corellon larethian vs undead..

[animewatcha]

I am trying to look everywhere I can, but I can't find Corellon larethian's attitude on undead ( outright destroy vs use as a tool if necessary ). Purpose being cleric/ warlock/ eldritch discipline. The elf deity being mainly for story purpose. Where can I find this info?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, as standard Undead creation is an Evil act, so a good standbye is Corellon, as a CG Diety, would be opposed to the action on principle.

[DrMotives]

I'd assume he hates them, but then there's baelnorns, the explicitly good-aligned elf liches. Not sure if Mr. L approves of those guys or not.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'd assume he hates them, but then there's baelnorns, the explicitly good-aligned elf liches. Not sure if Mr. L approves of those guys or not.

Were they specifically Elf-Liches? I thought it was just a Good Lich.

[Mehangel]

Were they specifically Elf-Liches? I thought it was just a Good Lich.

Well lore-wise they were originally only good elf-liches.

[tiercel]

Probably Corellon is only opposed to undead created by non-elves, since elves are the only ones intelligent, powerful, far-sighted, special, and pretty enough to be entrusted with such a dangerous process.

This does imply that lesser, i.e. non-elven, races have SOME reason to exist, since obviously elves are too special to suffer the indignity of death, much less undeath; other races exist to be necromantic chattel for the benefit of elves, basically lab rats after death, as they are/should be in life.

[Inevitability]

Corellon's dogma is:


The elves are sculptors and wardens of magic's endless mysteries. Bring forth the beauty that envelops and lets the spirit gambol unfettered. Seek out new experiences and new ways. Ward against those that would destroy what they cannot create. Commune with the natural and mystical world. Be ever vigilant against the return of the banished darkness, and be strong in heart against the corruption of the Spider Queen.

I'd say there is nothing specifically against undead in here, but I'm pretty sure any evil undead would still be hated by corellon by virtue of being evil.

[LudicSavant]

Well, as standard Undead creation is an Evil act, so a good standbye is Corellon, as a CG Diety, would be opposed to the action on principle.

The illusion that Corellon Larethian is a good guy extends only as far as him labeling everything he does good and just.

Now, I won't pretend to be an expert on Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk lore (Eberron's more my thing), but every time I read about Corellon Larethian's actual actions he's doing stuff like condemning his loyal herald to a fate worse than death for the sake of his ego after she won a contest he challenged her to and rigged in his favor, eradicating "enemy races" (generally focusing the rhetoric on how their entire race is inherently bad, even though there are obvious examples of non-evil members of those races), or conspiring with other greater deities to "keep the human and other monstrous races from becoming too powerful."

Also, doublethink. If a goblin uses guerilla tactics, it's malevolent and craven and underhanded. If an elf uses guerilla tactics, it's quick and clever and cautious and glorious. In all of the stories of him being arrogant, it's the other person who gets labelled as hubristic for infringing on his ego (the story of Leraje is one of the most brutal examples in 3.5e). When the wasteland orcs raid an elven settlement for supplies, it's an atrocity that demands vengeance in spades, but when elves get together to ritually scar themselves and kill as many orcs as possible during the night for no other reason than to commemorate the elven victory over the orcs in ages past, it's the annual holiday of Agelong. And when his followers make undead, they're totally good and pure elf-undead which is totally different somehow, possibly because one of the highest divine rank deities said so.

[Rubik]

http://web.archive.org/web/20140111025231/http://goblindefensefund.org/

[tiercel]

The illusion that Corellon Larethian is a good guy extends only as far him labeling everything he does good and just.


So... basically, Pelor, the Burning Hate, (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/111574) only for elves (and thus better, because, elves).

[LudicSavant]

So... basically, Pelor, the Burning Hate, (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/111574) only for elves (and thus better, because, elves).

I think Pelor the Burning Hate is based more on implications and speculations and conspiracy theories.

Corellon's bad behavior is just sitting right out there in the open, explicit, plain for anyone to see, as if daring someone to question Him. It's not a big ol' conspiracy theory. It's just that pretty much everything he does in all of the canon I've read is awful, and the only thing that suggests that he's good is... saying that he's good. That's it.

[tiercel]

Pelor the Burning Hate is based more on implications and speculations and conspiracy theories.

Corellon's bad behavior is just sitting right out there in the open, explicit, plain for anyone to see, as if daring someone to question Him. It's not a big ol' conspiracy theory. It's just that pretty much everything he does in all of the canon I've read is awful, and the only thing that suggests that he's good is... saying that he's good. That's it.

Fair point, but then, elves -- not so much about subterfuge as overt superiority complex -- so that makes sense.

[DarkSoul]

I don't remember the source, it was likely Second Edition, possibly Demihuman Deities or even the Complete Book of Elves, but elves consider the "normal" undead to be abominations and they should be destroyed whenever possible. The major exceptions to this attitude are the baelnorns, which are always created for a specific purpose. Even if the elf wants to become a baelnorn, it still requires the blessing of the elven gods for the transformation to take place. In the very few instances where a baelnorn is spontaneously created, it's always with the blessing of the pantheon.

That's how it used to be, anyway. It's how I've always portrayed elves, whether playing or as DM. I haven't seen anything to change this belief in 3E+, but it's up to you and your group.

[Honest Tiefling]

Aren't Baelnorns kinda a Faerun thing? I would say that the different versions of Corellon are different enough to warrant knowing the setting. If the DM has their own, ask them but propose the Baelnorns getting imported in. Personally I like positive-energy undead. Theurges don't usually get out of hand power wise, but minionmancers can, so I'd also try to work with the DM on what is appropriate power level wise if you are doing what I think you are doing.

[Spore]

I'd go as far and say that Corellon if the deity would've been written today would have been CN in his entirety. Now my Forgotten Realms knowledge is rusty but I don't recall any selfless act from him. I recall vicious revenge when threatened: Plucking out Grummsh's eye and banishing Lolth in return for her betrayal isn't exactly what I would call benevolent. This is neutral territory.

He is good because the "good" race of Elves needed a counterpart to the "evil" race of Orcs and having a non-good main deity simply wasn't acceptable back then.

In regards to undeath:


He was the creator and preserver of the Tel'Quessir, governing those things held in the highest esteem among eladrin and elves, such as magic, music, arts, crafts, poetry, and warfare. Corellon lived in the realm of Arvandor. He approved of those who killed orcs and followers of Lolth, blessed those who aided others and became angered at those who defiled the dead, or fled from their foes

If we allow a liberal interpretation of these lines I guess involuntary necromantic rituals are frowned upon. Being a lich isn't frowned upon but I guess the ritual that makes you one isn't really what one would consider "non defiling". As for vampires or other creatures, I guess their value on the "Corellon-o-meter" is regarded as to how devoted they are to Elven ideals, with the default still purging their existence if they are not heavily contributing.

I can see a Cleric of Corellon kill hundreds of undead but sparing the vampire bard who continues to make music (and feed on non-elven victims). The priest may tumble down into CN territory for that but I feel that his powers are still granted to him.