If you wanted "Noncasters" to compete with wizards...

[Almarck]

What kinds of class abilities would you give them?



Alright, this isn't exactly a serious thread, more or less, I just thought it would be a funny topic to ask what kinds of ridiculousness (rules and fluff) would be neccesary for a "mundane" (more specifically, noncaster or noninitiator) martially oriented character to really compete with a competent wizard in the late game without relying entirely on magic items or using UMD.

For me, I'd start with the ability that at certain levels dependent on class, purely martial characters get to multiply their range increment values by a factor of 10. At later levels, they would be able to launch attacks from cities away using nothing but a simple bow.

Also, at certain levels, they stop ignoring bonuses or penalties due to size reasons. It should be totally possible to grapple giants by binding their pinkies.





I know this is a silly thread; that's kinda the point.

Edit: just to make it clear, the goal is to have fun by proposing ludicrious ideas and having a laugh, though you're welcome to mechanically represent them.

[Rubik]

At high levels, you'd have to use this story's protagonist (http://www.fimfiction.net/story/182126/the-mighty-warrior-of-epicness) as a benchmark, sans some of the spells he uses. He does use magic, but not all that much.

[Seerow]

Being able to grapple Giants is a start.
Being able to grapple an army of giants simultaneously is more in line with what you need to compete with high level magic.


Being able to shoot someone in another city with a bow is a nice start.
Being able to level a city with nothing but your bow is more in line with what you need to compete with magic.


Being able to hulk jump a mile or more is a nice start.
Being able to hulk jump to any point in the multiverse you want to be (including other planes) is what you need to compete with magic.



Realistically, making non-casters compete with magic just isn't something likely to happen or make sense. The best bet is carving out a niche for them, and actually protecting that niche. Especially if you just decide that everyone is magical to some degree, and "casters" focus that energy extrinsically while non-casters focus it intrinsically, thus restricting a lot of the best buffing, defensive, and shapechanging abilities to non-casters (or preventing casters from using it on themselves, since the act of casting a spell requires targetting something other than themself. So a caster can totally turn a Fighter into a Gorilla, but turning himself into a Gorilla requires a completely different discipline of focus, and having that capability in conjunction with his casting is pretty unlikely).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm recalling what early editions did which had fighting men start accruing followers and warbands; there's a reason we have terms like 'conqueror' and 'warlord' while we have to conglomerate terms such as 'witch-king', and that we have to specify that someone is a leader and a great spellcaster.

So, they don't personally have the power to bend the laws of nature to their whim, but they would certainly be able to exert his will on a wide scale.

[ranagrande]

One way to balance them would be to increase the XP required for levels in caster classes. Perhaps set it so that the Wizard gets to 20th level in the same time it takes the Fighter to get to 100.

[Almarck]

I think some of you guys might be missing the point of this thread.

I'm not talking realistic solutions or baselines. I'm talking silly and unreasonable things you would give martial characters so that they could compete against wizards at mid to high levels.

So yeah, jumping to other planes is totally acceptable and legit. As is grappling armies of giants.

More specifically... I want zany ideas for what martials should be able to do. The goal is quite essentially to have fun proposing off the wall ideas and laughing at the ridiculousness of some of them.

[YossarianLives]

+1000 to all d20 rolls. Even with this, spellcasters would likely still outstrip them at high levels if they were properly optimized.

[Rubik]

I think some of you guys might be missing the point of this thread.

I'm not talking realistic solutions or baselines. I'm talking silly and unreasonable things you would give martial characters so that they could compete against wizards at mid to high levels.

So yeah, jumping to other planes is totally acceptable and legit. As is grappling armies of giants.

More specifically... I want zany ideas for what martials should be able to do. The goal is quite essentially to have fun proposing off the wall ideas and laughing at the ridiculousness of some of them.The story I linked to is full of zaniness.

[Almarck]

The story I linked to is full of zaniness.
hence why I said some of you.
The premise alone is pretty silly and deserves a thumbs up.

Is that FF Gilgamesh?

[Tvtyrant]

Let me see...
Ability to teleport to a desired location without seeing it, and without being blocked.
Ability to counterspell anything as a free action (since the Invoke Magic solution to AMFs doesn't work).
Ability to dispel/disjunction at-will.
Ability to travel time at will.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.

Well, they'll need some useful defenses vs. status effects. Something like ...Bull Through It (Ex): After suffering a non-instant status effect, a character with at least five levels in full BAB classes can make a Fort save (DC = the save DC the effect had, or would have had if the effect allowed a save) to ignore the effect for 1 round. This additional save may be repeated each round to continue to ignore the effect, but only so long as the martial character continues to succeed on the save.

Shake It Off (Ex): As Bull Through It, except that two consecutive successful Fort saves allows the character to ignore the effect with no further saves required, and this also applies to Instantaneous effects such as Flesh to Stone, ability damage, ability drain, and similar (but not HP damage or death). Requires ten levels in full BAB classes.

Sleep It Off (Ex): Eight hours after succumbing to an effect of any sort, a character with at least fifteen levels in full BAB classes may make a fort save (DC = the save DC the effect had, or would have had if the effect allowed a save) to negate the effect. This applies to any deleterious effect (but only with respect to the character), including things like death by HP damage, [Death] spells, Disintegrate, and similar. If the save fails, then the character can repeat the save once every eight hours, up to a number of times equal to the character's natural Constitution score (so the Amulet of Health doesn't impact how many saves you can make, but nor does the Con drain you're suffering). The save DC for HP damage is 10 + 1/2 the source's effective BAB + the source's effective Str modifier.
Some way to negate ranged attackers:Come at Me! (Ex): As a standard action, a character with at least five levels in full BAB classes can challenge a creature (intelligence is irrelevant for this, but the target must be able to perceive the character). This forces the target to make a Will save (DC = 10 + BAB + Str) or be compelled to come at the character, and stay within the character's melee range for one round per point of BAB. Within the range restriction, the target is permitted to do anything they choose, other than move away. If a target fails a save to multiple such effects, then the target is compelled to go to the character with the highest DC.A way to grapple the biggest baddies out there:Size Doesn't Matter (Ex): As a non-action, for every four full levels in full BAB classes, you may treat a target as one size category smaller for purposes of grappling, tripping, bull-rushing, and other sorts of combat manuevers with respect to you. Thus, a 20th level human Fighter grappling a Huge Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) treats the Titan as Diminutive for purposes of grappling... and thus, the Titan is rolling 1d20+24 (rather than 1d20+44) to attempt to escape the grapple.... and some way to negate defensesThere You Are (Ex): A character with at least five levels in full BAB classes can attempt to penetrate magical defences and countermeasures. As a move action, the character can make a BAB check (DC = 11 + the caster level of the effect) for each ongoing effect on a target in melee reach. If successful, the character can ignore that effect for the remainder of the round - the effect is not actually dispelled or suppressed, but any further actions the character takes against the target are resolved as though that effect did not exist for one round. Specific effects of this are up to the DM, but this specifically means that a character under the effects of Delay Death dies anyway if that effect is ignored, and a Wizard who is using Astral Projection will find that the wounds inflicted on their astral body mirrored on their real one when they return if the Astral Projection was ignored.

I'm Done With Your Tricks (Ex): As an attack action, a character with at least ten levels in full BAB classes can attempt to end an ongoing magical effect within melee reach. To do so, the character makes a BAB check (DC 11 + the caster level of the effect, or the HD of the originator if no caster level is specified) to dispel the effect. If it is a continuous effect that requires no action to use (such as the Unearthly Grace of a Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm) or the Dark Blessing of a Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm)), then the effect is suppressed for 1d4 rounds.Edit: Oh yes, also some way to hurt the master of a minion:I Will Hit You So Hard Your Master Will Feel It (Ex): As a Swift action, a character with at least five levels in full BAB classes can cause the link between a magically created, summoned, or controlled minion to resonate for one round. This resonance causes the effects of There You Are, I'm Done With Your Tricks, and melee damage to also apply to the master of the magically created or magically controlled minion. Thus, a Wizard who Planar Binds a Pit Fiend and sends it after a martial character may find wounds appearing on the Wizard's body as the martial character battles the Pit Fiend, or the personal defences of the Wizard simply vanishing. Likewise, a minion under a Charm or Domination effect, a commanded undead, a simulacrum, a golem, or almost anything else could very easily backfire on the Wizard.

[Rubik]

hence why I said some of you.
The premise alone is pretty silly and deserves a thumbs up.

Is that FF Gilgamesh?Yes. Yes, it is.

Well, kinda. Cosplayer goes to a convention as Gilgamesh. Wakes up in a fantasy pony world AS Gilgamesh. And he ends up every bit as kooky and epic as Gilgamesh.

And he's not the only cosplayer-turned-character out there, either.

It's funny, well-written, and gets surprisingly deep at times.

[daremetoidareyo]

Scaling magic resistance would be a great start. Iron heart surge is a great example of a range personal dispel magic that is thematically in season.


To keep up kind of with casters, PC would need the following:
Character chooses a number of metamagic feats equal to his level/4. He can apply the effects of those feats 1 per day per feat on a melee or ranged attack with a weapon or unarmed. Multiple effects can be piled onto the same attack.

At 3rd level, 1 per day, increase any stat by +4 for class level/round or Hide in plain sight for class/level per round. This increases to 2 per day at 8th level and 3 times per day at 13th.

At 5th level, 2 per day, increase ranged damage bonus on ranged weapon without area affect by 1d6/level, or 1 per day trade favors via messenger birds for access to a flying mount capable of carrying character.

At 7th level, 1 per day, Ability to totally heal to max HP and restore all ability damage and status effects cost 100 xp per level until level 12, where it costs 250 xp per character level OR ability to receive the beneficial effects of increasing or decreasing the character's level/5 size categories, round up until the end of the encounter, 1 per day per 8 levels.

At 9th, character can craft magic items via skill checks that can have magical properties, Or character can choose special EX attack that they have witnessed and can use it as if they were a monster of equivalent HD performing the EX attack. Also, 3 times per day Character can choose treat his attacks as if they were any single energy type that they desire for the entire duration of an encounter.

At 11th level Character can hit someone and they must pass a fort save vs. damage dealt or die, 1/day OR 2/day character can take an extra swift action, move action and standard action during his turn.

At 13th level, Character can choose the number for all die rolls for 1 entire full round for everyone that he can reach with a single range interval of a ranged weapon on his person, or within a 15' radius, whichever is greater, Costs xp equal 200 x class level.

At 15th level, 1/day Character can "take backsies" The entire effect of the previous round are erased, but everyone else chooses the same exact actions except the character.




Everyday, the martial chooses their feats for the day. Certain classes can leave a slot(s) open to be filled in later. This replaces all of the bonus feats of the fighter.

Prestige classes that advance casting per spell level instead advance vancian feat using levels.

Bonus fighter Feats per Day/Feats Known


Level
0lvl
Feat Taxes
1st
Feats
2nd
Fancy Feats
3rd
Survivalizing


1st
1
-
-
-


2nd
2
-
-
-


3rd
2
1
-
-


4th
3
2
-
-


5th
3
2
-
-


6th
3
2
1
-


7th
4
2
1
-


8th
4
3
1
1


9th
4
3
2
1


10th
4
3
2
1


11th
5
3
2
1


12th
5
3
3
2


13th
5
3
3
2


14th
5
4
3
2


15th
5
4
3
3


16th
6
4
3
3


17th
6
4
4
3


18th
6
5
4
3


19th
6
5
4
4


20th
6
5
4
4



0 level: FEAT TAXES: point blank shot, mounted combat, dodge, mobility, expertise, improved unarmed attack, quick draw, alertness, iron will, great fortitude, toughness, proficiencies, weapon focus, endurance, skill trick, other lame feats that are not very fun that offer little diversity to game play

1: all other fighter feats, including 0 level feats, except tactical feats, initiator feats, or weapon style feats.

2: Initiator maneuvers or stances, tactical feats, weapon style feats, Exchange 1 feat in this category for the ability to be treated one size category larger if it is beneficial for 1 day (maximum = two size categories) without actually growing in size.

3: Stackable DR Magic 2+ 1/5 level, SR 10+ BAB, access to 1 skill epic usage, luck feat, Fighter ACFs that trade bonus feats.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not talking realistic solutions or baselines. I'm talking silly and unreasonable things you would give martial characters so that they could compete against wizards at mid to high levels.
Stealth taken to extremes. Stealthy enough to steal the robe off the Wizard's body (without them noticing) is a start. So stealthy you can steal the memories right out of the Wizard's brain is enough to compete with magic.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
The Sh... what was I going to say just now? I forgot. :smallconfused:

[ranagrande]

Yes, I see I was missing the point of the thread entirely.

Anyway, non-casters should be able to dual wield other characters, which can take all of their own actions while being used as weapons.

[Rubik]

A 20th level fighter should be able to wield...THIS WEAPON!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/thegreatestnightmare/DireTarrasque.jpg

[ben-zayb]

Port Exalted to 3.5?

Alternatively, give mundanes an ability to this effect:
Mundane Contrivance: You are capable of doing anything that can be justified, however weakly, as an Extraordinary or a Natural ability.

Edit
Special: Feel free to cite examples from mythologies and or fiction, however inaccurately they may be represented as "mundane" (e.g. Sun Wukong, Hercules, etc.)

[OldTrees1]

You want to do what!? Sure, make a skill check:
Whenever a non caster wants to do something they don't explicitly have the ability to do, have them roll a skill check.

I want to fly up to that ledge. Sure, make a Jump check
I want to topple that wall of force. Sure, make a Knowledge Architecture and Engineering check.
I want to go to the ethereal plane. Sure, make a Use Rope check.
I want to grapple an army. Sure, make a Use Rope check.
I want to contact an Elder Evil. Sure, make a Use Rope check.
I want to ... Just, make your Use Rope check already.

[Eldan]

The ability to punch things unpunchable by lesser men. You cut the concept of mind control out of someone. You headbutt fear into submission. You crush pain with your bare hands and keep going. Sleep? Hammertime.

[Telonius]

Opposite Day (Ex) Once per day, per point of base attack bonus, the character may treat any incoming spell as having SR: Yes (if it normally is SR: No). The character also has the option to change the targeted save to any save the character would like. If the spell normally does not offer a save, the spell is negated with a save of the character's choice.

I know you are, but what am I? (Ex) As an immediate action, once per day per point of base attack bonus, when an opponent uses a Polymorph, Shapechange, or similar spell or ability, the character can use the same ability in retaliation. This ability can allow the character to change into any form the opponent is capable of changing into.

Base! (Ex) Once per day, per point of base attack bonus, the character may touch an object, causing a 20-foot radius antimagic sphere to appear.

I'm rubber and you're glue (Ex) The character may turn any incoming spell back upon the caster. This ability can affect a number of spell levels per day equal to the character's BAB.

[Barstro]

The best bet is carving out a niche for them, and actually protecting that niche.

I think it really comes down to what you mean by your original question.

If you are trying to find a way for mundanes to do all that casters can do, then I think you are out of luck. If, however, you are asking that question in the same way you would ask "how can archers compete with men-at-arms" then it boils down to finding roles that one is good at where the other fails.

My go-to for something like this is to treat the classes differently when it comes to magic. Casters have a strong tie to magic; they are effected more by it (for good or bad). Mundanes are not as effected by it (much more resistant to offensive spells, draining auras do not effect them, etc).

[Grod_The_Giant]

You need something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!). You need to be able to:

Charm anyone who gets close, and Dominate anyone you talk to.
Read thoughts through sheer observational skill
Punch people so hard you wipe their minds
Sever the planar boundaries with your sword
Grapple a giant, rip off his limbs, use him as a bludgeoning weapon and/or hurl him over the horizon
Recover hit points and status conditions with Heal checks
Turn peasants into fanatically-devoted warriors with an inspiring speech
Perfectly reconstruct past events from imperceptibly tiny clues
Hulk-leap your way to the other side of the planet
Just say "no" to spells and attacks
Shoot a guy in the face from a thousand miles away
Redirect rivers and build castles with your own two hands
Destroy castles with a single punch
Pin creatures not just to the ground, but to the material plane

[LudicSavant]

The most important thing would be to be able to pass something like the Same Game Test, rather than replicating blow for blow what a Wizard can pull. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_%28DnD_Guideline%29. I say this because "beat the wizard" turns out to be a rather impossible goal unless we specify just how optimized the wizard is, since the power level can range all the way up to "infinite" depending on what's allowed.

There are honestly a lot of places where fighters could be better than wizards without ruffling anyone's feathers, but just aren't. Accuracy, initiative, itemization, etc. There is a whole lot of design space for closing the gap that can be explored before fighters start making certain audiences angry about fighters being "too magical."

[yellowrocket]

In seriousness, get back to faster level progression for fighters. Literally getting levels and bonuses faster than a caster begins to cut that gap.

I think giving the magic resistance to all type. Including saves on no save spells at a point would go a long way to making them closer. Are they ever going to be equal, not really, but those kinds of things would go a long way to making them closer without taking away from what casters do in combat.

[Segev]

Clearly, the solution is to give non-casters enormous bonuses to Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy against casters, so they can just bully the latter into doing whatever the former want!

[Gemini476]

Nice Things (Ex): A Fighter has a pool of Nice Things. They may have a number equal to their BAB at any time, and regenerate them with a good night's sleep (or ludicrous amounts of alcohol).

Nice Things can be spent to, one-to-one, cause a target within line of sight to:

Succeed on a check
Fail on a check
Roll the highest possible result on a die
Roll the lowest possible result on a die

Nice Things can be spent at any time, even after dice have been rolled and results have been determined. Spending a Nice Thing is not an action.

This probably isn't anywhere near enough to equalize things, but it's a fun little thing. Maybe you could add something about determining degrees of success and allowing saves for non-save things or something, I dunno. Also probably spell resistance with ways to get around SR: No.

I'd also recommend never saying "no, that's not possible" when it comes to skill checks, so you could have people passing the DC:NI Jump test to go to Sigil from the Elemental Plane of Fire.

[nedz]

Play E6
Only allow non-casters to pick Leadership — they can then have their own pet casters
Create a Fumble table for spells

[Flickerdart]

Monk Thread (Ex): Once per round, the noncaster is able to change a rule into one that benefits him.

[Cirrylius]

The ability to punch things unpunchable by lesser men. You cut the concept of mind control out of someone. You headbutt fear into submission. You crush pain with your bare hands and keep going. Sleep? Hammertime.
That's certainly tropey, at least. "STOP SOBBING, it's just the mummy's despair! Get back in there!"

*smack*

How about a free buff that lets the fighter make an unarmed attack roll to aid other, especially in a Will save, or to grant a second save against a single status effect. Call it "On Your Feet, Soldier!"- an Ex Morale power usable only against other martial classes to push the camaraderie-of-soldiers angle, or against only non-martial classes to give the fighter a kind of grounding, stabilizing, pull-yourself-together aura, to make them stand out from the crowd of hippies and half-trained crusaders and sneakabouts and magicians in dresses that they have to put up with.

Obviously not good for optimization, but adding conditional buffs on these lines, even small ones, would improve versatility and image- it's empowering knowing that you're more than the front line smash-magnet, that even those quicker and smarter and more skillful than you are still much less used to physical confrontation, and need your expertise

[Eldan]

Wouldn't "Monk Thread" be an endless bag of partially charged wands?

[Almarck]

Good work everyone. I like several of the suggestions here.

Jack's list of Ex abilities is pretty funny to read. You know, I think the usual tactic of ice assassin span from across realities might actually outright be useless against such a high level martial because the abilities seem like they are the ideal counters to them.

I find it also hilarious that Grod had a class prepped up and ready to go for this thread since last year. Well done.




Play E6
Only allow non-casters to pick Leadership — they can then have their own pet casters
Create a Fumble table for spells


Uh, nedz, I respect your work over sorting out the bugs in 3.5, but I feel that you might have been rather hasty with your post as A. The goal is specifically martials against mid to high level wizards and B. I want people to propose silly and unreasonable ideas to empower fighters and other martial characters. I think I have stated these things earlier on in the thread. If not, then I perhaps should clarify it better.

[Eldan]

That's certainly tropey, at least. "STOP SOBBING, it's just the mummy's despair! Get back in there!"
*smack*"

How about a free buff that lets the fighter make an unarmed attack roll to aid other, especially in a Will save, or to grant a second save against a single status effect. Call it "On Your Feet, Soldier!"- make it usable only against other martial classes to push the camaraderie-of-soldiers angle, or against only non-martial classes to give the fighter a kind of grounding, stabilizing, pull-yourself-together aura, to make them stand out from the crowd of hippies and sneakabouts and magicians in dresses that they have to put up with.

I considered for a while that perhaps, to be tropey, honourable fighting types should be the only ones with a high will save, because they have the virtue to resist temptation, while magicians and rogues fail all the time at that.

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't "Monk Thread" be an endless bag of partially charged wands?
That was just one monk thread of many; most of them rely on people trying to argue for nonsense interpretations of rules.

Also, we can do:
Fighter Thread (Ex): At the noncaster's option, he may don the ultimate defense: no spellcaster can engage him in combat. Whenever such a challenge is made, the noncaster can always conjure up an excuse or shirk away, and then obfuscate the retreat to avoid any consequences.

[Almarck]

Also, we can do:
Fighter Thread (Ex): At the noncaster's option, he may don the ultimate defense: no spellcaster can engage him in combat. Whenever such a challenge is made, the noncaster can always conjure up an excuse or shirk away, and then obfuscate the retreat to avoid any consequences.


I can just imagine this....

Lich: Who are you?
Monk (because why not): No one important.
*monk walks off*
*Lich shrugs.*
Lich: I wonder who that guy was...


*a week later*
Lich: Where did I put my phylactery? I can't seem to find it.

[Jack_Simth]

Jack's list of Ex abilities is pretty funny to read. You know, I think the usual tactic of ice assassin span from across realities might actually outright be useless against such a high level martial because the abilities seem like they are the ideal counters to them.That was what you wanted, was it not? You wanted a high level martial character that can go toe-to-toe with a high-level caster (Bull Through It / Shake it Off / Sleep it Off to negate spells, Come At Me to get the caster in reach, There You Are to actually hit the caster, and I Will Hit You So Hard Your Master Will Feel It to make magical minions unhelpful), and also keep up in a party (which means being able to do mean things to that Colossal dragon (Size Doesn't Matter), bypass defences (There You Are, I'm Done With Your Tricks), and deal with things that are out of reach (Come at Me!)).

[Eldan]

How about this. Give it as a feat or a mid-to-high level ToB maneuver.

Jump-Tackle
As a standard action, roll a jump check, then immediatey move five times the check result in feet in a straight line in any direction. During this jump, you may grapple any creature you move by, taking them with you to the end of the jump.
If you end your jump in the air, you fall as normal, though you can drop the grappled creature in such a way that they can not make tumble or jump checks to avoid falling damage, or catch themselves if they can fly. Additionally, you can throw them into the ground with great force, adding another 1d6*your strength modifier to the falling damage.
If the line of a jump meets a wall or other solid obstacle, your jump ends at the wall. The grappled creature is slammed into the wall, taking 1d6 damage, plus another 1d6 damage for every five feet your jump would have continued after the wall. If you wish, you may also roll a strength check agaisnt the obstacle's break DC, slamming the creature through the obstacle if successful.


Not quite up there with making you equal to a caster, sure, but should be quite fun, in a shonen anime kind of way.

[noob]

And an Aleax of the caster controlled by the caster comes to fight you and he fused with an ice assassin of you(that the aleax made).
You can not possibly damage it and not only he hits you as much efficiently as you could do but he can use DMM quickened stuff 100 times per round and also shape-shifted into something 100000000 times stronger than you before he came to you and he also have a magical + infinite axe(he was so rich he did not cared about weapon choice).

[JW86]

A few ideas came to mind straight away.

Cut an incoming fireball/AoE in half with their sword, protecting them and all allies behind them.

Roar so loud it deafens spellcasters and affects their concentration.

Rip an Evard's Black Tentacle out of the floor and choke the caster with it.

Deflect/redirect an Enervation with their shield back at the caster.

Likewise, sweep aside Solid Fog, Cloudkill with their weapon or by taking a realllly big lungful of air, and blowing it out.

Gain "Mettle" at a certain level automatically.

[Flickerdart]

Gain "Mettle" at a certain level automatically.
Mettle sucks - there are remarkably few "save partial" Will and Fortitude effects where the "partial" is any sort of threat. From SRD:

Finger of death: 3d6+CL damage
Sound burst: 1d8 damage
Phantasmal killer: 3d6 damage
Destruction: 10d6 damage
Disintegrate: 5d6 damage
Holy smite/Chaos hammer/etc: Half of 5d8 damage
Fear/cause fear/etc: Shaken for a round
Demand: Receive a sending
Antipathy: -4 Dex penalty while handling object
Recall death 5d6 damage
Inflict pain: -2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, and skills
Inflict spells: Half damage


The only things that aren't "pitiful amount of damage nobody cares about" are shaken for a round, -2 penalty on attacks and some checks, and temporary -4 Dexterity.

[Almarck]

And an Aleax of the caster controlled by the caster comes to fight you and he fused with an ice assassin of you(that the aleax made).
You can not possibly damage it and not only he hits you as much efficiently as you could do but he can use DMM quickened stuff 100 times per round and also shape-shifted into something 100000000 times stronger than you before he came to you and he also have a magical + infinite axe(he was so rich he did not cared about weapon choice).

Excellent. Now we have a nice scenario Anyone care to come up with a counter? What kinds of ludicrous abilities are needed to beat this level of cheese?

[Flickerdart]

Excellent. Now we have a nice scenario Anyone care to come up with a counter? What kinds of ludicrous abilities are needed to beat this level of cheese?
Even Then (Ex): As a standard action, roll a damage roll, as though you were making an attack. Then subtract the result from the hit points of one creature or object within 5 feet per level. This is not an attack nor damage and cannot be mitigated or reduced.

[Eldan]

I will not

Requirement: good alignment.

You are so virtuous, whenever an Aleax is made of you, instead of attacking you, it immediately joins your side and fights as your battle brother.

[noob]

"You are so virtuous, whenever an Aleax is made of you, instead of attacking you, it immediately joins your side and fights as your battle brother. "
Except the aleax is the one of the caster(and he used a control construct ability) and he fused with an ice assasin of you(which is not an aleax).
The thing is that fighters should get blanket win like "if you fill the next conditions all your opponents are defeated even if the rules says otherwise"
with as conditions:
1: You are not under the control of a caster
2: You do not have been made by a caster
3: You are not a caster.

Then you give them immunity to everything annoying them.

[ben-zayb]

Meh, I rather skip all the beaten to death intermediate measures and countermeasures and just reiterate my earlier plan:


Alternatively, give mundanes an ability to this effect:
Mundane Contrivance: You are capable of doing anything that can be justified, however weakly, as an Extraordinary or a Natural ability.Pretty much encompasses any situation, even Superboy's reality-punch.

[torrasque666]

"You are so virtuous, whenever an Aleax is made of you, instead of attacking you, it immediately joins your side and fights as your battle brother. "
Except the aleax is the one of the caster(and he used a control construct ability) and he fused with an ice assasin of you(which is not an aleax).
Deity sends Aleax after caster with an ability to control constructs, Aleax (who has "all of the statistics, abilities, qualities,racial traits, and possessions of its intended victim") doesn't shapechange into something that can't be controlled. Seems legit.

[noob]

Yes it works but you should add a clause that if the mundane is created by a caster he does not have this ability else the caster will just send you 15 ice assassins of you and one of them will probably win initiative.

[Eldan]

Okay, okay.

Soul of Burning Passion

Req: Charisma 13+

Your soul burns with such intense heat that creatures with the cold subtype can not approach to within closer than 10 ft. times your charisma score of you, unless you explicitely allow them to do so of your own free will.
Furthermore, your mental ability scores can never be drained, damaged or burned, your levels can not be drained and any creature which tries in any way to siphon off your life energy to heal itself, such as a vampire might, can not do so and instead takes 10d6 points of damage, which is half divine damage and half fire damage.
If your soul is ever trapped, such as by a trap the soul spell, it immediately destroys the vessel it is stored in in a fiery explosion dealing 10d6 poitns of fire damage in a 20 ft. radius burst and returns to your body.


That should at least help against ice assassins.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I find it also hilarious that Grod had a class prepped up and ready to go for this thread since last year. Well done.
Heh, thanks. It was spurred by a similar discussion at the time.

So anyway, I notice a common theme to a lot of these suggestions: they're specifically anti-magic. That's not the issue in question. It's not hard to make a mundane who can do the combat thing well- a Warblade charger, for instance. Certainly it's easy to homebrew something that can reliably give and take damage and status conditions.

Consider a class that gets +1/2 level to saves and AC, +level to damage, and can move up to his speed as a swift action. He can also give up the damage boost to inflict level-appropriate conditions (from sickened or prone at low levels, through blindness and nausea towards the middle, to paralysis and stunning at the upper end), heal himself (pretty much as the spell) a couple times a day, and gets flight and a tactical teleport. Seems like a guy who can hold his own in a fight, yeah? Give him some reach or reaction move-and-attack and he'll dominate the battlefield. Probably just as effective as a caster in a straight fight.

But.

Casters are not only good at fighting, they're good at everything else. That's where things go wrong, because the game- hell, the genre- isn't really set up for that. "Barbarian warlord" is a far narrower concept then "nature magic." You have to find ways for noncasters to reshape the world around them in ways that defy logic and sanity, because that's what magic is all about.

[Eldan]

Well, the rest is a bit hard. I'd include quite a few things into skills. One I already did was that sufficiently high survival or knowledge checks allow anyone to find points where the fabric of the planes is weakened and to move between them.

Now, we need ways to dominate adventures in the same way as casters do. So, teleportation, I think, can be covered by intercontinental and very precise jumping. Just include a line that a high enough jump check means that you can instinctively calculate hte ballistic arc necessary for that.

What else, what else. Minionmancy?

Hero's Call

Requirements: Barbarian or worshipper of a warrior god, charisma 11+, base attack bonus 12+

Once per day, you open the gates of valhalla. As a standard action, you call forth 10 NPC barbarians of your own race, two levels lower than you who will help you for one encounter, before vanishing. Abilities that block planar travel stop this. Instead of calling warriors, you can also call forth a famous skald of yore. The skald can be used in one of two ways:
You can profit from the skald's knowledge. This copies a Contact other Plane spell exactly. Alternatively, the skald can be summoned to read a saga of your deeds. If used in this way, the skald rolls a +30 bonus diplomacy check against all nonhostile creatures within 200 ft, thereby improving their disposition towards you. All hostile creatures are instead intimidated with a +30 bonus.

[Flickerdart]

Mundanes can reshape the world already, using Batman's superpower. It just takes longer and doesn't have explicit rules for it.

[JW86]

By swinging your weapon at an opponent, if the attack misses, it instead deals 10d6 force damage to the nearest object behind the opponent. Alternatively, just swing at an object.

I.E. you swing your sword so hard that it breaks things, even at a distance.

[Arbane]

And an Aleax of the caster controlled by the caster comes to fight you and he fused with an ice assassin of you(that the aleax made).
You can not possibly damage it and not only he hits you as much efficiently as you could do but he can use DMM quickened stuff 100 times per round and also shape-shifted into something 100000000 times stronger than you before he came to you and he also have a magical + infinite axe(he was so rich he did not cared about weapon choice).

When did D&D turn into "little kids on the playground"?

"MY ninja power is I have ALL the ninja powers!"

(I know I'm going to regret asking this, but how does a wizard control their own Aleax? IIRC, it's a being that comes into existence because the GODS THEMSELVES are so sick of your munchkinism they specificiallysend it to destroy you.)


But.

Casters are not only good at fighting, they're good at everything else. That's where things go wrong, because the game- hell, the genre- isn't really set up for that. "Barbarian warlord" is a far narrower concept then "nature magic." You have to find ways for noncasters to reshape the world around them in ways that defy logic and sanity, because that's what magic is all about.

And this is the bigger problem - D&D(3.x) magic is too powerful and too versatile.
(Yep. ALL the ninja powers.)

PS: These arguments have all happened before (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C2o97IRA92vSpNoN73JmXrnpFfnZsSiaMZTB0uhPK8A/edit#). They will all happen again.

[Thisguy_]

Sheer Bloody-Mindedness - Automatically succeed on all Will saves.

Close Call - Automatically succeed on all Dexterity saves.

Rasputin - Automatically succeed on all Fortitude saves, except those made to resist the effects of drowning.

Hold your breath - Though you still have to breathe if possible, you are immune to suffocation and can ignore effects caused by mundane or magical inhalants.

Just the way I am
Prerequisite: 15 Charisma

Affects any art piece, magical construct, or otherwise magical or nonmagical object which bears your likeness or was made to resemble you. If the object is able to see you, it is struck by the infinitesimal influence of your personality which touches your image. While it can still see you, its willpower is, by sheer brute force, overridden by yours, and it takes on your personality traits and alignment. If it has mental ability scores, replace them with yours. This has the fairly useless, but very cool, secondary effect of animating any nearby artwork of you, simply because the universe has magic to spare for the task and thinks you're bloody cool.

If your body is reanimated after your death, you may make a DC 10+Animator's caster level Charisma check to take permanent control of the undead body through sheer stubbornness. You may continue to act as long as the body functions.

Gone, but not forgotten.
Prerequisite: 17 Charisma

It's fairly unlikely at this point that anything will manage to kill you outside of the story needing it. When invariably the plot kicks in, and you're dead, really for real, this ability activates. Once, and only once, you may contact any number of people from beyond the grave by appearing as a mental image, emotional force, audible hallucinatory message, etc. (or all of the above, appearing as a representation of yourself in their minds). For the following hour, you may communicate with the target or targets anything you know, and/or provide encouragement. For every minute of time you spend providing encouragement, you may select a check, save, or ability score (individually per target or for every target) and bolster that check, save, or ability score by +10.

Alternatively, you may aggressively invade the mind(s) of one or more creatures. Regardless of whether or not they have ever seen you, you appear as a clean mental image of yourself from a period in your life of your choosing. The creatures whose minds you invade immediately know who you are. For one minute following this, you may communicate with those creatures as you please, and if you like, engage in combat with them as though you were on the material plane. If you choose to do so, any creature within 60 feet of an affected creature will see you as a translucent image of yourself from the point in your life you chose, and will be able to identify you.

Slippery son of a Bitch - While no creature is looking directly at you, you may make a stealth check to hide, even if you are in plain view. If you are hidden, you are treated as if having full concealment.

Killguy McScaryName - The mere mention of your name permits you to make an Intimidate check against anyone who hears it.

Stubborn - You now have a Will skill equal to your will save plus three, and you may put ranks in/train/become proficient in/acquire expertise with/whatever the Will skill by normal means. Against anything which requires a Will save, you may choose to make a Will skill check instead (and may generally take 10 if you are a badass).

[Almarck]

PS: These arguments have all happened before (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C2o97IRA92vSpNoN73JmXrnpFfnZsSiaMZTB0uhPK8A/edit#). They will all happen again.

Oh, I am certain that that case is kind of going to happen regardless of whether game mechanics are balanced or not. It's kind of the rule about games in general.

Still, you gotta admit, it's kinda funny what kinds of completely unreasonable things people will give martial characters when the goal is to be "Tier 1". I mean, I thought this thread would bomb, but I am laughing so hard reading all of the silly entries people are giving me.

[Thisguy_]

I mean, I thought this thread would bomb, but I am laughing so hard reading all of the silly entries people are giving me.

I may have stolen one or two of mine from certain fictional characters.

[Arbane]

I didn't see a link to The Bellator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336731-quot-Today-is-victory-over-yourself-Tomorrow-is-your-victory-over-lesser-men-quot) yet, so here it is.

[Flickerdart]

Weaboo Fightan Magic (Ex): Open the latest issue of Shonen Jump to page 1d100. Do the thing on it.

[Bucky]

Weaboo Fightan Magic (Ex): Open the latest issue of Shonen Jump to page 1d100. Do the thing on it.

That might work up to level 15. Past that, you need to break out the Chuck Norris jokes.

Chuck Norris can destroy a city with a single roundhouse kick.
Some magicians walk on water. Chuck Norris swims through land.
Chuck Norris ate the Tarrasque in one bite.
Chuck Norris once punched a Druid straight through the fourth wall.

[Eldan]

Break the Fourth Wall (Ex) Whenever a caster does something you don't like, take a newspaper and hit the player or DM controlling that caster with it and say "NO!" in a loud voice.

[Eldan]

Weaboo Fightan Magic (Ex): Open the latest issue of Shonen Jump to page 1d100. Do the thing on it.

What's in Shonen Jump at the moment? It's been a few years since I last read any Manga.

[Flickerdart]

What's in Shonen Jump at the moment? It's been a few years since I last read any Manga.
Probably chapter 50000 of Bleach.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Probably chapter 50000 of Bleach.

As my friend reads it still I can confirm this is not hyperbole. Also Ichigo has had more combat boosts handed to him for free. Again.

[Almarck]

As my friend reads it still I can confirm this is not hyperbole. Also Ichigo has had more combat boosts handed to him for free. Again.

What has he hybridized with this time?

Also, that reminds me. How many levels of "hasting" need to stack to fight at the levels of high level shonen protagonists with massive speed levels?

[Flickerdart]

Protagonism (Ex): Once per encounter, as a free action, the noncaster can profess his belief in the power of friendship and start humming a badass theme song. For the remainder of the encounter, he is immune to adverse effects of all kinds and receives a bonus on any d20 roll equal to the number of useless side characters in his retinue.

[Tvtyrant]

What has he hybridized with this time?

Also, that reminds me. How many levels of "hasting" need to stack to fight at the levels of high level shonen protagonists with massive speed levels?

He is now a Quincy/shinigami/special human/hallow born from pure bloodlines of all three.

In D&D terms that would be like a Dragon/Ethergaunt/Demon/Angel with all of the casting and spell like abilities.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What has he hybridized with this time?

Also, that reminds me. How many levels of "hasting" need to stack to fight at the levels of high level shonen protagonists with massive speed levels?

He may have lost his visor ed powers but he has a new sword since his old one was shattered but that is okay because his old sword spirit was actually a facet on the quincy king and the hollow was the real Zangetsu.
Also why is Zangetsu in my phone's dictionary but the possessive of berserker is not?

Finally: Time Stop would allow the caster to out speed even the fastest anime character.

[Jormengand]

Well, what I would do is give them the ability to ignore spells and effects at the cost of hitpoints, dodge anything, be practically invisible, regenerate quickly, and have a laundry list of stupidly powerful abilities like "You go first and can't be surprised" and "You can coup de grace practically anything", oh, and you can change which ones you know on the fly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431473-The-Mundane-Trickster-Because-who-needs-spells-%283-5-class-PEACH%29)

But in the spirit of being silly, here's another one I made which is a lot sillier. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369537-The-Champion-PEACH)

[Flickerdart]

Finally: Time Stop would allow the caster to out speed even the fastest anime character.
That gets into Weeping Angels territory - no caster but the most intensely TO'd one has unlimited time stops, and he would need to get out of one to actually progress the battle, at which point the antagonist would be able to move very, very fast indeed. So we'd have an actual turn by turn battle happening, with the wizard simultaneously trying to bury the enemy and stay alive after the counter-attack.

[Judge_Worm]

I don't know if it counts, but at high levels I let martials do crazy stuff. Cutting open a hole through the ether from one plane to the next? Sounds good. No-selling a giant's hammer? Yep. Monk wants to use his catch arrows on a magic missile? Why not. Rogue uses a hair off their own head to pick an arcane lock? Sounds reasonable. Barbarian so stubborn he literally brings himself back from the grave (temporarily) by shear force of willpower and an unstoppable rage? Makes sense. Fighter has fought so many spellcasters they can attack and stop a spell being cast (like Roy)? Definitely.

[Threadnaught]

If I wanted a non-caster that could compete with Casters and even go toe to toe with them, I'd look no further than here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276481-The-Legend-Returns-A-Mythic-Fighter-for-Manly-Men-(and-Women-And-Others-)).
Orator's Soul, Perfect Sight, Read the Wind, Shatterstrike, Walker of the World, Endless Brawn, Legendary Smith, True Seeing, Unstoppable Stride, Cloak of Legend, Man Outside Fate, Mythic Leap, Ring of Truth, A Thousand Hours, Knowledge of a Thousand Wars, Planar Sundering, Strike of Perfect Annihilation, Armour of Legend and whatever looks cool.

I couldn't see anything about whether or not the lower level Deeds could be taken at higher levels, but I assume so, otherwise I'd be sad about being unable to Rudisplork as much as I'd like to.


Pretty much that.

[Vhaidara]

Break the Fourth Wall (Ex) Whenever a caster does something you don't like, take a newspaper and hit the player or DM controlling that caster with it and say "NO!" in a loud voice.

That's not even caster/noncaster specific in my game. It's just one of the characters does this. And it's bad puns rather than doing things he doesn't like.

[Rubik]

I'm pretty sure this is relative to this thread's interests:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHA3opXjcd0

[Rubik]

This is also relative to this thread's interests:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE-zt1K560U

[Taveena]

Honestly, I made a little (very unfinished) project a while back trying to find every Wizard spell that could - without refluffing - make sense as an Ex ability, for two different definitions of Ex. Roughly, what Cu Chulainn was capable of, and what Heracles was capable of. Sort of an attempt to make a T2 Fighter.

[Jack_Simth]

Even Then (Ex): As a standard action, roll a damage roll, as though you were making an attack. Then subtract the result from the hit points of one creature or object within 5 feet per level. This is not an attack nor damage and cannot be mitigated or reduced.
If we do that, though, we still have to actually fight the aleax, and then go and slay the originating Wizard - thus, we can theoretically be overwhelmed by spammed minions. How about a pairing?

If It Has Stats... (Ex): Martial characters in fiction are known for killing the unkillable. When a character with more than 15 levels in full BAB classes should, by all rights, be unable to deal lethal damage to a target (including but not limited to an Aleax of someone else, a master transmorgifist combining the Zodar's Invulnerability with the Ocean Giant's immunity to bludgeoning, or a target with regeneration when the martial character does not have the appropriate damage type to bypass the regeneration... including when there is no bypass such as with the Tarrasque), then the martial character gets to ignore whatever is causing the inability to deal lethal damage (to continue respectively with the examples from earlier: the Aleax's Singular Enemy ability is negated with respect to the martial character and the martial character's attacks affect the Aleax normally, the Zodar's Invulnerability and/or the Ocean Giant's Immunity to bludgeoning is negated with respect to the martial character and the martial character's attacks affect the Master Transmorgifist normally, or the regeneration is negated with respect to the martial character and the martial character successfully deals lethal damage to the Tarrasque despite that not being possible normally). Note that this functions both with and through I Will Hit You So Hard Your Master Will Feel It.

I Can Cheese Too (Ex): Whenever an opponent has engaged in a technique that exceeds the normal resource allocation (including but not limited to techniques to exceed wealth by level, gain free items, bypass the restrictions on class features, permanently gain racial abilities via combining Fusion and Astral Seed with minion-controlling or minion generating effects, or any other 'tricks' the game designers - in the opinion of the DM - did not intend), then a character with at least one level in a full BAB class also gains the benefits - but not the drawbacks - of those 'tricks' without having to know how they work.

[Eldan]

I honestly quite dislike "Ignore immunity" clauses. Even just something like searing spell. It just leads to silly arms races. OR, well, it could. I don't think anyone ever inted "greater fire immunity" that made you immune to searing spell too.

[Jack_Simth]

I honestly quite dislike "Ignore immunity" clauses. Even just something like searing spell. It just leads to silly arms races. OR, well, it could. I don't think anyone ever inted "greater fire immunity" that made you immune to searing spell too.
Do you prefer permitting "neener neener" abilities? What's under discussion is:
And an Aleax of the caster controlled by the caster comes to fight you and he fused with an ice assassin of you(that the aleax made).
You can not possibly damage it and not only he hits you as much efficiently as you could do but he can use DMM quickened stuff 100 times per round and also shape-shifted into something 100000000 times stronger than you before he came to you and he also have a magical + infinite axe(he was so rich he did not cared about weapon choice).Oddly enough, there are, in fact, tricks available to do exactly what noob said. For reference, the Aleax's relevant ability:
Singular Enemy(Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.My version of the "ignore immunity" explicitly only activates when the martial character is up against something it can't do squat about otherwise. It's a "neener neener" ability bypass. That's it.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I know. I dislike both. IN fact, I'd rather see it if there weren't as many immunities around in general. +20 save bonus instead of a flat immunity to fear. Resistance 200 instead of fire immunity. That kind of thing. Leave the possibility open.

[Almarck]

Yeah, I know. I dislike both. IN fact, I'd rather see it if there weren't as many immunities around in general. +20 save bonus instead of a flat immunity to fear. Resistance 200 instead of fire immunity. That kind of thing. Leave the possibility open.

To be fair... sometimes that sort of thing kinda has to... exist, especially in regards to say... Fire Elementals being impossible to burn to death without being a god. Or giving a machine a cold. Not cold damage, I mean a disease. Some immunities have to exist.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, I know. I dislike both. IN fact, I'd rather see it if there weren't as many immunities around in general. +20 save bonus instead of a flat immunity to fear. Resistance 200 instead of fire immunity. That kind of thing. Leave the possibility open.
That sort of thing is a somewhat common house rule, and most forms are actually pretty good for the game. However, context of the thread amounts to asking what we can add to noncasters to make them compete with wizards - so we're not touching the underlying problems so much as adding abilities to noncasters to circumvent them.

[Almarck]

That sort of thing is a somewhat common house rule, and it's not a bad one. However, context of the thread amounts to asking what we can add to noncasters to make them compete with wizards - so we're not touching the underlying problems so much as adding abilities to noncasters to circumvent them.

With the requirement that all additions should be utterly ridiculous and humorous of course.

Thumbs up for the metagaming references btw. I especially like the use of the "adage", if it has stats...

[Eldan]

To be fair... sometimes that sort of thing kinda has to... exist, especially in regards to say... Fire Elementals being impossible to burn to death without being a god. Or giving a machine a cold. Not cold damage, I mean a disease. Some immunities have to exist.

Sure, sure. I'm not saying all immunities have to go, jsut that there are perhaps too many.

[Jack_Simth]

With the requirement that all additions should be utterly ridiculous and humorous of course.

Thumbs up for the metagaming references btw. I especially like the use of the "adage", if it has stats...
I try to be helpful. Sometimes, however, my signature applies.

[Pex]

I just play the game as is. The DM gives each player their moment to shine in various situations. In one combat maybe one character becomes MVP. In another combat it's a different character. It's a third character in yet another combat. Most often it's the party working together using tactics combining our characters' abilities. It also helps that we don't resent what other characters can do. It never bothers the barbarian player the wizard can fly or polymorph into a dragon. He's having fun raging and smashing things. Meanwhile, as in a recent combat, having been grappled by a neothelid he was very appreciative my character had cast Freedom of Movement on him so he wouldn't get eaten. I did not resent "having" to cast a buff spell on him. I was happy enough saving his character's life and let him kill the creature instead of casting my own whatever "I Win The Combat" spell I could've had.

[Gemini476]

What's in Shonen Jump at the moment? It's been a few years since I last read any Manga.

Well, there's currently 21 series running in Weekly Shounen Jump. Given that IIRC they go with 16 pages each or so you'll only be dealing with six-seven of them, though, depending on extra pages and whatnot.

Also, Bleach is probably a bad example since the serial pacing is glacial and you're unlikely to hit a page where someone actually does something rather than stand around and look menacing/monologue/have sad flashbacks. Also, while there's many things I'd call the Shinigami and Quincy, "mundane" is not one of them. Beyond the whole "most of their fighting powers are from an intelligent artifact/sword" thing, they also make pretty heavy use of magic.
The current big fight (unless Kubo cuts away from it) is between a guy who's sword can make children's games real and a guy whose magic sniper bullets can pierce through anything. (There's also another fight looming where a guy who can shoot swordbeams, a guy with a chain-whip-sword that is also a snake, a girl with ice magic, and a girl who is basically a blaster wizard are going to start a fight with the angel-winged Ghost Nazi Thor.)
Like I said, hardly "mundane". They're Wizard/Monks with at-will Dimension Door, varying amounts of magic, and artifact swords with spell-like abilities.


But anyway, that's not important since Bleach is currently ranked #11 as of yesterday and thus is probably at page 200 or so. You're not reaching that with a d100!

The seven first series in yesterday's issue (http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-809337/weekly-shonen-jump-rankings?pg=80#51920157), and thus the ones we actually need to care about with 1d100, are:

Assassination Classroom
Haikyu!!
Food Wars: Shokugeki no Soma
Hinomaru Sumo
My Hero Academia
Gintama
Straighten Up! Welcome to Shika High's Competitive Dance Club

One Piece is on break, for reference. Now, I don't know much about any of these. From a cursory googling, though, Haikyu!! (a volleyball manga), Food Wars (a cooking manga), Hinamaru Sumo (a sumo manga), and Straighten Up (a dancing manga) all seem pretty normal (beyond the standard exaggerate-for-dramatic-effect illustrations)?
That leaves Assassination Classroom, My Hero Academia, and Gintama. MHA is a manga about Superhero School, so we can probably ignore it unless we want an alternate suggestion where you roll 1d100 in an X-Men omnibus. Gintama has a swordsman as the main character, but I have no clue how common fights are or how exaggerated vs. down-to-earth they are. Assassination Classroom is... well, it's about a class of assassins trying to assassinate their unkillable betentacled teacher. No clue how exaggerated it is, though. (Also, there's lots of guns and whatnot. Hope you play Pathfinder!)


Really, this looks like a bad week to make that suggestion. You've got like a 16% chance to actually be good at swording dudes, and a 16% chance to, I dunno, be able to stretch out your tongue like a frog.

[Hamste]

Here is my solution, give non-casters something I like to call lleps which they tsac a certain number of times per day. Lleps would be able to do things like turn flesh to stone or heal wounds but are totally not spells despite doing everything spells can do. We now call non-casters sretsac. I think that should make the two about equal, right?

[tsj]

make all non-casting non-magical non-psionic melee charecters gestalt charecters
(that is two non-casting non-magical non-psionic melee classes)
with all bonuses counting double,

for example a fighter+fighter that gets everything in the fighter class twice
like double hitpoints, double number of feats, double gold, double skillpoints, double pure base attack, the works :smallsmile:

and then allow them to have spell resistance, acid, cold, electricity and sonic equal to their base attack bonus

and then allow them to take class features of other non-casting non-magical non-psionic melee classes and prestige classes, if they are minimum at the same charecter level or higher than the class feature of the class.

or a getting number of bonus feats muliplied by level... such as

level 1 : bonus feat
level 2 : 2 bonus feats
...
level 20 : 20 bonus feats

or fighter+fighter but with squared feats... such as

level 1 : feats x 2
level 2 : feats x 4
....
level 20 : feats x 1048576

to go really crazy... fighter^2 ...

fighter 1 * 1 = 2 = double of everything at level 1
fighter 2 * 2 = 4 = four times everything at level 2
fighter 3 * 3 = 9 = nine times everything at level 3
etc...

:smallsmile:

[Grod_The_Giant]

level 20 : feats x 1048576
There have been though experiments. The consensus was that a character with every feat in the game still wouldn't be higher than T3. I think gestalting everything from T4 down had the same effect.

[Vhaidara]

There have been though experiments. The consensus was that a character with every feat in the game still wouldn't be higher than T3. I think gestalting everything from T4 down had the same effect.

There were a few exceptions. Leadership boosted the tier (by adding a T1 to the character), and in the case of the legendary "Bonus Feat" class, which got the ability to ignore the rules limiting how many times you can take a feat (as well as all other prereqs for said feats, on top of at least 10k feats by level 10, and growing exponentially), that they could push T1 by virtue of access through feat spamming (Bind Vestige+multiples of Improved Binding, for example, on top of Martial Study/Stance until you know every maneuver in the book)

[Gemini476]

There were a few exceptions. Leadership boosted the tier (by adding a T1 to the character), and in the case of the legendary "Bonus Feat" class, which got the ability to ignore the rules limiting how many times you can take a feat (as well as all other prereqs for said feats, on top of at least 10k feats by level 10, and growing exponentially), that they could push T1 by virtue of access through feat spamming (Bind Vestige+multiples of Improved Binding, for example, on top of Martial Study/Stance until you know every maneuver in the book)

...Would knowing every maneuver really push you out of Tier 3? I kind of doubt it, to be honest.

Also, you do know that Bind Vestige doesn't actually give you all the abilities of the vestige, right? It gives you a very limited number of abilities from a very limited list.


No, what would maybe bring that guy up to Tier 2 would be through that trick that gives 9th-level spellcasting through feats. Magical Training+miscellaneous heightening abilities+Extra Slot, mainly. Although you'll still just be casting spells that you got through feats, like Mother Cyst or (IIRC) Oneiromancy.

[tsj]

There have been though experiments. The consensus was that a character with every feat in the game still wouldn't be higher than T3. I think gestalting everything from T4 down had the same effect.

Ok, damn, I assume that included epic feats ?


There were a few exceptions. Leadership boosted the tier (by adding a T1 to the character), and in the case of the legendary "Bonus Feat" class, which got the ability to ignore the rules limiting how many times you can take a feat (as well as all other prereqs for said feats, on top of at least 10k feats by level 10, and growing exponentially), that they could push T1 by virtue of access through feat spamming (Bind Vestige+multiples of Improved Binding, for example, on top of Martial Study/Stance until you know every maneuver in the book)

Very interesting indeed....
where can I find more information about this legendary "Bonus Feat" class ? :smallcool:

is it detailed on this forum somewhere or ?

[bekeleven]

I've built tier 3 mundane classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332829-The-Professional-Generic-Mundane-Base-Class-3-5) that are pretty reasonable.

Also, tier 3+ mundane classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428004) that are incredibly silly.

[yellowrocket]

Make a sentient mechanical robot with a built in anti magic field. Able to plane travel at higher levels through technology. Summonings? Nope. Rays, orbs, cones, and balls? Nope. Force effects? Nope. No mind to be effected by mind effects. Immune to illusions.

Not familiar enough with psyonic effects to know of he'd need immunity to those. But they aren't casters anyways.

Who needs magic, when as improvements come along you can mechanically add strength and precision (dexterity) to damage. And make the range of the anti magic field grow with leveling up. So a caster can't teleport if you're with in range.

[Flickerdart]

if you're with in range.
Aye, there's the rub.

[Pex]

I wouldn't object to a game where martials are as Tome of Battle, arcane casters are as Psionics, and divine casters are as Oracles, using Pathfinder rules.

:smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

I wouldn't object to a game where martials are as Tome of Battle, arcane casters are as Psionics, and divine casters are as Oracles, using Pathfinder rules.

:smallsmile:The catch is that most people won't want to take the necessary day-after pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, Raise Dead, et cetera) as spells known, because they won't be using them very often and spells known are very valuable when you've got a sharply limited supply.

[Jormengand]

I think gestalting everything from T4 down had the same effect.

No, we statted up this guy and he basically steamrolled everything that anyone could possibly have thought was level-appropriate, including same-level wizards. Though, having some of the distinctly-magical Tier 4 or below classes helped with this.

[Almarck]

The catch is that most people won't want to take the necessary day-after pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, Raise Dead, et cetera) as spells known, because they won't be using them very often and spells known are very valuable when you've got a sharply limited supply.

Unless you run Vitalist, yeah. And even then you'll probably have a day where you need to wait for that party member to prepare that.


Also, multiGestalting all of the martial classes into one is a horrendously funny idea.

[TheIronGolem]

The catch is that most people won't want to take the necessary day-after pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, Raise Dead, et cetera) as spells known, because they won't be using them very often and spells known are very valuable when you've got a sharply limited supply.

Isn't that what scrolls are for?

[AmberVael]

There have been though experiments. The consensus was that a character with every feat in the game still wouldn't be higher than T3. I think gestalting everything from T4 down had the same effect.


There were a few exceptions.

The 9th level spellcasting through feats alone trick could probably reach higher than tier 3. Your spell list would be weird, but I imagine you could sneak up to tier 2 at least.

[Gizmogidget]

Every time a non-caster uses a weapon it hits and the player can tack on one effect such as crippling with a fortitude save of 1/2 the level of the character+ the characters strength or dexterity score or something along those lines. The condition lasts for 1 minute and for every 10 points of healing the condition lasts for one less round.

Or you could say that whenever a martial character hits the opposing creature must succeed on a will save or become the characters lackey purely out of fear for the rest of it's life.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The catch is that most people won't want to take the necessary day-after pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, Raise Dead, et cetera) as spells known, because they won't be using them very often and spells known are very valuable when you've got a sharply limited supply.
True. You'd probably want to consolidate conditional healing (and heck, Cure spells too) so you don't waste so many slots. Or offer a "healbot" feat or PrC that grants then for free. (I wrote one that I'd link if I wasn't on my phone; if you're interested you can follow the link in my signature for "Giants and Graveyards" and scroll down to "Mystic Healer" in the classes section.)

[Gemini476]

The 9th level spellcasting through feats alone trick could probably reach higher than tier 3. Your spell list would be weird, but I imagine you could sneak up to tier 2 at least.

Well, what spells would you know? Or, rather, what spells known can you get from feats?

Mother Cyst gets you that line of spells, but that's the only one I can think of that actually straight-up gives you spells known. Improved Oneiromancy and Arcane Disciple both just add to your class' spell list, and explicitly say that you need to learn them as usual.

...I guess Extra Spell would explicitly add those to your spells known, though, although I'm unsure what you'd be able to get for other spells that way. I don't remember, does Magical Training actually give you access to the Sor/Wiz spell list?


Still, the All Bonus Feats Infinite Times guy can get a whole lot of spells known by worshiping Sertrous and grabbing Arcane Disciple for every single domain in existence. They'd need to be Chaotic Evil and become Tier 1 by virtue of becoming a Wizard++, but it's possible.

[Thisguy_]

It was a Reasonable Guess
Prerequisite: 10 levels in a full BAB class, Sense Motive as a class skill

Select an area, person, or object with which you are familiar with at least in passing.

Make a Sense Motive check according to the following table.



Familiarity



Seen or heard of at least once
DC 20


Observed or heard speak for more than a minute
DC 15


Have observed more than once
DC 10



If you succeed on the check, you can pinpoint the location of the person, area, or object. If you fail, you know the general direction and distance within an order of magnitude or so (feet, meters, miles) that the object is in relation to you.

The object, area, or person does not have to be on the same plane as you.

I'm good at guessing
Prerequisite: It was a Reasonable Guess, 10 or more ranks in Sense Motive

You do not have to make a check to determine locations.

Navigate
Prerequisite: Int 10, It was a Reasonable Guess

If you pinpoint an area, object, or person on another plane, you can discern, but not communicate, the fastest way to walk there.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't remember, does Magical Training actually give you access to the Sor/Wiz spell list?
No, just the 3 (if casting as a Wizard) or 2 (if as Sorcerer) spells known.

[Almarck]

You know, I am starting to understand part of what Grod means about "counters" to magic not being neccesarily enough. Agency is a neccesary part of what lacks in martial classes. Equalizing the disparity between magic and no magic is more than simply finding ways to wrestle against it; it is about having power and capabilties on your own to influence things.

I might have started this thread to cause silly, but that insight is a rather intriguing find that I did not feel I understood until right now.


But enough revelations: should it be within the capabilities of a fighter to pull a Heracles and hold up the sky?

[Rubik]

@Almarck: So, if you've got Editing Fever, why do I see a need for proofreading in your sig?

[Almarck]

@Almarck: So, if you've got Editing Fever, why do I see a need for proofreading in your sig?

Because just because I edit things; that doesn't mean the result is good.

Edit: It's also hyperbole. Before this edit, I didn't need to.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But enough revelations: should it be within the capabilities of a fighter to pull a Heracles and hold up the sky?
By 20th level? Hell yes. Or if not a Fighter, at least a Barbarian.

[Flickerdart]

But enough revelations: should it be within the capabilities of a fighter to pull a Heracles and hold up the sky?
The sky mostly stands up by itself - but dropping the sky on people, there's a thing.

[Almarck]

The sky mostly stands up by itself - but dropping the sky on people, there's a thing.

Well according to the BBC that's approximately 5.2 million billion metric tons... so, uh, how much damage would the sky do? I'm thinking that there's not enough dice on planet earth to roll for the damage.

[Flickerdart]

Rolling for damage is a sign of the wrong mentality.

[daremetoidareyo]

Epic skill ranks in craft: origami



Craft Use
DC
Example


Usable single use tools (lasts 5 minutes)
50
A hammer, crowbar, crossbow bolt, shuriken


So realistic, it's alive
70 +5 per HD +5 per size category greater than fine.
A paper crane becomes a thrush with the warforged template added. It is alive for 1 round per Character level. See below


Single use Masterwork Tools (lasts 1 minute)
70 +5 per 100gp in base price
Thieves picks, +2 masterwork items of skill boost.


Speed crafting up: 1 day = 1 hour
+10
You can craft an origami replica of anything that you have a big enough piece of paper for in 1 hour instead of a day


Speed crafting up: 1 hour = 1 minute
+10
You can craft an origami replica of anything that you have a big enough piece of paper for in 1 minute instead of an hour


Speed crafting up: standard action
+10
You can craft an origami replica of anything that you have a big enough piece of paper for in 1 standard action



If you make a living construct, the size is limited by the paper that you are folding. A typical paper of 4" x4" makes a fine creature. 16"X16" = diminutive. 2ftX2ft = Tiny. 5ft X5 ft= small. 10 ft X 10 ft = medium. 20ft X 20ft = Large. Just keep doubling, or quadrupling, I don't care anymore.


So you can make a living construct fine crane (use the stats for a thrush in the back of the dms guide, except give it 1 hp)

[torrasque666]

Rolling for damage is a sign of the wrong mentality.
That's.... that's kind of condescending man. Even in regards to the casters v martials disparity, its kind of condescending. The game is kind of based around dice rolls after all. And not just d20s, all of em. Frankly, that's kind of the root cause of the disparity, that casters get so many ways to not have to roll the dice themselves, and take risks of their own.


But to contribute to the discussion rather than make comments on other's posts, I'd say give martials some way of literally making the universe their bitch. Smacking people into next week in a literal sense as an example.

[Harrow]

I'm not the one who came up with it, but I feel it's in the spirit of this thread. Some people have tried to interpret the "duration of 1 or more rounds" clause of Iron Heart Surge as "Any duration other than instantaneous", allowing you to Iron Heart Surge away indefinite conditions like being entangled by a net or being on fire. Some also interpret "effect, or other condition currently affecting you" loosely enough to allow you to IHS away the sun.

[Jack_Simth]

You know, I am starting to understand part of what Grod means about "counters" to magic not being neccesarily enough. Agency is a neccesary part of what lacks in martial classes. Equalizing the disparity between magic and no magic is more than simply finding ways to wrestle against it; it is about having power and capabilties on your own to influence things.

I might have started this thread to cause silly, but that insight is a rather intriguing find that I did not feel I understood until right now.That's part of what builds the definitions of the class tiers. A Tier-1 can arrange to do pretty much anything, given a bit of time. A tier-2 has selectable access to the Tier-1 tricks, but has to select a set and can't change the set readily. A Tier-3 has something specific it can do, and do well, with modest use outside that thing. To quote (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0):
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available), Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner


My suggestions for upgrades? They'd actually leave the barbarian in Tier-4 ("one thing quite well"). That was actually deliberate on my part. Add my suggestions to a basic Barbarian build, and it's good at... hitting stuff until it dies - with the added bonus of being able to make it stay close enough to hit (which, of course, also means the target baddie is not going elsewhere to melee the casters), and being a little more survivable. It makes the meatshield more meatshield-like. That's it.

Well, what spells would you know? Or, rather, what spells known can you get from feats?

Mother Cyst gets you that line of spells, but that's the only one I can think of that actually straight-up gives you spells known. Improved Oneiromancy and Arcane Disciple both just add to your class' spell list, and explicitly say that you need to learn them as usual.

...I guess Extra Spell would explicitly add those to your spells known, though, although I'm unsure what you'd be able to get for other spells that way. I don't remember, does Magical Training actually give you access to the Sor/Wiz spell list?
Quite a few spells, actually. There's a bunch of bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium that directly add to your spells known (one per spell level), there's also a few other heritage feats every here and there that give you a small number of spells known.

The big benefit of Magical Training, for this build, is giving you a spellbook to go with your spell slots, which you can then add to. Add one of the feats that let you spontaneously cast a small number of spells per day out of non-prepared slots, and you qualify for Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon), which permits you to cast any spells you know. Now, by an amusing quirk of wording, a Wizard can, in theory, add a bard's scroll of Cure Light Wounds to a spellbook... the Wizard can't prepare it, though, because it's not on the Sor/Wiz list. Putting it in his spellbook, though, does put it on the Wizard's known list. Which Versatile Spellcaster then references. It's a cheesy trick, and won't fly at most tables, but technically permits the 'infinite feat, ignore requirements' theoretical build to cast any arcane spell spontaneously, with enough cash to buy them to put into the spell book, anyway.

[daremetoidareyo]

But to contribute to the discussion rather than make comments on other's posts, I'd say give martials some way of literally making the universe their bitch. Smacking people into next week in a literal sense as an example.

Mundanes, not just martials. OP said non-casters. Sometimes we like being sneaky without having to kill anyone at all.

[torrasque666]

Mundanes, not just martials. OP said non-casters. Sometimes we like being sneaky without having to kill anyone at all.
Then building on my previous point. Y'all remember Thief from 8-Bit? Remember how he managed to steal his class upgrade from himself in the future? That kind of stealth and thievery is something that should be possible.

Basically.... 8-Bit. 8-Bit all the things. Except for casters. And don't let Monks get lost in a straight hallway.

Fall damage? Block the ground!

High Jump Skill? TO THE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. .................................................. ........

[Almarck]

"...I also outran death, I punched your magic, and I picked up infinity!"

That reminds me.
You know what would totally be silly? Martials and Mundanes are now PreCrisis Kryptonians - They have strength high enough to lift infinity and eternity, speed fast enough to time travel and break the universe just by employing it and keep up with the flash, a guy fast enough to outrun Death, super intelligence to atleast being able to build really good robots or solve problems, ect ~ powerful to the point that Epic Level wizards are necessary to pose a challenge... and even then that might not be enough.

[Pex]

The catch is that most people won't want to take the necessary day-after pills (Stone to Flesh, Restoration, Raise Dead, et cetera) as spells known, because they won't be using them very often and spells known are very valuable when you've got a sharply limited supply.

Depends on the character. My Oracle of Life gets Restoration as a Mystery spell, and I happily took Raise Dead because I cared about my party members. I didn't take it at 10th level when I first got 5th level spells, letting Breath Of Life be our insurance, but I did take it at 11th level. I'm actually quite happy I never had to use it for party members but have used it for NPCs. I will eventually upgrade it to Resurrection. It's just something my character would do. As for my Oracle of Dark Tapestry, not going to happen. Breath of Life is still a strong candidate. The party knows and is ok with this character not being a heal-bot. I won't let a party member die if I can help it, but healing is not his forte or mode of operation. Maybe 13th level I'll spare the slot. Campaign circumstances could change my mind as to when I get the spell if at all.

Also, using Oracles instead of Clerics means Raise Dead/Resurrection is not a run-of-the-mill commodity that bothers some DMs. Its inherent rarity makes such an event special. Should it become known a PC can do it can bring lots of Chinese curse interesting times but fun to play for the game's sake.

[Eldan]

Yeah, we once had a debate about what tier a character with just one class feature would be. That feature is the following:

Win Combat (ex) If you enter combat, you win. Choose how you win from the following list: enemy is killed, enemy is captured, enemy is forced to flee.


I'm still arguing it's tier 4. A very powerful and boring tier 4, sure. But it still has very little actual agency without anything else.

[Rubik]

Yeah, we once had a debate about what tier a character with just one class feature would be. That feature is the following:

Win Combat (ex) If you enter combat, you win. Choose how you win from the following list: enemy is killed, enemy is captured, enemy is forced to flee.


I'm still arguing it's tier 4. A very powerful and boring tier 4, sure. But it still has very little actual agency without anything else.Replace with Win Internet Debate (ex). That's the stuff of legends.

[Eldan]

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in a while :smallredface: Can I sig that?

[Rubik]

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in a while :smallredface: Can I sig that?Sure, assuming you're talking to me.

[Flickerdart]

That's.... that's kind of condescending man. Even in regards to the casters v martials disparity, its kind of condescending. The game is kind of based around dice rolls after all. And not just d20s, all of em.
That's flat-out wrong. When you roll 1d8+200 damage, the roll isn't what's important. And that's pretty trivial T4 performance. When a warrior lands a hit, the target should die. That's not "hilarious wild ideas thread" material.


Frankly, that's kind of the root cause of the disparity, that casters get so many ways to not have to roll the dice themselves, and take risks of their own.
Exactly - and the noncasters need abilities like that to keep up. That's what this thread is for, man.

[Eldan]

It can be, if the modifiers are relatively clustered. If I'm rolling a competitive check of 1d20+2000 vs. 1d20+2000, the modifiers cancel each other and the roll is all that matters.

[LudicSavant]

Exactly - and the noncasters need abilities like that to keep up. That's what this thread is for, man.

Knock? No roll. Add to your spellbook whenever you feel like it. One standard action. Beats Arcane Lock. Open lock? Invest over several levels, plan in advance, roll or take a much longer time on the check, full round action if you're rolling. DCs are high (a 150g lock has DC40 check to open).

[Flickerdart]

If I'm rolling a competitive check
The conversation was about damage, not opposed checks.

[Almarck]

For the record, I was wondering how much damage dice would be rolled because of the hilarious mental image of having to roll that many dice. I just wanted to know how big I had to imagine it.

And I actually think if you had todo it by hand, the act of rolling for damage for a "thrown sky" would be so extreme that when a player does it, it might not just kill the character, but also the whole table! In short, your character is so strong, he can kill a character so hard it kills the guy controlling him and his nearby friends from across a dimensional barrier.. Morbid, but hilarious

[Jack_Simth]

For the record, I was wondering how much damage dice would be rolled because of the hilarious mental image of having to roll that many dice. I just wanted to know how big I had to imagine it.

And I actually think if you had todo it by hand, the act of rolling for damage for a "thrown sky" would be so extreme that when a player does it, it might not just kill the character, but also the whole table! In short, your character is so strong, he can kill a character so hard it kills the guy controlling him and his nearby friends from across a dimensional barrier.. Morbid, but hilarious
You mean like in This Comic (http://www.goblinscomic.org/tempts-fate-8/)?

[Thisguy_]

Just train some more - By spending one week of downtime, you may permanently raise your Strength score by one, up to a cap of 24. You may do nothing else during that week except for eat, sleep, and engage in strenuous physical activity.

Training from Hell - By spending one day of downtime, doing nothing but extreme physical exercise and deadly combat simulations, you may temporarily raise your base Strength score to 34. You may not eat, drink, or sleep during this 24 hour period, only train.

The effect lasts for one day. At the end of the day, immediately drop to 0 HP and make a death saving throw. If you fail, continue making throws until you succeed on one or are dead. Your Strength score reverts, and you suffer a penalty equal to the number of combats you participated in, which is reduced by one for every full day of rest you get. You Strength score cannot fall below one due to the penalty.


Actually, you think PF* could handle a class who can "store" their physical prowess like Lao G from One Piece, raising Strength for short bursts in exchange for being unable to raise their base Strength? Maybe a homebrew Monk archetype?

*EDIT: What dang forum am I in, anyway?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Actually, you think PF* could handle a class who can "store" their physical prowess like Lao G from One Piece, raising Strength for short bursts in exchange for being unable to raise their base Strength? Maybe a homebrew Monk archetype?

*EDIT: What dang forum am I in, anyway?
Sure, no problem. You could even expand it and make a Feruchemist. That would be fun.

[bekeleven]

Sure, no problem. You could even expand it and make a Feruchemist. That would be fun.

Iron - Weight has no meaning in D&D (except when people pick you up or you ride mounts)
Steel - Move Speed, Reflex Save
Tin - Perception ranks/Wisdom
Pewter - Strength

Zinc - Int?
Brass - Saves vs. Cold/Fire, warmth
Copper - Knowledge ranks
Bronze - Wakefulness

Chromium - Arbitrary bonus/penalty to rolls
Nicrosil - Spellcaster level
Aluminum - Saves vs. Transmutation
Duralumin - Saves vs. Enchantment

Cadmium - Saves vs. strenuous activity, lack of air
Bendalloy - Nutrition / Eating and drinking
Gold - Constitution
Electrum - Base Fortitude save

If you went off the source material, you could build a slightly more balanced feruchemist, with abilities spread out more across the mechanics. It would basically play like this:

Have a list of things and hand that list to the DM every time you leave combat, saying "I do all of this."
In combat, have +Yes to all rolls.


With some balances to how often you can tap/store and how many things you can have active at once, it could be interesting in combat. The issue is that the downtime stuff is micromanagement with no real benefit to the game (See: Grod's Law). You'd probably want to cut that and just have set amounts you're assumed to have stored for each encounter, perhaps amounts that scale with level.

The issue, as the issue with many magical systems (especially ones that I design, grr) is that there's just too much bean counting to justify. I think I could make it work if you give me a week. It would probably be tier 4.

[Flickerdart]

An idea from the serious version of this thread - allow Sleight of Hand to lift intangible concepts like spell slots or levels.

[SwordChucks]

An idea from the serious version of this thread - allow Sleight of Hand to lift intangible concepts like spell slots or levels.

I like the idea of stealing someone's heart with your roguish good looks and having it act like charm person/charm monster.

[Almarck]

So, does that mean if you steal enough you can defeat a wizard by taking everything away and turning yourself into a wizard? But with Fighter or Rogue stats plus free wizard junk.