusive Target, which is sometimes higher upside than its variants. Depends on Things.

Let's also keep in mind how it works as well.
"During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action"
One could argue that this could apply to free actions as well. So it would basically be a flat +1 bonus regardless.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Expeditious Dodge is okay on a spring attacker. +2 to AC if you move 40'. It's still not a great feat, of course.

[Necroticplague]

Then let's think of it this way, The 2 feats themselves are bad, but are gateway feats for at least 3 feats that are very good. The aforementioned spring attack/Bounding Assault and the very good elusive target. Because really who wouldn't want the ability to take the power of annoying chargers and simply turn it off?

Spring attack and Bounding Assault aren't 'very good', and elusive target is merely decent. Chargers still do good chunks of damage without any PA, to that's not turning it off, that's somewhat reducing it (and I'm not sure to a level that matters.).Cause Overreach and Diverting Defence require putting yourself in very vulnerable positions for them to work, so I question their utility.

[Masakan]

Spring attack and Bounding Assault aren't 'very good', and elusive target is merely decent. Chargers still do good chunks of damage without any PA, to that's not turning it off, that's somewhat reducing it (and I'm not sure to a level that matters.).Cause Overreach and Diverting Defence require putting yourself in very vulnerable positions for them to work, so I question their utility.

You try getting One shotted By a Charging, Leap Attacking, Shock trooper barbarian and tell me you wouldn't wanna do whatever you could to make sure it never happens again.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Elusive Target isn't it, I'd rather use Abrupt Jaunt or Evasive Reflexes (+Press the Advantage +DC40 Tumble check) or somesuch. Or, you know, celerity + prismatic wall is pretty funny.

[Necroticplague]

You try getting One shotted By a Charging, Leap Attacking, Shock trooper barbarian and tell me you wouldn't wanna do whatever you could to make sure it never happens again.

My point is, I don't think Elusive Target does enough on that front. Especially since it requires knowing which one's the charger ahead of time. Hold the Line, Large and In Charge, Combat Reflexes, Isle of Blades, or making the in-between terrain unchargeable, are all more effective means of achieving the same goal.

[Curmudgeon]

You try getting One shotted By a Charging, Leap Attacking, Shock trooper barbarian and tell me you wouldn't wanna do whatever you could to make sure it never happens again.
The thing is, I play characters who never get charged at all, let alone one shotted. I play Rogues with Hide in Plain Sight.
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
I might play a Cleric who could cast the simple 0-level Create Water to turn the ground into mud (difficult terrain) between them and the enemy.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
I could even play a Monk with the Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait, who has more than double the speed of the would-be charger and can easily stay out of range.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.
Or I'd play a flier, who pelts the wannabe charger with ranged attacks.

They've got one trick. When it works, it works well. But it's a really easy trick to avoid.

[Pluto!]

Cause Overreach and Diverting Defence require putting yourself in very vulnerable positions for them to work, so I question their utility.
Don't look at them as combat tactics. Look at them as a variant of "immunity to flanking" with upside.

I'm not going to claim that Elusive Target is a feat that's worth 3 feat slots, but I think severly hindering two of the most accessible bonus damage sources (PA and SA) is a pretty good use of one feat slot for characters who already satisfy the prereqs for one reason or another. Good enough to often fill the gap between basic Dodge and its variants.

[Rebel7284]

Armor of Mobility makes Spring attack 50% easier to qualify for.

There is also a bloodline that gets Dodge as a bonus feat in case bloodlines are allowed.

[Masakan]

Armor of Mobility makes Spring attack 50% easier to qualify for.

There is also a bloodline that gets Dodge as a bonus feat in case bloodlines are allowed.

I came to the conclusion long ago that having mobility on your armor is way too risky, as it gets very easy for your DM to Dispel your armor and **** you over

This dodge bloodline however I'm very interested in.

[daremetoidareyo]

Don't look at them as combat tactics. Look at them as a variant of "immunity to flanking" with upside.

I'm not going to claim that Elusive Target is a feat that's worth 3 feat slots, but I think severly hindering two of the most accessible bonus damage sources (PA and SA) is a pretty good use of one feat slot for characters who already satisfy the prereqs for one reason or another. Good enough to often fill the gap between basic Dodge and its variants.

Look at them as combat tactics. VOP Nonviolence and Peace, martial rogue 4/fighter 2/cobra strike monk 2, fortunes friend 5, maybe even devoted defender 1. You AC is sky high, you use gnome tunnel acrobatics and low blow, and elusive target and deceptive dodge and combat panaches. Always be doing full defense, use your luck pool on good karma to jump infront of other people, who miss, then redirect bad guys into killing each other, you never break your vow of nonviolence if you keep on dodging blows and redirecting them towards the bad guys. You can probably fit broken one's sacrifice on there if you wanted to also. You'de be an exalted calamity jane.

[Karnith]

This dodge bloodline however I'm very interested in.
There are actually several that grant Dodge, being the Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#devil), Fire Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#elementalFire), Djinni (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#genieDjinni), Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#genieEfreeti), and sometimes Lycanthrope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#lycanthrope) bloodlines. The earliest a bloodline will grant it to you is at level 2, with a major Devil bloodline. An intermediate Fire Elemental bloodline will also grant you Mobility and Spring Attack, albeit very slowly.

[Cwymbran-San]

A Level 1 Swordsage can improvise Spring Attack by means of two maneuvers: Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike and then Tumble DC 15 out of the enemies threatened area. Uses up two of your maneuvers but is in effect the only first-level hit-and-run that i know of.

[WalkingTheShade]

The Varag (3HD + LA+2 = ECL 5) race gets Spring Attack and Run as bonus feats without the need for any prerequisites.
They also get a speed of 60ft and good racial adjustments for a melee fighter.
I believe the LA+2 is worth it.
Scout as a favored class meshes well with a spring attacker (extra movement + skirmish).

[Rebel7284]

Also, in general, Flyby Attack >>> Sprint Attack.

[WalkingTheShade]

Also, in general, Flyby Attack >>> Sprint Attack.
Not necessarily. Flyby attack doesn't open the way to Rapid blitz and other feats in the chain.