[3.5] Sorcerer vs Warlock

[Gale]

What advantages does the Sorcerer class have over Warlocks? A friend of mine was wondering about this and I couldn't figure out an adequate way to explain it.

[Masakan]

What advantages does the Sorcerer class have over Warlocks? A friend of mine was wondering about this and I couldn't figure out an adequate way to explain it.
Sorcerers scale WAY better than Warlocks...but warlocks...pretty much get to use their stuff for as long as they want.
So that's something to consider.

[Jack_Simth]

What advantages does the Sorcerer class have over Warlocks? A friend of mine was wondering about this and I couldn't figure out an adequate way to explain it.
Lots of things.
1) Flexibility. The Warlock ends up with... what, a dozen invocations known at 20th? The Sorcerer will know 3 9th level spells, 3 8ths, 3 7ths, 3 6ths... already met the Warlock's known... 4 5ths, 4 4ths, 4 3rds, 5 2nds, 5 1sts, and 9 0ths. They've got essentially the same distribution of effective spell levels, but the Sorcerer has more, by a lot.
2) Short term power. The warlock's abilities don't really scale well. Eldritch blast caps at 9d6. The Sorcerer's 3rd level Fireball caps at 10d6. The Sorcerer, at 10th, is doing more raw damage than the Warlock does at 20th. There's a save, sure, but the Sorcerer at 20th is using one of his weaker effects and doing more base damage than is the warlock at 20th. Yeah, there's items and feats to improve the eldritch blast... but you know what? There are for the Sorcerer's spells, too.
3) Supplemental materials. The Warlock gots very few supplements in later books. Little PrC support, few new invocations, nearly no ACF. The Sorcerer? As a Core class, it's got new PrCs, ACFs, and spells in almost every book in the game.

Yes, the Warlock can go all day. For the Sorcerer, there's a feat for that.

About the only way the Warlock actually beats out the Sorcerer is UMD and Imbue Item to become an artificer-lite, or if the DM has made a campaign that very specifically plays to the Warlock's strengths (grinding long-term vs. mooks, with lots of wands of healing available).

[PallentisLunam]

Utility. I haven't read through the warlock's invocations recently but that's the biggest advantage an sorcerer is going to have over a warlock. And that is really going to depend on the sorcerer's very limited spell selection. Also the sorcerer will be able to use scrolls, wands, and other spell completion type items that the warlock can't without UMD.

Other than that I can't really think of much.

[Masakan]

Yes, the Warlock can go all day. For the Sorcerer, there's a feat for that.

What would that feat be?

[Vhaidara]

What would that feat be?

Any reserve feat.

[Zanos]

The sorcerer casts of the Sor/Wiz spell list, making it one of the most powerful classes in the game. The Warlock invocations neither have the range or sheer scope of power of many of the better wizard spells.


Also, a Sorcerer should rarely run out of spell slots unless your GM never lets you recover spells.

[Nifft]

Warlocks have unlimited use of their (few) powers, and their powers are very limited.

Warlocks have Use Magic Device as a class skill -- most Sorcerers don't, without tricks -- and Warlocks are alone in getting Deceive Item.

Warlocks start out okay and remain okay through level 20.


Sorcerers have limited use of their powers, and their powers are somewhat limited.

Sorcerers lose almost nothing by taking a Prestige Class.

Sorcerers start out weak and become very, very strong by level 20.

[Pluto!]

What advantages does the Sorcerer class have over Warlocks? A friend of mine was wondering about this and I couldn't figure out an adequate way to explain it.
Shapechange
Gate
Time Stop
Polymorph Any Object
Simulacrum
Arcane Spellsurge
Animate Dread Warrior
Arcane Fusion
Teleport
Polymorph
Celerity
Wings of Cover
Wings of Flurry
Orb of Fire
Enervation
Ray of Stupidity
Alter Self
etc.

[AvatarVecna]

Beyond the immediate mechanical advantages (spellcasting>invocations, both for power and versatility), the Sorcerer has another advantage: it's a Core class. Every supplement in the game, from the Monster Manual to the Book of Exalted Deeds is built around supporting the Core classes: every book has options for them, sometimes even more so than classes introduced in that same book. Hell, the Warlock is an example of the latter: it's an arcane class presented in Complete Arcane, and that book still gives more support to the sorcerer than to the Warlock...and the Warlock gets basically no dedicated support outside of Complete Arcane, while every single book has options for sorcerers, even if they're ****ty options.

[Jack_Simth]

Any reserve feat.
Specifically the ones in Complete Mage, but I believe a few showed up in Complete Champion as well, yes. Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, and Minor Shapeshift (not necessarily in that order) are the go-to reserve feats, for the most part. Magic Sensitive has a niche use, but there's better options for the same niche. Summon Elemental also has some niche uses.

[DeAnno]

The Warlock is stronger at very early levels due to the nature of spell slots, and especially spontaneous casting. I would say this advantage is eroded to nothing by level 6, possibly as late as level 8 with low optimization on both.

The main advantage of the Warlock at later levels is actually that it's a much better crafter, and in fact probably the best crafter in really remote conditions with no magic marts around. Warlocks also have a couple other tricks that are very good in support, such as spamming Dark Foresight over the whole party and having reasonable at will battlefield control. One thing the lategame Warlock is not though, is a solo artist; all of his better tricks at that point are very team-oriented.

[Troacctid]

Warlock invocations often gain value by being spammable. A good example of this is Dispel Magic. A Sorcerer with Dispel Magic might fail to dispel an effect and waste spell slots until he runs out. The Warlock, on the other hand, can cast Voracious Dispelling over and over again until it succeeds, because it doesn't cost him anything to use. When you can effectively take 20 on the dispelling check, the spell takes on a whole new dimension.

Other invocations gain value by having vastly extended durations. The Sorcerer has to ask himself "Do I want to be invisible for the next few minutes?" and, if the answer is yes, spend a standard action casting Invisibility. The Warlock is just invisible all the time until he decides not to be--even if he's caught flat-footed, he'll still be invisible at the start of combat, and he doesn't even need to anticipate the fight or even spend an action. Same with Fell Flight, Otherworldly Whispers, Call of the Beast, See the Unseen, Spiderwalk, and so on. Sorcerers have to decide when they want to use Fly, Ancient Knowledge, Speak with Animals, See Invisibility, or Spider Climb; Warlocks have them active constantly, and never have to worry about their action economy or durations.

[TheifofZ]

To boil it down: Warlocks can buff themselves at the start of the day with all their buffs, and then spam their invocations every round 'till forever, and they'll pass out from exhaustion before they run out of options. Warlocks also shift into a decent support class, end game, and one of the best magic item crafters, next to Artificer.

Sorcerers can cast high level magic. Lots of high level magic. And as a spell-caster, they get more options than the invocation-limited Warlock.

And then Sorcerers are core, so they get tons of support, but Warlocks are non-core, and get negligible amounts of options.
So if you want high power early that transitions into decent support, no concern for power conservation, and magic crafting, go warlock.
If you want to ride a power trip with a bajillion options, go sorcerer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In a word: options.

I'd also add, since it hasn't been said already, that there's no real major difference between unlimited use powers and limited use powers with arbitrary reset buttons. As soon as a Sorcerer has access to Rope Trick (which can be as easy as a wand since it is on his spell list), he will never really run out of any spell. And he has access to FAR more powerful spells than the Warlock has.

[Aleolus]

Specifically the ones in Complete Mage, but I believe a few showed up in Complete Champion as well, yes. Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, and Minor Shapeshift (not necessarily in that order) are the go-to reserve feats, for the most part. Magic Sensitive has a niche use, but there's better options for the same niche. Summon Elemental also has some niche uses.

Really? I tend to favor Invisible Needle. Not a lot of damage, but its an at-will Force effect

[Jack_Simth]

Really? I tend to favor Invisible Needle. Not a lot of damage, but its an at-will Force effect
It's also a ranged attack roll rather than a ranged touch attack roll. On a Cleric that might be OK, likewise on a decent gish, but on a "normal" Sorcerer or Wizard? You're not going to land many.

[Troacctid]

Really? I tend to favor Invisible Needle. Not a lot of damage, but its an at-will Force effect

I think on average, the times you miss from targeting normal AC rather than touch will outweigh the times you miss because the target is incorporeal or ethereal. Add in the reduced damage, and I think it comes out behind Acidic Splatter.

[Telonius]

The Warlock has the potential to be pretty versatile, but that's very much dependent on time, gold, and XP. Imbue Item and Deceive Item allow him to be a poor man's Artificer. It's going to cost him a bunch of gold to do so, but he can get quite a lot of the Sorcerer's tricks in scroll form. Depending on how well-built the Sorcerer is (are you able to expand your list of spells known, do you have the Greater Shadow Evocation/Conjuration covered?) Warlock might even come out slightly ahead. Higher BAB and hp, as well, but that's pretty minor. So I'd say that the Warlock probably has a higher power floor than the Sorcerer does. On the down side, it takes a really, really long time for those features to turn on, Artificer does it miles better, and again, how useful those features are going to be is really campaign- and DM-dependent.

[Flickerdart]

Warlocks are better in only two scenarios:

No time constraint: Just like taking 20 on Open Lock is oftentimes better than knock, a warlock who is not particularly rushed can spam his things until the cows come home. If he has the right tools for the job, that is.
Endless waves of weenies: If your DM read somewhere about the "15 minute adventuring day" and how it's bad somehow, and decides to send loads and loads of weak dudes at you, the warlock's low-power all-day output wins again. As long as he has a friend to heal him, of course - his HP isn't at-will.

[Evolved Shrimp]

What advantages does the Sorcerer class have over Warlocks? A friend of mine was wondering about this and I couldn't figure out an adequate way to explain it.

A sorcerer loses nothing by taking prestige classes, as long as they have full casting progression. So it's more appropriate to compare the warlock to a sorcerer/incantatrix or sorcerer/sublime chord or other more realistic builds.

That doesn't change the basic equation but shifts the balance even more towards the sorcerer.

[Firkraag]

From a roleplaying standpoint, as a Warlock you are constantly magical. You are always armed and dangerous, at any point you are prepared, you don't need to rest or sleep to regain lost firepower. In the night after tough battle Sorcerer might be a easy target - you aren't (and don't forget about light armors). And, also you're a way more creepier, than avarage sorcerer. Invocations may be useful, but unless you want to build your reputation on the lots of (failed) intimidate checks and end up burned by inadequate witch hunters, inquisitors and peasants, you might consider sorcerer a better choice. Also, a Sorcerers are not limited in their alignment, and unless they give reason to be considered either bad or lawless guys, they aren't usually hunted down or frowned upon by mere display of their magic.

From a commoner's point, there isn't much difference between Sorcerer and Wizard, if you really want, you can pretend to be one without a sweat. As a warlock, you can be invisible 24 hours per day, but a Sorcerer you can build more upon that fifteen minutes of invisibility. Wizard/Sorcerer list has tons of different spell chains - something, that will work towards a bunch of potential roles to fill in. Warlock is already focused on one particular "image", and even within it's boundaries, she has a tiny part of all possible invocations.

On the other hand, if these warlocks are numerous and, at least partially accepted, lawful and neutral evil Warlocks would be adored by lawful evil military. The reasons for that? They are simple and they are magical cannons. Even without other invocations, warlocks is useful firepower asset. Evil Army artillery? Check. Dark Overlord enforcers? Check. Evil Secret Police spec ops? Check. If they outnumber Sorcerers, they're basically mass market version, of what experienced Sorcerer can do better. But, also they can deal with (identify, disarm, handle, replicate) hundreds of magical items without additional preparations. Nice bonus to their resume for Evil Henchmen Corps.

Keep in mind, that it is matters of setting and campaign. I just voiced opportunities.

[carrdrivesyou]

The real question here is: do I want to have super powers, but only some of the time, or do I want decent powers that never run out or turn off? Both are nice in their own ways, and which one is better really depends on the campaign setting.

In a low magic campaign, a warlock would likely fit the bill better, but in a campaign where each city has a magic mart, a sorcerer would feel right at home.

Just my thoughts here,
-Carr

[Nifft]

With a Reserve feat, the Sorcerer never needs to run out of power, either.

[Firkraag]

With a Reserve feat, the Sorcerer never needs to run out of power, either.Until they do run out of power, because even 1st level spell slots aren't infinite. And if they had (somehow) lost their combat spells, it's actually starts a death spiral, as lower spell slots means lesser damage, while Warlock attacks with highest level blasts constantly.

[Nifft]

Until they do run out of power, because even 1st level spell slots aren't infinite.

A Reserve feat allows endless spamming of a single Supernatural power all day without costing any spell slots.

You just need one unspent slot which you hold in reserve.

Thus the name.

[Firkraag]

A Reserve feat allows endless spamming of a single Supernatural power all day without costing any spell slots.

You just need one unspent slot which you hold in reserve.

Thus the name.

Oh. Well, you're right. That doesn't look broken in any way.

On a side note, Warlocks, though, can be a bit more creative about it without spending additional feats. Energy, side effects, shapes. If it's not a duel, but a contest...

[Vhaidara]

Oh. Well, you're right. That doesn't look broken in any way.

On a side note, Warlocks, though, can be a bit more creative about it without spending additional feats. Energy, side effects, shapes. If it's not a duel, but a contest...

They're also usually garbage. Fiery Burst, for example, if you reserve a 9th level spell slot for Meteor Swarm, is at will 9d4 fire damage in a 10ft burst at Close Range. In exchange for a 9th level spell slot.

[Troacctid]

They're also usually garbage. Fiery Burst, for example, if you reserve a 9th level spell slot for Meteor Swarm, is at will 9d4 fire damage in a 10ft burst at Close Range. In exchange for a 9th level spell slot.

It's 9d6 damage. Same as Eldritch Blast at level 20.

[Nifft]

Oh. Well, you're right. That doesn't look broken in any way.

On a side note, Warlocks, though, can be a bit more creative about it without spending additional feats. Energy, side effects, shapes. If it's not a duel, but a contest... It's not broken, just like Warlocks doing their thing all day isn't broken, but it does mean the Warlock has to find another niche other than "all day blast guy"... unless you're playing classes restricted to Tier 3-4, which is a thing that I personally recommend, because I honestly like Warlocks and Binders more than Wizards and Druids.


They're also usually garbage. Fiery Burst, for example, if you reserve a 9th level spell slot for Meteor Swarm, is at will 9d4 fire damage in a 10ft burst at Close Range. In exchange for a 9th level spell slot.

Fiery Burst tops out at 9d6, not 9d4.

9d6 is also where a Warlock's Eldritch Blast tops out.

It's Fire damage, which is bad, but no SR applies to Fiery Burst, so it's got some upside.

But the point is: there are several Reserve feats which can scale up in a roughly analogous way to Eldritch Blast, plus you get all the rest of being a Sorcerer all day.

[HalfQuart]

In a low magic campaign, a warlock would likely fit the bill better, but in a campaign where each city has a magic mart, a sorcerer would feel right at home.
I'm not sure this is really true -- at least before level 12 when Warlocks get Imbue Item and can craft their own stuff, Warlocks are really as reliant as Sorcerers on items for versatility... in fact one of the real strengths of Warlocks is their UMD ability, so not having access to scrolls, wands, and other stuff hurts them a lot.

[monkey3]

Wish. It is the best spell, because it is every spell.

Any class that has it is better than every class that does not.

[AvatarVecna]

They're also usually garbage. Fiery Burst, for example, if you reserve a 9th level spell slot for Meteor Swarm, is at will 9d4 fire damage in a 10ft burst at Close Range. In exchange for a 9th level spell slot.

9d6 fire in a 10ft radius N times per day, in exchange for not casting Meteor Swarm (which deal 4 times 6d6 fire in a 40ft radius)? According to my quick math, Fiery Burst only deals out as much damage as Meteor Swarm if you cast 42 of them in a day (and that's if all 42 of them and your Meteor Swarm didn't waste any of their AoE on empty space).

Sure, that sounds like I'm saying "it isn't worth it to spend your 9th lvl slot preparing Fiery Burst infinite times", except not only is it potentially fairly viable (assuming that your enemies are never large/numerous enough to fill MS's area), you still get to cast Meteor Swarm at the end of the day. Casting Fiery Burst 42 isn't replacing Meteor Swarm, it's doubling Meteor Swarm, letting you cast your "extra" spells multiple times throughout the day. It literally takes a large-but-finite resource and gives it a rider resource that's small-but-infinite, taking away one of the largest downsides of magic.

[Vhaidara]

9d6 fire in a 10ft radius N times per day, in exchange for not casting Meteor Swarm (which deal 4 times 6d6 fire in a 40ft radius)? According to my quick math, Fiery Burst only deals out as much damage as Meteor Swarm if you cast 42 of them in a day (and that's if all 42 of them and your Meteor Swarm didn't waste any of their AoE on empty space).

I wasn't saying meteor swarm was good. I was saying it was locking up a 9th level spell slot and, for sorcerers, a 9th level spell known.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I wasn't saying meteor swarm was good. I was saying it was locking up a 9th level spell slot and, for sorcerers, a 9th level spell known.

Locking in a 9th level spell per day for a sorcerer is chump change. At that level they should have 4, minimum. Eating a spell known is an insane cost though; it will consume between 33% and 100% of their 9th level spell selection depending on level on what is ultimately a subpar spell at best.

[Tvtyrant]

In my experience the floor difference is amazing. I have never seen a bad Warlock in play, and I have never seen a good sorcerer. People might not go for the zombie invocation, but they will certainly grab all day invisibility or flight as soon as possible. People who play Sorcerers seem to want to chuck fireballs...

[Snowbluff]

Ugh, so much misinformation.

Sorc > Warlock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reserve Feats. Reserve feats generally suck pretty bad. Fiery burst isn't an attack roll, can't be used against antimagic (unlike a certain blast essence), doesn't debuff, doesn't do as much damage, and strangles your most powerful abilities to keep it marginally useful.

As for options, you really have to look past things that specifically say "Warlock" or "Sorcerer." Warlocks can pretty much get into any PrC a sorcerer can with a feat, for example.

That being said, Sorcerer are better for the most part, right up until level 13. At thirteen, warlocks can behave like artificers and it becomes a toss up. Yes, Warlocks can make scrolls of Wish.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That being said, Sorcerer are better for the most part, right up until level 13. At thirteen, warlocks can behave like artificers and it becomes a toss up. Yes, Warlocks can make scrolls of Wish.

You mean behave like terrible artificers. They still need to burn feats, have to make a ton of rolls to activate scrolls (a 34 and a 37 for Wish, so they are not doing that until they are much closer to 17), cannot generate items early, and have to spend their own experience for everything which slows down their growth.

Imbue Item + Deceive Item are useful but the downsides to crafting are still there and don't have all the mitigation that an artificer has. Spending feats on crafting are being compared to feats that the sorcerer is spending on making his casting better and the sorcerer can still buy items himself, so the gap is definitely still extant.

[Snowbluff]

You mean behave like terrible artificers. They still need to burn feats, have to make a ton of rolls to activate scrolls (a 34 and a 37 for Wish, so they are not doing that until they are much closer to 17), cannot generate items early, and have to spend their own experience for everything which slows down their growth.

Imbue Item + Deceive Item are useful but the downsides to crafting are still there and don't have all the mitigation that an artificer has. Spending feats on crafting are being compared to feats that the sorcerer is spending on making his casting better and the sorcerer can still buy items himself, so the gap is definitely still extant.

I said "can," it's a measure of absolute capability, wish costs XP anyway, sorcerer argument assumes feats, xp as a river applies just as much to artificers as anyone, blah blah blah. Listen, I don't care, since I have a pretty clear image of how it all works. I just hate seeing bad arguments about a game I know a lot about. . (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontShootTheMessage)

[ZamielVanWeber]

I said "can," it's a measure of absolute capability, wish costs XP anyway, sorcerer argument assumes feats, xp as a river applies just as much to artificers as anyone, blah blah blah. Listen, I don't care, since I have a pretty clear image of how it all works. I just hate seeing bad arguments about a game I know a lot about. . (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontShootTheMessage)

If you have a clear image then was falsely equivocate artificer and warlock? Warlock is the second best crafter behind artificer but the gap is enormous. Also exp maybe be a river but it isn't a miracle worker. It takes until level 13 to catch up from a single level adjustment, so what do you think the constant drain of exp will do to someone who has no buffer to protect their exp? This is a bad argument for warlock. "I can play a sub-par wizard at best except without the ability to gain access to powerful PrCs early, the ACFs, or the day-to-day reliability" somehow makes you on par with a sorcerer?

[Snowbluff]

Wish. It is the best spell, because it is every spell.

Any class that has it is better than every class that does not.


If you have a clear image then was falsely equivocate artificer and warlock? Warlock is the second best crafter behind artificer but the gap is enormous. Also exp maybe be a river but it isn't a miracle worker. It takes until level 13 to catch up from a single level adjustment, so what do you think the constant drain of exp will do to someone who has no buffer to protect their exp? This is a bad argument for warlock. "I can play a sub-par wizard at best except without the ability to gain access to powerful PrCs early, the ACFs, or the day-to-day reliability" somehow makes you on par with a sorcerer?

See that post above yours? It was direct response to that.

Warlocks are 100% capable of breaking the game the same ways an Artificer can. Sure, it might cost a few more feats, but that fact that it's possible is the point. The bonus XP isn't what people aren't what people are after with the Artificer. At 13, that's 13 THOUSAND (!!!), more (by a huge margin) than the total bonus XP of the Artificer at that point, until you hit level 14. That's 142 7th level scrolls worth of XP. If an Artificer would be considered strong for 100% spell access, Warlocks are too. If the Warlock is behind a level, it's still at the same spell level, at every level, as the sorcerer.

So a Warlock has better spell access (and artificer), but needs much more time to prepare ahead, when compared to the the sorcerer. Both are perfectly capable of destroying the game.

[ZamielVanWeber]

See that post above yours? It was direct response to that.

Warlocks are 100% capable of breaking the game the same ways an Artificer can. Sure, it might cost a few more feats, but that fact that it's possible is the point. The bonus XP isn't what people aren't what people are after with the Artificer. At 13, that's 13 THOUSAND (!!!), more (by a huge margin) than the total bonus XP of the Artificer at that point, until you hit level 14. That's 142 7th level scrolls worth of XP. If an Artificer would be considered strong for 100% spell access, Warlocks are too. If the Warlock is behind a level, it's still at the same spell level, at every level, as the sorcerer.

So a Warlock has better spell access (and artificer), but needs much more time to prepare ahead, when compared to the the sorcerer. Both are perfectly capable of destroying the game.

Truenamer is capable of destroying the game sooner, so clearly it is better than wizard/sorcerer/warlock? Abusing broken things to destroy a game does not mean you are better, it means the game has an issue. If you want to hit that level of optimization most decisions beyond "break game" lose their relevancy.

[Snowbluff]

Truenamer is capable of destroying the game sooner, so clearly it is better than wizard/sorcerer/warlock? Abusing broken things to destroy a game does not mean you are better, it means the game has an issue. If you want to hit that level of optimization most decisions beyond "break game" lose their relevancy.

Choosing a couple of feats and using a class feature as intended is "breaking the game" and is a level of optimization that isn't the pits.

[Jack_Simth]

I wasn't saying meteor swarm was good. I was saying it was locking up a 9th level spell slot and, for sorcerers, a 9th level spell known.
For Sorcerers, there's a pair of feats that get around the 9th level spell known: Heighten Spell and Arcane Preparation. Prepare a lower-level spell known of the correct type (Fire, in this case; Burning Hands, perhaps?) in a 9th level spell slot, and now you're using the clause for prepared casters, rather than spontaneous ones.

Note that the same two feats lets you power other reserve feats as well - so if you have, say, Dimensional Jaunt, Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, Minor Shapeshift, and Summon Elemental, you can prepare Benign Transposition, Burning Hands, Acid Splash, Polymorph, and Summon Monster I in your 8th & 9th level spell slots... and get maximum use out of each Reserve feat, while only spending three 1st, one 0th, and one 4th spell known (downside: You do lock up multiple 9ths). You can merge some of these with higher level spells known - Fire Spiders, for instance, is a Sor/Wiz 6 Conjouration(Summoning)[Fire] spell, and thus can power both Summon Elemental and Fiery Burst out of the same (heightened to 9th) spell slot.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Warlock = less accounting work than Sorcerer. Win!

[Malroth]

Just learn "GATE" gate can be a [FIRE] or [SUMMONING] or a [TELEPORTATION] effect so can fuel firey burst and summon elemental and dimensional Jaunt all off a spell that you'll probably want to learn anyway.

[Troacctid]

Just learn "GATE" gate can be a [FIRE] or [SUMMONING] or a [TELEPORTATION] effect so can fuel firey burst and summon elemental and dimensional Jaunt all off a spell that you'll probably want to learn anyway.
Reserve feats don't work that way. The spell has to have the descriptor before you cast it, or it won't power the feat.


Sorc > Warlock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reserve Feats. Reserve feats generally suck pretty bad. Fiery burst isn't an attack roll, can't be used against antimagic (unlike a certain blast essence), doesn't debuff, doesn't do as much damage, and strangles your most powerful abilities to keep it marginally useful.

It's not so clear-cut as that. Reserve feats do have some real advantages over eldritch blast. They ignore spell resistance, they have no somatic components, and they can hit multiple opponents (resulting in a potentially higher damage output). And I wouldn't say they strangle your most powerful abilities. Unless you're working off a Ranger progression, you have plenty of spell slots—keeping one in reserve isn't a big cost.

[Snowbluff]

It's not so clear-cut as that. Reserve feats do have some real advantages over eldritch blast. They ignore spell resistance, they have no somatic components, and they can hit multiple opponents (resulting in a potentially higher damage output). And I wouldn't say they strangle your most powerful abilities. Unless you're working off a Ranger progression, you have plenty of spell slots—keeping one in reserve isn't a big cost.

No, it is. Vitriolic Blast ignores SR, deals additional damage, and can be used against an antimagic field. If you need to hit multiple targets, their are several shapes you can take, too. Eldritch Cone has much more area than Fiery Burst.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No, it is. Vitriolic Blast ignores SR, deals additional damage, and can be used against an antimagic field. If you need to hit multiple targets, their are several shapes you can take, too. Eldritch Cone has much more area than Fiery Burst.

And those shapes and essences dig into precious resources (invocations) while a reserve feat takes up a single feat slot (which may or may not be in short supply). Invocations come out ahead ultimately but the cost is not low.

Big question for me though: Vitriolic Blast isn't Conjuration: Creation with an instantaneous duration. How does it bypass AMF?

[Snowbluff]

And those shapes and essences dig into precious resources (invocations) while a reserve feat takes up a single feat slot (which may or may not be in short supply). Invocations come out ahead ultimately but the cost is not low.
Feats are more important than invocations. An invocation slot is a pittance when you get so much reliability out of it.


Big question for me though: Vitriolic Blast isn't Conjuration: Creation with an instantaneous duration. How does it bypass AMF?

It's conjured acid and has an instantaneous duration. The acid gets around AMF for the same reason it gets around spell resistance; It's not magic.

Also, [Creation] isn't and operating part of the text on AMF.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It's conjured acid and has an instantaneous duration. The acid gets around AMF for the same reason it gets around spell resistance; It's not magic.

Also, [Creation] isn't and operating part of the text on AMF.

AMF doesn't used the word "conjured," which vitriolic blast uses, but the word "conjuration." Unless vitriolic blast is considered a conjuration it wouldn't work in an Antimagic Field. The description of conjurations themselves only use the word "conjure" in regard to spells of the summoning subschool. It seems less clearcut than you are making it out to be.

[Snowbluff]

AMF doesn't used the word "conjured," which vitriolic blast uses, but the word "conjuration." Unless vitriolic blast is considered a conjuration it wouldn't work in an Antimagic Field. The description of conjurations themselves only use the word "conjure" in regard to spells of the summoning subschool. It seems less clearcut than you are making it out to be.

Conjuration is the act of conjuring, which produced conjured objects. That's just English. The described behavior matches conjurations as well. It's twice as clear cut as I am making it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Conjuration is the act of conjuring, which produced conjured objects. That's just English. The described behavior matches conjurations as well. It's twice as clear cut as I am making it.

To be extra sure I double checked with someone else and they concurred with your assessment. I wanted make sure I had a rock solid case when I presented it to my warlock party mate to pick up (via homebrew he can apply essences to psionic powers so avoided AMF is amazing).

[Snowbluff]

To be extra sure I double checked with someone else and they concurred with your assessment. I wanted make sure I had a rock solid case when I presented it to my warlock party mate to pick up (via homebrew he can apply essences to psionic powers so avoided AMF is amazing).

Cool.

It's also good for the Eldritch Theurge for the same reason your friend is trying. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Feats are more important than invocations. An invocation slot is a pittance when you get so much reliability out of it.

Invocations are more powerful than feats. The opportunity cost of losing one is much higher. And you can trade a feat for an invocation, but you can't trade an invocation for a feat.

You're also talking about greater invocations, which don't come until level 11, and not until 13 if you prioritize Chilling Tentacles over eldritch blast. At that point, it doesn't matter that reserve feats are a little weaker than eldritch blast, because everything else the Sorcerer is doing by then is waaay more powerful overall.

[Chronos]

One other difference between the two is that the warlock is more granular than the sorcerer, due to their abilities having only four "levels" instead of nine. This leads to things like Summon Swarm and Baleful Utterance, both being based on second-level spells (and in fact slightly improved over them), being available to a first-level warlock (though not both on the same warlock). On the other hand, this same granularity also means that, at 10th level, your most powerful abilities are the same as the abilities you picked up at 6th.

[nedz]

In my experience the floor difference is amazing. I have never seen a bad Warlock in play, and I have never seen a good sorcerer. People might not go for the zombie invocation, but they will certainly grab all day invisibility or flight as soon as possible. People who play Sorcerers seem to want to chuck fireballs...
I've played several Sorcerers and none of them have cast Fireball. Wizard though are terrible: every Wizard I've seen on the last decade has been fixated on casting Fireballs.

You mean behave like terrible artificers. They still need to burn feats, have to make a ton of rolls to activate scrolls (a 34 and a 37 for Wish, so they are not doing that until they are much closer to 17), cannot generate items early, and have to spend their own experience for everything which slows down their growth.

Imbue Item + Deceive Item are useful but the downsides to crafting are still there and don't have all the mitigation that an artificer has. Spending feats on crafting are being compared to feats that the sorcerer is spending on making his casting better and the sorcerer can still buy items himself, so the gap is definitely still extant.

2 level Chameleon dip nets you a floating feat — which solves this problem.

[Soranar]

It's really level dependant honestly

level 1-7 warlock is the clear winner here

he has better invocations than your spells at will (seriously, I've played both often enough to know)
he has a better chassis
he has some tricks that are just as good as yours (take 10 on umd for example)

level 8-11

sorcerer is the clear winner

your prestige class will start giving you interesting goodies
your spells become way more powerful than the warlock's abilities

level 12-17 (about equal)

warlock starts getting nifty things again (artificer like ability, interesting invocations/blast shapes that bypass serious problems) but now the sorcerer becomes the one that needs less downtime to shine

level 18-20

sorcerer becomes the clear winner with level 9 spells without bothering with umd shenanigans
your capstone abilities start to show up with prestige classes
if you have a custom runestaff, your versatility problems are over

epic

warlock suddenly becomes way better than sorcerer
epic warlock feats grant you sorcerer like spells at will
epic warlock feats grant you things you can never achieve as a sorcerer

[Chronos]

epic

warlock suddenly becomes way better than sorcerer
epic warlock feats grant you sorcerer like spells at will
epic warlock feats grant you things you can never achieve as a sorcerer
I dunno... Shades at will is REALLY nice... but on the other hand, that's also when the sorcerer is getting epic spellcasting. Plus, epic spellcasting is available immediately, but for epic invocations you probably need to wait a few levels to pick up the prerequisites.

So I guess it really just depends on what houserules/DM approval you have for epic spellcasting.

[137beth]

Warlocks are much better blasters. Sorcerers are better at...basically everything else.
Warlock has a lot of decisions made for you. The sorcerer class, on the other hand, is essentially a blank slate that you can build to be however you want.

EDIT: In my experience, at epic levels, the only things that really make a difference are items and epic spells. Magic items and wealth scale so much faster that you can pretty quickly gain the capabilities of everything nonepic characters of any class can do, but with higher numbers. Really, there are just two tiers at epic levels: epic spellcasters and commoners-with-magic-items who can emulate nonepic wizards. The lower tier is stuck with nonepic tricks, albeit able to use them more frequently. The upper tier is capable of virtually anything.

[Malroth]

Played near the optimization floor Warlock wins hands down, there's just too many ways to mess up a sorcorer if you don't know the system at all and Warlock's better chassis and smaller pool of powers known serve as a buffer that makes forming a functional combination more likely.

In the middle realms of optimization Sorcorer becomes a much more powerful character, Summonings, Save and suck anyway, Shadow magic and Polymorph all provide options that a played to tier Warlock has few answers for, the warlock can still function at this level mostly with clawlock or Meld into darkness tricks but the tier difference will be obvious.

In the Top realms of optimization it comes down to who wins the battle of contigency chess, Both classes have tricks to effectively gain of list casting and can thus be or do anything they feel like with a bit of planning so the battle will be completely unpredictable.

[Forrestfire]

Warlocks are much better blasters. Sorcerers are better at...basically everything else.
Warlock has a lot of decisions made for you. The sorcerer class, on the other hand, is essentially a blank slate that you can build to be however you want.

As someone in a game as a sorcerer with a warlock party member, I question this. Warlocks' damage is and always has been pretty terrible if they focus on blasting. Even if you get hellfire warlock; even if you have a way to mitigate the Con damage... You're capping at 17d6 damage (with items) at level 20. This is on one attack with a generally underwhelming rider, or on an AoE with a saving throw—significantly less reliable than the attack.

Now, you can make this good. Eldritch glaive or either (or both) the Eldritch Claws and Grappling Blast feats give you strong melee damage. But it's just that, melee (or lockdown and melee. Grappling Blast is amazing, if you're willing to open the book to the grappling rules every fight like my group has been lately). Warlocks will never be able to be good at ranged blasting.

A sorcerer, on the other hand, can match both the ranged blasting damage and the rider effects with a single spell known (wings of flurry; 1d6 force per caster level against enemies within 20 feet of you, and anything that fails the save is dazed) and a feat (Sculpt Spell, which makes your blast a 120ft line or some other types of areas). If he wants to excel at blasting, he can spend a couple extra feats. If he wants to go all day, he can spend even more feats (either on reserve feats or more high-cheese options, depending on what sort of table you play at). The sorcerer also has an ACF at level 5 that allows him to substitute half of all his damage into force damage when he wants to, letting him get around energy immunities with stuff like orbs, fireballs, or lightning bolts.

Sorcerers also have feats to boost save DCs easier than warlocks do (the genetic engineering feats from Ghostwalk, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, and potentially Ability Focus). They can boost CLs easier as well (various feats, some of which you'll want to take anyway like Arcane Thesis, as well as a trait potentially, PrC abilities, or even more ACFs). In addition, they have much more support from item books, and significantly more powerful and versatile spells.

Feats, though, are not a high cost for a caster. If you're focusing on blasting, you probably have one or two main spells and then can focus on other spells known to get your versatility. The feats then go towards supporting the main spells, and the rest of your spell choices can carry you. The sorcerer can afford to spend them all on blasting if he wants.

Warlocks aren't better blasters at all. You don't have to be in super high-op games for that, either, because even in low op, fireball outpaces eldritch blast, and wings of flurry, a sorcerer-only spell that's a fairly intuitive pick if you have the book, will be a workhorse that never lets you down.

[nedz]

Warlocks are much better blasters.

The Mailman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031158&postcount=28) has a message for you.

[ben-zayb]

It seems to be a one-sided win for the Sorc. While a Warlock's schtick is subpar combat effects at will, a Sorcerer has enough slots for a four-encounter adventuring day to load out above-par combat effects. Warlock and Sorc utility are so niche, with Warlock being probably more reliably available until a certain point and Sorc just being grander in scale/power/versatility. Maybe Warlock has the edge from 1-3 when sorcs are yet to get their second set of spell slots, but that's it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Don't underestimate the value of being able to take 10 on UMD checks. Warlocks can access arcane and divine spell trigger items with ease from early on. Sorcerer has some neat tricks, but warlock can access things a sorcerer simply cannot.

[ben-zayb]

Don't underestimate the value of being able to take 10 on UMD checks. Warlocks can access arcane and divine spell trigger items with ease from early on. Sorcerer has some neat tricks, but warlock can access things a sorcerer simply cannot.

Ah, yeah, I skipped straight to Invocations / Spells on my response. Deceive Item and Imbue Item are definitely abilities to take note of,

[Gale]

I'm surprised to hear the discussion isn't heavily favoring Sorcerer as the superior class; especially given that Sorcerers are considered tier 2 and Warlocks are in tier 4. Are Warlocks stronger than people give them credit for? Should they maybe be bumped up a tier?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm surprised to hear the discussion isn't heavily favoring Sorcerer as the superior class; especially given that Sorcerers are considered tier 2 and Warlocks are in tier 4. Are Warlocks stronger than people give them credit for? Should they maybe be bumped up a tier?

The tiers are correct l for the most part. Warlock, as designed, it fairly weak and not good at what it was designed for. That being said it has a lot of potential if you are willing to work with it. The biggest assets it has are Imbue and Deceive Item. While I disagree in how close it is to artificer, the fact is that these abilities make it hands down second best user and crafter of magic items. At lower levels Warlocks have more reliable use of magic items since they get their take 10 ability 9 levels before artificer (although with skill pumping it matters less but a warlock with Cha 16 or Cha 12+ plus a mast work item can consistently activate a wand or staff starting at level 4, a value that is hard to overstate.).

Once you bring magic items into play warlock gains a lot of power

[Jack_Simth]

I'm surprised to hear the discussion isn't heavily favoring Sorcerer as the superior class; especially given that Sorcerers are considered tier 2 and Warlocks are in tier 4. Are Warlocks stronger than people give them credit for? Should they maybe be bumped up a tier?
Depends on how they're played, and what level.

At 12th+ (Imbue Item), if you build one as an Artificer-lite, then they're weak artificers, which puts them in the lower bounds of tier-1.

At 4th+ (Deceive Item), if you build one as a UMD monkey, then it can act very similarly to a bard or rogue, which puts them at about tier-3.

Without making heavy use of those two routes, however, they're very much tier-4. The tier list is supposed to be build-independant, so that's where the Warlock goes.

[Chronos]

I still maintain that warlock at any given level is a little over the edge into T3. It's just that there's no single ability that puts them there. At first level, they're one of the strongest classes in the game, thanks to Summon Swarm, which can solve a lot more problems than you'd think all by itself. For the next few levels, the usefulness of Summon Swarm tapers off a bit, but then you're adding other useful invocations like Baleful Utterance to keep up. At fourth level, at a bare minimum optimization level, you can reliably use wands or staves without even needing to roll, and that carries you for a while longer. And at twelfth level you're a (weak) artificer. They're maybe in high T4 space from level 8 or 9 through 11, but for the other 16 or 17 levels, they've got something or other pulling them higher.

[Malroth]

Only reason Warlocks are Tier 4 are JaronK's personal predijuice. Compare a lv 9 warblade to a lv 9 warlock, the Warlock can fly, has better saves, hits touch, can dispel or animate undead, UMD, See invisible, Hide in plain sight and can serve as the Party's face while The Warblade does some damage, buffs himself to deal more damage and can negate some status effects that don't prevent standard actions yet is still concidered Tier 3.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Only reason Warlocks are Tier 4 are JaronK's personal predijuice. Compare a lv 9 warblade to a lv 9 warlock, the Warlock can fly, has better saves, hits touch, can dispel or animate undead, UMD, See invisible, Hide in plain sight and can serve as the Party's face while The Warblade does some damage, buffs himself to deal more damage and can negate some status effects that don't prevent standard actions yet is still concidered Tier 3.

Hits touch for near useless damage, assuming he pens SR. He needs to purchase the items for UMD so it is good, but not reliable until 12 when he can craft them himself. See Invisible is useful in certain situations granted, but the cost of taking see invisibility is huge. In fact the cost of most of the things you list is huge. That dispel? It eventually becomes near useless, but you are stuck with it. Warlocks lack diplomacy, the quintessential party face skill. Also warlocks get one critical good save and lack one critical good save. Their saves are definitely not "better."

Warblades have diplomacy and intimidate, making them better party faces. The can gain flight through a massive pile of magic items; at 9 they can easily afford the ever sexy mask of flight and have all day flight themselves. Deal damage is also the entire point of the class and they do it well. They have quite a few options for hitting things for massive damage. Also he cannot negate "Some." He can negate pretty much everything except compulsions (since they don't allow him to pick his own actions). He can theoretically negate those too if a bad command occurs. There is also the moment of the perfect mind which gives a massive improvement to your saves by letting you apply a skill to them and they can no longer fail on a natural one. Warblade is T3 (which, granted, may be over tiering it a little) because it is designed to be a combat monster and it is.

Warlock is designed to be an infinite caster-y person and ends up so far behind other casters that you wonder why they bother half the time. They can only really catch up by aping the artificer.

[nedz]

Only reason Warlocks are Tier 4 are JaronK's personal prejudiced. Compare a lv 9 warblade to a lv 9 warlock, the Warlock can fly, has better saves, hits touch, can dispel or animate undead, UMD, See invisible, Hide in plain sight and can serve as the Party's face while The Warblade does some damage, buffs himself to deal more damage and can negate some status effects that don't prevent standard actions yet is still considered Tier 3.

Nope, I don't think so. Whilst it's possible for the Warlock class to solve a wide range of issues, any given Warlock can be good at only a few of these because their choice of invocations is limited and fixed. Now UMD is a constant, but a given Warlock may be able to fly, and may be able to do those other things, but may not be able do them all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Only reason Warlocks are Tier 4 are JaronK's personal predijuice. Compare a lv 9 warblade to a lv 9 warlock, the Warlock can fly, has better saves, hits touch, can dispel or animate undead, UMD, See invisible, Hide in plain sight and can serve as the Party's face while The Warblade does some damage, buffs himself to deal more damage and can negate some status effects that don't prevent standard actions yet is still concidered Tier 3.

The question you should ask is "how many different encounters can this class solve, and to what degree?"
Sure, warlocks can do all those things (or at least a reasonable selection for any particular warlock), but they're not all that impressive at any of them and lack the splatbook support to improve to any remarkable degree. That's pretty much the definition of tier 4.

Their damage is too low to serve as a primary blaster, even with Hellfire Warlock.
Their dispels lack the versatility and improvement options of primary casters.
They get an invocation that boosts social skills, but they don't get Diplomacy as a class skill, have no particular need for Int and only 2 skill points/level.
Their ability to animate undead is worse than that of other classes because they lack the class features that wizards, clerics and dread necros get, the ability to cast Desecrate or any spells beyond basic zombie creation. Basic Zombies without any boosts are pretty pathetic.

That's why warlocks are tier 4. It doesn't matter how many cool things you can do if you're mediocre at best at all of them.

Warblades being Tier 3 is also reasonable. They're really good at melee damage, and their maneuvers add the versatility to apply that damage in most situations (as opposed to a charger, who is quite easily neutralized). Add a decent selection of skills & skill points + Int synergy to provide reasonable utility beside damage and you get a Tier 3 class.

The main difference - what makes warlocks t4 instead of t3 - is that a warlock isn't really good at anything.
The warblade may be less versatile, but it fills its main role more than adequately while skills provide mobility options and face ability. That's enough to contribute in almost any encounter in some way.

[Telonius]

A couple of thoughts, nicely jumbled thanks to caffeine withdrawal:

Is there anything that a Sorcerer can do, that a Warlock (with the appropriate scrolls) can't do?
Yeah, every character can boost UMD, but being able to craft it yourself counts for something.
Possibly, Sorcerer : Warlock :: Wizard : Artificer. Artificer can do just about everything a Wizard can, given enough downtime and hoop-jumping, with a few goodies on the side. Seems to be the same way with Warlock and Sorcerer.
What really makes me pause is how late Warlock gets Imbue Item. Massive versatility increase in a single level.

[Flickerdart]

Is there anything that a Sorcerer can do, that a Warlock (with the appropriate scrolls) can't do?
Be able to afford items.
Have useful DCs and CL on spells.
Cast without needing to rummage through your bag for the right scroll.
Apply metamagic on the fly (from feats or a rod).

[Nifft]

Is there anything that a Sorcerer can do, that a Warlock (with the appropriate scrolls) can't do? Lots of things.

At low optimization tiers, the Sorcerer can use [Draconic] or [Reserve] feats to deal damage via (Su) abilities. The Warlock is generally more subject to SR. The Sorcerer gets a Familiar, which the Warlock would have to spend a feat to obtain.

At higher optimization tiers, the Sorcerer has access to Immediate action spells like Ruin Delver's Fortune and Alter Fortune. A Warlock can equip one of those, but a wand or scroll costs a hand-slot. A Sorcerer can be a Kobold and get +1 caster level, or be even more of a Kobold and get Loredrake + Spellhoard psychosis to cast spells as a Wizard 2 to 3 levels above her character level... while gaining d8 +2 hp each level at no cost.

At cheesy optimization tiers, a Sorcerer can get her spell slots back, and therefore can throw down powers which are allegedly balanced by being limited daily uses all day -- e.g. one simple case is a Sorcerer 7 / Primal Scholar 5, who can cast spells up to level 5 all day long (via the Secret of Power class ability and the Unfettered Heroism spell, which is a level 5 spell, and thus you can get its slot back as you cast it -- though it's better as a Persistent effect, so Incantatrix 4-10 / Primal Scholar 5 is a nice combo).

[Seward]

Eldritch blast is a magic missile that can miss. Sorcerers don't run out of magic missiles after level 5 (scorching rays exceed Eldritch blast level 20 damage without metamagic at level 11, and at that level sorcerers don't run out of level 2 spells either).

A sorcerer can take spells that duplicate everything any specific warlock can do, and as a charisma based build, will also easily manage UMD checks of any difficulty from about level 10 onward (so taking 10 is not really that helpful). I never felt the need for UMD on my TK-themed sorceress because she could already deal with any conceivable challenge with her own spells plus the occasional Sor/Wiz scroll (or in later levels, casting of Limited Wish). But I adventured with other sorcerers who could UMD anything they wanted, so if you want to, you can fizzle-cast stuff immediately and reliably cast by the 11-15 range. A sorcerer will also have a bunch of spells the warlock won't have, and will have MUCH greater potential to simply kill the other guy with raw damage.


Core single target damage, without considering metamagic
L1 1d4+1 never miss vs 1d6 - advantage sorcerer until the missiles run out, then the sorcerer
has to switch to 10gp 1d6 acid flasks to keep up with the warlock.
L3 2d4+2 never miss vs 2d6 advantage Sorcerer
L5 3d4+3 never miss vs 3d6, advantage Sorcerer
L7 8d6 (scorching ray) vs 4d6 (sorcerer now double warlock)
L11 12d6 (scorching ray) vs 6d6 (still double)
And that's not even trying, using feats or noncore spells. That's two extremely common spell picks.

After level 11, a simple "empower spell" willl do twice the damage of a level 20 eldritch blast.

The problem with the warlock is that real days don't need more spell slots than sorcerers have, and in order to get infinite endurance the developers just about halved the raw power of the class compared to a sorcerer. Just about every party would rather have the full power of a sorcerer and accept that after a REALLY long day a sorcerer might run out of spell slots. (quite frankly, after level 6 or so, my sorceress didn't really have spell slot issues unless she was doing something strange like transporting an entire company of archers on tenser's disks at level 8ish, or needed to cast 24 phantom steeds in a single day at level 14ish)