Battlemaster maneuver clarification

[visitor]

Hi! Have a two part question:

PHB p73 "You can use only one maneuver per attack."

I imagine this means "attack" with small "a", and not "Attack action". So an 11th level Battlemaster fighter (with 3 attacks per Attack action) could use 3 maneuvers total in his turn, one per attack roll.


So, if that is correct then I have a question about:

PHB p74 Feinting Attack: "You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint....You have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature"

Is the Feinting Attack a maneuver applied to the bonus action, and so allows another maneuver, say Disarming attack, to be used with the first attack of the Battlemasters Attack action? And in this way adding 2 superiority dice to damage?

Or; since the Feinting Attack effects the next attack roll, would you consider that attack roll is "using" a maneuver already?


The Riposte maneuver is similar, but I think the difference between the two is Riposte both allows and effects a reaction melee weapon attack. Feinting attack, on the other hand, doesn't give you an extra attack roll, you must take an Attack action as your turn's action.

Thanks!

[Astovidas]

As so often, the answer is: "Ask your DM." :smallwink:

But I would say, you can. The "Feinting Attack" isn't an attack at all. It is only a feint and uses a bonus action. So imho you can use Feinting Attack with your Bonus Action, and then use (e.g.) a "Tripping Attack" with your first (and maybe only) attack.

It's completely realistic as well. In a fight, a feint is often used before an actual attack to get through the opponents defense. In my example the BM could feint an overhead swing and as soon as the opponent brings his weapon up to block the blow, the BM changes the direction and sweeps the legs of his adversary. Since the blow cannot be blocked, the legs are completely vulnerable and you deal more damage.

For the Riposte I would rule differenty. As you said, you use Riposte to get this attack. Therefore you already used a maneuver on the attack and cannot use another one.

I hope this helps.:smallsmile:

[Kryx]

It says per "attack", not per "Attack Action". RAW clearly allows multiple maneuvers per turn if you have multiple attacks.

I believe that is intended as well.

[Aetol]

I'm not so sure. I think this attack is actually using the "Feinting Attack" maneuver, since it gets the SD as bonus damage. So you can't use a second maneuver on top of this one. You'd be getting advantage and double SD and whatever benefit the second maneuver gives you, and I think that's contrary to the intention of "you can only use one maneuver per attack".

[Demonic Spoon]

I'm not so sure. I think this attack is actually using the "Feinting Attack" maneuver, since it gets the SD as bonus damage. So you can't use a second maneuver on top of this one. You'd be getting advantage and double SD and whatever benefit the second maneuver gives you, and I think that's contrary to the intention of "you can only use one maneuver per attack".

I don't think you two disagree.

I think the only question is whether a bonus action maneuver like feinting attack counts as applying to an attack. However, I would imagine that we would all agree that if you have two attacks with the Attack action you can use, for example, Disarming Strike twice.

[Aetol]

I don't think you two disagree.

Hmm, my bad. "I'm not so sure" was directed at Astovidas, not Kryx.

[Kryx]

I would imagine that we would all agree that if you have two attacks with the Attack action you can use, for example, Disarming Strike twice.
Maybe I have missed something - that's what I thought we were discussing.

I see now. Reading comprehension...

Feinting isn't a superiority dice being used on the next attack. "You can use only one maneuver per attack."
It was already used, and is merely applying on the next attack - that is totally different. Definitely allowed to Feint + Trip for example.

[visitor]

Maybe I have missed something - that's what I thought we were discussing.

I see now. Reading comprehension...

Feinting isn't a superiority dice being used on the next attack. "You can use only one maneuver per attack."
It was already used, and is merely applying on the next attack - that is totally different. Definitely allowed to Feint + Trip for example.

I think the only sticking point is "one maneuver per attack" . If the intent or reading of this is one maneuver "effect" per attack. All the rest of the maneuvers are pretty straightforward in this regard, only Feinting allows 2 maneuver effects to stack

Thanks for the replies!

[Aetol]

Feinting isn't a superiority dice being used on the next attack. "You can use only one maneuver per attack."
It was already used, and is merely applying on the next attack - that is totally different. Definitely allowed to Feint + Trip for example.

In this context, is there really a difference between "using" a maneuver on an attack and "applying" a maneuver to an attack ?

[Kryx]

In this context, is there really a difference between "using" a maneuver on an attack and "applying" a maneuver to an attack ?
I believe there is. If you read the description of all attack maneuvers they all say something to the effect of "when you hit". That is using the maneuver on the attack. Feinting was used separately from the attack (but could apply)

Though I'd be curious to see what Crawford has to say on the topic.

[Citan]

It says per "attack", not per "Attack Action". RAW clearly allows multiple maneuvers per turn if you have multiple attacks.

I believe that is intended as well.
@OP: what Kryx said. :)

There is no balance-breaking in here anyways.
After all, you DO have a limited supply of superiority dice. If you think it's best to use all them up in a few rounds, and just mash away for the rest of the encounters before the next short rest... Well it's your choice. No reason to forbid you to do so (just hope you made the right call and don't run into tough fight later)...




Maybe I have missed something - that's what I thought we were discussing.

I see now. Reading comprehension...

Feinting isn't a superiority dice being used on the next attack. "You can use only one maneuver per attack."
It was already used, and is merely applying on the next attack - that is totally different. Definitely allowed to Feint + Trip for example.

I'm not so sure. I think this attack is actually using the "Feinting Attack" maneuver, since it gets the SD as bonus damage. So you can't use a second maneuver on top of this one. You'd be getting advantage and double SD and whatever benefit the second maneuver gives you, and I think that's contrary to the intention of "you can only use one maneuver per attack".
I don't see why not. After all, you ARE a Battlemaster, so it's logical that you carefully set up a tactic to inflict the best shot at a given time.
Also, considering how Feint is written differently, I think it's logical to treat it differently from the others, so I agree with Kryx explanation.