Alignment and Tolerance

[EdRed]

Hello Playground,

i'd like to ask a question regarding alignment and tolerance, or better to say intolerance.

Since Good is supposed to respect Love, does that make being homophobic inherently Evil? (In DND, mind you, i think that the thread might be violating the rules if this gets into RL).

Can a person be of Good alignment while not tolerating same sex relationships ?

[Necroticplague]

Yes.

yes. One doesn't have to be perfectly Good to be Good. As long as your intolerance doesn't involve more Evil actions, you should easily be in the clear.

[ApologyFestival]

I don't see why not. No mortal is perfect, and as capital-G Good as any mortal tries to be, they aren't going to tick every box on the list of good deeds, nor should they be expected to. Angels are capital-G Good and they aren't perfect beacons of love and tolerance. Angels (and deities, and other Good-aligned creatures) don't tolerate things they oppose, they murder the heck out of them.

Like most things alignment, this comes down to a DM's call and the specifics of the campaign world.

[Nifft]

Good people can have flaws.

Homophobia sure sounds like a flaw.

(No, you can't have another bonus feat for it.)

[EdRed]

Well, thanks for your answers so far!

I would like to ask another related question - how would you judge the situation if you have a society with laws prohibiting any open display of same sex affection?

[YossarianLives]

Good people don't tolerate everything. That is true.

Good people are intolerant of things like murder, torture, and bigotry.

[BWR]

Well, thanks for your answers so far!

I would like to ask another related question - how would you judge the situation if you have a society with laws prohibiting any open display of same sex affection?

Isn't that asking us out real life opinions on real life issues?
As far as games go, I accept a lot of stuff. What is Good in a game may not be what I think is good IRL and it may even include things that I think are actually cruel and bad. Ars Magica, for instance, runs on mediaeval Christianity, as near as can be determined 8with some liberties, of course), and there are some views of what is right and good that I disagree with personally but I play the game as intended. Same with L5R, which has a caste system with 90& of the population considered little more than property and half-human, and foreigners and some other residents as non-human. That mindset offends me greatly IRL but I enjoy the heck out of the setting and can play paragons of virtue that have 'lessers' tortured and killed for minor offenses.
So if I play in a setting where same-sex relations are frowned upon I shrug it off and don't bring it up. If I play a character who disagrees with such laws...well, it depends on a whole bunch of things related to character, setting, any given situation, relevant laws, etc.-

[Nifft]

Well, thanks for your answers so far! Just remember that having a flaw is NOT an excuse to engage in non-Good behavior. It's a thing you have to fight against (or overcome) in order to remain Good.

Interacting with your flaws is a great way to show your character.

Giving in to your flaws is a way to become an NPC.


I would like to ask another related question - how would you judge the situation if you have a society with laws prohibiting any open display of same sex affection?
LG: "Chaps! Listen, chaps. You may not know that in this land public displays of affection are prohibited. If you must do such things, please keep discretion in mind."

CG: "Right on! You dudes go ahead and stick it to The Man. The, uh, metaphorical Man, you know, the man in charge."

LE: "I have evidence of your perversion. You will now obey me or suffer the consequences of your dalliances."

CE: *stab* "Goddamn deviant scum. They deserved it."

[Cirrylius]

Can't wait to see how long the doors take to clang shut on this one :smallbiggrin:

Personally, I feel that lifestyle, mostly closeted homophobia should count as Neutral- some people genuinely believe that homosexuality is wrong for...varying reasons, but also believe that they still don't have the right to dictate how others should live. I'm also betting that people of this^ kidney aren't the sort of homophobes the OP is wondering about.

Others believe that homosexuality is wrong, perhaps strongly so, but don't do anything about it beyond stating that it's wrong, to anyone who sill listen- which I would also consider to be Neutral, albeit distasteful, since even if the hostility comes from personal loathing or social stigma rather than some kind of doctrine, it's still being held in check.

Active homophobia is evil, but comes in degrees. A pushy moralizer might actually be a good person, even a Good person, because Evils like mild antagonism and social snubbing are small enough to be drowned out by Good acts. Anyone with a less firm grasp on their alignment, though, is probably going to be Neutral, at best, and anyone who engages in outright intimidation, harassment, or violence, regardless of their reasons, will either already be Evil, or will have to contend with severe downsliding if they have a chance to indulge their homophobia with any frequency.

As you go down the scale, you gradually go from "opposed but civilized" to "hurting something because they're an easy target", IOW.

Also, to keep the ball rolling-

LN: You two there! Stop that. Stop it. Stop it! It is unlawful to engage in public same-sex intimacy under Penal Code 1443 point-
*raucous laughter*

NE: So you're a little weird, huh? Okay. That's fine. It's just that me and the boys heard that His Lordship holds a little social club on weekends, and both me and the constables like the idea of you being... useful, as long as you're here. Nothing personal.
Much.
*clinking of coins changing several hands*

Edit: Too dark? I feel like that was too dark:smallfrown:

[EdRed]

Isn't that asking us out real life opinions on real life issues?

I'm actually asking you to state anything but your real life opinions on real life issues in the op.


Can't wait to see how long the doors take to clang shut on this one :smallbiggrin:

Well, i do hope that the discussion remains as civil as it currently is!


Thanks again for all your answers!

[Geddy2112]

In a broader sense, two people of the same alignment can disagree on things being right or wrong. Heck, there are plenty of examples of deities with the same alignment disagreeing, or deities of very different alignments agreeing on something.

As far as tolerating, I would think most good aligned people would tolerate something they disagree with, although "tolerating" might come with a sternly and loudly voiced opinion.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think in a lot of ways, this depends on the game. If you have an exalted character in the group for instance, it can either be a total drag for them just like...Well, other minor evil behaviors. It could also be a source of RP conflict, but only if the whole party is on board with the idea and either has alternate plots for the spotlight or something to contribute. Other people might not be wholly happy with greyer shades of morality. In some games morality is just different shades of grey, and this would fit right in there.

[Tuvarkz]

I could easily see it more as a Lawful-Chaotic difference rather than Good-Evil.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This thread inherently calls for real life moral and value judgments and already contains real world religion references. Locked.