Non-blasty sorcerer

[Human Paragon 3]

Could you make an enchanter sorcerer that competes with fey-pact warlock (no multi-classing, but any feats and races are OK). I'm thinking metamagic on enchantment spells could be pretty great. The favored soul artchetype using either the Knowledge or Trickery domain seems like a must.

[SharkForce]

enchantment doesn't work great in 5e because enchantment generally got nerfed into the ground in 5e. other forms of save-or-suck can still work quite well, however, and keeping enchantment as *one* of the things you can do is definitely an option.

[bid]

Sorcerer already has charm person and disguise self, trickery gives nothing to favored soul.

[Kryx]

Wild Mage's Bend Luck feature is quite good to build a non-blast sorc around. Focus on debilitating saves.

[Ardantis]

Even a Feylock will be using non-enchantment spells- it's just that his Patron features all mimic enchantment spells. You have access to a larger pool of debilitating spells across your disciplines, and they go well with metamagic. Don't be afraid to dabble. Plus Death spells are totally Unseelie.

[Citan]

Sorcerer already has charm person and disguise self, trickery gives nothing to favored soul.
Well, I wouldn't say that. Sure, these spells are on the sorcerer's list. But for a character concept that heavily relies on dupery, he would probably learn them anyways. So having them learnt and at the ready from his Domain since good thematically as well as mechanically, "liberating" the normal learning for other spells.

Also, the domaine brings "Pass Without Traces" and "Modify Memory" which are great for such a concept.

With that said, if OP really likes some spells from the Knowledge domain, then it's also a very good choice to take it and learn the "trickery spells" as normal. It just means less space for offensive spells.

I'd rather take Trickery though, because I'm not sure the exclusives from Knowledge domain fit the concept, but well... Tastes and all...

@OP: Multiclassing limits a bit the options. :)

FEATS
Whatever happens, Lucky feat is the first to take, to make sure your enchantment really works when it counts.

Warcaster (depending on Metamagic choice) or Resilient - Wisdom are also classics.

If you have INT high enough, I'd strongly recommend Ritual Caster - Wizard: you'll get (potentially) plenty of interesting rituals, and you can grab Find Familiar immediately. Although most enchantement spells you will know won't be touch-based, you can at least use it as a scout.
Also, all these rituals won't bring you much in the offensive/debuff field, but they will give you more freedom in how to tackle a problem.

Otherwise, Magic Initiate Warlock for Hex + cantrips seems a safe place to go.

You can also consider the Spellsniper feat if you want to engage from afar with offensive spells when you think enchantment will not work, but it's really not a priority for your concept.

METAMAGICS
For an enchanter, Heightened is a given. :)
For the second start Metamagic, I'd suggest either Subtle or Quickened.
I tend to prefer Subtle for an enchanter, as it allows you to stealthily enchant someone even in a crowd (or cast a spell while being sword&board in fight).
But Quickened can be better in some situations.
At level 10, take Twinned metamagic (why the wait? Because the cost is proportional to the spell level, so you couldn't use it well at low levels anyways, lack of sorcery points).

RACES
Not sure what to advise you... Gnome is thematically good and gives advantages for mental saving throws, but the stat increase is a waste (unless you want to take INT-based feat OR your DM allows the special deep gnome Feat which is very nice.).

Half-Elf is the "never wrong" choice, +2 CHA, +1 two other stats, two additional skills, immune to sleep and advantage against charm.

Apart from that... Don't see.
Hope that helps. :)

[DireSickFish]

I tried it but did end up going disintegrate as my level 6 spell. Focused ons ave or suck spells like fear, hold person, banishment, and hold monster. Had shield and feather fall as level 1 spells and would have unlearned feather fall if our parties go to escape tactic wasn't "Dimension door 500ft straight up and feather fall down". Heighten spell is really good at making spells stick.

There are problems with this approach however. Being so save focused legendary monsters are hard to do anything against until you can eat through there saves. Since most of these spells are concentration you are looking at casting 1 impactful spell a fight then relying on cantrip damage for the rest of it, so you can't "nova" and go all out like a blaster sorcerer.

Banishment was probably my most used combat spell. It insta kills outsiders if you can maintian concentration, and a readied action volley against anything else once combat is over usually does the trick.

The Sorcerer spell list is limited in spells that aren't blasting spells. They don't even get the bigbies line.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Well, I wouldn't say that. Sure, these spells are on the sorcerer's list. But for a character concept that heavily relies on dupery, he would probably learn them anyways. So having them learnt and at the ready from his Domain since good thematically as well as mechanically, "liberating" the normal learning for other spells.

Also, the domaine brings "Pass Without Traces" and "Modify Memory" which are great for such a concept.

With that said, if OP really likes some spells from the Knowledge domain, then it's also a very good choice to take it and learn the "trickery spells" as normal. It just means less space for offensive spells.

I'd rather take Trickery though, because I'm not sure the exclusives from Knowledge domain fit the concept, but well... Tastes and all...

@OP: Multiclassing limits a bit the options. :)

FEATS
Whatever happens, Lucky feat is the first to take, to make sure your enchantment really works when it counts.

Warcaster (depending on Metamagic choice) or Resilient - Wisdom are also classics.

If you have INT high enough, I'd strongly recommend Ritual Caster - Wizard: you'll get (potentially) plenty of interesting rituals, and you can grab Find Familiar immediately. Although most enchantement spells you will know won't be touch-based, you can at least use it as a scout.
Also, all these rituals won't bring you much in the offensive/debuff field, but they will give you more freedom in how to tackle a problem.

Otherwise, Magic Initiate Warlock for Hex + cantrips seems a safe place to go.

You can also consider the Spellsniper feat if you want to engage from afar with offensive spells when you think enchantment will not work, but it's really not a priority for your concept.

METAMAGICS
For an enchanter, Heightened is a given. :)
For the second start Metamagic, I'd suggest either Subtle or Quickened.
I tend to prefer Subtle for an enchanter, as it allows you to stealthily enchant someone even in a crowd (or cast a spell while being sword&board in fight).
But Quickened can be better in some situations.
At level 10, take Twinned metamagic (why the wait? Because the cost is proportional to the spell level, so you couldn't use it well at low levels anyways, lack of sorcery points).

RACES
Not sure what to advise you... Gnome is thematically good and gives advantages for mental saving throws, but the stat increase is a waste (unless you want to take INT-based feat OR your DM allows the special deep gnome Feat which is very nice.).

Half-Elf is the "never wrong" choice, +2 CHA, +1 two other stats, two additional skills, immune to sleep and advantage against charm.

Apart from that... Don't see.
Hope that helps. :)

It's worth noting that with CHA as their primary, Sorcerers are naturally good at the Deception skill, not to mention Persuasion and Intimidation. All of those gain advantage v. Charmed subjects. So yeah, Sorcerers are naturals for this.

[Human Paragon 3]

There are problems with this approach however. Being so save focused legendary monsters are hard to do anything against until you can eat through there saves. Since most of these spells are concentration you are looking at casting 1 impactful spell a fight then relying on cantrip damage for the rest of it, so you can't "nova" and go all out like a blaster sorcerer.



You could use Twin spell to spam enchantments against legendary monsters to force them to use their legendary saves. This is even fine if it means that it just softens them up for a blaster later. You exhausted them with your magic.

[SharkForce]

You could use Twin spell to spam enchantments against legendary monsters to force them to use their legendary saves. This is even fine if it means that it just softens them up for a blaster later. You exhausted them with your magic.

doesn't help unless you're up against 2 legendary monsters at a time. twin specifically requires you to target two different monsters.

[DireSickFish]

doesn't help unless you're up against 2 legendary monsters at a time. twin specifically requires you to target two different monsters.

What he said.

[Citan]

I tried it but did end up going disintegrate as my level 6 spell. Focused ons ave or suck spells like fear, hold person, banishment, and hold monster. Had shield and feather fall as level 1 spells and would have unlearned feather fall if our parties go to escape tactic wasn't "Dimension door 500ft straight up and feather fall down". Heighten spell is really good at making spells stick.

The Sorcerer spell list is limited in spells that aren't blasting spells. They don't even get the bigbies line.
Hey! I love that idea... I really hope my players will come up with this (or a similarly fun and crafty idea). :)

Also, you're right, the Sorcerer doesn't even have Hex or Bestow Curse (which is one of the best debuffs to have imo, because versatile and potentially non-concentration).
Reason why I love mixing Bards and Sorcerers or Bards and EK. :)
A bit off topic, but a build I like is EK 11/ Lore Bard 9, since your weapon attacks provide disadvantage on the next saving throw, perfect to pair with lvl 5 Bestow Curse on BBEG and doesn't have resource cost as Heightened.



It's worth noting that with CHA as their primary, Sorcerers are naturally good at the Deception skill, not to mention Persuasion and Intimidation. All of those gain advantage v. Charmed subjects. So yeah, Sorcerers are naturals for this.
Woah. Never noticed this. Was this mentioned in the Charm Person spell itself? Or is it somewhere else in PHB (sorry I have to ask instead of searching myself, AFB for now)?

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's in Appendix A: Conditions, p290 of the PHB

The Charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

My reading of this is that it would most likely apply to CHA related checks (Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion) although other skills might apply if the DM decides they fall into the category of "social interaction." It's rather vague, IMHO.

Also, getting advantage on Intimidation checks might be more appropriate to the Frightened condition. Again, DM's call.

[Citan]

It's in Appendix A: Conditions, p290 of the PHB

The Charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

My reading of this is that it would most likely apply to CHA related checks (Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion) although other skills might apply if the DM decides they fall into the category of "social interaction." It's rather vague, IMHO.

Also, getting advantage on Intimidation checks might be more appropriate to the Frightened condition. Again, DM's call.
How could I miss this? ^^
Well, thanks. I share your view on the interpretation.

As for "other social interactions", well... I happen to allow other kinds of persuasion when appropriate. For example, if a player wanted to get in good terms with a general, and made a very successful History check to remember all the great feats of the general, I would give advantage on a subsequent Persuasion check.

So, to mix in "Charmed", in this situation, I could rule that the general is so pleased with the flattery (because the charm) that you persuades him directly...
But, well, it would depend on so many things (how greater is the roll compared to the DC, how good is player's Charisma etc)... Hard to make a concrete example.

I would rule out Intimidation however, because imo this is plainly agressive behaviour, one way or another, so it can only work "against" a positive state of mind.
(I know, "magic and all", "not a physics engine", but still...)

[bid]

Well, I wouldn't say that. Sure, these spells are on the sorcerer's list. But for a character concept that heavily relies on dupery, he would probably learn them anyways. So having them learnt and at the ready from his Domain since good thematically as well as mechanically, "liberating" the normal learning for other spells.

Also, the domaine brings "Pass Without Traces" and "Modify Memory" which are great for such a concept.
That's true. I didn't think far enough ><