Length of Chain: Simple or Martial?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey people,

my players just escaped a slaver ship. The Goliath kept a 10 foot length of chain.

how would you rule this as a Weapon?

Yes and no Improvised weapon answers please. not just "d4 it"


thanks in advance! your superior expertise is always appreciated.

-Dove

[Kane0]

Martial 1d6 two handed finesse weapon, possibly usable as an offhand light weapon also.

[Shaofoo]

A weapon is something that was created for the purpose to hit others with it. A length of chain is not meant to be used as a weapon because its design doesn't leave it to be used as such.

No weapon matches anything resembling a heavy iron chain. Also as such it is improvised because no weapon training could be used to feasibly wield the chain with any proficiency.

It is a d4 improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage. I can't see any weapon that could match a length of chain.

[Human Paragon 3]

Sorry, I agree with the above posters. This is an improvised bludgeoning weapon. Let the character take tavern brawler and get proficiency in it, and let him use best of Dex or Str, and let it be reach, and do whatever you want to make it cool, but it is an improvised weapon.

[JoeJ]

Definitely martial. It's a specialist weapon that requires a great deal of skill to use effectively. I'd start with the stats for whip and increase the damage to d6.

[SharkForce]

A weapon is something that was created for the purpose to hit others with it. A length of chain is not meant to be used as a weapon because its design doesn't leave it to be used as such.

No weapon matches anything resembling a heavy iron chain. Also as such it is improvised because no weapon training could be used to feasibly wield the chain with any proficiency.

It is a d4 improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage. I can't see any weapon that could match a length of chain.

here, let me help you:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=flail&biw=1280&bih=923&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMInsTJvP_MyAIVBiYeCh08ywNC

what you have is essentially a flail only without a proper head on the end. on the other hand, it's a heck of a lot longer and plenty heavy to deal damage. it wraps around shields and blocking weapons like a flail, it hits with bludgeoning force like a flail, it probably uses a fighting style similar to a flail in most respects really.

[JellyPooga]

Sorry, I agree with the above posters. This is an improvised bludgeoning weapon. Let the character take tavern brawler and get proficiency in it, and let him use best of Dex or Str, and let it be reach, and do whatever you want to make it cool, but it is an improvised weapon.

Yeah, I've got to agree with this.

It's absolutely an Improvised Weapon that closest resembles a Whip, except it's heavier.

I'd rule it as a one-handed 1d4 bludgeoning Improvised Weapon with Reach. If I was feeling generous, I might make it Versatile (1d6) as well. I wouldn't give it Finesse, though (so Str only).

[Whyrocknodie]

It's quite similar to stuff like the kusari-fundo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusari-fundo).

How effective as a weapon it is would depend quite a lot on how thick the links are. For a relatively thin chain I'd go with 1d6 bludgeoning, two-handed and maybe give it reach. As a flexible weapon it isn't simple to use, so martial proficiency.

A thick chain would probably be very impractical to wield, and belong in the improvised camp.

[bid]

It's absolutely an Improvised Weapon that closest resembles a Whip, except it's heavier.
If it had a handle, it could be a flail. But yeah, no handle makes it an improvised weapon.

[Shaofoo]

A whip and a flail has a handle for you to hold your grip while you swing, the iron chain has that disadvantage that every part of it flexes as you swing. I would assume that trying to not hurt yourself with the chain you don't use the chain to its full power.

I know that the situation might not be ideal but try to find an iron bar, I am pretty sure if iron chains could be found then iron bars isn't a stretch, tie the chain around the end of the bar and you could have a flail (it would still be d4 but you'd get proficiency bonuses since it is at least shaped like a weapon now) or just wrap the chain on one end of the bar and you can have a hammer like weapon. It might not be the best but I think it is heads above a simple chain.

An improvised weapon, even when it could mimic an actual weapon, would never be equal to an actual weapon in my book. A length of chain is good when you are desperate for a weapon but you should never expect to actually hold onto such weapons unless it is the concept of the character (Tavern Brawler or the character reflavors flails as lengths of chain)

[Doof]

No handle, no weight focused on the hitting end, overall never designed to be used as weaponry? That's the epitome of what an improvised weapon is. Don't mollycoddle your players by granting them their every whim.

[DracoKnight]

In my games players have a chance to use a spiked chain as a martial weapon. 1d6 Light/Finesse with 10ft. reach. So basically they smith a sohrtsword blade to the end of a length of chain. Maybe your player could do this?

[Nifft]

I'd let a generic 10 ft. chain work as a club, or a pair of clubs.

Gripping the chain would add weight to punches, and swinging a foot or so of chin (a very short length relative to 10 ft.) could be effective even without weighted ends, spikes, or any special training.

I would not let it work like a 3.5e spiked chain.

[Malifice]

Clearly this is an Improvised weapon, 1d4B damage, has reach.

Why is this not an option?

[Dark Tira]

Clearly this is an Improvised weapon, 1d4B damage, has reach.

Why is this not an option?

Because the OP doesn't think it's appropriate. The obvious solution would be to make it a simple weapon with the same base stats as a whip with the additional feature that you don't get proficiency bonus with it.

[Malifice]

Because the OP doesn't think it's appropriate. The obvious solution would be to make it a simple weapon with the same base stats as a whip with the additional feature that you don't get proficiency bonus with it.

Thats weird, because thats what it clearly is.

Anyways, yeah. Whip or whatever.

[JellyPooga]

Because the OP doesn't think it's appropriate.

No offence to the OP, but this kind of situation is exactly what the Improvised Weapon rules were designed for.

A length of chain isn't designed as a weapon. If it were modified to be such (someone suggested adding a handle), then yes, treat it as a weapon, probably a flail or perhaps a whip (if the chain is light).

As it is, by the RAW, a length of chain is an improvised weapon. To adjudicate the stats for improvised weapons, you compare it to the most appropriate weapon on the table on pg.149 or ad-hoc it if there's no appropriate comparison.

I, personally, think it's closest to a whip, which is why I suggested d4 damage with Reach, with an option for Versatile(1d6) due to its weight. It's not saying "just d4 it" as the OP wants to avoid, it's using the rules to make a fair and weighed judgement. That I (and others) happen to decide on d4 is beside the point.

[Coidzor]

If he improvises a handle for it, such as with rope, I'd allow it as a two-handed version of a flail, if flails had Versatile(1d10), I suppose. Especially if he finds something to form the head.

[Kane0]

I can totally get behind the idea of a goliath wrapping an anchor chain around his hands for some big knuckle duster action.

Simple 1d8 bludgeoning, two handed.

He could wrap it around a big stick and make a pretty effective mace or flail too.

The most important question of all is: Is this guy taking the mariner fighting style and/or the sailor background?

[Malifice]

I can totally get behind the idea of a goliath wrapping an anchor chain around his hands for some big knuckle duster action.

Simple 1d8 bludgeoning, two handed.

He could wrap it around a big stick and make a pretty effective mace or flail too.

The most important question of all is: Is this guy taking the mariner fighting style and/or the sailor background?

100kg anchor attached? d10 bludgeoning, reach, heavy, two handed, improvised for mine.

[JoeJ]

It is improvised, certainly, but it's an improvised version of a real weapon, so I'd treat it as such.

[Mjolnirbear]

In my games players have a chance to use a spiked chain as a martial weapon. 1d6 Light/Finesse with 10ft. reach. So basically they smith a sohrtsword blade to the end of a length of chain. Maybe your player could do this?

This is basically a superior shortsword. Why use a shortsword when i can use this instead? Heck i can dual-weild these.

[Malifice]

This is basically a superior shortsword. Why use a shortsword when i can use this instead? Heck i can dual-weild these.

Heh.

If only the Romans had've stumbled on this. The conqured the world with shortswords. Image what they would have done dual weilding shorswords on the end of 10' chains.

[JoeJ]

Heh.

If only the Romans had've stumbled on this. The conqured the world with shortswords. Image what they would have done dual weilding shorswords on the end of 10' chains.

Cut their own heads off?

[Malifice]

Cut their own heads off?

Heh exactly.

Spiked and bladed chains are just the most ridiculous of weapon that never saw any actual use on the battlefield, while the humble spear never gets the love it deserves in most games.

[SharkForce]

a 10 foot length of chain designed to hold slaves (including goliaths apparently) is not going to need a head to deal damage. it probably weighs as much as some suits of armour. getting hit by it is akin to being hit with a large metal pole, only this one is flexible, and is enjoying the benefits of being at the outer end of a swinging object giving it superior leverage.

d6 damage for that is just silly. not as silly as the 100 lb anchor doing as much damage as a glaive when swung at someone, but still, silly.

[Malifice]

a 10 foot length of chain designed to hold slaves (including goliaths apparently) is not going to need a head to deal damage. it probably weighs as much as some suits of armour. getting hit by it is akin to being hit with a large metal pole, only this one is flexible, and is enjoying the benefits of being at the outer end of a swinging object giving it superior leverage.

d6 damage for that is just silly. not as silly as the 100 lb anchor doing as much damage as a glaive when swung at someone, but still, silly.

Dude, if I had to choose between fighting a bloke armed with a glaive or a length of chain with an anchor on the end, I know which direction I am headed in.

[DracoKnight]

Spiked and bladed chains are just the most ridiculous of weapon that never saw any actual use on the battlefield

But in my head, as I see my players fighting monsters, they look pretty damn cool. And at it's heart, that's what D&D is about. Having fun and being awesome.

EDIT: The annoying DM sitting beside me says: "You're wrong. D&D is about realizing the futility of life." Correction to my previous statement: D&D is about having fun and being awesome, that includes the masochists. We don't judge.

[SharkForce]

Dude, if I had to choose between fighting a bloke armed with a glaive or a length of chain with an anchor on the end, I know which direction I am headed in.

that's because the guy with the chain and anchor can probably barely move in real life. if they actually manage to get it moving though, you're pretty screwed; fairly tough to dodge, nearly impossible to block effectively unless you're way back at 10 feet.

given we're assuming that the chain is in fact usable as a weapon, when it hits it should deal a lot of damage if only because it is a large heavy object with a lot of mechanical advantage.

[Malifice]

that's because the guy with the chain and anchor can probably barely move in real life. if they actually manage to get it moving though, you're pretty screwed; fairly tough to dodge, nearly impossible to block effectively unless you're way back at 10 feet.

given we're assuming that the chain is in fact usable as a weapon, when it hits it should deal a lot of damage if only because it is a large heavy object with a lot of mechanical advantage.

Much easier to dodge than a glaive. Just gotta step away from the swing and no chance in hell he's getting a backswing in!

Dare say that a hundred kilo weight could do some serious damage on a solid hit. Then again, getting poked or hacked with a glaive wouldn't be pleasant either.

Make it heavy (GWM kicks in and halflings have disadvantage to use it) 2 handed, reach (long chain), inprovised (clearly) and bludgeoning damage. I make it d10 (about the same damage dealt with a warhammer in 2 hands, and on par with other reach weapons).

Add rule of cool effects as it strikes your fancy. Gets tangled up on a natural 1, requires room to swing effectively etc.

Not OP, just fun.

[Eldan]

I woudl also suggest wrapping it around a fist to use for punching. Up the damage die one category from normal punching, done. Like a gauntlet, maybe.

[Malifice]

I woudl also suggest wrapping it around a fist to use for punching. Up the damage die one category from normal punching, done. Like a gauntlet, maybe.

I'd rule a chain wrapped around a fist to be a d4 bludgeoning improvied weapon. The sort of thing a tavern brawler should be good at.

[JAL_1138]

Kusari-fundo, surujin, meteor hammer, and the chain on the kusarigama would definitely be martial weapons, but then they do have weights on the ends.

Your fighter could make it into any of those rather easily, but as it is, I still would have to vote for an improvised weapon.

[JAL_1138]

I'd rule a chain wrapped around a fist to be a d4 bludgeoning improvied weapon. The sort of thing a tavern brawler should be good at.

...so, no more effective than an unwrapped fist whatsoever for a Tavern Brawler?

[-Jynx-]

Since no one has really asked... what kind of chain? I would imagine a Goliath with a high STR score can wield a hefty chain but obviously there is a difference between the chain they would use for shackles and the chain they'd use for an anchor.

Since I think a goliath wielding a chain as a primary weapon is (flavorly speaking) awesome I would give it a 1d8+STR. I don't see any reason why it can't be (if the chain is large enough) and it won't mechanically break anything.

I'd also rule it a 1d6 for punching but the user takes 1 damage (because wrapping a chain around your hands doesn't feel great for you either). And yes I think it should be an improvised weapon.

[JAL_1138]

Since no one has really asked... what kind of chain? I would imagine a Goliath with a high STR score can wield a hefty chain but obviously there is a difference between the chain they would use for shackles and the chain they'd use for an anchor.

Since I think a goliath wielding a chain as a primary weapon is (flavorly speaking) awesome I would give it a 1d8+STR. I don't see any reason why it can't be (if the chain is large enough) and it won't mechanically break anything.

I'd also rule it a 1d6 for punching but the user takes 1 damage (because wrapping a chain around your hands doesn't feel great for you either). And yes I think it should be an improvised weapon.

Good point about the size of the chain--big ol' heavy steel chain even without a weight on the end can easily weigh more than most real-life warhammers and can lay on some real hurt.

[KorvinStarmast]

No offence to the OP, but this kind of situation is exactly what the Improvised Weapon rules were designed for.

As it is, by the RAW, a length of chain is an improvised weapon. This is a very good answer, as are all of the answers on improvised weapons.

@Malifice


Spiked and bladed chains are just the most ridiculous of weapon that never saw any actual use on the battlefield, while the humble spear never gets the love it deserves in most games.

Amen.

[Theodoxus]

Much easier to dodge than a glaive. Just gotta step away from the swing and no chance in hell he's getting a backswing in!

Dare say that a hundred kilo weight could do some serious damage on a solid hit. Then again, getting poked or hacked with a glaive wouldn't be pleasant either.

Make it heavy (GWM kicks in and halflings have disadvantage to use it) 2 handed, reach (long chain), inprovised (clearly) and bludgeoning damage. I make it d10 (about the same damage dealt with a warhammer in 2 hands, and on par with other reach weapons).

Add rule of cool effects as it strikes your fancy. Gets tangled up on a natural 1, requires room to swing effectively etc.

Not OP, just fun.

I'd go one further - can make 1 attack a round (realistically, only 1 every 2 rounds, but that's super harsh), and can't use a bonus attack with it (so even if GWM kicks in with a crit or KO, you can't use that bonus attack). The only caveat would be to allow Frenzy (because Frenzy needs a boost :smallbiggrin:)

[DracoKnight]

The only caveat would be to allow Frenzy (because Frenzy needs a boost :smallbiggrin:)

Frenzy does not need a boost. Frenzy kicks in as long as you're raging, whether or not you take the attack action.

[Theodoxus]

Not to derail the thread, but my reply needs to be taken in total, not piecemeal.

If you're hucking a chunck of chain with a massive cap on it, you're not whipping it around like a finesse fighter. I don't care if you have 4 attacks and 3 action surges, you're getting 1 decent attack a round with that thing. I'm willing to provide the caveat of Frenzy because it's thematic. If you're going to get exhausted from using an ability anyone else can get for free (granted, a smaller potential damage die - but that should be irrelevant), then gaining a second (albeit bonus) attack a round with the anchor chain is fair.

Yes, there's a ton of things you could theoretically use your action on, and still get a bonus attack with. In actual play, that hardly ever happens, and certainly not multiple times an encounter. Dashing into combat, generally not in combat. The baked in Whirlwind Attack along with 40+ speed negates that. Hiding? Not the barbarian's bailiwick. Dodge? Sure, if you're going super tanky and don't want to be hit... foregoing your other class features (resistance, extra attack) to not get hit probably means you're not pulling aggro either. Help? Barbarian is typically the power house damage dealer - they're the one requesting help, not offering it.

So, yes, Frenzy lets you play proto-rogue, and do crap damage instead of 3 attacks (if that's what you want to do) - And sure, 1d10+16 (or 2d6+16 if you don't want reach) is better than 1d6+6 for a third attack... but is better than 1d4+16? Not significantly.

I've been playing a Berserker in a game. I used Frenzy in one fight, and my fellow players were amazed at my 3x 1d10+16 hits. But the next session, I opted not to use Frenzy, and used the bonus from PoleArm Master instead and they were even more incredulous that my 1d4 attack dealt 19 damage.

My point is that the bonus attack from Frenzy that doesn't require an attack action to generate is extremely niche and the drawback (exhaustion) is huge in comparison. I'd consider granting Action Surge in replace of Frenzy - heck at least then, there'd be a reason for a barbarian to take a short rest...

[-Jynx-]

Heh exactly.

Spiked and bladed chains are just the most ridiculous of weapon that never saw any actual use on the battlefield, while the humble spear never gets the love it deserves in most games.

Do not forget however that war weaponry differs greatly from skirmish weaponry. Spears halberds and the like are wonderful on a nice flat open battlefield coupled with a shield but are burdening in cities and dungeons and tight areas especially compared to swords. If anything spears get PLENTY of love not being ham-handed in anywhere but open fields.

That doesn't mean I support the idea that chains make great weapons (outside of the flavor of fffffffffantasy!) but lets not get ahead of ourselves in assuming that there aren't plenty of skirmish/1v1 weapons that are more than adequate in a dnd setting (that also never saw life on the battlefield).

[Malifice]

...so, no more effective than an unwrapped fist whatsoever for a Tavern Brawler?

His fists are like iron already. I wouldnt rule the damage is better than a dagger for sure.

[SharkForce]

Do not forget however that war weaponry differs greatly from skirmish weaponry. Spears halberds and the like are wonderful on a nice flat open battlefield coupled with a shield but are burdening in cities and dungeons and tight areas especially compared to swords. If anything spears get PLENTY of love not being ham-handed in anywhere but open fields.

That doesn't mean I support the idea that chains make great weapons (outside of the flavor of fffffffffantasy!) but lets not get ahead of ourselves in assuming that there aren't plenty of skirmish/1v1 weapons that are more than adequate in a dnd setting (that also never saw life on the battlefield).

i'm confused why you think a spear would be ineffective in tight spaces. it is primarily a thrusting weapon. one of the big reasons it is favoured in war is that you can cram more guys into the same area without making them unable to use the weapon the way you would if you tried the same with something like a long sword or a flail.

if i was in a 5 foot wide dungeon hallway, and you gave me a choice between a spear and a long sword (or whatever you consider the real life equivalent to be) there is not the slightest chance i'd take the sword (i might choose a short sword or rapier over a spear, depending on how twisty the hallway is, but even in a twisty hallway i'd still rather have a spear than a long sword. i can always choke up on the spear, after all... not so much with the sword).

[Malifice]

i'm confused why you think a spear would be ineffective in tight spaces. it is primarily a thrusting weapon. one of the big reasons it is favoured in war is that you can cram more guys into the same area without making them unable to use the weapon the way you would if you tried the same with something like a long sword or a flail.

if i was in a 5 foot wide dungeon hallway, and you gave me a choice between a spear and a long sword (or whatever you consider the real life equivalent to be) there is not the slightest chance i'd take the sword (i might choose a short sword or rapier over a spear, depending on how twisty the hallway is, but even in a twisty hallway i'd still rather have a spear than a long sword. i can always choke up on the spear, after all... not so much with the sword).

If that haft is sundered or grabbed, or your reach is stepped inside of, youre in some serious strife against 3 feet of sharpened steel.

[JackPhoenix]

If that haft is sundered or grabbed, or your reach is stepped inside of, youre in some serious strife against 3 feet of sharpened steel.

In tight quarters, you can hold the spear closer to the spearhed, which means stepping into your reach is impossible. Sundering is almost impossible (if we're not talking about a greatsword and a long pike braced in the ground) as the spearman isn't holding the spear still to absorb the full power of the blow, and many spears have some length of the haft streghtened by a metal band. Trying to grab a spear that's trying to stab you means having at least one hand free (and thus lacking either a weapon or a shield of your own) and reaching beyond the sharp spearhead, which means letting the part that's trying to stab you behind your own defenses.

Here's a nice example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjJavcsNjA for sundering and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-6x8H9yI6c for grabbing the spear

[ryan92084]

If you are going for the street brawler style then D4 improvised ( maybe reach) with either bonus to or chance of grapple/disarm imo.

[Logosloki]

Martial, 1d8 bludgeoning, reach, heavy, two-handed.

If it was an environment piece then I would have suggested Improvised Weapon rather than martial. If a player is taking it and intending to use it as a main weapon or sidearm then you might as well stat it as a weapon. After all, it is no sillier than a shortsword that is only piercing.

[SharkForce]

In tight quarters, you can hold the spear closer to the spearhed, which means stepping into your reach is impossible. Sundering is almost impossible (if we're not talking about a greatsword and a long pike braced in the ground) as the spearman isn't holding the spear still to absorb the full power of the blow, and many spears have some length of the haft streghtened by a metal band. Trying to grab a spear that's trying to stab you means having at least one hand free (and thus lacking either a weapon or a shield of your own) and reaching beyond the sharp spearhead, which means letting the part that's trying to stab you behind your own defenses.

Here's a nice example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjJavcsNjA for sundering and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-6x8H9yI6c for grabbing the spear

and of course, in the event that the haft is broken regardless, you still have a stick with a pointy bit on the end which is just a shorter spear. unless they broke it mere inches from the head (and then you still have what is essentially a dagger).

not to mention, the spear is likely being held such that only about 3 feet extend from the hand anyways (ie the same as the sword). if you're too close for me to stab you and you've got a longsword, you're also too close to slash me effectively practically speaking. you might be able to pull off slitting my throat if you're very close and have me pinned, but you're not going to be swinging a sword around if you're that close (now, you can certainly get too close for a pike to be effective outside of a formation, but we were talking about spears, not just specifically the subset of spears that are 12 to 18 feet long).

[Malifice]

In tight quarters, you can hold the spear closer to the spearhed, which means stepping into your reach is impossible. Sundering is almost impossible (if we're not talking about a greatsword and a long pike braced in the ground) as the spearman isn't holding the spear still to absorb the full power of the blow, and many spears have some length of the haft streghtened by a metal band. Trying to grab a spear that's trying to stab you means having at least one hand free (and thus lacking either a weapon or a shield of your own) and reaching beyond the sharp spearhead, which means letting the part that's trying to stab you behind your own defenses.

Here's a nice example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQjJavcsNjA for sundering and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-6x8H9yI6c for grabbing the spear

We were talking about tight quarters, no sheild. I'd look to deflect the spear towards the wall, step in and grab it, then stab towards the face and neck of the spearman (or hack at his hands getting him to drop the spear).

He'd be looking to keep the sharp bit of the spear between me and him taking advantage of his reach by thrusting it forward toward my face and neck as he advanced.

Not that I'm an expert in spear fighting or anything.

[SharkForce]

We were talking about tight quarters, no sheild. I'd look to deflect the spear towards the wall, step in and grab it, then stab towards the face and neck of the spearman (or hack at his hands getting him to drop the spear).

He'd be looking to keep the sharp bit of the spear between me and him taking advantage of his reach by thrusting it forward toward my face and neck as he advanced.

Not that I'm an expert in spear fighting or anything.

well if you're using a long sword, it's going to be more like pushing the spear aside (maybe, or maybe getting stabbed in the process) and then fumbling around with your own weapon which is just as much too long as theirs trying to stab with something that lacks the counterbalance that the haft of the spear gives and thus being a clumsy buffoon with it as well.

unless of course you're talking about a short sword or a dagger, in which case you're pitting your ability to get past his attacks against his reach. personally, i'll take the reach, thanks.

[eastmabl]

...so, no more effective than an unwrapped fist whatsoever for a Tavern Brawler?

Not all tavern brawlers have the Tavern Brawler feat - especially since NPCs in 5e are divorced from having some kind of character class.

[LordFluffy]

In another thread somewhere, someone asked about a ball and chain, intending it to be a heavy reach weapon. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed reasonable to do it as a reskin of a glaive. I'm not a huge fan of "just reskin it" as an answer, but it's got all the the attributes that I'd want to ascribe to it: reach, heavy, two handed.

I'd say go with that.

[-Jynx-]

well if you're using a long sword, it's going to be more like pushing the spear aside (maybe, or maybe getting stabbed in the process) and then fumbling around with your own weapon which is just as much too long as theirs trying to stab with something that lacks the counterbalance that the haft of the spear gives and thus being a clumsy buffoon with it as well.

unless of course you're talking about a short sword or a dagger, in which case you're pitting your ability to get past his attacks against his reach. personally, i'll take the reach, thanks.

Clearly you're unfamiliar with half-swording. A long sword technique specifically for close quarters combat. Which is what makes it a far more helpful weapon in smaller areas than a spear is. As good as a short sword? Depends on the space, but it's certainly a viable option.

[SharkForce]

Clearly you're unfamiliar with half-swording. A long sword technique specifically for close quarters combat. Which is what makes it a far more helpful weapon in smaller areas than a spear is. As good as a short sword? Depends on the space, but it's certainly a viable option.

sounds like it might work for someone wearing steel gauntlets. sounds like an exceptionally poor idea for anyone not wearing them. also sounds remarkably like what you've got is a crappier, more expensive version of a spear that is not balanced properly in the first place for thrusting. i'm not certain that "i can use my sword like a poorly-balanced spear" is a compelling argument in favour of the sword.

again, the spear has a haft which is not a blade, which will provide better grip, which you can choke up on to any point you choose, and has a balancing counterweight at the back to help make the tip easier to maneuver.

also, from what i can tell in my brief research, the technique was developed because a sword was crap at getting through full plate armour in the first place unless you grabbed it with both hands and thrust at a weak point, not because it was intended for close-quarters combat specifically.

[Malifice]

Yet German greatsword mercenaries (Zweihanders) were specifically designed to fight polearm/ spear equipped troops by knocking the longer hafted weapons aside and getting inside their reach:


The weapon is mostly associated with either Swiss or German mercenaries known as Landsknecht, and their wielders were Doppelsöldner. However, the Swiss outlawed their use, while the Landsknechte kept using them until much later.[4] The Black Band of German mercenaries (active during the 1510s and 1520s) included 2,000 two-handed swordsmen in a total strength of 17,000 men. Zweihänder-wielders fought with and against pike formations. There are some accounts of Zweihänders cutting off pike heads

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Battle_of_Kappel_detail.jpg

[SharkForce]

there are some accounts of people making extreme long range rifle shots. does that mean that any rifle in the hands of any person in any circumstance can make those shots?

something happening occasionally does not mean that it is a reasonable expectation for it to happen regularly.

edit: also, once again, that is pikes in your quote. you know. the spears that are up to 18 feet long. that were different enough to generally be given a distinct name, rather than being treated as the same thing.

generally speaking, if i say spear, i'm not talking about an 18 foot long weapon. that would be a pike.

[Malifice]

there are some accounts of people making extreme long range rifle shots. does that mean that any rifle in the hands of any person in any circumstance can make those shots?

something happening occasionally does not mean that it is a reasonable expectation for it to happen regularly.

edit: also, once again, that is pikes in your quote. you know. the spears that are up to 18 feet long. that were different enough to generally be given a distinct name, rather than being treated as the same thing.

generally speaking, if i say spear, i'm not talking about an 18 foot long weapon. that would be a pike.

Dude, I'm just expaining what sword weilding infantry was used for. Carving through spearmen. They're also much more mobile and easier to deploy. The spearmen were used as defensive troops (particularly good against cavalry). They attached blades on the spears to make the spearmen more versatile, or lengthened the spears into Pikes for better defensive (but less mobile) units.

Archers dominate the battlefield, and that's where you sent your cavalry. Of course the archers were protected by spearmen, so you had to deal with them first... and they're good against cavalry charges. You can't send your swordsmen into the spearmen until you dealt with the archers as they were slow and would be gunned down by volleys of arrows on the way in.

Paper, scissors, rock and all that.

[NNescio]

Yet German greatsword mercenaries (Zweihanders) were specifically designed to fight polearm/ spear equipped troops by knocking the longer hafted weapons aside and getting inside their reach:

The weapon is mostly associated with either Swiss or German mercenaries known as Landsknecht, and their wielders were Doppelsöldner. However, the Swiss outlawed their use, while the Landsknechte kept using them until much later.[4] The Black Band of German mercenaries (active during the 1510s and 1520s) included 2,000 two-handed swordsmen in a total strength of 17,000 men. Zweihänder-wielders fought with and against pike formations. There are some accounts of Zweihänders cutting off pike heads

Actual full quote:


The weapon is mostly associated with either Swiss or German mercenaries known as Landsknecht, and their wielders were Doppelsöldner. However, the Swiss outlawed their use, while the Landsknechte kept using them until much later.[4] The Black Band of German mercenaries (active during the 1510s and 1520s) included 2,000 two-handed swordsmen in a total strength of 17,000 men. Zweihänder-wielders fought with and against pike formations. There are some accounts of Zweihänders cutting off pike heads.[citation needed] Soldiers trained in the use of the sword were granted the title of Meister des langen Schwertes (lit. Master of the Long Sword) by the Marx brotherhood.

It's difficult for a sword to chop pikes, in the same way it's hard to chop through a 2 inch thick pole with a sword (instead of say, an axe). Furthermore, pikeheads were reinforced with langets (metal strips).

A halberd might conceivably do that, and pike squares often include halberdiers. You still face the same problem of getting hit in the vitals by the 2~4 pike layers behind the pike you just chopped off/knocked away though.

Pike squares pretty much dominated the battlefield provided the pikemen were trained well enough. They can be quite vulnerable at the flanks though, which is why pikemen were often accompanied by swordsmen and halberdiers to defend their flanks (or break up others' flanks).

Zweihanders were also quite effective when the pike formation is broken, such as when the pikemen are forced to move across certain terrain (or forced to move faster), or if they are poorly trained, or if they are routing or something.

So, no, you don't send a squad of swordmen against pikemen or something. this isn't like RTS paper vs vs rock vs scissors mechanics. They will just get slaughtered. Pike sqaures can be like 3~5 pikes deep.

You attach swordsmen to your pike formation, or have your pikemen carry secondary weapons instead.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Battle_of_Kappel_detail.jpg


Title: 1548 depiction of a Zweihänder used against pikes in the Battle of Kappel

IIRC, the pikemen are the Zürich, who were disordered after being lured into crossing a hedge.

[Kane0]

But swords, spears and chains would all be sort of inadequate when taking on a dragon, if you think about it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfyU1mOZ1E).

So sure, why not let that length of chain be as good as other options on that weapon table. Its all about the fun after all.

Martial 1d6 bludgeoning, two handed finesse.

[Malifice]

But swords, spears and chains would all be sort of inadequate when taking on a dragon, if you think about it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfyU1mOZ1E).

So sure, why not let that length of chain be as good as other options on that weapon table. Its all about the fun after all.

Martial 1d6 bludgeoning, two handed finesse.

Gimme a crossbow any day. And a hunded other people with crossbows too.

[-Jynx-]

sounds like it might work for someone wearing steel gauntlets. sounds like an exceptionally poor idea for anyone not wearing them. also sounds remarkably like what you've got is a crappier, more expensive version of a spear that is not balanced properly in the first place for thrusting. i'm not certain that "i can use my sword like a poorly-balanced spear" is a compelling argument in favour of the sword.

A few things... You are COMPLETELY talking from inexperience, which is fine, but don't get snarky with me because of your own ignorance. You do not need steel gauntlets to halfsword. Look it up. Do gloves help? Absolutely! Can you do it barehanded? Yes you can (in this case of half swording you will still have your main hand on the hilt, the other hand resting half way up the blade which helps direct the point, and reduce the length of the weapon you aren't grabbing it as hard as you can....). You also must have never held a german or italian longsword because they are balanced PERFECTLY for thrusting. (In fact their thrusting power is what separates them so much from say... a two handed messer) So no it isn't a "poorly balanced spear".


again, the spear has a haft which is not a blade, which will provide better grip, which you can choke up on to any point you choose, and has a balancing counterweight at the back to help make the tip easier to maneuver.

Sure you can choke up on a spear, but the length of the shaft of the spear is dangling behind you. It doesn't alleviate the problem that indoors or in tight areas that spear will bang against walls, trees, etc... It's a great weapon on battlefield where there are lots of open area for spears to take advantage of their length, but a sword is far superior in closer confines.


also, from what i can tell in my brief research, the technique was developed because a sword was crap at getting through full plate armour in the first place unless you grabbed it with both hands and thrust at a weak point, not because it was intended for close-quarters combat specifically.


There's two ways to face plate for starters when you are placing both hands on the blade in a half-swording technique in where you use the cross guard or pommel to act as an improvised mace/hammer since stabbing at plate won't do you much good. However you can halfsword (as I mentioned above) with a hand on the hilt and a hand on the blade for improved thrusting which in this case will help FAR more in a tight area than your spear will (not just against plate). I think there is a youtube video that may explain the concept to you.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo

Not a huge fan of the guy, but it's informational enough that you'll get the idea.

[Coidzor]

It's not like gauntlets are particularly rare in D&D Land at any rate.

We've practically got gauntlets coming out of our gills.

[N810]

Did you see Skulgrim's other video on spears? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJAykL20Sc4

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm going to be imagining the guy folding the chain double because the alternatives are making it a reach weapon, which is kind of ridiculous when you try imagining it, or modeling it like double wielding flails, and I don't think we want to go dual wielding on this one. So we can model it as a single flail. Stats for a flail are 1d8 bludgeoning 2 lbs no special properties. Since this is an improvised weapon it can't be better than that, or else everyone would be fighting with random garbage. But you could tweak it and swap some disadvantages for advantages. I'd say the best options are probably 1d8 bludgeoning 4 lbs (some extra weight for flavor) or 1d10 bludgeoning 6 lbs heavy two handed (although I don't really see how this thing would be easier to swing with two hands. I would not make it a finesse weapon. We're talking about a large dude clubbing people to death with an end of chain here. If you're really feeling creative you could model the chain like a flail and an improvised shield, where one part is held between his two hands for blocking and the rest of it hangs out of his main hand for flailing. In that case use the 1d8 bludgeoning 4 lbs stats and add a +1 to AC (a normal shield adds +2 but also weights 6 lbs, both cost a hand).

If not having a handle is a problem I'd wrap a part of the chain in sturdy cloth, works just fine.

EDIT: O, and martial. Because a flail is martial, and this if anything is harder to use effectively. A single blow is straightforward, a whole fight is not.

[-Jynx-]

Did you see Skulgrim's other video on spears? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJAykL20Sc4

I have, which further denotes the effectiveness of spears on the battlefield (which I've never disputed) and how good they can be when you have the ample space to use them. Obviously it goes into detail of other options that can deal with a spear (i.e. shield) but I won't go into a "Which fighter with x weapon is better!?" because that will always come down to skill and environment. In this case the spear when indoors, or a very small/obstructed environment is at a huge disadvantage due to its size compared to say swords.

Every weapon has its place, my overall point was that spears don't need more love in dnd. They get plenty because nothing burdens them in tight places.

[SharkForce]

just curious, if spears are supposed to only be useful in open terrain, then why is their primary use in densely packed formations with little to no room sideways, frequently several ranks deep. that is to say, if the weapon truly requires wide open space to be used as is being claimed, then why is it that just about every army that used spears made the immediate decision to guarantee that their spearmen would have no open space.

are we to assume that for thousands of years every single soldier in every army from the lowest rank all the way up to generals were too stupid to figure out that they need open space? i mean, that seems just a little bit far-fetched to me. and, if spears need wide open space, then why would you send in swordsmen to "break them up"? i mean, if they can only fight effectively in open terrain, wouldn't it be better to *not* break them up?

[Alikat]

I know next to nothing about real world combat but I've played a lot of total war games. A dense formation of well trained spear men > almost anything else. Only exception I can think of is mounted archers. Kiting too OP. Course total war games also have given me the belief cavalry is seriously overrated but Hollywood always tries to tell me otherwise.

[-Jynx-]

just curious, if spears are supposed to only be useful in open terrain, then why is their primary use in densely packed formations with little to no room sideways, frequently several ranks deep. that is to say, if the weapon truly requires wide open space to be used as is being claimed, then why is it that just about every army that used spears made the immediate decision to guarantee that their spearmen would have no open space.

are we to assume that for thousands of years every single soldier in every army from the lowest rank all the way up to generals were too stupid to figure out that they need open space? i mean, that seems just a little bit far-fetched to me. and, if spears need wide open space, then why would you send in swordsmen to "break them up"? i mean, if they can only fight effectively in open terrain, wouldn't it be better to *not* break them up?

You are mistaking warfare and skirmishes. Spears when placed close to each other (usually coupled with a shield) in formation form a great wall. That phalanx stands so many rows deep so that many long spear points can be at the front to impale as many poor fools that go charging head first into the phalanx. All of my points have no been on the effectiveness of spears on a battlefield(the phalanx in particular is a great military tactic, as long as it doesn't get flanked those spear points are only good facing forward that same formation falls apart when you're attacked from the sides or behind because those spears can't fight like that). However you will also note that most of those spear men did not carry JUST spears. They also had swords. Once one phalanx hit another, or if the phalanx fell apart soldiers had to fall back to swords or other shorter melee weapons because their long spears were not meant for wide spread combat (they are meant for moving forward).

In the case of DnD you are typically sojourning a city, raiding a dungeon, hunting in a thick forest, etc. Areas where the spears extra length becomes more of a burden than a boon. Long spears are just frankly hard to maneuver in tight places. If you're out in a field where you can truly utilize large sweeps, fast retreats, and never have to worry about the front or back end of your spear banging or snagging on something then great! You're spearmen has the advantage! If you are fighting in a house, or small streets of a city, hallways in a dungeon with lots of turns and rooms, you're at a disadvantage because your spear is liable to not maneuver well in those tight places. Most swords on the other hand handle much better in those scenarios because they are shorter than a spear.

[Malifice]

I know next to nothing about real world combat but I've played a lot of total war games. A dense formation of well trained spear men > almost anything else. Only exception I can think of is mounted archers. Kiting too OP. Course total war games also have given me the belief cavalry is seriously overrated but Hollywood always tries to tell me otherwise.

Cavalry is amazing against archers.

You can start out of range and close fast not getting too many volleys in on the way. The archers need to adjust for the speed of your charge (those volleys arch through the air with some serious flight time) and lead the volleys substantially. They can't outrun you either.

Once you disrupt them (or are on them) it's over very quickly.

Of course you always place your spearman in front of your archers (and your archers are on the highest ground available). The spear regiments protect your archers from cavalry charges.

Best way of taking out the spears is with archers or swordsman. If your enemy has the high ground you won't be able to deploy your archers offensively (they'll be outranged by the enemy archers on the high ground) so your best bet is to send in the heavy infantry first and keep your archers in reserve (to cover your infantry if they get routed and stop any sweeping advances). It's a dirty job in the infantry. The swordsman advance in heavy upper body armor (half plate if you can afford it) with shields overhead to protect them from the numerous volleys they'll get on the way in. Sadly they're almost always assaulting up hill too which slows them down even more. Their mission is to close with and clear out the spearmen, hopefully routing them through the ranks of the enemies archers. Once the spears are gone, you send in the cavalry to smash the enemy archers (and infantry) and steal all the glory.

[Hudsonian]

1st things first:

Can the argument about the real world viability of weapons please go to a different forum, or at least a different thread?


Second:
I would say that if a chain is holding a goliath, it would be a heavy sob. I'd give it 1d8 versatile (1d10), Special:
Flexible - This weapon is flexible and is thus hard to block, any attempt to block or parry renders both combatants "grappled" a successful Athletics check (contested) immediately following the attack unarms the opponent. (Note: natural weapons cannot be disarmed, the DM might impose prone instead.)

Whirlwind - Using 2 hands, the wielder may spend an action to begin swinging the chain from one end. The chain temporarily has reach and 1d12B + 1d4S damage. Each attack has a DC 10 chance of enabling the Flexible feature of this weapon. A bonus action may be used to rebuild the chain's momentum. attacks within 5ft have disadvantage and the Flexible DC increases by 5

I would say that acquiring the Weapon Master Feat. would allow proficiency. (Also, would consider it being a monk weapon. Kill Bill anyone?)

Edit: fixed "Flexible", I might also call it Wrapping, or Caught instead. Changes are italicized.

[N810]

That sounds like a really fun thematic weapon to have. :smallbiggrin: