Is Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition worth it?

[Drakeburn]

I've just got a new phone, an iPhone to be exact. Anyways, I've been thinking about getting some games for my iPhone, and a couple of games that come to mind is Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, and its sequel.

I've checked the review with little results as far as iPhones go, so I want to ask if I should get these two games for my iPhone? :smallconfused:

[danzibr]

I've just got a new phone, an iPhone to be exact. Anyways, I've been thinking about getting some games for my iPhone, and a couple of games that come to mind is Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, and its sequel.

I've checked the review with little results as far as iPhones go, so I want to ask if I should get these two games for my iPhone? :smallconfused:
Well, you can't mod it on your phone, but even so the vanilla Baldur's Gate is an incredible game (I have the Enhanced Edition by the way... they added a couple characters and Tales of the Swordcoast, an expansion). If you never played the original, or just feel like replaying it unmodded, go for it!

[Winthur]

replaying it unmodded

By definition (BG2-in-BG1 mechanics) EE aren't "unmodded" games.

For playing on mobile, I guess it's okay. Myself, I can't imagine playing anything on mobile other than turn-based dungeon crawlers, so I can't vouche for how responsive the mobile EE game is.

On the computer, EE ain't too great.

[Nifft]

Well, you can't mod it on your phone

You *can* mod it on the iPad.

Here's one thread discussing how: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/38883/how-to-install-scsii-on-your-ipad

I assume the iPhone version works basically the same.

I also saw a thread up about modding on Android.

[danzibr]

By definition (BG2-in-BG1 mechanics) EE aren't "unmodded" games.

For playing on mobile, I guess it's okay. Myself, I can't imagine playing anything on mobile other than turn-based dungeon crawlers, so I can't vouche for how responsive the mobile EE game is.

On the computer, EE ain't too great.
Touché. Those kits are quite imbalanced.

You *can* mod it on the iPad.

Here's one thread discussing how: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/38883/how-to-install-scsii-on-your-ipad

I assume the iPhone version works basically the same.

I also saw a thread up about modding on Android.
Huh. I had no clue. Thanks!

[GloatingSwine]

Touché. Those kits are quite imbalanced.


D&D second wasn't really meant to be balanced, and Baldur's Gate was no different in any of its incarnations.

[Winthur]

D&D second wasn't really meant to be balanced, and Baldur's Gate was no different in any of its incarnations.

There's arguably a difference between actual AD&D mechanics implemented in BG and the badly implemented 3E classes (sorcs with no casting stat) and kits from BG2.

Pretty much every kit mod I've ever encountered was unpopular or controversial because of the lack of balance. TDD added a ton of kits that are all terrible and/or bland. Morituri kit was a trainwreck.

In EE's case, they could have at least implemented the kits into BG1's base game with some kind of foresight, such as proper scaling with level. As such, the effect is pretty lazy.

[GloatingSwine]

There's arguably a difference between actual AD&D mechanics implemented in BG and the badly implemented 3E classes (sorcs with no casting stat) and kits from BG2.


Complaining that "thing is not balanced" in a game which was inherently unbalanced already before the introduction of the thing is not particularly impactful though.

BGEE did what everyone had already been doing for years with BGTrilogy/Tutu except it did it much more conveniently and slickly and with numerous quality of life improvements.

We get it, you don't like it. But you're in a small minority, your actual complaints are mostly baseless ("balance" in an unbalanced by design system, the fact that some of the new characters are "too good", the fact that the new items aren't good enough, your opinion of the writing, which is largely consistent with the existing writing, etc), and you keep stating your minority opinion as fact every time anyone asks about the game.

[Winthur]

Complaining that "thing is not balanced" in a game which was inherently unbalanced already before the introduction of the thing is not particularly impactful though.
Then why exactly are mods like the EoU component of the Shapeshifter rebalance so hotly debated and controversial?
All I've ever been claiming is that forcing you to play BG1 with BG2 rules ruins the purism of the experience, and the bonus content screws up with a lot of the item progression in BG1; the "feel" is the same, but the experience isn't. The Enhanced Edition can't even be customized to allow you to play BG1 as it was intended to be played!
If you don't care about balance, then why don't you play Baldur's Gate with Big World Project or World of Baldur's Gate (basically BG1+BG2+IWD wih all sorts of possible popular mods that include new content and stuff like Sword Coast Stratagems)? What do you care about the lack of balance inherent in mods like North Tales of the Sword Coast, a terrific mod that nevertheless has had huge balance problems and, nota bene, hasn't been adopted to the Enhanced Edition, to my knowledge? You're missing out on a whole world of exciting battles, fun NPCs and cool dungeons!
What does BG2EE bonus content give me that discontinued-for-EE mods like Tortured Souls does not if we're going to look at it only as "yay bonus content + screw balance = good"?



BGEE did what everyone had already been doing for years with BGTrilogy/Tutu except it did it much more conveniently and slickly

Unless you're playing on Linux or Mac, you're paying an additional 15$ for someone to merely run you through a WeiDu installer (Weimer was a genius and his mod installer was pretty damn baller for the time; it's pretty convenient to install and maintain small installs of BG2 still; only on bloated installs those the game cough up, but that's true for pretty much any moddable game) for you. That takes 20 minutes, Google research + the actual installation. The lackluster way EE has been implemented into the Icewind Dale series doesn't convince me to ever choose IWDEE over the original either, while BG at least had some semblance.

and with numerous quality of life improvements.
The supposed better multiplayer that didn't work on release, multiple issues with transferring characters from BG1 to BG2 that had to be resolved, and, again, some resolution mods? Great. The other few QoL improvements are, again, things that aren't, IMHO, worth the bonus $$$ Beamdog demands for their product.


We get it, you don't like it. But you're in a small minority
We've had an entire Baldur's Gate clan over here in my country. No one there advocates EE. Anti-EE opinions can be seen on many other forums. It's not unanimously great, it's controversial, it has issues.

your actual complaints are mostly baseless ("balance" in an unbalanced by design system the fact that some of the new characters are "too good", the fact that the new items aren't good enough your opinion of the writing, which is largely consistent with the existing writing, etc), and you keep stating your minority opinion as fact every time anyone asks about the game.
the system has some good stuff and some bad stuff so nobody will notice the discrepancies if we just put in items without any clue or idea on how they will impact the game! let's make haphazard design decisions and clutter the game with them! kivan and dorn totally don't look out of place next to each other!

More importantly, why the hell do you find it necessary to call me out here? I happen to be invested in these games and have a strong opinion about them. I wouldn't have felt compelled to launch into a rant and rave without your inner Beamdog shill being annoyed that I don't like the EEs. Note - I don't like them. I haven't stated "Avoid them like plague" in my first post, and there has been a post giving the green light prior to that.

Guy here asks people for opinion. I give mine. He wouldn't probably have asked the question if he was a long-time lurker of the Baldur's Gate thread or any other Baldur's Gate community. As such, he's new here. As such, I've managed to reiterate my usual opinion in just a few lines of text, providing an opinion that, in short, EE is somewhat lacking. It's in the minority in this thread (and these forums as well, I suppose), it's not outweighing anyone else's opinion and not particularly threatening. I've explicitly stated that if he wants to play BG on mobile (as he said), then I guess it's fine - it's one of the uses of BGEE I acknowledge (though I'd rather play something like top-down jRPGs instead, I'm terrible with touch screen controls and can't imagine how well Baldur's Gate playability works itself out on mobile), since there, indeed, is no competition.

None of the things you've mentioned about my backlash against EE content is even in my posts in this thread. You're the person with a vendetta. Take a chill pill.

tl;dr for OP: Don't bother about my opinion. I'm an autistic Baldur's Gate fan and 99% of what I wrote above doesn't apply to you, a poor guy who just wants to play an adaptation of a classic on a mobile device. Go buy it and have fun. It will probably work out and be pretty damn true to your and most people's expectations of a core Baldur's Gate experience. The best advice I can give you is to look up someone playing BGEE on a mobile device and check if you wouldn't find that cumbersome - I'm bad at touchscreens, maybe you're not. Otherwise, it's roughly the same game with a few issues that mostly spark my autism.

[Kish]

(To the thread question) Definitely not. Always take the original. You can get it from--

--oh. Phone.

Well, better nonoptional-mods Baldur's Gate than none at all. If I had a smartphone, I'd certainly get it.

(If you couldn't tell, I agree with Winthur.)

[Calemyr]

I have both games (and Icewind Dale EE) on my phone. As always, I like the EE games. I like the built in ease of use mods, the kits (balanced or not is immaterial because balance was never a factor to begin with).

The games (other than IWD) are cheaper on the phone because two of the new characters are purchased separately (purchase them and the game costs the same on the phone as the PC). I believe their stated reason for this was respect for tablets and phones with much more limited storage capacity - no need to put the extra maps and voice acting into the game unless you want it, yeah?

You can mod the game as long as you the mod doesn't require a change to the dialog.tlk file. It can be tricky, though. The primary trick is that the game uses the portrait folder like an override folder, so any override-only mods can be dropped in the portrait folder and they're in the game. This includes a good chunk of the ease-of-use mods and such - basically, anything that doesn't require a change in the text works this way. Anything that adds or alters names or descriptions or dialogue won't work, but mods that make people not leave due to reputation scores or allow you to learn as many spells as you like with 100% chance regardless of your INT score... those work.

The EE game itself is either a great extension of the game or a pointless tack-on depending on what you're looking for. Personally, I love banter and interjections and personal plot. The new characters have this in spades, providing BG2 style companions in BG1. You might complain about them being Mary Sues (one of them actually belonged to the same clan as a Bhaalspawn, after all), or you might find them a welcome alternative to extremely dull allies (in BG1) or tried and true to the point of tedium (in BG2).

Short version: The phone implementation of the game is quite good, EE itself is either a welcome addition or an overpriced and underwhelming expansion, and you are capable of limited modding if you can access the game's folders on your phone.

[Cheesegear]

There's arguably a difference between actual AD&D mechanics implemented in BG and the badly implemented 3E classes (sorcs with no casting stat) and kits from BG2.
[...]
In EE's case, they could have at least implemented the kits into BG1's base game with some kind of foresight, such as proper scaling with level. As such, the effect is pretty lazy.

QFT.
I solo'd the game with an Archer (Ranger), and it was literally the easiest (i.e; Boring) game I ever played. Yep. Having a solo character, with the right kit, was easier than having an optimised party of 4 or 5. Point and click. Everyone dies.
Playing the game 'properly', having CHARNAME as an Inquisitor was basically easy mode. Even without the best NPCs.
Wizard Slayers weren't strong, but then the EE 'fixed' it so that the 10% spell failure now procs on ranged attacks. Making Wizard Slayers almost as strong as Archers. Except that Archers can wear Gauntlets of Everyone Dies.

Priests of Helm get a +4 Longsword, and 3 attacks per round, from Level 1. In BG2, this isn't anything. A Longsword +4 (that doesn't even do +4 Damage), isn't special, and any Warrior classes in your party can have 3 attacks per round with their eyes closed and one hand behind their back. In BG1? Starting from Level 1? Yes. I will take 3 attacks per round with +4 To Hit. Good job, Beamdog! You did it!

Sorcerers are stupid in BG1. Wizards are balanced 'cause scrolls are hard to find and/or the game is linear and only gives you spells when it chooses to do so (not including runs where you beeline for scrolls of Fireball). Sorcerers? Nope. Just have all the best spells you want, beelining isn't even required. Just have everything you need.

BG2-style Two-Weapon Fighting also breaks the game.


EE itself is either a welcome addition, or an overpriced and underwhelming expansion...

Nailed it.

[danzibr]

QFT.
I solo'd the game with an Archer (Ranger), and it was literally the easiest (i.e; Boring) game I ever played. Yep. Having a solo character, with the right kit, was easier than having an optimised party of 4 or 5. Point and click. Everyone dies.
Playing the game 'properly', having CHARNAME as an Inquisitor was basically easy mode. Even without the best NPCs.
Wizard Slayers weren't strong, but then the EE 'fixed' it so that the 10% spell failure now procs on ranged attacks. Making Wizard Slayers almost as strong as Archers. Except that Archers can wear Gauntlets of Everyone Dies.

Priests of Helm get a +4 Longsword, and 3 attacks per round, from Level 1. In BG2, this isn't anything. A Longsword +4 (that doesn't even do +4 Damage), isn't special, and any Warrior classes in your party can have 3 attacks per round with their eyes closed and one hand behind their back. In BG1? Starting from Level 1? Yes. I will take 3 attacks per round with +4 To Hit. Good job, Beamdog! You did it!

Sorcerers are stupid in BG1. Wizards are balanced 'cause scrolls are hard to find and/or the game is linear and only gives you spells when it chooses to do so (not including runs where you beeline for scrolls of Fireball). Sorcerers? Nope. Just have all the best spells you want, beelining isn't even required. Just have everything you need.

BG2-style Two-Weapon Fighting also breaks the game.
If anything, this post makes me want to (re)play it.

[Inarius]

Honestly, if you're looking to get it on your phone its a good buy. Its also a pretty good buy on PC since you can usually pick it up for cheap during steam sales which should be starting up again soon.

I think the big issue on whether people like it or not tends to be on how they look at the first game. If you see it as its own standalone adventure you're probably more inclined to dislike the additions the EE makes. When you consider the game to be part of the bigger whole though the changes are actually pretty welcome because they allow you to have a continuation of a character from BG1 to ToB.

Kits always seem to get brought up and I never really see the issue. They weren't balanced in BG2, and its not like anyone is going to twist your arm to play one of the overpowered kits in BG1 if you don't want to. The other changes I can understand a bit better as being something to dislike but tweaking them to your liking using EE keeper or the console command isn't really any harder than modding up a vanilla game to how you like it.

[Cheesegear]

When you consider the game to be part of the bigger whole though the changes are actually pretty welcome because they allow you to have a continuation of a character from BG1 to ToB.

You can do that anyway. Exporting Characters is a thing.


Kits always seem to get brought up and I never really see the issue. They weren't balanced in BG2

What are you comparing balance to? They weren't balanced against each other, but they were balanced to the game.

Kits are not balanced to BG1. As I said, you start the game in BG1 at Level 1, with enemies to match - Gibberlings and Xvarts. A Priest of Helm essentially starts the game (at Level 1) with a Longsword +4 with 3 attacks per round. At Level 1, against Gibberlings and Xvarts? That is a huge decrease in difficulty. In BG2, it's not anything, because in BG2 everyone is over Level 7 and so the enemies have more than 6 HPs and don't die in a single hit, and a Longsword +4 is easily replaceable by BG2 items. Unlike BG1 where there are no +4 weapons to be found, and the thing you start with at Level 1 is better than almost anything that you'll find in the game.


and its not like anyone is going to twist your arm to play one of the overpowered kits in BG1 if you don't want to.

For people who have played the game before? Sure. But a good portion of the EE's audience are new players who weren't around for the original. Those people are going to play the game - new - pick a Kit they like and go. Oh look, you (accidentally) picked the right wrong Kit, and now BG1 is super easy. Nobody 'twisted your arm' at all, but you saw The Hunger Games one time, saw a Kit that was called 'Archer', and then you walked through the game like it was nothing... Although I suppose that there are people who don't actually like their games to be challenging.

If I play BG1, now. I don't use Kits and I don't use Sorcerers - or Monks or Barbarians but nobody cares about those - and I don't use Two-Weapon Fighting. But, that's only because I've played the original, and the EE, and spotted the rampant differences in difficulty. New players, don't see that.

[Cespenar]

Kits are not balanced to BG1. As I said, you start the game in BG1 at Level 1, with enemies to match - Gibberlings and Xvarts. A Priest of Helm essentially starts the game (at Level 1) with a Longsword +4 with 3 attacks per round. At Level 1, against Gibberlings and Xvarts? That is a huge decrease in difficulty. In BG2, it's not anything, because in BG2 everyone is over Level 7 and so the enemies have more than 6 HPs and don't die in a single hit, and a Longsword +4 is easily replaceable by BG2 items. Unlike BG1 where there are no +4 weapons to be found, and the thing you start with at Level 1 is better than almost anything that you'll find in the game.

Except that a newcomer wouldn't think of solo'ing, which unbalances the game with many classes anyway. Also, you apparently know BG and D&D, so you know how to optimize and all that. I don't suppose a newcomer would fare as well. How it'll probably go is that they pick Archer and get NPCs like Montaron and Xzar, run into that mage in front of the Friendly Arm Inn and still get their whole party Horror'd and then cut down by magic missiles.

[Cheesegear]

Except that a newcomer wouldn't think of solo'ing

I understand. But even if you don't solo, each of these classes/kits, for various reasons, make the game significantly easier;
Dwarven Defender, Ranger*/Archer, all three Paladin Kits (yes, really), Priest of Helm, Shapeshifter, Blade*, Skald, Wild Mage, Sorcerer and Blackguard.
*Two-Weapon Fighting isn't designed for BG1, and Rangers were already one of the better classes in BG1 to begin with.

Some of those classes are decidedly 'meh' (or even straight bad) in BG2. But, BG1 is a different beast.

[GloatingSwine]

Kits are not balanced to BG1. As I said, you start the game in BG1 at Level 1, with enemies to match - Gibberlings and Xvarts. A Priest of Helm essentially starts the game (at Level 1) with a Longsword +4 with 3 attacks per round. At Level 1, against Gibberlings and Xvarts? That is a huge decrease in difficulty. In BG2, it's not anything, because in BG2 everyone is over Level 7 and so the enemies have more than 6 HPs and don't die in a single hit, and a Longsword +4 is easily replaceable by BG2 items. Unlike BG1 where there are no +4 weapons to be found, and the thing you start with at Level 1 is better than almost anything that you'll find in the game.


You can get that +4 longsword for one round once a day at level 1. So unless you rest between every fight it's not actually massively balance relevant. Hooray you killed two gibberlings. Which you would have trivially killed without it. Go you.

And if you want to take on harder opponents like ankhegs with your level 1 priest of anything then the Command spell to knock them over and disable their attacks and make your party's hit is far better cheese than one +4 longsword.

And if you do rest between every fight then you can be any specialist mage that can cast sleep twice a day and turn off all those low level encounters completely because all their saves suck.

And that's all with things that were in the base game.

BG1 wasn't balanced anyway, not even against its own environment. Because it was D&D second which was never intended to be balanced. You say that "new person could pick archer and render game trivial", but that new person could pick a control mage and also render the game trivial because the control spells are all really powerful in low levels.

[Cespenar]

Basically, the post above me says it.

Apart from that, I don't know. As an avid player of BG2 and all its Weidu mods, BGEE was still a good game for me. It's smooth, relatively bugless, you don't have to hunt for various mods across the net, and it introduces almost BG2-tier characters to an otherwise rather bland (writing-wise) game. The last one is reason alone for getting EE, because fanmade NPC mods often suck with the intensity of a black hole.

[GungHo]

TIL you can play Baldur's Gate on a damn phone.

For all you BTTF guys whining you haven't got your hoverboard or T-Rex holograms yet... you can play Baldur's Gate on a damn phone. So shaddup.

[Winthur]

You can get that +4 longsword for one round once a day at level 1. So unless you rest between every fight it's not actually massively balance relevant. Hooray you got three highly accurate hits on the first serious enemies such as Tarnesh the mage, and at least until level 5 your spell is the best and most reliable way of dealing direct DPS as a spellcaster (not counting wands and consumables)

Fixed. The spell scales fantastically in Baldur's Gate 1, it has just the right amount of rounds for exactly where you need them. Add to that the True Seeing spell as an at-will which instantly nullifies the entire Divination school for good measure. At no drawback. And then think of shenanigans such as taking 2 levels of Priest of Helm just to boost your run-of-the-mill Fighter.


And if you do rest between every fight then you can be any specialist mage that can cast sleep twice a day and turn off all those low level encounters completely because all their saves suck.
Or you can be said priest of Helm, hire a mage (preferrably Edwin, if we're so Sleep-centric), put all your enemies to sleep and then utterly murder them with the Cleric special ability. And if you're playing solo, your argument there holds no water.


And if you want to take on harder opponents like ankhegs with your level 1 priest of anything then the Command spell to knock them over and disable their attacks and make your party's hit is far better cheese than one +4 longsword.
Strats that rely on save/load abuse (Ankhegs can be disabled and disposed of like that, easily. The problem is, at level 1, doing so without preparation forces you to trade projectiles with one (and an Ankheg's projectile, upon hitting, pretty much instakills a level 1 character) and also to rely on the fickle saving throw system), are not everyone's cup of tea. If you want to cheese the game, you're way better off going basilisk-hunting with Korax.


BG1 wasn't balanced anyway, not even against its own environment. Because it was D&D second which was never intended to be balanced.
How do you know of this intention? Is there a disclaimer in any of the D&D books which comes with a tier list of all character classes? Even if mage's late game power compared to fighter was intended, was all sorts of early game broken cheese with polymorph spells that aren't obvious to everyone but optimizers also intended?

Balance doesn't have to mean everything is the same and even the so-called perfectly balanced games like chess or Starcraft have balance issues. I am not asking for the game to be perfectly fair for everyone because that's frankly boring if everyone can do the same thing in the same way; what I'm asking for is for the design to be consistent.

Oh sure, figuring out what is good and what is not is a pretty core thing in RPGs. Even then, introducing a massive load of classes that have at-will abilities stronger than the entire spell repertoire of the game and then proposing that they're just different facets of the same gem is just funny. Kits were made for BG2 in mind. Sure, there are some kits that have virtually no disadvantages in comparison to their advantages and vice versa, but also with nothing nearly as ridiculous.
I would have liked BGEE so much more if I had the option of preserving the BG1 rules, or customizing them, and keeping stuff like the better engine, faster movement, and polished AI. That would allow me to have a core vanilla experience while still enjoying the challenge and benefits from mods such as Sword Coast Stratagems. But nope, it's just a lazy cash-in instead.


You say that "new person could pick archer and render game trivial", but that new person could pick a control mage and also render the game trivial because the control spells are all really powerful in low levels.
There aren't very many BG2 kits that don't make a joke out of BG1 (or screw you over the other way, like the kensai). Cheesing Sirines (and, virtually, every mage encounter) with a berserker? Check. High level summons out of the wazoo as a Totemic Druid? Check. Archer cheese mentioned above? Check. Beastmaster letting you start off with way, way more HP and summon lots of cannon fodder? Check. Inquisitor rendering every mage encounter in the game a joke? Check. Bard kits with a song that actually does something (and happens to either boost everyone across the board with an at-will ability, way above the usual buffs available in BG1, or give you an, again, at-will save-or-suck AoE spell)? Check.

Beamdog, apparently, didn't think that balance was utterly unimportant, because the one NPC they knew was destined to suck (Rasaad, a Monk in the low-level BG1 environment), they outfitted with a ton of special items and he is still completely underwhelming despite this band-aid they applied.

And again, all of those kits look really out of place in this game. Makes you really wonder why is Kivan, the archer guy of BG1, doesn't have an archer kit. Makes you also wonder why Beamdog decided to make him leave the party if you hire him too early when that never happened in the original, and other stuff like that.

Lots and lots of what Beamdog did with this game comes from a lack of understanding of the source material. As such, a lot of people don't like the Beamdog-only content. And when that's left out, all you have left is a self-installing TuTu/BGT/Fixpack installation. Which, for the OP, is also the only way to play Baldur's Gate on mobile. Which means his question has been resolved and now we've just resorted to flinging crap.


The last one is reason alone for getting EE, because fanmade NPC mods often suck with the intensity of a black hole.
True! I really hated that mod which gives you a guy with a stand-out race and class, superstrong stats across the board, an eyerolling bisexual romance plot, his own items and being cousins with a demigod villain. Good thing official game doesn't have that.

[Calemyr]

Basically, the post above me says it.

Apart from that, I don't know. As an avid player of BG2 and all its Weidu mods, BGEE was still a good game for me. It's smooth, relatively bugless, you don't have to hunt for various mods across the net, and it introduces almost BG2-tier characters to an otherwise rather bland (writing-wise) game. The last one is reason alone for getting EE, because fanmade NPC mods often suck with the intensity of a black hole.

It's been argued that the EE characters aren't much more than fanmade mods themselves. They're not entirely wrong, of course. They have too large a scope for the personal problems of BG1 (Dorn is an Il-Khan (though not related to Gromnir beyond being exiled from the same clan), Neera has actively drawn the attention of the Red Wizards (rather than the passive interest Dynaheir earns by sending a rookie like Edwin after her), and Baeloth is, well, Baeloth). Rasaad covers the right tone (kill the man that killed my brother), but gets a grandiose map to finish it in that puts the gnoll stronghold to shame. Character strength is a bit wonky to. Rasaad is something of a joke (more so than a monk should be at that level due to good but not great stats), Neera has crap strength and constitution but insists on using a staff until you can put a point in slings, and Dorn is an illegal race/class combo with perfect (and legal) strength and decent at best Dex and no Con bonus.

That said, they're infinitely more interesting than anyone from the original game and pretty solid all around if you use them right, and most of the complaints against them can be leveled effectively at vanilla characters (Oh, you just happened to lose your wife to a guy I have to hunt? Oh, the mage that petrified you just happens to be the one I need to confront to move the plot forward?). They're also well voice acted (Neera can grate on some ears, of course) and pretty well written. Also, you can get some interesting loot off their missions - particularly Dorn, who can net you some Elven Chain (cast and sneak while wearing it) once you can enter Baldur's Gate.

In BG2, they're not really much different from anyone else. Their scopes continue to escalate (to absurd levels in ToB for some), but they aren't as glaringly out of line as in BG1. The new characters, Hexxat and Wilson, are definitely exceptions to the game, both with mechanics you don't find anywhere else, but that does make them a breath of fresh air in a game that's been played and replayed so very often.


TIL you can play Baldur's Gate on a damn phone.

For all you BTTF guys whining you haven't got your hoverboard or T-Rex holograms yet... you can play Baldur's Gate on a damn phone. So shaddup.

Preach it.


True! I really hated that mod which gives you a guy with a stand-out race and class, superstrong stats across the board, an eyerolling bisexual romance plot, his own items and being cousins with a demigod villain. Good thing official game doesn't have that.

Ah, the power of facetious sarcasm. Dorn's relationship with Gromnir seem limited (from the dialogue I've seen) to simply being both exiles from the same clan, with Gromnir being too brutal for even Dorn's taste). His stats also are just pretty good across the board. 19 Str is legal for an orc, 16 Dex is decent but not great, 14 Con offers no bonus, 10 Int is irrelevant, 15 Wis is irrelevant, and 16 Cha makes him a decent but not great face for Team Evil, but is otherwise irrelevant. That's hardly superstrong, but still decent enough to merit a slot. Coran and Kagain cheat a lot more effectively than he does, partly because he isn't cheating. Also, Edwin would like to talk to you about having custom items, and most everyone has a sneaky little bonus ability tacked on that the rules don't allow for. That means you, Tiax. Put away that ghoul right now. Yes, yes, one day, but for now just behave yourself for ten minutes, okay?

I will grant the romance plot is not very pleasing, but given the new obsession with orientation equality, you were going to get at least one bi romance shoe-horned in. and it is at least in keeping with his nature as being primal and reactionary. Rasaad's is pretty darn good, I think. It lets the Scion play a range of roles from sincere shoulder to wise and witty cheer maker. Neera has a bit of an Aerie "woe is me" edge to her sometimes, but she's generally cheerful and fun albeit terrified of emotional commitment (wild magic always harms or scares off loved ones eventually).

I have to ask, though: outside of 19 Str, what does Dorn's race get him?


There aren't very many BG2 kits that don't make a joke out of BG1 (or screw you over the other way, like the kensai). Cheesing Sirines (and, virtually, every mage encounter) with a berserker? Check. High level summons out of the wazoo as a Totemic Druid? Check. Archer cheese mentioned above? Check. Beastmaster letting you start off with way, way more HP and summon lots of cannon fodder? Check. Inquisitor rendering every mage encounter in the game a joke? Check. Bard kits with a song that actually does something (and happens to either boost everyone across the board with an at-will ability, way above the usual buffs available in BG1, or give you an, again, at-will save-or-suck AoE spell)? Check.

Beamdog, apparently, didn't think that balance was utterly unimportant, because the one NPC they knew was destined to suck (Rasaad, a Monk in the low-level BG1 environment), they outfitted with a ton of special items and he is still completely underwhelming despite this band-aid they applied.

And again, all of those kits look really out of place in this game. Makes you really wonder why is Kivan, the archer guy of BG1, doesn't have an archer kit. Makes you also wonder why Beamdog decided to make him leave the party if you hire him too early when that never happened in the original, and other stuff like that.

Lots and lots of what Beamdog did with this game comes from a lack of understanding of the source material. As such, a lot of people don't like the Beamdog-only content. And when that's left out, all you have left is a self-installing TuTu/BGT/Fixpack installation. Which, for the OP, is also the only way to play Baldur's Gate on mobile. Which means his question has been resolved and now we've just resorted to flinging crap.

You do realize, of course, that the group that made the EE games is largely made up of the same people who made the original games, yes? You also know that they weren't allowed to do JACK to the existing content (such as making Kivan an Archer). Also, Kivan was ALWAYS supposed to have a timer on him, it was a bug that kept it from working. However, the time on the clock depended on the chapter you recruited him. Giving you more time if you recruit him early, far more than Minsc does, but not nearly enough time to gad about and fiddle with every quest before you do so.

I'm sure you're also well aware of the fact that, in BG1, the priest of Helm's sword ability is a once per day thing for the most part. Meaning that it's great for the one encounter you use it in, but most of the time you're left with a pretty generic cleric. Also, if we're going to start including multiple player created characters into the party, game balance has already been shot to hell so bad it's part of the Blood War.

Where are you getting the "way, way more HP" statement? Summon familiar? 12 HP is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but as a 1d10 warrior class with full potential con bonus, I think maybe one way is sufficient. Unless, of course, you really, really suck when it comes to rolling HP.

In a nutshell, however, Beamdog tried to make the game run the way it's actually played. They fixed a lot of bugs (including a good few I really miss, like the scroll glitch or blinding ankhegs), added in popular features from mods, and improved the gameplay as much as they could within the confines of their authority. They implemented BG2 rules in BG1 the same way that every mod out there does, because they don't have the right to rebalance any of the established rules, just fix things that weren't working right to begin with. Note that the EE kits are rather more balanced then the BG2 ones, to the point that many of them are dismissed as "nerfed to hell" compared to what they couldn't change.

[danzibr]

True! I really hated that mod which gives you a guy with a stand-out race and class, superstrong stats across the board, an eyerolling bisexual romance plot, his own items and being cousins with a demigod villain. Good thing official game doesn't have that.
Talking about Soulafein?

How'd Shapeshifter end up in EE anyway? I'd check now but filter.

[LibraryOgre]

$20 on a proper computer, $10 on a phone.

I'd say that if you wind up spending 20 hours enjoying it, it's worth it, and I think you will.

[GloatingSwine]

I have to ask, though: outside of 19 Str, what does Dorn's race get him?


Certainly not a higher than legal stat or proficiency like that terrible new character, what was his name? Oh yes, Coran. Who was in the base game.

Or a class feature like Berzerk which it is so terrible that players can now do to Sirines (y'know, like that other character that only just got introduced, Minsc).

(Worth noting as well that that "+4 longsword" that the cleric of helm gets isn't a +4 longsword, it's a bastard sword with a +4 to hit bonus, no bonus damage and won't damage the only thing in BG1 that actually requires a +4 weapon).

All Dorn gets is the undying hatred of Winthur for being too much like a viable character, unlike Rasaad, who gets the undying hatred of Winthur for not being enough like a viable character.

[Calemyr]

Talking about Soulafein?

How'd Shapeshifter end up in EE anyway? I'd check now but filter.

He's referring, no doubt, to Dorn.

The rules for Shapeshifter haven't changed, to my knowledge, which is both a good and bad thing. All the bonuses are still replacing rather than additive. You get 1 change at level 1, which is pretty awesome, honestly since it has no duration. It's probably a great kit for BG1, but still sucks for ToB, since experience charts and the hideously under-performing Greater Werewolf

It's kinda frustrating that this kit is so badly bugged (you don't get half the things a werewolf should get, and the replacing bonuses is a detriment more often than a boon) is the one completely ignored by Beamdog. It should have been open season to fix it.

[Winthur]

Certainly not a higher than legal stat or proficiency like that terrible new character, what was his name? Oh yes, Coran. Who was in the base game.
And also available from the mid-late game, where it's clear that the design policy of the NPCs in this game, while rather haphazard, was to plant them in various places and give the latter ones some lee-way. It's the mid-late-game NPCs that first show up with special powers. It's logical that, with this model, an NPC you encounter later down the road is, feasibly, a straight upgrade over the early lackeys - or at least has some special stuff going for them.

Compare that to Dorn, a guy with excellent stats across the board that offers to join up very early, is a no-brainer choice for an evil party, starts with a magical sword in a game where magic items are supposed to be a priority to acquire due to their unbreakable status and other goodies, and you've got yourself a guy that's just out of place. We're in BG1, not in BG2.

Besides, in a game where NPCs don't talk much, having them singled out with neat, small niches is pretty cool, and being able to recognize them for their strengths and make the choice of whether they're worth putting into your party in exchange for older party members is a good part of playing an RPG and learning to manage a party, especially since by the time Coran rolls around, yes, he's the best - but you've also, probably, had guys that do what he does (Khalid, Minsc and Kivan can easily be his earlier alternatives).

Dorn is just a fanfiction self-insert of the author that the author pretty much makes sure you can't miss and who immediately is a strong contender for star of the show. As such, I regard him in as much esteem as any other external NPC not designed by Bioware.

Also, speaking of EE NPCs: Shar-Teel, a very viable character in vanilla BG1, becomes utter trash in BGEE that requires rigorous levelling up because her stat proficiencies are wasteful and don't fit the character, whereas originally she was a very versatile character and a potent Thief candidate. I'd rather take her over Dorn any day, but she isn't given the same options as in BG1.

Seriously - BG1 NPCs might not be interesting in terms of dialogue or banter, but bad banter (as with the EE NPCs) gets very repetitive very soon (each of the EE NPCs is very interrupting), whereas most of the BG1 NPCs can be nicely tinkered with in interesting ways (all sorts of guys you can dual-class, subtle special abilities which reward smart use; Tiax's Ghast and multiclass and Quayle's multiclass are woefully underlooked), and there's plenty of them in different varieties. Xan's Moonblade, Shar-Teel's ties to Angelo and overall attitude all make for a more interesting, "tell your own story" experience, than listening to a boring half-orc hitting on you and acting edgy.


Or a class feature like Berzerk which it is so terrible that players can now do to Sirines (y'know, like that other character that only just got introduced, Minsc).
Minsc's Berserk forces the player to lose control of Minsc. The Berserker rage, as implemented in BG2, grants immunities and doesn't force you to lose control. With Minsc, you actually have to take contingencies against things like the Sirines having Arrows of Biting (poison damage), because even if you give him a ranged weapon you can't really predict what he will do, making such a strat much less reliable. Have fun hitting something reliably with a low-level uncontrollable character and with no way to chug antidotes, health potions, or a contigency invisibility potion, in the meantime. A Berserker can easily just flash himself to a Sirine, bait out their Dire Charm spells, and retreat after Improved Invisibility either expires, is detected, or he'll just go bumrushing. Minsc can just get in there and hope for the best.


(Worth noting as well that that "+4 longsword" that the cleric of helm gets isn't a +4 longsword, it's a bastard sword with a +4 to hit bonus, no bonus damage and won't damage the only thing in BG1 that actually requires a +4 weapon).
Dealing 2d4+STR melee damage with 3 attacks per round in a much more reliable way than any other low level character, on top of being achievable with an at-will special ability is pretty crazy.
Compare it to a spell like Chill Touch, a very viable direct damage spell for early game, but also situational. This is a conjurable weapon that's 1d2+1d8 and also gives a +4 to hit bonus. It's also in the hands of a much weaker character who needs to very carefully pick his battles and who can't perform 3 attacks per round with it. And Chill Touch also destroys inventories if it deals the killing blow, limiting its use.

If you are a solo Cleric, Command + Seeking Sword is enough to seriously murder somebody before he has a chance to get dangerous.

And also, since I have a misfortune of taking you seriously, I did research to make sure I'm not propagating bullcrap, because I did that the last time when I went on sperging about Intelligence rules in AD&D, in the original BG thread. And guess what, someone reported that in EE, they artificially increased the length of that spell so that it's useful for more than one round. (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/19978/seeking-sword-duration-length) 1 turn of 3 APR on a single-classed Cleric is a cha-ching. If the sword is also a backstab-viable weapon (I can't check, so it's a broad assumption), cha-ching for the Priest of Helm->Thief dual-class cheese.


All Dorn gets is the undying hatred of Winthur for being too much like a viable character, unlike Rasaad, who gets the undying hatred of Winthur for not being enough like a viable character.
Reminder that this thread would not have escalated to such a flamewar if you didn't decide that you have a problem with me even though I merely, calmly, stated my opinion and didn't elaborate on it much and didn't point out any of the things you personally don't like about me.
Reminder that, if you're going to call on my previous statements regarding these NPCs, you shouldn't invent strawmen to beat down.

[Kish]

Certainly not a higher than legal stat or proficiency like that terrible new character, what was his name? Oh yes, Coran. Who was in the base game.

Or a class feature like Berzerk which it is so terrible that players can now do to Sirines (y'know, like that other character that only just got introduced, Minsc).
Actually, Minsc's Berserk is and has always been hugely inferior to the Berserker kit ability. But, as Winthur said, the thread-starting question has been answered a while ago, so don't let me interfere with throwing crap at him.

[Nifft]

I haven't played BG2:EE much.

Neera is a romance option, but she's another elf.

Are there any female non-elves who are romance options?

Nothing against elves, of course, just so long as they act human in public. Some of my best friends are elves!

[danzibr]

Oh Dorn huh? I never used him.

Now Soulafein... that was some absurd fan made stuff. Lots of opness. I mean I liked it but it was def crazy.

[Calemyr]

I haven't played BG2:EE much.

Neera is a romance option, but she's another elf.

Are there any female non-elves who are romance options?

Nothing against elves, of course, just so long as they act human in public. Some of my best friends are elves!

Neera: Half-elf, thank you!

But, no. The game offers nothing else for the straight guy. Dorn is an option, of course, while the ladies get Dorn, Rasaad, and Hexxat.

Of course, there are more than a few good mods if you're playing on the PC. I particularly like Sheena Half-Dragon (though she's vanished from the internet, sadly), J Compton's DeArnise Romance (sadly not including a ToB expansion), and Tyris Flare (bringing the barbarian of Golden Axe fame into the game). Tyris is particularly cool, I think. A nice combination of power, badass, and vulnerability (she's literally pulled from the Golden Axe setting, moments before the final assault on the big bad). Naturally, these are all good for the vanilla game as well as EE.

Neera is a pretty good one, though. She's got issues, but she's not asking you to solve them (other than "Hey, you're an adventurer, do this!" tasks). She's fun and light hearted, but struggles with isolation because of her wild magic. The kind of pain she copes with is pretty impressive, given how little she whines in comparison to the original three. Wild magic is a pain in the ass (keep multiple saves when using her), but she gets items to help her cope and it can be very useful if handled right. Wild Mage has its faults, but it's also something of the ultimate Batman wizard. Combine her with a generalist mage (like Imoen) and a sorcerer (like Baeloth) and you've got your magic sorted on all fronts.


Oh Dorn huh? I never used him.

Now Soulafein... that was some absurd fan made stuff. Lots of opness. I mean I liked it but it was def crazy.

Personally, I find Dorn an interesting character. In BG1, he's basically an evil Count of Monte Cristo. In BG2, he's a very good evil straight man (as in, he is amusingly exasperated with a witty Scion). In ToB, his mission goes beyond the impossible by raiding heaven itself to get his name (and yours, by association) off the naughty list.

In combat, Dorn is okay. He's basically an evil Minsc - high power, rather poor defense, but where Minsc boasts absurd versatility, Dorn just tacks on more offense.

[GloatingSwine]

Compare that to Dorn, a guy with excellent stats across the board that offers to join up very early, is a no-brainer choice for an evil party, starts with a magical sword in a game where magic items are supposed to be a priority to acquire due to their unbreakable status and other goodies, and you've got yourself a guy that's just out of place. We're in BG1, not in BG2.


What, you mean like Edwin, who has decent stats for what you need a mage to do and special items that make him even better at maging. Who is so much of a special snowflake character for Bioware that they're still referencing him in games a decade later?

And is also an early game recruit?

Like that you mean?


Minsc's Berserk forces the player to lose control of Minsc. The Berserker rage, as implemented in BG2, grants immunities and doesn't force you to lose control. With Minsc, you actually have to take contingencies against things like the Sirines having Arrows of Biting (poison damage), because even if you give him a ranged weapon you can't really predict what he will do, making such a strat much less reliable. Have fun hitting something reliably with a low-level uncontrollable character and with no way to chug antidotes, health potions, or a contigency invisibility potion, in the meantime. A Berserker can easily just flash himself to a Sirine, bait out their Dire Charm spells, and retreat after Improved Invisibility either expires, is detected, or he'll just go bumrushing. Minsc can just get in there and hope for the best.

But he can soak the dire charms and then you can finish the job with your ranged weapons, also there are only about four Sirine encounters and they're all optional.


Dealing 2d4+STR melee damage with 3 attacks per round in a much more reliable way than any other low level character, on top of being achievable with an at-will special ability is pretty crazy.
Compare it to a spell like Chill Touch, a very viable direct damage spell for early game, but also situational. This is a conjurable weapon that's 1d2+1d8 and also gives a +4 to hit bonus. It's also in the hands of a much weaker character who needs to very carefully pick his battles and who can't perform 3 attacks per round with it. And Chill Touch also destroys inventories if it deals the killing blow, limiting its use.

Right, but you could just use that spell slot to functionally turn the encounter off instead and then it really doesn't matter how many +4s you have because the enemy are reduced to a triviality.


Reminder that, if you're going to call on my previous statements regarding these NPCs, you shouldn't invent strawmen to beat down.


It doesn't take strawmen to point out how inconsistent your criticisms are.

[Winthur]

What, you mean like Edwin, who has decent stats for what you need a mage to do and special items that make him even better at maging. Who is so much of a special snowflake character for Bioware that they're still referencing him in games a decade later?

And is also an early game recruit?

Like that you mean?

He's also a frail weakling whose class requires micromanagement in use and he can still be outstripped in some areas by a relevant dual/multi-class. I suppose Bioware really liked the character and also wanted to make him stand out, but he still does so within the BG1 convention (evil character, and Bioware seems to believe that low reputation woes need to have a counterbalance mechanic and gives evil characters an edge; Dorn would fit the bill, but he's just way too over-the-top and really marginalizes the choice between solid NPCs like Montaron, Xzar and Shar-Teel simply because he's just too much. I find his character concept jarring, and the end product the wishful thinking of a person with poor understanding of the finer mechanics - give him all the stuff to make sure he absolutely excels in combat throughout the game, and then just point him at people and reduce encounters to bits. No need to optimize anything, he's just a hoss with a sword that gets to stand out because of unique race and class.), excels at something but you have to make a choice of either him or two pretty good NPCs). He will never fire a bow, the best weapon in BG. Him having a massive spellbook merely cuts your resting time and helps with some prolonged encounters. Great perks to have, but nothing groundbreaking.


But he can soak the dire charms
While making sure Minsc does not become uncontrollable and, perhaps, needlessly close into melee ahead of the party. And his script does not get confused when Improved Invisibility goes into play.

and then you can finish the job with your ranged weapons, also there are only about four Sirine encounters and they're all optional.
All I'm saying is that the Berserker ability just hands Minsc's ass to him. It wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb if the protagonist wasn't the only person that can get access to it. It really cheapens the whole thing; anyone in BG2 can be a member of a kit - some in fact are - and everyone's stats are pretty damn according to what a CHARNAME's power level can be. They're all on a leveled playing field. Here in BG1, a player generated Berserker has to wonder why the hell is there a Ranger with Berserk, and whose Berserk does not work at all like his own. Granted, it's due to the thing that the Berserker class is overall pretty silly and Minsc was first, some retcons could have been made regarding Minsc's class, but the point, nevertheless, is that the difference isn't nearly as transparent in BG2. For BG1, I'd presume, as pertains to low level D&D, that all sorts of immunity effects are supposed to be a rarity and come with some sort of an opportunity cost. Such as a potion of clarity.

The specific way Minsc's berserk works locks him out of quite a few finer tactics that the Berserker class entails, that's all. These tactics can trivialize some of the BG1 encounters that weren't made to handle this stuff.




Right, but you could just use that spell slot to functionally turn the encounter off instead and then it really doesn't matter how many +4s you have because the enemy are reduced to a triviality.

Even if you reduce a combat encounter to sleep, you still to have to find a way to deal with the enemies in a timely fashion before it wears off, if only to cut up on the tedium.
Not an issue with an actual party, but a solo mage will need some help in the early game to actually capitalize on his Sleep spell, I find. As such, conjured weapons like Chill Touch are a nice addition to typical sleep-and-kill tactics.
And, as such, the Seeking Sword does so handsomely. A Command spell sure is powerful, but lasts for a very short time; a 3 APR weapon to maximize the effective usage of this spell is nothing to scoff at.



It doesn't take strawmen to point out how inconsistent your criticisms are.
You took them apart by saying that it's all a matter of "viability" and "lack of viability" when my problem with these characters and issues is due to a larger design and strong suspicions of very lazy implementation of mechanics by the Beamdog crew.

[GloatingSwine]

He's also a frail weakling whose class requires micromanagement in use and he can still be outstripped in some areas by a relevant dual/multi-class.

He's a frail weakling (with a Con of 16..., ohai bracers of dex) whose frailness is rarely relevant because he can do all his best work at range without being targeted.

The point is that Dorn is way less far outside the paradigm of Baldur's Gate NPCs than you are claiming, if he is even outside of it at all, which nobody else really thinks.

Seriously, your argument against the NPCs boils down to "they changed it now it's RUINED!", which you claim to be a concern about "balance" (when only one of the new NPCs can really claim to be near the high end anyway) and claim that Beamdog just don't understand Baldur's Gate like you do (despite the fact that many of them were involved in making it in the first place).


The specific way Minsc's berserk works locks him out of quite a few finer tactics that the Berserker class entails, that's all. These tactics can trivialize some of the BG1 encounters that weren't made to handle this stuff.

Right, but it's sufficient for the specific instance you cited.

The berserk kit class might offer hard counters to certain fights but generally there were already ways to hard counter most of those encounters anyway because that's how a lot of BG1 works. Baldur's Gate is the game where a simple level 1 spell renders one of the highest XP awarding monsters all but completely useless, after all. The game was never "balanced", it's based on a systemically imbalanced ruleset, there were always ways to cheese it, but you argue as if the changes introduced by kits (or new NPCs) are the sole source of imbalance in the game.


Even if you reduce a combat encounter to sleep, you still to have to find a way to deal with the enemies in a timely fashion before it wears off, if only to cut up on the tedium.
Not an issue with an actual party, but a solo mage will need some help in the early game to actually capitalize on his Sleep spell, I find. As such, conjured weapons like Chill Touch are a nice addition to typical sleep-and-kill tactics.
And, as such, the Seeking Sword does so handsomely. A Command spell sure is powerful, but lasts for a very short time; a 3 APR weapon to maximize the effective usage of this spell is nothing to scoff at.

Yes, killing everything when you've sleeped it is not an issue (because solo run tactics are barely relevant to most people's experience of the game so why argue as if everyone is doing a solo run), this is why sleep is so powerful and in general the best use of a caster's level 1 slots and actions.

[Cheesegear]

You can get that +4 longsword for one round once a day at level 1. So unless you rest between every fight it's not actually massively balance relevant. Hooray you killed two gibberlings. Which you would have trivially killed without it. Go you.

But, it scales too well. Level 1, you're killing things easily. Especially with Imoen hanging with you with her Bow. But, straight off the bat, the Ogre fight at the beginning of the game becomes trivial once you pop the Sword. Steamroll through that guy. Assassination attempts are a joke, even the Dwarf in Plate (?) and Shield in Beregost is a joke, because you have +4 to hit him, mocking his high AC - that fight is supposed to be almost hard, like the Ogre.
Three attacks per round with +4 to hit, also smashes through Mirror Image like it doesn't even matter. Although True Sight - which Priests of Helm also get - does that too. Like Mage fights aren't even hard or anything.

So, yeah. The Sword works great, and not just against Gibberlings - but that's my fault. The Sword is basically an 'I Win Button', at any level.


BG1 wasn't balanced anyway, not even against its own environment. Because it was D&D second which was never intended to be balanced.

Your burger needs sauce. Just because it isn't balanced, doesn't mean that it isn't supposed to be.


You say that "new person could pick archer and render game trivial", but that new person could pick a control mage and also render the game trivial because the control spells are all really powerful in low levels.

I guess the difference is that Bows are already king in BG1, and the Archer makes it even more so. A control Mage requires bookkeeping, and a knowledge of how spells work. An Archer just points and clicks, and things die.


Balance doesn't have to mean everything is the same and even the so-called perfectly balanced games like chess or Starcraft have balance issues. I am not asking for the game to be perfectly fair for everyone because that's frankly boring if everyone can do the same thing in the same way; what I'm asking for is for the design to be consistent.
[...]
I would have liked BGEE so much more if I had the option of preserving the BG1 rules, or customizing them, and keeping stuff like the better engine, faster movement, and polished AI.

This. I agree with some things Winthur says, and disagree with him on others. But this I agree with most.
I don't hate the EE. I don't hate Kits. I don't even hate the NPCs. The only thing I don't like about the EE, is that it screws with the difficulty curve right off the bat. Everything is fine in BG2 (AFAIC), but BG1 wasn't designed for that. Not just for people who have played the game a bunch of times and already know all the tricks, but for everyone, even for people who don't already know all the tricks.


EDIT: I suppose you could play the EE on Hard or Insane difficulty.

[Aotrs Commander]

Speakling for myself, I have never touched BG-1 since BG-2 came out and I don't think I'd ever go back to playing the original version. If/when I ever do decide to play it again, it'd either be the enchanced edition and/or those mods the let you use the BG-2 engine. BG-1's engine and UI did not age at all well. (Heck, IWDII's hadn't in comparison to, say PoE.)



The difficulty is unlikely to bother me since at least the first two playthrough and probably the third were entirely with my own characters through multiplayer, and heavily, heavily stated up through the ridiculusly laborious process of acruing the stat tomes and unloading a metric boot-load of equipment (which I got from a mate's save, who got it from one of his mates or something, I believe) into a save and importing/exporting! (Seriously, my first party were all tanking round with Con 25. The fact that this did NOT, in fact, make the game too easy for me says something...!)

[Cheesegear]

If/when I ever do decide to play it again, it'd either be the enchanced edition and/or those mods the let you use the BG-2 engine.

Same thing, though. Minus the NPCs.
If you've played through (and won?) the original BG. Fine. Play the EE. Do whatever you want. If you've already played and/or won the original, you deserve an easy mode.

If you haven't played the original, then don't use the EE. Or, more accurately; Don't use Kits or the new Classes and don't use Fighting Styles (I know Ranger gets TWF for free, but just don't use it. Rangers are already plenty good without receiving 2 extra free proficiency points).

[Calemyr]

Same thing, though. Minus the NPCs.
If you've played through (and won?) the original BG. Fine. Play the EE. Do whatever you want. If you've already played and/or won the original, you deserve an easy mode.

If you haven't played the original, then don't use the EE. Or, more accurately; Don't use Kits or the new Classes and don't use Fighting Styles (I know Ranger gets TWF for free, but just don't use it. Rangers are already plenty good without receiving 2 extra free proficiency points).

Or, on the other hand, just do what you feel like. If you want to play a solo game, do that. If you want to have an all-girl party, do that. If you want to play a game with 6 bards and choose every silly bit of dialogue that comes along, do that. If you want to recreate the Order of the Stick as a custom party*, do that. If you want to walk past (or give the finger to) the new NPCs and focus on the dull-as-mud vanillas, do that. If you want to systematically ignore anything that was upgraded and only play the classes, races, kits (mage specializations), and skills that reflect the first game, do that. If you want to create a party of the most broken builds you can imagine, do that. It's a bloody game. Do what makes the game fun for you.

Unfortunately, BG1 and BG2 used very different rule sets. Heck, pretty different engines, in fact, despite one being built from the other. They couldn't do both in the same game in any feasible way, and the mod community has shown a very strong preference toward BG2 even with BG1 content. There are large and very successful projects (BGTrilogy and BG-Tutu for starters) that bring BG1 into the BG2 system. I have never seen any attempt to pull BG2 back into BG1's engine. BG1's engine is so antiquated and outdated compared to BG2 that the game feels umplayable to myself and I know a lot of players feel the same way. So BG1EE tried to follow the fandom's tastes and use BG2's engine (with some rather serious improvements in the way of bug fixes and interface). Yes, I know they changed it. Now it sucks. But not for everybody. Accept that other people may actually like the increased options and exploitable potential BG1EE offers. Breaking BG1 and BG2 through exploits and super-optimized builds has been a hobby since the games came out, come to think of it.

* Come to think of it, I may actually have to do this. You could have some real fun with that, I think...

[T.G. Oskar]

I have played both versions of Baldur's Gate (thank GoG's sales for that!), and I echo the feeling of some people over here - don't mind the nuances of any of the systems, just play it.

While I'm quite the mechanics nut, I felt the story of the first game has its charm. It's antiquated, it's cliché while still throwing a few curves, but it's charming. The characters can be fun at times (I understand the reason why Minsc is considered the series' mascot - I can't stomach the Realms real well, but I probably might with Minsc on my side).

That, I think, is what you deserve when experiencing the story, no matter the mechanics. The first game can be quite unforgiving if you don't know the AD&D 2nd Ed. rules (or if you don't read the manual!), and can lead to many, many deaths that may prevent the progression of the story. There's a reason why you get so many characters in the first, and why the second is more...lenient on that.

BG1 and BG1:EE, story-wise, are no different other than the new content. I find Dorn to be an interesting character, and if that's considered "author self-insertion", at least it's better done than Edminster Aumar of Greenwood, or Drobert Do'Salvatore. So, really; I find no reason why to prefer one to the other, and if the idea is to play the game anywhere, having EE is better than having nothing at all. Really consider this point - I'd love to see a game with an engine similar (but most likely better) to the Infinity Engine (or maybe the SCL one?) on Eberron, which I'd feel would give people the chance to explore the setting and probably create memorable characters (really, we need a Minsc-equivalent in Eberron!). Yet, there is none, so in that regard, fighting because of aspects of the updated game that one doesn't like seem superfluous when other settings don't get the treatment (Dark Sun, I believe?) or get few, sometimes odd treatment (Eberron getting a RTS and a MMO, but no proper RPG).

In short: get the game (when it's cheap - the holidays are close, and thus should have specials?) and enjoy. Better yet - if you have the money, try both! Then you can see if the opinions of the game's vets hold their ground or not. IMO, I couldn't care less...and I believe others here share that point; I believe that even those that are bickering will agree that the game is great and you should get it, if not WHICH edition to get.

[Winthur]

He's a frail weakling (with a Con of 16..., ohai bracers of dex)
The concept of opportunity cost must be alien to you. Bracers of Dex on Edwin means that you get a slightly better slinger who still dies in one hit, when you could put that same artifact on Kagain. I think you meant Bracers of AC, if anything, but they aren't that good either for this purpose, and aren't that easily pickupable.
whose frailness is rarely relevant because he can do all his best work at range without being targeted.
Still means he takes some actual micromanagement to play.


The point is that Dorn is way less far outside the paradigm of Baldur's Gate NPCs than you are claiming, if he is even outside of it at all, which nobody else really thinks.
Many people have.


Seriously, your argument against the NPCs boils down to "they changed it now it's RUINED!", which you claim to be a concern about "balance" (when only one of the new NPCs can really claim to be near the high end anyway) and claim that Beamdog just don't understand Baldur's Gate like you do (despite the fact that many of them were involved in making it in the first place).

it's based on a systemically imbalanced ruleset, there were always ways to cheese it, but you argue as if the changes introduced by kits (or new NPCs) are the sole source of imbalance in the game.
Yeah, whatever.

Don't bother replying. I won't.

[Kish]

which nobody else really thinks.
You sure speak for everyone else a lot.

[monomer]

I just wanted to point out that Steam has BG2:EE on sale for $5 until tomorrow, so if you were hesitant about checking it out, now may be the time to try it. I haven't actually played it yet, but BG:EE is pretty good and you can avoid most of the enhanced bits if you really want to recreate the original game.