So why is the monk weak?

[Indon]

I believe you're thinking of Superior Unarmed Strike, which is indeed in Tome of Battle. Improved Unarmed Strike is the one monks get as a bonus feat at first level.

However, Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't stack with a Monk's Belt. They're both based on your actual monk level, and neither of them are worded to improve your monk level "for the purpose of determining unarmed strike damage" or similar, so their effects overlap. The Monk's Belt is better though (five levels higher vs four levels higher), so if you're using one then you can use that feat slot for something else.

Ah, thank you. Also, Curses! Less room for rockin' Monk PrC's without losing the sweet unarmed base damage.

Monk's belt is also better because it gives +1 AC. :P

Edit: Talya; many monk PrC's don't advance monk unarmed damage. Monks Belts and the like are a way to have your cake-fists, and eat them too.

[Talya]

Ah, thank you. Also, Curses! Less room for rockin' Monk PrC's without losing the sweet unarmed base damage.

Monk's belt is also better because it gives +1 AC. :P

Edit: Talya; many monk PrC's don't advance monk unarmed damage. Monks Belts and the like are a way to have your cake-fists, and eat them too.


Yeah, I don't like most monk PrCs. :(

[TGWG]

TIME TO SUMMERIZE

these are the main arguements that have yet to be shot down on both sides.

The Prosecution arguments are: that the Monk depends too much on MAD, which may or may not be true depending on how much the player tries to do; they have to spend more money on their equipment (namely rings and amulets), this has yet to be disproved by any party; Monks have poor BAB for a Melee character; Monks can't optimize as well as the other characters (namely the fighter, or the rogue; and finaly Monks aren't necessary for the party

the Defendent's case stands as thus: their increased unarmed attack damage helps them in situations where people would be denied their weapons; they are unlikely to get surprised because spot and listen are class skills and WIS is their prime Ability; they are the best class to use stunning fist; it's movement increase is useful; Polymorph on a monk class is more effective then on other core classes; but the main arguement is that a Monk is not an optimization charater, it is however a handy surpport character that your party can have if all four slots are already taken.

Now being the only active nuetral party in this bourd (ALL OTHER NUETRALS SHOULD SPEAK UP NOW) does not give me the right to be the judge or jury of this debate, but if I did somehow have the power to pass judgement - which I don't - I would rule that the monk is "weak" class on the grounds that the weaknesses of the monk class outweigh it's strenghts; but the monk is not a "Useless" class on grounds that the monk's strengths normaly can't be found in other classes except if they thin out their optimization. (truthfully, IMO the weaknesses of the monk is equal with its strenghths but in order to be a "balanced" class a monk's strengths have to slightly - by a noticable amount - surpass the monk's weaknesses)

BTW.

Assuming 12 is their final total (and all the builds here have ended up using the slots required for save-raising items for other essential things), it is below average. A wizard with a +5 Cloak of Resistance and +2 or more from Con (remember, Con is the second-priority stat for most mages, since they need to offset their d4s, so they'll likely have more than that) is going to have a higher fort save than the monk. In fact, so would an equal-level commoner.

[QUOTE=Talya;2649781]Weapon finesse doesn't increase damage, you don't gain dexterity to damage, only to hit. And no, a smart monk doesn't take Weapon Finesse at level 3, they take Intuitive Attack. (Wisdom to hit.) QUOTE]

thanks for correcting me. My bad. Not so sure about the commoner though, I checked. And so are you sure you're not exagerating just a little bit. It's unreasonable to expect a commoner to have magic items.

[Diamondeye]

Ok, the damage output of the monk has been claimed to be negligable.. so lets compare.

Assuming a 32 point starting build for all characters and 5 other ability increases by level 20, a fighter might look like this:

Str 20 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 8.

Our monk might look like this:

S 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 10 Cha 8.

Our rogue might look like:

S 16 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14 (he wants to use magic device after all)

So, lets say our warrior is armed with his Flaming Keen Greatsword +5.

Our monk is armed with his Flaming Keen Sai +5, his amulet of mighty fists +5, his various body parts, he's going to be taking weapon finesse rather than relying on strength, and he'll have all 3 levels of 2 weapon fighting.

Our rogue has his Flaming Keen Rapier and Shortsword + 5 and he'll also be taking weapon finesse, and 3 levels of 2 weapon fighting.

So: We're attacking some monster or other. This monster has an AC of say 32, so our monk and rogue will hit it on a 7 if they don't use a second weapon or a 9 if they do. Our warrior is power attacking so he'll also hit on a 7 and will get 10 extra points of damage per hit.

Over 3 rounds our warrior will get 3 attack routines of 1 attack at each of these BAB: +15/+10/+5/+0. That's 12 attacks total, of which he should hit about 6 times total. He's therefore going to do [7 (average greatsword damage) +5 (str) +5 (magic) +10(pattack) + 3.5 (flaming 1d6 average)] x4 which totals out to 30.5 per attack, or 122 damage over 3 rounds.

The monk will attack 24 total attacks; 3 rounds at +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3. His "primary hand" unarmed strikes should hit a total of 6 times and his offhand sai should hit 3 times. He'll doing with his primary attacks [11 (average of 2d10) +5 (amulet) +2 Str] which is 18 per attack, over 6 attacks gives us 108 damage. He'll score 3 sai his for [3.5 (sai average) + 3.5 (flaming average) +5 (magic) +1 (Str with offhand)] which is 13 per hit, or 39 total... this gives us 147 damage. Even if I overestimated his number of attacks that would hit and we reduce primary and offhand attacks by one each, he'll still do 116 damage. That means the fighter, even if I overestimated, will outdamage him by a whopping 6 points over the course of 3 rounds, or 2 points per round.... truely, the monks damage "pales in comparison. If I didn't overestimate, well... the fighter is outdamaged.

Granted, there are feats and things to boost the damage of the fighter, but there are things like intuitive attack I didn't give the monk either.. in the interest of keeping this to some reasonable length.

Now our rogue will attack 3 rounds at +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 or 18 times total of which he should hit 6 times total, 3 mainhand and 3 offhand.. and of course he's a good rogue so he'll be sneak attacking. That's [35 (sneak attack) + 3.5 (rapier/shortsword) + 3.5 (flaming) + 5 (magic) +2 (str)] or 49 per attack... but 3 were offhand, so 3 will be at 48. 48*3+49*3=291 damage over 3 rounds.

Wow.

So, our rogue should outdamage our monk and our fighter put together!

There's a problem with this however. Per round, the fighter is averaging 40.67, our monk 49.33 (or 39.33 if I overestimated his hits) and our rogue 97. If the DM is doing a decent job roleplaying the monster, it should either react to the greatest pain (rogue) if stupid, or the greatest threat (rogue) if intelligent. If the monk's damage output is higher than the fighters, he'll draw this ire too, but he'll also be more likely to survive it.. more HP and probably similar AC. (lets say bracers +5 AC (which is the same cost as the warrior's +5 mithril full plate), wisdom +3, +4 class AC +5 from Dex, while the rogue might have leather +5, +5 Dex, and an amulet of natural armor. The rogue can do better on the base AC, of course, but we don't want to be taking too big a skill penalty now do we?)

The other problem is: what if the rogue can't sneak attack? There are monsters out there totally immune to it such as undead, anything with improved uncanny dodge, and of course, any time the rogue can't flank. The monk doesn't have to flank. If he doesn't his damage drops, but the fighter's drops as well, so that can be ignored. The rogue not only scores fewer hits, each of his hits takes an incredible drop in damage; he'll only be doing 14 with his main hand and 13 with his offhand, giving us a total of 81 damage over 3 rounds.. not impressive compared with the fighters 122 or the monks 116..or 147.

So, the big advantage of the monk over the rogue is that he does not have to sneak attack to do damage, which should be similar to a fighter's. He still should try to flank since it helps both him and the fighter, and he's also got more mobility than the rogue to do it with.

Then ther's the matter of saving throws, but the monk, if he's not blowing all his money trying to squeeze a few more points of AC onto his bracers, should have a cloak of resistance just like the fighter.. and while his fort save might be still lower, his reflex and will saves won't be and I have not noticed that a 1 or 2 point difference in fortitude save is better than an 8 point difference (higher wis) in will, or a 10 point advantage in reflex (higher dex).

He'll also have better fortitude and will saves than the rogue.

Is the monk a better tank than a barbarian, fighter, or paladin? No. He's not going to have the AC or the HP to do it.

Is he a better skill master than the rogue? No.

Is he a better damage dealer than the rogue? He frequently should be. If your campaign is bereft of undead or the rogue easily flanks every opponent, the rogue is better, but I would certainly be curious as to your DMs habits.

The bottom line is that the monk does acceptable melee damage and has advantages in situations that should face most perties on a fairly regular basis in most campaigns. I wouldn't replace a fighter or rogue with him in a 4 person group, but I'd take him over a second one of either in a 5 person group.

[Jasdoif]

If your campaign is bereft of undead or the rogue easily flanks every opponent, the rogue is better, but I would certainly be curious as to your DMs habits.Since you're curious, the existence of greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm). Someone who can't see you because you're invisible doesn't get their Dex bonus to AC against you, which allows you to sneak attack them without needing a flank. And greater invisibility doesn't expire when you attack, so you can full attack and get your sneak attack on each hit.

Of course, a monk could take advantage of the spell too, but the rogue's bonus damage is easily higher then the monk's flurry is liable to do. (A gestalt rogue/monk is fun, however, for precisely this reason).

[Fourth Tempter]

Diamond, that is a very poor analysis. It does not take into account damage reduction (common at high levels), and energy resistance (absolutely everywhere at high levels--the "flaming" property becomes a waste of gold), does not factor in non-weapon equipment (an enormous amount, at level twenty) or feats (a core fighter will have regular and greater Weapon Focus and Specialization, simply because he lacks better choices), and most importantly, does not optimize the fighter's Power Attack to fit the monster's Armor Class, and is in general almost entirely unrelated to actual play. I will work on putting together a monk, at various levels, and we can make a comparison at whatever level.

[Diamondeye]

Diamond, that is a very poor analysis. It does not take into account damage reduction (common at high levels)

Which will affect all 3 characters, unless there is some sort of damage reduction that works only against monks that I don't know of. Things that affect all 3 of the characters in the example do not change their relative strengths.


, and energy resistance (absolutely everywhere at high levels--the "flaming" property becomes a waste of gold),

You'll notice that all 3 of them had flaming weapons, so we can remove it from all of them.. which would actually favor the monk since his unarmed attack uses no flaming in the first place.

Again, that affects them all, and has little effect on relative strength. Any effect it does have favors the monk since his main "weapon" isn't able to use the flaming property in the first place.


does not factor in non-weapon equipment (an enormous amount, at level twenty)

Which all 3 classes will have equal access to. The monk in my example does not waste his money trying to get bracers of armor higher than +5; his AC bonus is already 4 and his wisdom gives him another 3, so he is essentially wearing half-plate already.


or feats (a core fighter will have regular and greater Weapon Focus and Specialization, simply because he lacks better choices),

I also did not account for any of the monk's feats other than what is necessary to wield his weapons. However, that's a fair cricticism so add weapon specialization, that amounts to an additional 10% improvement in chance to hit, and +4 damage per hit.

That means the fighter does an additional 8 points of damage on the attacks I already gave him and probably hits one additional time, giving him another 32.5 damage, which gives him 162 (rounding down) total. Better, but 162 does not make 147 "miniscule" or "pale in comparison".


and most importantly, does not optimize the fighter's Power Attack to fit the monster's Armor Class, and is in general almost entirely unrelated to actual play.

Actually, that's exactly the situation one would face in actual play.

I have no idea what you mean by further "optimizing" the fighters power attack, any change in power attack will either reduce his chances of hitting (and every hit he gives up is a bigger impact than for the monk) or will reduce his damage per hit.

I have not noticed that players customarily sit there with calculators and figure out the proper power attack ratio for each encounter. The "setting" of power attack is a player choice, not a rule, and is therefore utterly unrelated to a comparison of the classes based on the rules.

Then there is the fact that this is a fighter with a 2 handed weapon. If our fighter decides to go for higher defense and use, say, a bastard sword and a shield, he loses a lot of damage. The monk faces no such choice; he'll be doing about this much damage regardless.

I also notice you made no mention whatsoever of the comparison to the rogue, which is really more important. The monk is much closer in role to the rogue than the fighter since he clearly does not have the fighter's ability to withstand punishment.

The fact of the matter is that in any situation where the rogue cannot seak attack, the monk vastly outperforms him, and he is more resiliant regardless. The rogue might be able to obtain a slightly higher AC (since the monk cannot wear an amulat of natural armor with the amulet of mighty fists) but he cannot match the monks hit points, saving throws, spell resistance and various other immunities without magical items. One could argue that the rogue can back off and "use magic device" or do archery, but his damage will still be lower with archery, even with rapid shot, and use magic device costs him money the monk doesn't have to spend on wands or scrolls or whatever, not to mention the risk of a misfire, and the fact that it introduces MAD to the rogue, since Charisma is the governing attribute. I have generally noticed that "use magic device" is somewhat of an afterthought skill for rogues as well, since the more technical and athletic skills are generally more useful in his role as a skill user.

That's pretty much the point of the monk.. He is more reliable and survivable than the rogue, at the cost of first-round damage and skills.

[Diamondeye]

Since you're curious, the existence of greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm). Someone who can't see you because you're invisible doesn't get their Dex bonus to AC against you, which allows you to sneak attack them without needing a flank. And greater invisibility doesn't expire when you attack, so you can full attack and get your sneak attack on each hit.

Of course, a monk could take advantage of the spell too, but the rogue's bonus damage is easily higher then the monk's flurry is liable to do. (A gestalt rogue/monk is fun, however, for precisely this reason).

That will help the rogue some of the time, but that's a cost the monk does not have to bear, since he does not need to flank. (It's better for him and his fighter teammate if he does in an absolute sense, but it does not affect his relative performance when compared to a fighter or a rogue that is in the same situation)

Since we are pointing out the monk's extraneous magical item expenses, it is only fair to point out those of other classes as well.

It also does not help the rogue against those opponents that cannot be sneak attacked regardless, and at level 20 effects like true seeing and dispel magic are readily available to many foes.

[Quietus]

Now being the only active nuetral party in this bourd (ALL OTHER NUETRALS SHOULD SPEAK UP NOW)

*Lifts hand, waves*

Well, that depends on your definition of neutral, I suppose.


I'd simply like to point out that the damage comparison was not poorly done at all, quite an elegant way of displaying things. I look forward to see other people who support the Fighter end of things doing a similar breakdown, and see what the difference ends up being.

It's also worth noting that if you're fighting something that uses weapons, then the monk has an additional benefit; Stunning Fist on one attack per round means that, if his opponent fails (and if we're looking at 20 wis [switched the mentioned dex and wis] + 6 from an item, the DC is sitting around 28, or 30 with Ability Focus), they drop all held items. Even if we look at things in a PvP situation, the fighter's got 12 base + 6 con [with a +6 con item] + 5 from a cloak of resistance = +24 to his fort saves. Either he OR the monk could further push their side up, but the Fighter's got about a 30% chance to fail that save. Means he gives up a round's worth of attacks, AND loses his weapon. And the Monk hasn't lost anything in the process. It's only fair to take this into account, if the Rogue gets to take his sneak attack into account. :smallwink:

[the_tick_rules]

the monk does have some instances where it's abilities are invaluable. at 16th level an monk has adamantine attacks and you can't disarm a monk and they don't need to study for their special powers. So if like something happens to your party that happened like mine where your caught and captured and your wizards spell book is confiscated. if my monk were high level she'd cut through her chains, door, and go etheral through walls or dimension door over the walls all while using her hide and move silently to remain undetected.

[greenknight]

The Prosecution arguments are: that the Monk depends too much on MAD, which may or may not be true depending on how much the player tries to do;

I tend to agree that MAD isn't a huge problem for Monks at higher levels, provided Polymorph Any Object functions as described in the SRD.


their increased unarmed attack damage helps them in situations where people would be denied their weapons;

This is true, but spellcasters tend to be even better still in that situation.


they are unlikely to get surprised because spot and listen are class skills and WIS is their prime Ability;

IME, even Dex/Wis based Monks tend to max Dex rather than Wis, so Druids tend to be better at Spot / Listen.


they are the best class to use stunning fist;

Agreed, although a Druid (with 1 Monk level, usually) is almost as good.


it's movement increase is useful;

True, although a Druid Wild Shaped to Air Elemental is faster, able to fly and that speed can benefit from Haste.


Polymorph on a monk class is more effective then on other core classes;

Totally untrue. Polymorph can signficantly benefit any class which powers off Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma. Polymorph Any Object (which usually gives a much longer lasting effect) works well for any class which powers off Wisdom or Charisma. In short, the base Core classes which can work well with PAO are Bard, Cleric, Druid (although they don't need it), Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Sorcerer. Because of their high BAB and reliance on physical combat to do damage, Paladins and Rangers might be the classes which get the most benefit from Polymorph.


but the monk is not a "Useless" class on grounds that the monk's strengths normaly can't be found in other classes except if they thin out their optimization. (truthfully, IMO the weaknesses of the monk is equal with its strenghths but in order to be a "balanced" class a monk's strengths have to slightly - by a noticable amount - surpass the monk's weaknesses)

IMO, the Monk's role as unarmed combatant is generally better served by the Druid, who also does very well at Spot / Listen. Druids don't get hide as a class skill, but by Wild Shaping into a "harmless" creature native to the area they should be able to blend in. Rogues also tend to do well at Spot / Listen, and have Hide / Move Silently as class skills. And provided they can get their sneak attacks in, they can usually do more damage per round than the Monk. Finally, the existance of the Monk's Belt allows other classes (most notably the Druid) to gain their Wisdom bonus to AC. Even without that, as it stands one level of Monk would be all the character needs to gain it.

On to how to make the Monk better:

* Allow the Monk to apply the Wisdom modifier (if positive) to AC and all attack and damage rolls, but cap it at ((Monk level / 2) + 2). The cap makes a 1 level dip less attractive, while still being high enough to be useful even at 20th level. For missile weapons, the attack and damage bonus only applies if the target is within 30'.

* Reduce the Monk's enhanced movement to 5' per 3 levels, and allow them to make a full attack as a standard action with their unarmed attacks (but not natural weapons) or special Monk weapons. Again, the restriction is to reduce the benefit of a 1 level dip (eg, 1 level Monk, the rest Druid). The reduced speed is to prevent a Spring Attack from being too good a tactic.

* Give the Monk an Air Walk ability from 5th level as a supernatural free action. This should last for 1 minute per Monk level, with up to 1 use / level / day.

* Change Ki Strike so that it gives an enhancement bonus to hit and damage, +1 per 4 Monk levels starting from 4th level. This should apply to unarmed attacks only. Once per day (at some set time) the Monk can "trade in" some or all of that enhancement bonus for appropriate equivalent weapon enhancements from the magic weapon list. Eg, an 12th level Monk could keep a +1 enhancement and add Bane: Undead and Ghost Touch. At 8th level, the Monk's unarmed attacks should count as both Alchemical Silver and Cold Iron for overcoming damage reduction. This allows a Monk wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 to convert the entire class based enhancement bonus to other weapon enhancements, for example.

* Remove the penalty to attack from Flurry of Blows at 5th level.

* Replace Wholeness of Body with the ability to produce an effect similar to Dispel Magic (1 per 3 Monk levels). At 12th level, allow the Monk to produce a Greater Dispel Magic effect by sacrificing 2 regular Dispel Magic uses.

* Allow the Monk to choose any one of the following Feats as a bonus Feat at 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th level: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Diehard, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Unarmed Attack), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator, Power Attack, Run, Stealthy, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike, Grapple, or special Monk weapons only). If taken as a bonus Feat, the Monk need not meet the normal pre-requisites for the Feat (if any). Do not give the Monk a bonus Feat at 1st level (to reduce the benefit of a 1 level dip).

* Allow Quivering Palm to be used 1 / day.

That's a big list of significant benefits, so to balance it out I suggest removing the following abilities: Slow Fall (Air Walk essentially makes it pointless anyway), Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Perfect Self.

[Indon]

IME, even Dex/Wis based Monks tend to max Dex rather than Wis, so Druids tend to be better at Spot / Listen.


Well, let's compare dex and wisdom for a monk.

Dex:
Reflex saves
AC
Ranged attacks

Wis:
Will saves
AC
Saves
Ranged attacks (requires a feat)

Those aware of the feat Zen Archery do not have much reason to favor Dexterity over Wisdom.



Agreed, although a Druid (with 1 Monk level, usually) is almost as good.

A monk gets 1 use of Stunning Fist per day per monk level, or per 4 non-monk levels. Monk 1/Druid 19 gets 5 uses, though their wis is likely to be higher unless the monk focuses on it.



True, although a Druid Wild Shaped to Air Elemental is faster, able to fly and that speed can benefit from Haste.


A monk polymorphed into an air elemental is faster than a hasted druid wild shaped into the same form (after 12'th level or higher).



Totally untrue. Polymorph can signficantly benefit any class which powers off Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma. Polymorph Any Object (which usually gives a much longer lasting effect) works well for any class which powers off Wisdom or Charisma. In short, the base Core classes which can work well with PAO are Bard, Cleric, Druid (although they don't need it), Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Sorcerer. Because of their high BAB and reliance on physical combat to do damage, Paladins and Rangers might be the classes which get the most benefit from Polymorph.

Monks benefit in particular not only by MAD reduction, but:
-Monks gain their enhancement bonus to movement to all their movement speeds; fly, swim, climb, name it. A polymorphed monk's gonna move fast in every way it can move.
-Monks can flurry with unarmed attack at monk damage (as a monk of that size, so a monk polymorphed into a large form deals 4d8 damage per hit, and that's just large) instead of using weaker natural weapon full attacks... and then the monk can use the natural weapons as well, at -5 each.
-Monks have the highest grapple damage, and so can do the most with a form that can grapple competently.

Though, arguably, a lot of that has to do with size increases; monks get a lot from size increases in general (mostly because a high-level monk basically gains about 2d8 extra damage per attack per size increase), and obtaining of alternate movement modes.

[Talya]

Why do people insist on prioritizing dexterity over wisdom for a monk? There is absolutely no reason to take dexterity over wisdom for a monk. A single feat gives them either wisdom (Intuitive Attack) or dexterity (weapon finesse) bonus to hit, so there's no difference there...and the Wisdom bonus to armor class applies even when flatfooted, while dexterity does not. Lastly, wisdom powers the DC of your stunning fist attack. A monk loses far too much prioritizing dexterity over wisdom. They should never do so. Free dexterity is fine, but in any case where it's a choice, one for one, of dexterity or wisdom, go with wisdom. Personally, without a houserule allowing wisdom to damage for a monk, I'd prioritize wisdom, strength, constitution, and then dexterity, in that order.

[Dhavaer]

Well, let's compare dex and wisdom for a monk.

Dex:
Reflex saves
AC
Ranged attacks

Wis:
Will saves
AC
Saves
Ranged attacks (requires a feat)

Those aware of the feat Zen Archery do not have much reason to favor Dexterity over Wisdom.

You listed saves twice under Wisdom, and you haven't mentioned Initiative under Dexterity.

[Raum]

A couple of comments regarding your analysis:
- Your hit chance is arbitrary and inconsistent. You seem to have the fighter hitting when his AB is 10 or higher, the monk when his AB is +8, and the rogue when his AB is +13. It would be far more accurate to simply multiply damage by hit chance.
- You've given the monk more magical equipment than the others.
- You've understated the fighter's damage from Strength.

And some questions...

Over 3 rounds our warrior will get 3 attack routines of 1 attack at each of these BAB: +15/+10/+5/+0. That's 12 attacks total, of which he should hit about 6 times total. He's therefore going to do [7 (average greatsword damage) +5 (str) +5 (magic) +10(pattack) + 3.5 (flaming 1d6 average)] x4 which totals out to 30.5 per attack, or 122 damage over 3 rounds.Either the fighter's AB is too low or you need to add to PA damage...significantly. Though you did state "BAB" here while you seem to have calculated AB for the others, why?


The monk will attack 24 total attacks; 3 rounds at +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3. His "primary hand" unarmed strikes should hit a total of 6 times and his offhand sai should hit 3 times. He'll doing with his primary attacks [11 (average of 2d10) +5 (amulet) +2 Str] which is 18 per attack, over 6 attacks gives us 108 damage. He'll score 3 sai his for [3.5 (sai average) + 3.5 (flaming average) +5 (magic) +1 (Str with offhand)] which is 13 per hit, or 39 total... this gives us 147 damage. Even if I overestimated his number of attacks that would hit and we reduce primary and offhand attacks by one each, he'll still do 116 damage. That means the fighter, even if I overestimated, will outdamage him by a whopping 6 points over the course of 3 rounds, or 2 points per round.... truely, the monks damage "pales in comparison. If I didn't overestimate, well... the fighter is outdamaged.Shouldn't the monk get a total of 21 attacks over 3 rounds?

One last comment regarding two weapon vs two handed weapon combat: Two weapon combat is often better until you consider DR. Since DR is per hit, the more hits it takes to get reasonable damage, the more that character is affected by DR.

[Fourth Tempter]

Diamondeye, those things do NOT apply equally. DR 15/good and cold iron, for example, will hurt the monk (who makes many attacks) far more than the Fighter. In addition, the fighter can use a weapon and overcome that reduction at a slight penalty; the monk switching to a weapon is surrendering his unarmed damage, reducing his damage output even further.
Dragons are essentially the only high-level monster that does not have significant damage reduction.

In any case, I am constructing a party, which is proving to be relatively time-consuming....

So here is our daring human monk--let us name him Shadowhand Li, a quick and insightful youth who may well have been a Ninja had he but reached maturity after the release of the Complete Adventurer. Alas, it was not to be--built optimally on a thirty-two-point buy, the monastically-trained Li may well look like this:

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 10

Li selects Stunning Fist as his bonus feat, Dodge as his human feat, and, uh, I suppose Mobility. For his skills, he places maximum ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Jump, Tumble, and Escape Artist. He requires Escape Artist so he can attempt to escape grapples, he requires Tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity, he has neglected Listen in favor of Jump, and he selected Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. He has no skill points left for Use Magic Device, although he could lose Tumble. In fact, he does--he decides magic is too useful to do without.

Level one does not exist and level two flies by (fortunate--at that level, he must resort to flinging shuriken or firing a crossbow, as he lacks Weapon Finesse); at level three, Li has picked up Deflect Arrows, Evasion, Still Mind, has a 40-foot speed. He must take Weapon Finessefor his feat. He has six ranks in all of his skills, giving him Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Spot 9, Jump 9, Use Magic Device 4.5, Escape Artist 9. With HP full at first level and average thereafter, he has 20 hit points.

His attack bonus is +5, +3/+3 when flurrying, +5/+5 when flurrying and flanking. He does 1d6 damage. For reference, 15 and 16 are the most common armor classes for monsters Challenge Rating 2 to 4, although 18s are not uncommon. NPCs can be expected to have 18 AC or more as well.
His saving throws are F+5/R+6/W+6. He has 2,700 gold, and he has spent some of it on a masterwork kama for when he needs slashing damage and saved the rest to purchase a Ring of Protection. His AC is 17. He has, you will note, a distinct lack of a thousand gold pieces to spend on a Salve of Slipperiness.


Li has left his monastery, his masters having advised him that he must experience real combat if he is to advance beyond novice status; along the way he met Sharra, a quick-talking halfling rogue who persuaded him to join her in forming a company of adventurers. To make a long story short, they acquire companions in a comical fashion, and the lot head off to badger random passers-by about "quests".

When the party has time to prepare, Bless gives him +1 to hit, as he would not particularily benefit from Enlarge Person and benefit far less than the cleric and fighter from Bull's Strength.


Sharra, Halfling Rogue 3:
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 10
1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 3: Weapon Finesse
Equipment: +1 Chain Shirt, two Masterwork Shortswords, MW Thieves' Tools, a healing potion or two, and adventuring miscellania such as rope, sunrods, and the like, a shortbow.
Skills: Bluff 6, Hide 14, Move Silently 10, Search 8, Disable Device 12, Open Lock 12, Tumble 10, Use Magic Device 6.
AB: +8, +6/+6 when two-weapon fighting, +8/+8 when fighting with two weapons and flanking. She has 2d6 sneak attack, meaning she does 1d4+2d6-1 damage a hit when flanking (read, most of the time).
Saves: F+3/R+7/W+1
AC: 20 (small size, +1 AB and AC)
HP: 19
When Blessed, +1 AB as usual.

Dwarven Fighter, the Dwarven Fighter 3 whose player never did write something down under the "name" section of his sheet and who really ought to've played a barbarian:
STR 17, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 6
Skills: Intimidate 4, Drinking Yes.
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Equipment: Fullplate, MW Dwarven Waraxe, Heavy Steel Shield, a couple of healing potions, a couple of potions of Enlarge Person, a +3 STR composite longbow.
AB: +7, hitting for 2d6+3.
Saves: F+6/R+2/W+3, +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities.
AC: 21
HP: 30

When under the influence of Enlarge Person, Bless, and Bull's Strength (as he is whenever the party has time to prepare), Gorbash puts away his shield and goes on the offensive: STR 23 (+6), DEX 10, AB +10, damage 3d6 (Large dwarven waraxe)+9 (held in two hands), with his AC falling to 17. Dwarven Fighter lives for these moments.

Gosmash, human Cleric 3 of the cause of Going Places and Smashing Things, with the War and Strength domains:
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Skills: Concentration 8, Diplomacy 6
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon Focus (Greatsword) [War domain], Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative.
Equipment: MW Heavy Mace, heavy shield, Fullplate, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, assorted minor things.
AB: +6, for 2d6+3
Saves: F+5/R+2/W+6, +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities.
AC: 21
HP: 23
Spell DC: 13+level
Spell Slots: Orisons - 4, L1 - 3+D, L2 - 2+D.
Typical Spells Readied: some orisons, 2x Bless, 1x Shield of Faith, 1x Enlarge Person, 2x Bull's Strength, 1x Shatter

Lolhax the Great, Gnome Wizard 3, tiny genius whose arcane wrath his enemies will one day rue. His familiar is a very cute white rat (+2 to Fortitude saving throws).
STR 6, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 18 (20), WIS 12, CHA 8
Skills: Concentration 9, Tumble 4.5, Knowledge(Arcana) 10, Spellcraft 10, Hide 10.5 (size), Knowledge(The Planes) 5, other knowledges 1.
Feats: Scribe Scroll (bonus), Extend Spell, Craft Wondrous Item
Equipment: Lolhax has saved up and crafted himself a Headband of Intellect +2. Beyond that, he has a number of scrolls, and a number of spells scribed into his spellbook. He also has a light cross bow--just in case. He does not even bother having a quarterstaff.
AB: the relevant one is ranged touch attacks, on which he has +4 due to his dexterity and size.
Saves: F+6/R+3/W+4
AC: 13, 17 with Mage Armor, 21 with Mage Armor and Shield.
HP: 18
Spell DC: 15+spell level, 16+spell level for illusions.
Spell Slots: 4 cantrips, 4 first level, 2 second level.
Typical spells readied: cantrips, 1x Mage Armor, 2x Color Spray, 1x Grease, 1x Extended Mage Armor, 1x Bull's Strength.
He carries several scrolls of Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, and the like. He casts Shield while the party prepares for combat. He uses Color Spray (Will DC 17) to disable powerful opponents, and Ray of Enfeeblement scrolls to make them weaker if that fails.



I think it should be relatively clear from this just how much the monk is inferior to the Fighter and even the Cleric at this level. He has slightly higher saving throws, but his attack bonus, is lower, his armor class and hit points are lower... even the rogue has a higher attack bonus and armor class, and does far more damage. In addition, he benefits from Bull's Strength less (as Bull's Strength increases AB and damage), from Enlarge Person not at all (he would lose two points of Attack Bonus *and* Armor Class for some damage increase), his Stunning Fist DC is 14 on the most commonly high save and useable thrice/day, requiring a successful attack (at +5 or 6)... out of combat, the rogue covers all functions but Diplomacy, which is left for the cleric. The monk does provide Spot (but had to abandon Listen), which is valuable, but could be compensated for. Essentially any class in the Player's Handbook would be a far more useful fifth character. The bard is comparable to the monk in his suggested "fifth-wheel" role, but the bard is a better face than the rogue, can cast a few useful spells and use a wand of Cure Light Wounds, can Inspire Courage, and is even more adept at social skills than the rogue and cleric, allowing the Rogue to focus on other skills in addition to focusing on another skill or two himself. The bard brings far more to a party in terms of support--and the bard is, by and large, a lacking class outside of social situations!
That is what, in my opinion and drawing on my gaming experience, a player creating a monk has to look forward to: being worse at everything than everyone else, and not being able to contribute significantly. Having a fifth party member is better than not having one (save for the experience point division), but a monk makes a poor one.


I may have mis-built the monk. You (Diamondeye, Giacomo, others) are welcome to build your own. If you like, I will set up a series of diverse encounters (let us say, four of each level we "pause" at) and run us through them--I will do my best to be fair, make the encounters both diverse (perhaps lifting some from the few published adventures I have access to) and the sort you would see in a real campaign, and play the "NPCs" in a party-friendly way; you will be free to point out if I am being unfair to the monk somehow. What say you?


Edit: Talya, people prioritize Dexterity because Intuitive Strike is from a rarely-used splatbook and may or may not (I do not recall if it is an [Exalted] feat or simply in a book with them) require the monk to be Exalted (which is a significant thing for a character, and does not fit the majority of character concepts).
Additionally, overall the monk benefits far less from splatbooks than the other characters. Open up the Complete books and the books of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness, and suddenly the monk is compared, in combat, to a fighter who is no longer a simply basher but a Karmic-Striking, attack-of-opportunity making, tripping, Shock-Trooping tactical warrior.

[TGWG]

hey hey, can I join? I always wanted to create a monk character. Seemed like an interesting concept.

[greenknight]

Why do people insist on prioritizing dexterity over wisdom for a monk? There is absolutely no reason to take dexterity over wisdom for a monk.

To expand on Fourth Tempter's comment, Weapon Finesse is a PHB feat available to anyone with a BAB of +1 or better, while Intuitive Attack is an Exalted feat (requires Good alignment, and only available as a gift from a Diety or Celestial), from the BoED. Furthermore, Dexterity powers several important Monk skills like Hide, Move Silently and Tumble. Wisdom is good for Spot, Listen and Sense Motive, but those skills are often considered to be less important.

Indon, in addition to missing Initiative, you also missed using Weapon Finesse for melee attacks.

[TGWG]

I made the rolls for my lev1 half-elf monk. they are

STR 12
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 11
WIS 17
CHA 9

-my feats are stunning fist, two-weapon fighting, and the given improved unarmed strike
-I put four ranks in listen, move silently, tumble, and spot.
-I have 10 hp and i'm ready to start, just as soon as I can get a party

but could someone tell me where I can find the average wealth per lev is? I need to know when I can get the pariapt of Wisdom +2

[JaronK]

I think it's telling that so many people arguing that the monk is strong enough have barely managed to have the monk beat a poorly played fighter.

If that's the best you can do, you're arguing against yourself.

JaronK

[Gavin Sage]

Diamondeye, those things do NOT apply equally. DR 15/good and cold iron, for example, will hurt the monk (who makes many attacks) far more than the Fighter. In addition, the fighter can use a weapon and overcome that reduction at a slight penalty; the monk switching to a weapon is surrendering his unarmed damage, reducing his damage output even further.
Dragons are essentially the only high-level monster that does not have significant damage reduction.

I'm not going to touch the rest, but you seem to be assuming a Fighter will (not simply may) be carrying around a weapon of the proper type for each damage reduction flavor. While sure basic maybe but also possesing enchantments, thus not sacrificing the bonuses to hit (and damage) on their attacks? I mean a +5 versus no bonus, and are you still using power attack too?

Not to mention aside from weapons they might use a monk's fist cuts through magic, law, and adamantine damage reductions already. And blunt weapons too, which would outright require a fighter to switch off that greatsword to overcome.

[Jasdoif]

but could someone tell me where I can find the average wealth per lev is? I need to know when I can get the pariapt of Wisdom +2The wealth-by-level table is on page 135 of the DMG.


I'm not going to touch the rest, but you seem to be assuming a Fighter will (not simply may) be carrying around a weapon of the proper type for each damage reduction flavor. While sure basic maybe but also possesing enchantments, thus not sacrificing the bonuses to hit (and damage) on their attacks? I mean a +5 versus no bonus, and are you still using power attack too?

Not to mention aside from weapons they might use a monk's fist cuts through magic, law, and adamantine damage reductions already. And blunt weapons too, which would outright require a fighter to switch off that greatsword to overcome.The irony of the whole thing here is that, with a buddy with greater magic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm), those weapons don't even need to be masterwork to pick up a +5 enhancement bonus. Throw in a friend with access to align weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) and all the fighter needs is some plain old ordinary weapons of varying materials to serve as his backup.

A monk can similarly benefit from this by carrying monk weapons for those cold-iron situations and silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen)for those silver situations. You don't get your super unarmed strike damage with those though, you may have to decide if you're better off saying "to heck with it" and sticking with your unarmed strikes, if the damage difference is big enough. (And I do believe you can apply silversheen to a monk's unarmed strike, since it's an effect that enhances a manufactured weapon)


Incidentally, use of greater magic weapon is highly cost-efficient for all custom-made weaponry. That spell can be the difference between a +5 weapon with +4 worth of special properties, and a +5 weapon with no special properties.

[Fourth Tempter]

And now, a mid-level comparison--let's say, oh, level eleven, shall we? The Monk will have his Greater Flurry.

Shadowhand Li, Master of the Shattering Wind style or Grandmaster of the Darkness-Destroying Fist style, Human Monk 11:
Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 18 (22), CON 12, INT 12, WIS 16 (20), CHA 10
Feats: Imp. Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Deflect Arrows (B), Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack, Improved Disarm (B), Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike).

--Spring Attack is the Darkness-Destroying Fist style. Alternatively, Li could learn the Shattering Wind style and thus have Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), followed by Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Equipment (66,000 gp as per the Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 135):
Gloves of Dexterity +4: 16,000 gp
Periapt of Wisdom +4: 16,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +3: 9,000 gp
Ring of Protection +2: 8,000 gp
Boots of Flying: 16,000 gp
The remaining 1,000 gp or so have been spent on consumables. (Incidentally, if you think that the monk ought to have Salves of Slipperiness, well, he would have gone through quite a number by now--many monsters have Improved Grab. Subtract an item or two.)

So, this leaves Shadowhand Li with:
Skills: Jump 14 (26, +12 for speed), Hide 20, Move Silently 20, Spot 19 (17 with the Amulet of Mighty Fists), Use Magic Device 7, Escape Artist 20.
AB: 8 (BAB) +6 (DEX) = 14.
Full attack: a +14/+14/+14/+9 flurry, each hit dealing 3d6 damage. His unarmed strike is considered to be Magic and Lawful. The wizard is kind enough to prepare a Greater Magic Weapon spell for him, making this +16/+16/+16/+11 and 3d6+2.
--Darkness-Destroying Fist: Li can also Spring Attack with his 60' movement speed. It is worth noting that one can not Spring Attack while flying.
--Shattering Wind: Li's full attack is a +15/+15/+15/+10/+15/+10 flurry, each hit still dealing 1d10+2 damage (Greater Magic Weapon assumed).
Saves: F+11/R+16 (Improved Evasion)/Will +15 (+2 vs. Enchant)
AC: 10 + 6 (dexterity) + 5 (wisdom) + 2 (monk) + 2 (ring) = 25; 25 touch, 19 flatfooted. This goes up to a much more solid 29 when the mage grants him a Mage Armor spell.
HP: 64 average.
Initiative: +6.


Meanwhile, his party:
Turin, Dwarven Fighter 11, has acquired a name, if not a particularily original one.
Ability Scores: STR 19 (23), DEX 10 (12), CON 16, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 6
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Improved Initiative, Cleave, Iron Will, Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword)

Equipment:
Belt of Giant Strength +4: 16,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4,000 gp
+1 Fullplate: 2,500 gp (+3, Magic Vestment)
+1 Animated heavy steel shield: 9,000 gp (+3, Magic Vestment)
+1 Adamantine Greatsword: 5,000 gp (+2, greater magic weapon)
Cloak of Resistance +3: 9,000 gp
+1 Composite Longbow (+6 STR): 3,000 gp
Ring of Protection +2: 8,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2: 8,000 gp
The remaining 1,500 gp have been spent on consumables, i.e. wand of Enlarge Person.

Skills: Intimidate 14, Drinking Like A Fish
AB: 11 (BAB) + 6 (STR) + 2 (enhancement) + 3 (Weapon Focuses) = +22
Full Attack: +22/+17/+12, for 2d6+13 a hit.
Saves: F+13/R+7/W+10
AC: 10 + 11 (armor) + 5 (shield) + 2 (deflection) + 2 (natural armor) + 1 (dex) = 31
HP: 93 average.
Initiative: +5
When Enlarged, he receives -2 to AC and +1 damage, but +4 on trip checks (which are +10 normally, +14 enlarged). Tripping gives him an effective +4 AB and is likely to succeed against humanoid opponents. Power Attack against his lower-AC opponents ups his damage. Against flying opponents, he must rely on his bow (bow AB +13/+8/+3 for 1d8+7 damage) or have a scroll of Fly used on him.
Haste (which the wizard often casts, although sometimes from scrolls or a wand) benefits the fighter far more than the monk. It is present in the majority of encounters--certainly in any difficult one.


This is relatively tedious, so suffice it to say that the cleric invokes Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and matches the Fighter, using a Bead of Karma in the morning to provide himself with a +3 weapon, armor, and animated shield (and +3 armor and animated shield for the fighter), while the gnomish wizard has Extended Overland Flight up and casts Greater Invisibility for defense, using spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Fear or Confusion, Slow, Glitterdust, Baleful Polymorph, and Haste, as well; he casts Greater Magic Weapon on the monk and fighter. The rogue has Crippling Strike, which synergizes with the fighter, a dex of 24, and enough UMD (14 ranks, +3 Circlet of Persuasion, +2 MW Tool) to consistently activate a wand and regularly activate low-level scrolls. During tough fights, she is the recipient of Greater Invisibility. Her AB would be +18/+13/+8/+18/+13, plus any flanking and/or invisibility bonuses.

To sum up--the fighter and cleric are heavy-duty melee and have high attack bonuses and high damage; the rogue also does very decent damage. The wizard debuffs and disables enemies, making for the most effective character in the group. In addition, whenever full attacks are impossible, everyone is far better off than the monk.

When they are both hasted, the Fighter's average damage on a full attack against an AC 25 enemy comes out to 61; the monk's--to 46. Against a foe with Damage Reduction, the monk's damage drops more than the fighter's does. Whenever one can not make a full attack, the monk's damage is far less than the fighter's. Li can not trip due to his low strength; he can not disarm due to his low attack bonus (and his -4 penalty for light weapons; if he uses a quarterstaff, then he loses the benefits of weapon finesse and his already-low attack roll still suffers.

So, no, the monk is not useless--but poor Shadowhand Li certainly contributes less to the group than any of his companions. The rogue sneaks better and uses magical devices better and does roguey things as well; the cleric and fighter fight better; et cetera. Replacing him with a member of almost any other class would benefit the party--an archer, in particular. A ranger (and rangers are not a strong class) could help scout just as well, Spot almost as well, Listen, and consistently deliver full attacks with a bow with damage comparable to the monk's.
Replacing the Fighter with a Barbarian would similarily benefit the party. The fighter is better than the monk, but he is still not particularily good.



Edited to add: actually--I have seen discussions of wizards and spell preparation; as a result, let me present Lolhax the Great, Gnomish Archmage-to-be, a Wizard 7/Loremaster 4:
Ability Scores: STR 6, DEX 14 (16), CON 16 (18), INT 20 (26), WIS 14, CHA 8
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Extend Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Focus: Transmutation (Wizard 5), Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana (6), Quicken Spell (9), Improved Initiative (Loremaster secret)

Equipment:
Headband of Intellect +6: 18,000 gp (self-crafted)
Amulet of Health +2: 4,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2: 4,000 gp
Ring of Protection +2: 8,000 gp
+2 Mithral small shield: 5,000 gp
Rod of Extend Spell, greater: 11,000 gp
Rod of Extend Spell, lesser: 3,000 gp
Pearl of Power II: 4,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +3, self-crafted: 4,500 gp
Masterwork Tool(Use Magic Device): 100 gp

Loremaster Secrets: Lore of True Stamina, Applicable Knowledge
Skills: Concentration 18, Knowledge: Arcana 23, Knowledge: the Planes 20, some other knowledges at 1, Hide: 14.5, Tumble: 10, Use Magic Device: 15
AB: on ranged touch attacks, 5 (BAB) + 3 (Dexterity) + 1 (size) = 9, +2 when invisible.
Saves: F+14/R+9/W+14
AC: 10 + 1 (size) + 3 (dexterity) + 4 (mage armor) + 6 (Natural Armor - Alter Self into troglodyte, extended via a rod, then replenished with a Pearl of Power and extended again, then cast from another slot and extended again) + 3 (shield) + 2 (deflection) = 29
HP: 73
Initiative: +7
Spell DC: 18+spell level, 19+spell level for illusions and transmutations
Spell slots: 0th - 4, 1st - 7, 2nd- 6, 3rd - 6, 4th - 5, 5th - 4, 6th - 2.
Typical spells readied:
1st: 2x Mage Armor, 1x Grease, 1x Color Spray, 3x Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd: 2x Alter Self, 2x Glitterdust, 1x Rope Trick, 1x See Invisibility
3rd: 1x Dispel Magic, 2x Haste, 2x Slow, 1x Ray of Exhaustion
4th: 1x Black Tentacles, 2x Confusion, 1x Greater Invisibility, 1x Dimension Door
5th: 2x Baleful Polymorph (Fort DC 24), 1x Wall of Stone, 1x Overland Flight
6th: 1x Repulsion (Will DC 24), 1x Greater Heroism
Prominent scrolls include Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Haste and the like.

A rod-extended Overland Flight lasts the entire day, with Alter Self being up essentially the entire adventuring day. High-DC spells such as Confusion or Baleful Polymorph make short work of monsters when targeted at weak saves; debuffs such as Ray of Enfeeblement help when single spells do not end the encounter. In addition, there are a number of helpful buffing spells, such as Greater Heroism and Mage Armor, and hindering spells, such as the amazing Slow or Glitterdust.

Not all CR 10-12 monsters fly; in fact, quite a number (and NPCs) do not, which means that Overland Flight will keep him safe from them entirely. Even if he is attacked, he has a solid Armor Class and more than decent hit points for a spellcaster. In addition, he can use Repulsion or Dimension Door when it is absolutely necessary. "Lolhax" does not, in fact, "hax" by using Polymorph or do anything else that would be unacceptable in the amjority of reasonable games. In addition, his Fortitude saving throw is quite nice.

[Indon]

So here is our daring human monk--let us name him Shadowhand Li, a quick and insightful youth who may well have been a Ninja had he but reached maturity after the release of the Complete Adventurer. Alas, it was not to be--built optimally on a thirty-two-point buy, the monastically-trained Li may well look like this:

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 10

Li selects Stunning Fist as his bonus feat, Dodge as his human feat, and, uh, I suppose Mobility. For his skills, he places maximum ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Jump, Tumble, and Escape Artist. He requires Escape Artist so he can attempt to escape grapples, he requires Tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity, he has neglected Listen in favor of Jump, and he selected Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. He has no skill points left for Use Magic Device, although he could lose Tumble. In fact, he does--he decides magic is too useful to do without.

Level one does not exist and level two flies by (fortunate--at that level, he must resort to flinging shuriken or firing a crossbow, as he lacks Weapon Finesse); at level three, Li has picked up Deflect Arrows, Evasion, Still Mind, has a 40-foot speed. He must take Weapon Finessefor his feat. He has six ranks in all of his skills, giving him Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Spot 9, Jump 9, Use Magic Device 4.5, Escape Artist 9. With HP full at first level and average thereafter, he has 20 hit points.

His attack bonus is +5, +3/+3 when flurrying, +5/+5 when flurrying and flanking. He does 1d6 damage. For reference, 15 and 16 are the most common armor classes for monsters Challenge Rating 2 to 4, although 18s are not uncommon. NPCs can be expected to have 18 AC or more as well.
His saving throws are F+5/R+6/W+6. He has 2,700 gold, and he has spent some of it on a masterwork kama for when he needs slashing damage and saved the rest to purchase a Ring of Protection. His AC is 17. He has, you will note, a distinct lack of a thousand gold pieces to spend on a Salve of Slipperiness.


Li has left his monastery, his masters having advised him that he must experience real combat if he is to advance beyond novice status; along the way he met Sharra, a quick-talking halfling rogue who persuaded him to join her in forming a company of adventurers. To make a long story short, they acquire companions in a comical fashion, and the lot head off to badger random passers-by about "quests".

When the party has time to prepare, Bless gives him +1 to hit, as he would not particularily benefit from Enlarge Person and benefit far less than the cleric and fighter from Bull's Strength.


All right.

Meet Steve. He's just a guy, you know, who picked up how to do rockin' ki attacks and stuff on his own by studying Tai Bo manuals at the wizards' college his parents tried (and failed) to pay his way through. As a human on a 32-point buy built optimally, his stats look like this:

Str 13
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 8

He picked up more weapons skills in his youth than most monastery individuals, and so his first level feat is Simple Weapon Proficiency. He's a big fan of hitting hard with a quarterstaff, though, so with his other feat, he takes Power Attack. His monk feat is also stunning fist, though really it's more like a stunning knee/foot if you know what I mean.

For his skills, he places maximum ranks in Listen, Spot, Move Silently, and Tumble. He maxes Listen and Spot because he knows it's good to be aware, he maxes Move Silently but not Hide because if he's hiding from someone, he's not going to get close enough so that they can see him... but he might be behind a wall or something and sound can carry. He puts two cross-class ranks into Use Magic Device (the result of an unfortunate incident at the college which I shalln't repeat), and puts the rest into Sense Motive, because he's got an ear for when someone's BS'ing him.

During level 1, he easily takes out basement rats with his 1d6+1 quarterstaff attack. Really, basement rats are great fodder. At level 2, he picks Combat Reflexes, because he knows the value of taking up an opportunity, and picks up Evasion. At level 3, he has Still Mind, a 40-foot speed, and he takes Combat Expertise. Heck, by now, he can even do something with it.

He has Listen 8, Spot 8, Move Silently 8, Tumble 8, Use Magic Device 0, Sense Motive 6. At full first HD and average afterwards, he has 23 health (The average of 1d8 is 4.5, thus 2d8 is 9, not 8).

His melee attack is +3, +1/+1 when flurrying, +1 when using Expertise, -1/-1 when flurrying with Expertise, +1 when full Power Attacking with his quarterstaff, -1/-1 when full Power Attacking on a Flurry, -3/-3 when full Power Attacking on a Flurry and using Expertise, and -7/-7/-13 when full Power Attacking on a Flurry, using Expertise and using his quarterstaff as a double weapon; he does whatever he feels appropriate for the moment (It's +5 if he charges into a flanking position while using power attack, btw). He deals 1d6+1 with his quarterstaff, and 1d6+5 with his quarterstaff when flurrying. He deals 1d6+1 damage with his gauntlets, as well, which he prefers because his hands have a tendency to bruise when he breaks too many bones in one day.

His saving throws are F+5/R+5/W+5. He also, coincidentally, has 2,700 gold, which he spent on masterwork gauntlets (with which he makes unarmed attacks, dealing his unarmed damage) which he generally doesn't use very often, preferring the crunch of his quarterstaff. He spent most of his gold to buy an awesome magic item he found at the market called a "Handy Haversack", which he then filled with a variety of dubiously useful adventuring items such as ten-foot poles.

He has an AC of 14, 16 if he uses Combat Expertise. If something grapples him, he eats the -4 to hit and just flurries it with his unarmed strike (possibly using one of his Stunning Blows); luckily, his gauntlets are masterwork. If something grapples anyone he's traveling with, he tumbles over to it and cracks its' head open with his quarterstaff. He honestly doesn't care much about buffs, but he's a pretty big fan of setting up with his tumbling ability for charges into a flanking position, or tumbling so that someone else in his group can do the same.

His Stunning Fist save DC is 13, and he's shocked how many monsters have their junk in exotic places.

So, yeah. I feel Steve is a much superior setup for the long haul, with more balanced saves, more stats overall, more tactical options, and a +1 masterwork bonus on his unarmed attacks. Also, more health, and he's a more functional adventurer, since instead of buying a pitiful +1 AC ring, he bought something _really_ useful for adventuring (I am, of course, referring to the ten-foot pole). If he wants AC that bad, he could buy a better one later.

Edit: Man, now I have to make Steve level 11?

[Jasdoif]

If something grapples him, he eats the -4 to hit and just flurries it with his unarmed strike (possibly using one of his Stunning Blows)You can't flurry in a grapple. The number of grapple checks you can make is determined by your BAB, not by how many attacks you could make in a full attack.

[Fourth Tempter]

Indon, is that, well... serious?

[Indon]

Indon, is that, well... serious?

You made a monk with spring attack and expect people to think it's optimized.

A few things you could do to make Li flatly more useful, at level 11:

Put ranks into Sense Motive. It's a pretty big, obvious skill niche sitting right in front of you. You don't need UMD if you're in a party with spellcasters and a rogue; UMD is referred to as useful for a soloer, in situations without an actual party or party support.

Mage armor doesn't work, it provides an armor bonus. FYI.

Drop Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and pick up Simple Weapon Proficiency. Drop one of your 16,000 GP magic items and get a +2 Cold Iron Gauntlet. (or, go the extra bit and free up 20,000 GP and get a +1 Wounding Cold Iron Gauntlet). Monks can use magic items with their unarmed strikes, per core. This got brought up like 10 times in the thread, and how to do so was exquisitely detailed.

Edit: To make it perfectly clear-
1.Take Simple Weapon Proficiency feat (or a 1-level dip of, well, any class that isn't a druid or something).
2.Get Gauntlets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet).
3.Enchant gauntlets.
4.???
5.Deal unarmed damage dice with magic weapon.


Why does the Monk need Boots of Flying and the Fighter doesn't?

[Diggorian]

You can't flurry in a grapple. The number of grapple checks you can make is determined by your BAB, not by how many attacks you could make in a full attack.

Actually you can. Newest D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 20. The monk can perform any special attack with one of his special weapons that takes the place of a normal attack. You can Flurry of Grapples, Sunders, Disarms or Trips.

[Zincorium]

Actually you can. Newest D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 20. The monk can perform any special attack with one of his special weapons that takes the place of a normal attack. You can Flurry of Grapples, Sunders, Disarms or Trips.

Um, you're putting the cart in front of the monk here. A monk can initiate a grapple with every single attack in a flurry, you have that much correct.

However.

Once in the grapple, the monk is no longer able to use the flurry of blows.

[Emperor Tippy]

You made a monk with spring attack and expect people to think it's optimized.

Neither the fighter or the monk are optimized as well as they could be.


A few things you could do to make Li flatly more useful, at level 11:

Put ranks into Sense Motive. It's a pretty big, obvious skill niche sitting right in front of you. You don't need UMD if you're in a party with spellcasters and a rogue; UMD is referred to as useful for a soloer, in situations without an actual party or party support.

Sense Motive has no effect on combat. So it is unimportant.

UMD is for personal range buffs from scrolls.


Mage armor doesn't work, it provides an armor bonus. FYI.

Mage armor works just fine on monks. Wearing armor causes the monk to lose her AC bonus. Not having an armor bonus. It is a very important distinction.


Drop Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and pick up Simple Weapon Proficiency. Drop one of your 16,000 GP magic items and get a +2 Cold Iron Gauntlet. (or, go the extra bit and free up 20,000 GP and get a +1 Wounding Cold Iron Gauntlet). Monks can use magic items with their unarmed strikes, per core. This got brought up like 10 times in the thread, and how to do so was exquisitely detailed.

Simple Weapon Proficiency isn't worth it. The monks fists are better than a quarter staff. 1d10 is better than 1d6.


Why does the Monk need Boots of Flying and the Fighter doesn't?

Because the fighter can use a bow. The monk can't.

[Fourth Tempter]

You made a monk with spring attack and expect people to think it's optimized.
For a monk in a support role who wants to avoid having a monster grapple or full attack him and actually take advantage of his speed, it is certainly tolerable. It does not compare with Two-Weapon Fighting for damage output, however, no; I included that option as well.


A few things you could do to make Li flatly more useful, at level 11: Put ranks into Sense Motive. It's a pretty big, obvious skill niche sitting right in front of you. You don't need UMD if you're in a party with spellcasters and a rogue; UMD is referred to as useful for a soloer, in situations without an actual party or party support.
Use Magic Device was for Giacomo, who was very big on the Use Magic Device skill being taken cross-class making the monk viable. Freeing up those points would be useful, but surely Tumble is a far better choice than Sense Motive? Sense Motive is for the party faces, which the monk is not. I am not so sure why the monk (who has a lack of skill points when compared to the many skills he will want) needs it. I would go with Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Tumble, Spot, and Listen for a monk with six skill points if I were to play one.


Mage armor doesn't work, it provides an armor bonus. FYI.
Yes--and? Monks may not wear armor. One does not wear mage armor; it is a spell effect--weightless and all. Monks can and should benefit from it.


Drop Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and pick up Simple Weapon Proficiency. Drop one of your 16,000 GP magic items and get a +2 Cold Iron Gauntlet. (or, go the extra bit and free up 20,000 GP and get a +1 Wounding Cold Iron Gauntlet). Monks can use magic items with their unarmed strikes, per core. This got brought up like 10 times in the thread, and how to do so was exquisitely detailed.
If they spend a feat on proficiency, yes; you would need two separate gauntlets, however, as a gauntlet is a single weapon and you could not Two-Weapon Fight with one gauntlet. Two gauntlets are expensive. Also, there is the following issue:


Edit: To make it perfectly clear-
1.Take Simple Weapon Proficiency feat.
2.Get Gauntlets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet).
3.Enchant gauntlets.
4.???
5.Deal unarmed damage dice with magic weapon.
But gauntlets are not special monk weapons--a strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack, but it also remains a weapon (and would be subject to any effect that specifically targets weapons, such as a spell that does damage to a weapon that strikes it, if such a thing were to exist). The presence of the Amulet of Mighty Fists in the core rules seems to lend pretty clear credence to the fact that, no, the gauntlet trick does not work. Customer Service has, I believe, supported this view.


Why does the Monk need Boots of Flying and the Fighter doesn't?
Because the fighter is the heavy damage dealer, so if the spellcasters are going to spend a turn enhancing someone to fight a mobile flying monster, it will be him. A cleric can fly under his own power with the Travel domain (but may want the boots in any case). A monk is supposed to be relatively self-reliant, as any fifth wheel ought to be. In addition, the monk is not proficient with any useful ranged weapons.

The fighter would have Boots of Flying by the next level, however.

I am going off for dinner, but when I return I will touch up Li at some point.
Perhaps you could even alter Li's build yourself, if you have the time for a joke character--after all, I am on the "monks are weak" side of the argument, and it is rather ironic that I am the one designing the monk, here.

[Indon]

Sense Motive has no effect on combat. So it is unimportant.

UMD is for personal range buffs from scrolls.

UMD doesn't require that many ranks if you're just going to try over and over to be able to use them, seems to me.



Mage armor works just fine on monks. Wearing armor causes the monk to lose her AC bonus. Not having an armor bonus. It is a very important distinction.

O.O

Now this I was unaware of. Bracers of Armor are in the future of my next monk.



Simple Weapon Proficiency isn't worth it. The monks fists are better than a quarter staff. 1d10 is better than 1d6.

I can only imagine you clicked on reply before I edited in the step-by-step instructions.



Because the fighter can use a bow. The monk can't.

The monk with simple weapon proficiency can use a crossbow, or a sling. It's not like ranged damage is a high-numbers game, though admittedly with the boots of flying the monk can be significantly more potent in the air than a fighter with a bow is.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Edit: Man, now I have to make Steve level 11?No, you don't. Steve will never survive to level 11. Either he'll perish in real combat, or he'll die of old age trying to level up on those basement rats.
The monk with simple weapon proficiency can use a crossbow, or a sling. It's not like ranged damage is a high-numbers game, though admittedly with the boots of flying the monk can be significantly more potent in the air than a fighter with a bow is.You continue to completely miss the Monk's relatively few strengths. If a monk is going to do ranged damage, he loads on up poisoned shurikens and flurries with them. Crossbows and slings are made of lose and fail.

[Indon]

But gauntlets are not special monk weapons--a strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack, but it also remains a weapon (and would be subject to any effect that specifically targets weapons, such as a spell that does damage to a weapon that strikes it, if such a thing were to exist). The presence of the Amulet of Mighty Fists in the core rules seems to lend pretty clear credence to the fact that, no, the gauntlet trick does not work. Customer Service has, I believe, supported this view.


The amulet of mighty fists adds its' bonus to natural weapons. You can't wear gauntlets over a bite attack.


You continue to completely miss the Monk's relatively few strengths. If a monk is going to do ranged damage, he loads on up poisoned shurikens and flurries with them. Crossbows and slings are made of lose and fail.

Shruiken are expensive, though, since they're a throwing weapon that can't be made to return (as, being treated as ammunition, a hit destroys one). Ammunition-rate, yes, but they're expendible like ammunition, making enhancing them a pricey proposition. With a sling or bow, you can enhance the caster and use cheap ammo. Adventuring is as much a logistics problem as it is a tactics one.

[Tor the Fallen]

Unless the monk also happens to be the arcanist's familiar, how the heck does he get Mage Armor cast on him?
A potion?

[Diggorian]

Once in the grapple, the monk is no longer able to use the flurry of blows.

Why not?

you can use the Attack your Opponent option with natural weapons. Although unarmed attacks arent exactly natural weapons, why cant ya flurry adding any penalties to the -4?

[Gavin Sage]

The irony of the whole thing here is that, with a buddy with greater magic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm), those weapons don't even need to be masterwork to pick up a +5 enhancement bonus. Throw in a friend with access to align weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) and all the fighter needs is some plain old ordinary weapons of varying materials to serve as his backup.

A monk can similarly benefit from this by carrying monk weapons for those cold-iron situations and silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen)for those silver situations. You don't get your super unarmed strike damage with those though, you may have to decide if you're better off saying "to heck with it" and sticking with your unarmed strikes, if the damage difference is big enough. (And I do believe you can apply silversheen to a monk's unarmed strike, since it's an effect that enhances a manufactured weapon)


Incidentally, use of greater magic weapon is highly cost-efficient for all custom-made weaponry. That spell can be the difference between a +5 weapon with +4 worth of special properties, and a +5 weapon with no special properties.

Yes but once you bring other party members into things we aren't simply talking about class capablities and equipment. I agree though that silversheen doesn't mention anything other then weapon so it should be useable on a monk's fist. Even if the monk is left tough for some damage reductions, its not like it absolutely has to match a fighter to be considered worthwhile as a class.

I can accept a monk not being quite as damaging but its one not to be dismissed either is my thing. Especially when back by all those nice saves, spell resistance, evasion etc.

[Dhavaer]

Unless the monk also happens to be the arcanist's familiar, how the heck does he get Mage Armor cast on him?
A potion?

Presumably the party mage casts it on the monk.

[Tor the Fallen]

Presumably the party mage casts it on the monk.

Huh, it's touch. I always thought it had a range of personal.

[Hypothetical]

OK, I only read about half of the first page, so sorry if any of this has been mentioned before....

The Monk is designed for the "Vow of Poverty".

The unarmed attacks don't look so great, until you factor in the one little Exalted Feat.

By Level 19 ( started at level 7) the astetic Monk, has a nice little increase to 4 seperate Stats, and at 19 the total increase is +8/+6/+4/+2. The Smart Monk takes those bonus's to, in order, Str, Wis, Dex, and Con. ( OK, depending on your intitial choices, you may go Con , Dex, instead.) Not only do you get Stupid high bonuses to AC from the VoPov, but you then get even more from the Wis adds. Your Str bonus, added to the VoPov weapon adds ( which do apply to hands, BTW) makes your attacks do just short of Awesome damage for a Melee.

Then, the VoPov gives you an added avantage. Every other even numbered Level (Up to 20th)hands you a free Exalted Feat. If you take this route, you already have Sacred Vow, so Diplomacy adds like, oh say Nimbus of Light, are FTW moves.

[Jasdoif]

Why not?

you can use the Attack your Opponent option with natural weapons. Although unarmed attacks arent exactly natural weapons, why cant ya flurry adding any penalties to the -4?Notice that "full attack" is not in the list of things you can do in a grapple. Flurry of blows requires you to make a full attack. You can make multiple attacks in a round, if your BAB is high enough, however this is not a full attack.

Also the "attack your opponent" option allows using a natural weapon, light weapon or unarmed strike, so the monk is well-covered there.


Yes but once you bring other party members into things we aren't simply talking about class capablities and equipment.I thought we were now going over the classes' usefulness to a party. Being a party, the "every character for themselves" mentality should not be the prevailing one. That applies to the party's casters as well as the monk, fighter or rogue who happen to be the subject of discussion.

[Glyphic]

Notice that "full attack" is not in the list of things you can do in a grapple. Flurry of blows requires you to make a full attack. You can make multiple attacks in a round, if your BAB is high enough, however this is not a full attack.

pg 143 PBH. Full attack: If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough... You must use a full round action to get your additional attacks.

[Merlin the Tuna]

OK, I only read about half of the first page, so sorry if any of this has been mentioned before....

The Monk is designed for the "Vow of Poverty".It's been mentioned before. And it's not true. Despite the flavor text, the monk's abilities result in him being more item dependent than most other classes... and VoP ultimately shortchanges you anyway, unless your DM comes in well under the wealth-by-level guidelines.

[Diggorian]

Notice that "full attack" is not in the list of things you can do in a grapple. Flurry of blows requires you to make a full attack. You can make multiple attacks in a round, if your BAB is high enough, however this is not a full attack.

Using multiple attacks is always a full round action isnt it?

If my "If Your Grappling" action takes the place of an attack, so I can use them in place of my iterative attacks from BAB, why not from flurry of blows?

Got any website or RAW citations to back ya?

[Fourth Tempter]

The Amulet of Mighty Fists does apply to bite attacks, but player characters do not, traditionally, have those--additionally, it is called the Amulet of Mighty Fists. It is fairly clear that it was designed with monks in mind.

My reading of the rules is that neither by the rules as written nor by the rules as implied may the monk make unarmed attacks just as he would otherwise save wearing a gauntlet. Frankly, that ought to be changed, but it has not been, and in the majority of games, monks remain unable to use gauntlets (to the best of my knowledge and experience, that is).


Hypothetical, the Vow of Poverty has, in fact, been discussed. If you compare it to what you can purchase with the wealth your items are supposed to sum up to at each level, Vow of Poverty leaves you at a disadvantage at most levels.
Especially since it leaves you unable to fly.
It is a poor feat for anyone except Druids, who are not necessarily better off taking it.

[Jasdoif]

Using multiple attacks is always a full round action isnt it?

If my "If Your Grappling" action takes the place of an attack, so I can use them in place of my iterative attacks from BAB, why not from flurry of blows?

Got any website or RAW citations to back ya?Sure, here's the list of options you have while grappling. I've omitted the descriptions that don't apply, it's kind of a big section.


When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item
....

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell
....

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon
....

Escape from Grapple
....

Move
....

Retrieve a Spell Component
....

Pin Your Opponent
....

Break Another’s Pin
....

Use Opponent’s Weapon
....

"You can make an attack" is definitely singular. Now, on this part I could be mistaken, but I believe this is also the base "attack" that other actions can be used in the place of; which means they share the limit of "how many attacks your BAB gives you" that the "in place of an attack" options have. If I'm wrong on this, you're only allowed to make a single attack regardless of your BAB, which...still doesn't let you flurry.

Note that it may make more sense for a monk to try dealing damage with an opposed grapple check, instead of taking a -4 penalty on a regular attack.

[lord_khaine]

The Amulet of Mighty Fists does apply to bite attacks, but player characters do not, traditionally, have those--additionally, it is called the Amulet of Mighty Fists. It is fairly clear that it was designed with monks in mind.

My reading of the rules is that neither by the rules as written nor by the rules as implied may the monk make unarmed attacks just as he would otherwise save wearing a gauntlet. Frankly, that ought to be changed, but it has not been, and in the majority of games, monks remain unable to use gauntlets (to the best of my knowledge and experience, that is)

arrgggg, how many times do we have to say it? the monk CAN USE a gauntlet, read the FAQ.

ok sorry if i overreact, but this makes a huge difference for the monks damage output, it has been put up severeal times, and you continuously ignore it.

[Fourth Tempter]

I have not seen a ruling on monks using gauntlets in this thread. Could you quote it?

[lord_khaine]

ok Fourth Tempter, ill give my on try on making a lv 11 monk, to broaden the picture a bit.

Mash, human monk 11, LG.
Str : 16 (20) AC: 23 with mage armor.
Dex: 14 Fort: 11
Con: 14 Ref: 11
Int : 12 Will: 13
Wis: 16 (18)
Cha: 8

Feats: simple weapon proficiency, improved grapple, improved initiative, ability focus(stunning fist), improved natural attack.
Feats, Bonus: stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved trip.

Gear: +1 Holy Gauntlet 18K. ring of protection (+1) 2k. belt of giant str (+4) 16k. amulet of wisdom (+2) 8k. Boots of speed 12k.
cloak of resistance (+2) 4k. 10 potions of enlarge 0.5k. 10 potions of mage armor 0.5k. 3 potions of fly 2.2k. with around 6k to spare on stuff.

with the friendly mage buffing Greater magic weapon, his full attack used during his 10 rounds of hast will look like this.
Full Attack: +16/+16/+16/+16/+11
Damage: 2d6+7, 4d6+7 againts a evil opponent 2d8+2d6+8 against a evil opponent while enlarget.

and more important, while enlarget his grapple modifier is +21, making it possibel for him to grapple most things of up to large size they encounter, whereafter his Rogue buddy can pull out the knifes and start to sneak attack.

agains several mediumsized opponents he can instead start to trip, having
+13 on a opposed str chek, this makes him quite good at battlefield control as well.

and lastly, his stunning fist attack got a dc of 21, that means even someone with a good fort save got a actual chance of failing it.

[lord_khaine]

your wish is my command, from the 3.5 d&d FAQ, page 20


can a monk treat an attack with a gauntlet as an
unarmed strike?
A monk could wear such an item and treat it as an unarmed
strike (since the Player’s Handbook says that “a strike with a
gauntlet is . . . considered an unarmed attack”), although the
damage dealt by the gauntlet would always be considered lethal
damage (as noted in the gauntlet entry) and the monk would
suffer a nonproficiency penalty (since the gauntlet is a simple
weapon). The monk could even use gauntlet attacks as part of a
flurry of blows.

[Talya]

It's been mentioned before. And it's not true. Despite the flavor text, the monk's abilities result in him being more item dependent than most other classes... and VoP ultimately shortchanges you anyway, unless your DM comes in well under the wealth-by-level guidelines.

And as i have pointed out repeatedly, which nobody has been able to refute, a VOP gives a number of things that equipment cannot duplicate, and far more than the "wealth by level" worth of goodies.

Let's go through them step by step:

Armor bonus: +10 (cannot duplicate. bracer @ +8 costs 64,000gp)
Enhancement bonus to natural attacks: +5 (Amulet of Mighty Fists 150,000gp)
Energy Resistance (All): 15 (ring of energy resistance 20 costs 28,000gp--each. You'd need five of them.)
Ability Score Enhancement: +8 (epic, 640,000gp)
Ability Score Enhancement: +6 (36,000gp)
Ability Score Enhancement: +4 (16,000gp)
Ability Score Enhancement: +2 (4,000gp)
Damage Reduction: 10/evil (Not sure if it can be duplicated)
Permanent True Seeing: (Not sure if it can be duplicated)
Deflection bonus: +3 (ring 18,000gp)
Natural Armor bonus: +3 (amulet 18,000gp)
Regeneration: (ring 90,000gp)
Freedom of Movement: (ring 40,000gp)
Resistance Bonus: +3 (cloak 9,000gp)
Sustenance: (ring, 2500gp--although it doesn't specifically eliminate the need for food in the description)
Greater Sustenance: (need an item that lets you go without breathing. I'm sure they exist, can't think of it right now, though)

10 bonus exalted feats, which can include:
Move attack modifier from strength to wisdom
+2d6 holy damage onto each attack - Equivalent of +14 strength. How's that for bonus damage, per hit? Not to mention that there's no DR or ER in the game that can block it
+4 to the DC of stunning fist
+another 4 to the DC of stunning fist, stacks
+2 more armor bonus/+2 more deflection bonus/+2 more natural armor bonus to the above
+bonus to monk spell resistance
Chance of inflicting 3d6 dex damage on any given hit (DC14 fort save per hit, mutually exclusive with extra armor/deflection/natural bonus above.)
Ability to harm/destroy undead (area)
Ability to heal through voluntary constitution damage to yourself
And more...

Now, you've got a point if you mention flight, but assuming you take a flight capable monk (or find another way to get it, which exists), how exactly do you think pre-epic equipment will ever compare to the above, again?

Edit: That's all without mentioning that even if you could get all that equipment, much of it is going to use the same item location. Good luck wearing 8 rings, 3 amulets, etc.

Edit again: Forgot freedom of movement.

[Sir Giacomo]

Woosh, one day gone, and again so many posts.

Will try to answer Forth Tempter's first answer to my post where I summarised the monk'S strengths and weaknesses. Great ideas about monk builds, but so far I think convincing neither side. I'll try to give some thoughts on that below.


The numbers given have been contextless, and, often, misleading (for example, assuming one and a half rounds and many rounds of preparation for one's calculations is not a smooth move).

Well, there were mistakes in it, but the overall picture remains imo (like a monk doing 300-400 damage per round at lvl 20). But it's much better focused now on the lvl 1-12 builds, and I'll try to contribute to those.


The monk flies with a 60' speed at most, adding his +60' if he is a twentieth-level monk for 120'. Haste is an enhancement bonus to speed, as is the monk's movement speed increase.

You are correct! I confounded it because on enhancement source is extraordinary, the other magical. But they should not stack.
However, the charge would still be possible, since you could start at 125ft from the balor, getting you within 5ft necessary for the attack. You could also try form 130ft, getting within 10ft, then take 5ft step after winning initiative.


Save that balors do not sit contentedly in the middle of fields.

It does not matter if it sits, stands, talks to a minion, readies an action to fight someone trying to strike it whatever- if it is surprised, it is surprised. Arguably 120ft charge straigth line is not possible. But a move (flying) is possible easily. Start from 130ft, get within 10ft, win initiative, step 5ft and win with flurry beauty full attack.



I bemoan the situation you outlined because you selected a situation that is not relevant to any sort of real play. Honestly! You grant your monk a surprise round and initiative, and not only that, but you give him the aid of friendly spellcasters for his Rings of Spell Storing, and you even go so far as to assume he will always have an Antimagic Field he has a 30% chance at level 20 of producing! That is, when fighting a spellcaster--the most mobile kind of enemy--he will always know far enough in advance to attempt to activate a scroll repeatedly, before charging in undetected..

I did not "grant" a surprise round. I showed that the balor had no chance at all to detect the monk, barring spells or items not specifically outlined for the balor in its MM desription. Initiative is likewise won since the monk's initiative modifier is so much higher, plus he can use a re-roll from the luckblade.
AMF can be cast way before (it lasts at least 110 mins), and retried as often as liked with UMD before (except on a natural "1", then a day needs to pass for a new try). When he is in a combat with a spellcaster, he will likely not waste a standard action to get AMF up (in particular since in that standard action the spelluser could flee/move outside the AMF with fly). He will attack the spellcaster. Flying will not help him if the monk can also magically fly by the AMF levels (much faster, incidently, since his monk movement bonus enhances his fly speed as well).



The items you outlined are not the only ones the monk will need--besides which, a level 15 monk would only have 200,000 gold worth of equipment. What does he purchase? Does he have NO other items and only one ring of spell storing?

If at level 15, of course the level 20 dimension weapons and rings will no longer be necessary. In that case an overall +5 weapon plus one ring of spell storing may be sufficient, plus the remaining usual stuff for such a character (save, AC boosters, boots of speed, whatever). Note that now the challenge for a lvl 15 character should be no longer a balor, but something else that the monk could tackle.



Where are you getting so many Divine Powers? When are you activating them? Are you expending a combat round (one on this, another on Righteous Might, and so on)?

"So many"? Only one is needed. Activation is ahead of combat like all buffs. But it could also be done in combat, since it is an item and does not draw AoO.
You see, the balor is actually quite a bad monster for a monk to take on, since it is one of those rare critters where neither an AMF strategy works, nor his normal stunning/quivering palm attacks will not be quite successful (and neither his normal unarmed attacks).
So for those rare occasions, a divine power and sheer damage and flurry can help.



Improved Natural Attack increases damage slightly, but not up to par (a high-dexerity/wisdom monk will do little damage). Attack bonus increases are more useful than flaming and the like, incidentally.


The role of the monk is not to be a major damage dealer of the group, but help others in doing so by drawing the enemy fire and providing them with excellent tactical boosts (I outlined them already). He has, actually, the best tank role in the party.



A high-dexterity, high-wisdom monk will have a low Constitution (meaning his good Fortitude saving throws are in fact mediocre) leading to low hit points, and he will do little damage. No character can afford to neglect Constitution, and a low-strength character requires an extra damage source.

Really? OK, in that case CON will be "low" (or rather, third choice?) for all classes, because all would be happy to focus on at least 2 non-CON stats:
Paladin: WIS, CHR, STR
Ranger: STR, DEX, WIS (for spells)
Wizard: INT, DEX (latter for rays, AC and initiative. The wizard who goes last is a dead wizard)
Sorcerer: CHR, DEX (see wizard)
Bard: CHR, DEX
Rogue: DEX (here most flexible, could take CON)
Fighter: STR, DEX (or CON)
Barbarian: STR, DEX (or CON)
Cleric: WIS, CHR
Druid: WIS (actually, with wildshape, he makes no use of focusing on CON, but may like CHR to deal with animals)



The concept of relying on Antimagic Field and Use Magic Device is absolutely ridiculous, as you have a 30% chance of activating the Field in combat at 20th level, and doing so is a poor decision 99 times out of 100, as it only helps when you are beside a pure spellcaster. Monsters will smile and eat the antimagic monk.


Ridiculous? At high levels? With the monk's move and unarmed damage? Note: it is NOT always up. You see, the sense of a tactics is that it does not need to always apply. It is vs those who heavily rely on magic (spellcasters). As I said already several times, vs monsters like balors or those who even "eat" antimagic monk (the ones without big magic powers), it is of course stupid.



Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Use Magic Device cross-class... so, how are you acquiring Tumble ranks, or the Jump you were boasting of? Monks can not afford to raise Intelligence and have four base skill points. They can, in fact, not both sneak and be alert and do everything else you described.


Not all skills need to be maxed out lvls 1-20. That depends on what kind of monk you want to play and what strategy he should have. You seem to be collecting everything I said in response to anti-monk strategies and assume that a hypothetical monk will be able to do all those things at once. No class can do that (OK, maybe spellusers at high levels...:smallbiggrin: ).



Now, if only that were relevant for any opponents but the ones sitting in the middle of a field with True Strike.


?



Completely irrelevant. How many feats you have means nothing--for example, the Samurai class has a number of "feats"... and they are all terrible.


Like number of spells, number of hit points, number of stat bonuses, number of feats of course matter. If it were really bad feats (like skill focus basket weaving or suc), you might be correct.
But Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, combat reflexes and improved disarm (as an example) are hardly useless feats and fit the monk role nicely.



Their Dimension Door is once per day, their self-healing is a negligible amount, poison immunity is highly situational, and while Spell Resistance is nice, it, too, is situational for a player character (and it should be higher to truly matter).

You see, most special abilities are highly situational. Even a save bonus is (since it does not help the character get across the street) or even wish supernatural ability (since it will not help a character who sleeps and cannot utter the wish if attacked. Even if he wished for some contingency combo, that likewise is...situational!).
If those abilities you listed exist (and there are many more), they make the monk BETTER, no matter the situational factor.



They do have the best base saves; kindly note that this is a far cry from having the best total saves. Clerics and druids will both have better Fortitude and Will saves. Any other class with a good Fortitude save will have a better Fortitude save. In addition, if they wish to wear Wings of Flying, they must give up their Cloak of Resistance, losing an effective +5 in comparison.

Druids and Clerics have worse saves than the monk, since the latter also focuses on WIS and CON in the same priority as do druids and clerics (maybe the druid with the constant wildshape up has better Fort saves, but likely worse Reflex saves). The only class with better saves (possibly!) is the Paladin. But this has already been answered since yesterday.
For flying effects, they can use potions, scrolls, boots, mounts, whathave you. Your point being?



Best at *unarmed* combat. What of it? There is no need for unarmed combat. Even if every single campaign, characters are taken prisoner (how often does this happen, precisely, per game?) that is a rare situation. The lack of Base Attack Bonus is not outshone by the higher damage, because their damage is low, as they are raising Dexterity and Wisdom.


When can you use unarmed combat? OK, I'll list it for you
- when prisoner
- when grappled
- when weapon is disarmed
- when weapon is sundered
- when in confined spaces
- when weapon is not drawn yet (and you do not have the quickdraw feat, so you waste a full round attack)
- when your weapon is stolen (DC 20 sleight of hand check is all that is needed if weapon is small; but a larger one can easily be stolen while you sleep)
Need I go on?
Sure, it's all again...situational!


Without saving throw improvers, their saving throws lag behind. They require magical equipment that other classes do not, they have equipment conflicts (which amulet are you wearing, again? A Periapt of Wisdom, an Amulet of Natural Armor, or an Amulet of Mighty Fists?) and in general need no less gold to spend than other classes.

W..H...A...T...?
Saving throws no turning from "behind clerics and druids" which is already wrong to "lagging behind"? You're joking, of course.
Once more (why is this so difficult to understand):
BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER SAVES THAN MOST (excepting the Paladin in most circumstances), BETTER DEFENSES, MORE SPECIAL ABILITIES, THEY NEED LESS!!!!! MAGIC ITEMS THAN OTHER CLASSES.
Especially the non-caster classes.
Fighter needs way to get out of black tentacles and solid fog? Monk already has abundant step.
Rogue needs items to boost his fort and will saves? Monk has it already up without such items.
Babarian needs to be taken to next cleric to get rid of magical disease? Monk has disease immunity from low levels already.
Fighter wants to up his spell immunity and buys expensive item at higher levels? Monk already got spell resistance.
Rogue wants to be immune to poison and buys periapt to escape his enemies' murder attempts and many traps' main damage? Monk already got poison immunity.
Babarian wants to reduce the damage of pesky reflex-needing spells and buys ring of evasion? Monk already got evasion and is ahead of the rogue with improved evasion.
Fighter wants to avoid falling damage and buys ring of feather falling? Monk already got tumbling and slow fall.
All want to move faster to be faster than most monsters (boots of speed, striding and springing, and babarian speed may not be enough)? Monk already got extra movement.
All want to heal in mid-levels and get spare potions of healing? Monk already has wholeness of body.
etc.

And: they have only few equipment conflicts. Far better than the fist amulet is a ki weapon, a potion of magic fang (or the pc druid's help) or the gauntlets already mentioned. so the amulet of WIS is just fine.



The monk does not have Divine Power. He only has Haste for 10 rounds a day (Boots of Speed), or if the spellcaster is feeling friendly; melee characters have Speed weapons. 8 low-damage attacks sound impressive, but they are at low attack bonuses as well, and the responding full attack (as the monk is in melee whenever he is flurrying) will by and large be very painful.


But of course he has Divine Power, if he takes UMD from mid-level. And gets a ring of spell storing (otherwise UMD needs to be too high). And/or if there is a cleric in his group. Why should he not have it? Only if the DM will not allow this treasure (scroll or ring) to be found, bought, exchanged in his game. But that could apply to all treasure.
And if he has divine power, the attack bonuses at high levels are there on par with the full BAB classes. He will likely do less damage, but with most attacks he could use poison tactics or whatever (ah, that would likely again be "situational").



I am sorry, but no. This is precisely what I meant about blowing tiny details out of proportion and doing your best to interpret things avantageously rather than literally.

On the contrary, you try to say that every single special ability the monk has will be too rare in the campaign to matter (where obviously damage-dealing with sneaks and fighter/barbarian power attacks seem to be the standard for non-caster classes). And strangely, this even extends to defensive qualities, where the monk is simply the best of all non-caster classes (and the best until-mid-level of them all).
And I say yes: those abilities matter. This is likely something we cannot prove on these boards for group play, since it has too many facets and aspects.
Maybe let a monk fight a spelluser at 12th level one-on-one. The spelluser likely loses. If a monk fights a fighter or barbarian in one-on-one, likely the monk loses at that level. Which only helps to illustrate the niche of the monk.



What does your monk look like, at level three? Six? Nine? Twelve? Fifteen? Eighteen? I have seen many things bandied about, but they have been thoroughly situational (a surprise round right after activating Divine Power from a ring), contradictory (which amulet are you wearing? What do you purchase for your cloak slot?), or simply erroneous or misguided

I will attempt to design such a monk myself tomorrow, to show you the error in some of the things you have said. For now, I sleep.

OK, I arleady saw some 3rd and 11/12th level builds tossed around here, which do not look that unrealistic. I'll try to maybe come up with something of my own lateron.

- Giacomo

[Fourth Tempter]

Talia, the Vow of Poverty gives fixed, by-and-large unoptimal benefits. For example--Armor +10, Natural Armor +3, Deflection +3? Without it, you could have Armor +8, Natural Armor +5, Deflection +5, which is actually more.
A +8 attribute bonus? Yes--but you are missing out on Tomes and Manuals. A level 20 character tends to wind up with anywhere from +9 to +11 to his primary attribute.

The Mantle of Faith grants DR 5/evil, but is too expensive to be a wise investment.

Permanent true seeing is not necessary--a Gem of Seeing grants you all the true seeing you will need in a day. However, it is much cheaper to purchase a bundle of scrolls for the occasions when they will be useful.

An ioun stone can grant 1 point of regeneration per hour, as per the Ring, for 20,000 gp (I am guessing there was a pricing mistake on ONE of the two; likely the Ring); in any case, between-combat healing is dealt with via Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

Without the Vow, 25,000 gp nets you a +5 resistance bonus to saving throws rather than a +3.

18,000 gp purchases an ioun stone that sustains you without air. 4,000 gets another one that sustains you without food or water--no real need for the Ring of Sustenance.

Exalted feats cannot be purchased, but the other Vows are a poor choice despite the abilities they grant: suddenly, your character either defines the tone of the campaign or loses all of his powers. Imposing penalties on your allies for doing their thing is not a good ability.

Energy Resistance is not particularily relevant--a Mass Energy Resistance spell grants the whole party resistance to whatever kind of energy is relevant at the moment. In addition, monks have very high Reflex saves and Improved Evasion, meaning energy resistance will only very rarely be relevant.

Greater Magic Weapon covers one's fists.


To sum up, adding up the equivalent-item values of the Vow of Poverty abilities does not make for a particularily good judge of its power. The Vow prevents you from focusing on whatever you wish, item-wise, it prevents you from spending your wealth intelligently, and it prevents you from purchasing otherwise-vital items such as attribute-boosting Tomes, a Soulfire defensive item, Freedom of Movement, and the like.

In addition, there is timing--for example, a vow of Poverty character does not have a +4 attribute bonus until level 11, a +2 until level 7, and a +6 until level 15.

On top of that, you lose the ability to carry useful per-day or situational items.


I will address the other posts tomorrow (or rather, later today) as the sun just arose.

[Talya]

Talia, the Vow of Poverty gives fixed, by-and-large unoptimal benefits. For example--Armor +10, Natural Armor +3, Deflection +3? Without it, you could have Armor +8, Natural Armor +5, Deflection +5, which is actually more.

And yet most people recommending monk gear skimp on rings of protection and amulets of natural armor (and you couldn't wear the amulet, btw, you'd be wearing an amulet of mighty fists instead), only taking +3, to save money for elsewhere.


A +8 attribute bonus? Yes--but you are missing out on Tomes and Manuals. A level 20 character tends to wind up with anywhere from +9 to +11 to his primary attribute.

No, you aren't. It's a temporary, expendable item, like a potion. A party member could give you one to read without you breaking your vow. A wizard could still wish your abilities higher.


Exalted feats cannot be purchased, but the other Vows are a poor choice despite the abilities they grant: suddenly, your character either defines the tone of the campaign or loses all of his powers. Imposing penalties on your allies for doing their thing is not a good ability.

Yes, I agree. I am not fond of the Vows of Nonviolence/Peace, although in the right setting/style of campaign they can be devastatingly effective. I'd much prefer touch of golden ice, however, which is really mutually exclusive to those two. Even with the low fortitude save of DC14, the sheer number of attacks a monk will hit with means that eventually your target will roll a natural 1. (You could also choose to make touch attacks to deliver it. A monk vs. an ancient wyrm is going to win that way... toe to toe with a monk with this feat: two DC14 fort saves on each touch hit, one for 1d6 dex damage, second for 2d6 dex damage. 5 hits per turn...that's 10 chances of a natural 1 every turn, average dex damage of just over 5 points per failure. Dragon has 10 dexterity.)


Freedom of Movement

Damnit! I knew I'd missed something! Vow of poverty gives permanent freedom of movement at fourteenth level! Editing previous post.

[Illiterate Scribe]

No, you aren't. It's a temporary, expendable item, like a potion. A party member could give you one to read without you breaking your vow. A wizard could still wish your abilities higher.


You lose your VoP if you use a magic item - ergo, reading a tome, even if someone else's, would break it. Oh, and bar supernatural spell dweomerkeepers, I don't see many wizards willing to lose 25,000 XP per stat for a +5 bonus.

[Talya]

You lose your VoP if you use a magic item - ergo, reading a tome, even if someone else's, would break it. Oh, and bar supernatural spell dweomerkeepers, I don't see many wizards willing to lose 25,000 XP per stat for a +5 bonus.


Not true.

Let me quote from the book of exalted deeds:


You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf--you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you.

While it wouldn't break your vow to read a tome or manual given to you by a friend, note that you wouldn't even need to touch the thing, if you were really worried. A tome or manual is like a potion, not a scroll, except that it takes 48 hours of reading over a maximum of 6 days to complete. You could NOT carry it on your person in between readings, it would have to be done on your downtime and likely with help from its owner.

But if you're playing in an exalted campaign, that's the type of thing party members would be doing anyway.

[lord_khaine]

no sane monk should use a Amulet of mighty fist, since for a singel feat he can use a gauntlet instead, who cost 1/3 of the amulets price.

anyway i dont think we should focus that much on what happens at lv 20, instead i think the middel lvs are the interesting ones, its at least my experience that most campaigns run in the 6-14 lv range.

as for the tome question, it might go against the spirit of the rules, but after what i can see by raw you could use it that way.
not that i can see Why anyone would use their tome on you?

[Talya]

Why anyone would use their tome on you?

Normally they might not, although if you're playing in an exalted campaign, your whole party is likely to be playing highly generous altruistic do-gooders, as are many of your NPC contacts. It's the nature of the book. You're also likely to all be very close friends/comrades in arms.

Edit: I need to admit that as a DM, I'd be really, really picky about how this was done. Not about "touching the book", as I mentioned a paranoid person might be, but about the spirit of it. A Vow of poverty character who ever suggested this to a party member would be in trouble. The initiative for using such an item would need to be entirely on the part of the donating character. The party member would also need to make clear that if the monk did not use it, he would do so himself, ensuring it was not going to be used for charity. Likewise, I'd be really irritated with a player who suggested to his rich compatriots to pay for a town wizard to cast wish to achieve this a few times...spending other people's money is the same as spending your own. It's certainly not easy for a Vow of Poverty monk to attain an inherent bonus to their stats, however it is POSSIBLE.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Doesn't your quote conflict with this one, from the 'voluntary poverty' section?

'If you intentionally use a magic item or claim excess possessions, you lose the benefit of this Feat. '

Probably just that the BoED was never errataed.

[Talya]

Doesn't your quote conflict with this one, from the 'voluntary poverty' section?

'If you intentionally use a magic item or claim excess possessions, you lose the benefit of this Feat. '

Probably just that the BoED was never errataed.

Absolutely, I agree they do appear to be in conflict. You don't even need to quote that section on voluntary poverty, you can look at the quote I provided, which seems self-conflicting:

"You may not use any magic item of any sort..." and then immediately afterward, "...you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you."

It's obvious the writer has some odd ideas of what comprises "using a magic item." I don't see any material or moral difference between drinking a potion given to you by a friend (explicitly allowed), or casting a spell from a scroll (explicitly disallowed.) For that matter, VoP wizards, while not casting spells from scrolls, carry spellbooks, and materials to write in them, and definitely copy spells from scrolls all the time with no ill effects. You can also amass spell components...some of which are expensive. (Casting Forcecage from a VoP wizard seems ridiculous.)

[Talya]

Permanent true seeing is not necessary--a Gem of Seeing grants you all the true seeing you will need in a day. However, it is much cheaper to purchase a bundle of scrolls for the occasions when they will be useful.



BTW, I need to disagree with this comment I didn't touch on earlier.

Trueseeing is most useful if it's permanent. It utterly defeats a number of spellcaster strategies that could be used against you: Illusion spells of all kinds, and other spells as well such as blink, displacement, etc. These are things you might not immediately notice and therefore not think to activate trueseeing.

[Sir Giacomo]

In any case, I am constructing a party, which is proving to be relatively time-consuming....

OK, I'll construct a 3rd level monk who will make a valuable contribution to that party (possibly even better than one of them)
Of course, your Shadowhand Li is "deliberately trained wrong as a joke" (courtesy the great Kung Pow movie).
"I have chosen dodge and mobility even though only at highest levels I could make use of spring attack to warrant burning 3 feats, making me the victor".
And a ring of protection at that level instead of getting a 50gp mage armour potion (several of those even, or just ask the party wizard to get brew potion instead of craft wondrous item, since at 3rd level that is way more useful)
Sheesh...:smallsmile:

Now let's have a look at the rest of your party (which you, btw, have done very nicely and can serve as great example for playes for the iconic 3rd level party!):


Sharra, Halfling Rogue 3:
STR 8, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 10
1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 3: Weapon Finesse
Equipment: +1 Chain Shirt, two Masterwork Shortswords, MW Thieves' Tools, a healing potion or two, and adventuring miscellania such as rope, sunrods, and the like, a shortbow.
Skills: Bluff 6, Hide 14, Move Silently 10, Search 8, Disable Device 12, Open Lock 12, Tumble 10, Use Magic Device 6.
AB: +8, +6/+6 when two-weapon fighting, +8/+8 when fighting with two weapons and flanking. She has 2d6 sneak attack, meaning she does 1d4+2d6-1 damage a hit when flanking (read, most of the time).
Saves: F+3/R+7/W+1
AC: 20 (small size, +1 AB and AC)
HP: 19
When Blessed, +1 AB as usual.

Dwarven Fighter, the Dwarven Fighter 3 whose player never did write something down under the "name" section of his sheet and who really ought to've played a barbarian:
STR 17, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 6
Skills: Intimidate 4, Drinking Yes.
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Equipment: Fullplate, MW Dwarven Waraxe, Heavy Steel Shield, a couple of healing potions, a couple of potions of Enlarge Person, a +3 STR composite longbow.
AB: +7, hitting for 2d6+3.
Saves: F+6/R+2/W+3, +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities.
AC: 21
HP: 30

When under the influence of Enlarge Person, Bless, and Bull's Strength (as he is whenever the party has time to prepare), Gorbash puts away his shield and goes on the offensive: STR 23 (+6), DEX 10, AB +10, damage 3d6 (Large dwarven waraxe)+9 (held in two hands), with his AC falling to 17. Dwarven Fighter lives for these moments.

Gosmash, human Cleric 3 of the cause of Going Places and Smashing Things, with the War and Strength domains:
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10
Skills: Concentration 8, Diplomacy 6
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon Focus (Greatsword) [War domain], Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative.
Equipment: MW Heavy Mace, heavy shield, Fullplate, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, assorted minor things.
AB: +6, for 2d6+3
Saves: F+5/R+2/W+6, +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities.
AC: 21
HP: 23
Spell DC: 13+level
Spell Slots: Orisons - 4, L1 - 3+D, L2 - 2+D.
Typical Spells Readied: some orisons, 2x Bless, 1x Shield of Faith, 1x Enlarge Person, 2x Bull's Strength, 1x Shatter

Lolhax the Great, Gnome Wizard 3, tiny genius whose arcane wrath his enemies will one day rue. His familiar is a very cute white rat (+2 to Fortitude saving throws).
STR 6, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 18 (20), WIS 12, CHA 8
Skills: Concentration 9, Tumble 4.5, Knowledge(Arcana) 10, Spellcraft 10, Hide 10.5 (size), Knowledge(The Planes) 5, other knowledges 1.
Feats: Scribe Scroll (bonus), Extend Spell, Craft Wondrous Item
Equipment: Lolhax has saved up and crafted himself a Headband of Intellect +2. Beyond that, he has a number of scrolls, and a number of spells scribed into his spellbook. He also has a light cross bow--just in case. He does not even bother having a quarterstaff.
AB: the relevant one is ranged touch attacks, on which he has +4 due to his dexterity and size.
Saves: F+6/R+3/W+4
AC: 13, 17 with Mage Armor, 21 with Mage Armor and Shield.
HP: 18
Spell DC: 15+spell level, 16+spell level for illusions.
Spell Slots: 4 cantrips, 4 first level, 2 second level.
Typical spells readied: cantrips, 1x Mage Armor, 2x Color Spray, 1x Grease, 1x Extended Mage Armor, 1x Bull's Strength.
He carries several scrolls of Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, and the like. He casts Shield while the party prepares for combat. He uses Color Spray (Will DC 17) to disable powerful opponents, and Ray of Enfeeblement scrolls to make them weaker if that fails.


Possibly an archer monk may a good idea...since there is no elf yet. Let us assume first the monk is a 5th party member and the question is whether he can contribute. And then, if he could replace any of the above...

32-point buy.
Li-Athan, Elf monk 3rd level
STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 16, CHR 8

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Monk feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (DC 14, 3/day), Deflect Arrows
Move: 40ft
Initiative: +3
Hitpoints: 20 (max first, avg, +3 CON)
Saves: Fort +5, Refl +7, Will +7 (+11 vs enchantment/mind-affecting)
AC: 20 (DEX, WIS, Mage Armour +4), touch: 20, flat-footed: 17; can be augmented by +3 (to 23) when fighting defensively.
Attacks: +6 (1d8+2, masterwork comp. longbow), or +5/+5. +1 if in point blank range. +4 melee unarmed strike/grapple (damage 1d6+2) (+2/+2 if flurry).
Skills (30 points): spot +11 (6 ranks, +2 elf, WIS), listen +11 (6 ranks, +2 elf, WIS), tumble +10 (5 ranks, +2 jump synergy, DEX), jump +13 (5 ranks, +2 tumble synergy, +4 move), sense motive +9 (6 ranks, +3 WIS), spellcraft +2 (2 ranks cross-class), healing +5 (no ranks, WIS, +2 from healing kit), move silently and hide +3 (DEX), Ride +3 (DEX), climb +4 (STR, climbing kit)
Equipment (2,700): 2 Masterwork Composite Longbows for STR 14 (800 gp), 100 arrows (5gp), healing and climber kit (130gp), 6 potions of Mage Armour, 2 Shield of Faith, 2 Magic Weapon in total (500gp), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000gp)

Let us see how this monk could contribute.
- He could be an archer and at the same time threaten an opponent with his unarmed strike so that the rogue can sneak. At the same time he IS a better archer than the above fighter since he has more attacks possibly, although a fighter archer would also be able to do that (note that the deflect arrows feat is quite nice for an archer vs enemy fire, especially with his high AC- he'll get hit rarely).
- He has way the best spot and listen, so the party will be surprised very rarely.
- Due to his high WIS, he can serve as a backup healer when the cleric is somehow incapacitated (say, the cleric is in negative hit points).
- his stunning fist maneuvers can take out an enemy arcane spellcaster or rogue, while being able to provide the rogue with more sneaks (even ranged).
- he is the best in movement (move speed and tumble) so can best reach those in need of all characters.

So the monk could make a great 5th party member

Could he replace one of the above? Difficult to say, since it is very situation-specific.
On a statistic-per-statistic basis, the monk has the following ranks (note that the classes are quite close together still):
Feats: 1st. He has the most feats, even surpassing the fighter at these low levels.
Move: 1st (double the movement rate of the full plate fighter and cleric!!)
Initiative: 3rd (mid-field)
Hitpoints: 3rd (mid-field)
Saves: 1st (what a surprise :smallsmile: )
AC*: 3rd
Attacks: difficult call. Aside the rogue, the monk is the only one with 2 attacks potentially (both at range and melee), but the attack bonus is only in mid-field, as is the damage output. So I'd say: 3rd
Skills: 2nd, behind the rogue.

Then, of course, there is spell use, which only the cleric and the wizard can do (although still rather limited, for instance the wizard can only do very vew ranged attacks with his spells, while the monk can fire his arrows quite nicely).

Overall, the monk could replace the fighter in this group, I'd say, since the monk can slowly become the tank, while the cleric can hold the frontline with him. The monk is also more flexible, although it is really a close call -the fighter could also be made more flexible. The skills may win it for the monk at these levels...hmmm....even the wizard may not be sacrosanct (the wizard gets really powerful only at higher levels, here he may be much less useful than the monk; say if the campaign only goes from levels 1-6).

It's up for taste, I think, but it should now stand proven (with my builds of 3rd and 20th level) that the monk will nicely contribute in many situations; so its ultimately not a power-dependent, but flavour-dependent decision.

- Giacomo

PS*: note that the monk can, with cheap 50 gp potions mage armour and shield of faith, raise his AC to 25, touch AC to 21 (helps immensely vs the ray of enfeeblement opponent wizards may also have! And vs grapples! So, no escape artist needed) while fighting defensively, moving 40ft (20ft when tumbling to avoid AoO) and shooting one arrow per round, providing flanking all the time for the rogue and the cleric. AC 25 at 3rd level is quite hard to hit for many opponents. Enemy arrows he could deflect, and his saves vs the toughest low-level opponent spells (hold person, charm person, hypnotism, sleep) are awesome.

[brian c]

snip

An ioun stone can grant 1 point of regeneration per hour, as per the Ring, for 20,000 gp (I am guessing there was a pricing mistake on ONE of the two; likely the Ring); in any case, between-combat healing is dealt with via Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

snip

18,000 gp purchases an ioun stone that sustains you without air. 4,000 gets another one that sustains you without food or water--no real need for the Ring of Sustenance.


I don't see rules for this anywhere, but can you use more than one Ioun stone simultaneously? If not, then your plan is shot.

Also, interestingly enough, one does not use an Ioun stone. Hence, a Vow of Poverty character could have an Ioun stone floating around their head, as long as it was found and not purchased. Certainly it's up to the DM, as is everything else in D&D, but the way I see it the RAW do allow that, and as a DM I would allow that.

[Talya]

Also, interestingly enough, one does not use an Ioun stone. Hence, a Vow of Poverty character could have an Ioun stone floating around their head, as long as it was found and not purchased. Certainly it's up to the DM, as is everything else in D&D, but the way I see it the RAW do allow that, and as a DM I would allow that.

As much as I love the VoP, I'd seriously **** over a VoP character who tried to rationalize that. They are not to keep treasure for personal use, they sell it and donate the proceeds to charity.

[lord_khaine]

hmm since we are starting to discuss VoP and the use of ion stones, does this means that people agree on that the monk can hold his own in a party, if he is build right?

[Arbitrarity]

2 minor things for now:

1: not proficient with the bow.
2: bows cost 1200 gp total (100 base, 200 for str mod, 300 for MW, x2)

And ring of regen is 1 point of damage per level per hour, the ioun stone is one point of damage per hour. Also, the stone doesn't regen limbs.


VOP benifits

1st lvl +4 Exalted Bonus to AC...................................... ..............(40000gp value)
2nd lvl Exalted Feat ........................................ .................(value ?)
3rd lvl +5 Exalted AC/ constant Endure Elements..................(64500gp)
4th lvl +1 enhancement to all attacks/Feat........................(2000gp+?)
5th lvl No need to Eat or Drink(similar to ring of sustenance...............(2500gp)
6th lvl +6 Exalted AC/ +1 Deflection AC/feat .......................(92000gp)
7th lvl +1 resistance to all saves/ +2 Enhancement (1 Ability)............(5000gp)
8th lvl +1 natural Armor/ mind shielding(sim to ring)/feat........(10000gp)
9th lvl +7 Exalted AC...................................... ........................(122500gp)
10th lvl +2 enhancement to all attacks/ DR 5/feat..................(8000gp)
11th lvl +4/+2 Enhancement(2 Abilities).............................. .........(20000gp)
12th lvl +8 Exalted AC/ +2 Deflection AC/ No need to Breath/feat(168000gp)
13th lvl +2 Resistance all Saves/ Energy Resistance 5 (All Elements).....(34000gp)
14th lvl +3 Enhancement to all attacks/Freedom of movement constant/feat..(74000gp)
15th lvl +9 Exalted AC/+6/+4/+2 Enhancement(3 Abilities)/ DR 5/EVIL ...(258500gp)
16th lvl +2 Natural Armor/feat.................................... ........(8000gp)
17th lvl +4 Enhancement to all attacks/+3 Resistance all saves/ Regeneration.(41000gp)
18th lvl +10 Exalted AC/ +3 Deflection/ True Seeing constant effect/feat....(358000gp)
19th lvl +8/+6/+4/+2 Enhancement (4 Abilities)/DR 10/EVIL............(120000gp)
20th lvl +5 Enhancement to all attacks/ Energy Resistance 15 (All elements)...(155000gp)



so now for a cumulative level-by-level total GP value for a VOP:

1st lvl 40000
2nd lvl 40000 + 1 exalted feat
3rd lvl 64500 + 1 exalted feat
4th lvl 66500 + 2 exalted feats
5th lvl 69000 + 2 exalted feats
6th lvl 98500 + 3 exalted feats
7th lvl 101500 + 3 exalted feats
8th lvl 111500 + 4 exalted feats
9th lvl 142000 + 4 exalted feats
10th lvl 148000 + DR 5/magic + 5 exalted feats
11th lvl 168000 + DR 5/magic + 5 exalted feats
12th lvl 213500 + no breath + DR 5/magic + 6 exalted feats
13th lvl 246500 + no breath + DR 5/magic + 6 exalted feats
14th lvl 312500 + no breath + DR 5/magic + 7 exalted feats
15th lvl 391000 + no breath + DR 5/Evil + 7 exalted feats
16th lvl 397000 + no breath + DR 5/Evil + 8 exalted feats
17th lvl 416000 + Regeneration + no breath + DR 5/Evil + 8 exalted feats
18th lvl 563500 + Regeneration + no breath + DR 5/Evil + 9 exalted feats
19th lvl 627500 + Regeneration + no breath + DR 10/Evil + 9 exalted feats
20th lvl 730500 + Regeneration + no breath + DR 10/Evil + 10 exalted feats


The issue of course, is a lack of selection in magic items, which seems to be made up for on this board, by assuming incredible generosity on the part of your allies. Which isn't probable, unless you, and your VoP are definitive of the entire campaign, meaning mostly unusable.

"So... you take 1/4 of the treasure, and GIVE IT AWAY, and you want my tome of insight +5, for an extra 130000 gp down the drain?"
"Yep"
"Well... let me think about that... no"


EDIT: No. Monk's aren't usable in a party :smallyuk:
We're refuting VoP being useful.

Also, I disagree with the pricing on the quote. He seems to have variably priced this exalted AC...

[Ikkitosen]

I don't see rules for this anywhere, but can you use more than one Ioun stone simultaneously? If not, then your plan is shot.

Ioun stones are unslotted; you can use an many as you like.

[Talya]

2 minor things for now:

1: not proficient with the bow.
2: bows cost 1200 gp total (100 base, 200 for str mod, 300 for MW, x2)

He made an elf monk. He is absolutely proficient with the bow.


The issue of course, is a lack of selection in magic items, which seems to be made up for on this board, by assuming incredible generosity on the part of your allies. Which isn't probable, unless you, and your VoP are definitive of the entire campaign, meaning mostly unusable.

If the book of exalted deeds is being used for the party at all, it IS definitive of the entire campaign. You don't use the book in small quantities, you either go all out exalted, or not at all. VoP would simply not work in many campaigns, regardless of what it gave, because the style of it would not fit with the gameplay involved. If one character has a VoP, chances are you're all of very similar alignment and all have made use of Exalted to some degree.

Also, I disagree with the pricing on the quote. He seems to have variably priced this exalted AC...


He has to rather guess at the price, because +10 doesn't exist. It's somewhere in between +8 (64,000gp) and +11 (epic 1,210,000gp).

[Talya]

hmm since we are starting to discuss VoP and the use of ion stones, does this means that people agree on that the monk can hold his own in a party, if he is build right?

No.

Vow of Poverty helps, but the monk needs some tweaking. It's not quite so fundamentally broken as some would have you believe, but it needs help.

Main things it needs:

Improved BAB progression, either full BAB + flurry (+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5) or, (and my preferred change) revert to the 3rd edition monk iterative attack progression (+15/+15/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3).

Lessen M.A.D.. Make the monk "AC Bonus" from wisdom also apply to attack and damage, if higher than strength. Include the extra bonus (+0 - +4) that a monk gets to AC in this as well.

Enchantable body. A monk needs to be able to get magic tatoos or some similar ability that adds an enhancement bonus to their unarmed strikes. Alternately, make it non-slotted equipment. I'm good with fist-wraps and stuff. (NOT gauntlets, which require a proficiency feat and convert your damage to lethal, and look silly on a monk anyway.) These should NOT take up the equipment slot gloves would be in, any more than a magic sword does for a fighter.

Flurry while moving. Flurry should be usable to modify both full attacks (which it is now) and standard action attacks (which it is not.) A moving monk should be able to hit for +15/+15/+15, without their iterative attacks.

Those right there fix the monk class entirely.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The 3rd edition iterative progression, while good, made the monk basically teh ultimate dipping class, and little else. It would need some thought for implementation.

[AtomicKitKat]

Magical Fist-powering wraps should take either the glove or bracer slots(Looking at martial artists, they either wrap the wrists, or most of the fist).

[Corolinth]

A +8 attribute bonus? Yes--but you are missing out on Tomes and Manuals.
(10:35:38 AM) Talya: they made a valid point about the stats bonuses being made up for by inherent bonuses (tomes and stuff.) VoP characters could, in very specific circumstances, use them, but it'd be rare as hell, and the character would never ever be able to try and arrange for those circumstances without losing his vow, so is at the mercy of his party/DM.

(10:36:04 AM) corolinth: Oh, yeah, right. Tomes.
(10:36:08 AM) corolinth: Because you can just buy tomes.
(10:36:10 AM) corolinth: Right
(10:36:13 AM) corolinth: Tomes and stuff.
(10:36:14 AM) corolinth: Sure.
(10:36:20 AM) corolinth: Yes those can be made up for.
(10:36:22 AM) corolinth: Of course they can.
(10:36:25 AM) corolinth: You can just buy tomes.
(10:36:26 AM) corolinth: Right.
(10:36:30 AM) corolinth: How silly of you to forget.
(10:36:33 AM) corolinth: Certainly.
(10:36:37 AM) corolinth: Just run out and buy tomes.
(10:36:41 AM) corolinth: Yes, you can just do that.

[Arbitrarity]

Doh. Missed the elfishness :smallyuk:

[Indon]

The issue of course, is a lack of selection in magic items, which seems to be made up for on this board, by assuming incredible generosity on the part of your allies. Which isn't probable, unless you, and your VoP are definitive of the entire campaign, meaning mostly unusable.

"So... you take 1/4 of the treasure, and GIVE IT AWAY, and you want my tome of insight +5, for an extra 130000 gp down the drain?"
"Yep"
"Well... let me think about that... no"


EDIT: No. Monk's aren't usable in a party :smallyuk:
We're refuting VoP being useful.

Also, I disagree with the pricing on the quote. He seems to have variably priced this exalted AC...

Is part of the VoP that the Monk has to give away their share, like by tithing or something? Because unless the DM adjusts the party's WBL to a party of 1 less member (a viable solution, though some may complain that the party is not as a whole being rewarded as much as it should, and you'd need to tweak standard treasure tables if you use them), it seems like a VoP monk ends up giving the party more wealth to spread around... if they don't give it away, anyway.

And Wishes work better than tomes for innate enhancement bonuses to stats, anyway, in my opinion.

[Talya]

it seems like a VoP monk ends up giving the party more wealth to spread around... if they don't give it away, anyway.

Actually, the VoP character must demand their share of the party treasure, and then donate it to charity.

[Indon]

Actually, the VoP character must demand their share of the party treasure, and then donate it to charity.

Ah, so simply no impact on WBL. Why would they get any less charity than another party member, then?

[lord_khaine]

VoP does not have any impact on group WBL, but it has a advantage of sorts, since the monk can take those odd things that noone else want as his share, and then donate it.

[Sir Giacomo]

It's difficult for me to comment on the VoP thing, since I do not have the exalted deeds book. Once in a campaign I Dmed I had a monk player at 10th level who took it. and I had a look at the stuff and was abhorred- there seemed so much, in particular the number of feats gained for only two feats which made me reduce some of the benefits.

But my knowledge of the 3.5 rules at that time was more limited, plus also the power that magic items have and can convey.

Overall, though, from what Talya says I think she is right, in particular in a campaign where treasure is found in a random way and means to buy/exchange it are rare.

@Arbitrarity: yep, the bows are too expensive. OK, one normal, one STR 14 masterwork should do the trick. The spare is only there vs sunders.

- Giacomo

EDIT: the great thing about a monk at low levels is that he is quite front-loaded with his abilities and stuff. So instead of an elf, I could easily have done a half-orc monk with power attack, STR 18, a staff, with improved grapple and enlarge potion, who is on par with the above iconic party fighter, still has better saves, better move, similar AC, better skill boni (remember that the full plate guys have abysmal penalties to their movement skills) and who could take improved initiative as a 2nd feat.

- Giacomo

[Diamondeye]

Fourth Tempter, I'm a little confused as to why your dwarf fighter is able to use a heavy shield with a greatsword or a composite longbow. Perhaps you can clear this up?

I'm looking at your description of the 11th level dwarf fighter and I can so no means by which he could use either of those weapons with a heavy shield.

[Bassetking]

VoP does not have any impact on group WBL, but it has a advantage of sorts, since the monk can take those odd things that noone else want as his share, and then donate it.

It also has a decided downside, as it effectively "Opens" the closed system of party WBL.

While each member of the party still recieves the same quantity of total treasure, the amount of total party "Owned" treasure is less the monk's share.

If a standard party gains treasure from an encounter, 5/5 of the treasure is re-invested into the party in some form; be it weapons, armor, or consumeables.

With the VoP monk participating, the party only retains 4/5 of the wealth-per-encounter.

So, while the party has recieved a commiserate quantity of cash, they actually lack in wealth-parity when compared to a group that does not feature a VoP character.

Yes, the bonuses of VoP are designed to offset this, and built such that the character laboring under them is designed to function AS IF they possessed equivalent gear...

However, the simple fact remains that an adventuring party with a VoP character will only retain 4/5 of the total party treasure.

[Indon]

Yes, the bonuses of VoP are designed to offset this, and built such that the character laboring under them is designed to function AS IF they possessed equivalent gear...

However, the simple fact remains that an adventuring party with a VoP character will only retain 4/5 of the total party treasure.

But, due to the bonuses, this doesn't actually matter, except in extreme situations where, say, the party might have to liquidate all availible assets to buy something, or the like.

[lord_khaine]

no for the case is, of the loot the party recive, a certain % cant be used by anyone in the party, , and will be sold for ½ the market value to someone.

but if you have a VoP char in your party, then he can claim those things that would othervise be sold for ½ price, at the full market price to "power" his ability.

so the party would have the most usefull 4/5 of the loot they recive, but operate at 5/5 loot efficiency as long as there are a little corporation in the party, like throwing a fly spell when nececary.

[Indon]

no for the case is, of the loot the party recive, a certain % cant be used by anyone in the party, , and will be sold for ½ the market value to someone.

but if you have a VoP char in your party, then he can claim those things that would othervise be sold for ½ price, at the full market price to "power" his ability.

so the party would have the most usefull 4/5 of the loot they recive, but operate at 5/5 loot efficiency as long as there are a little corporation in the party, like throwing a fly spell when nececary.

Oh, I get it.

So basically, you get a bigger cash share of the treasure than normal because, rather than getting extra cash off of poor magical items, poor magical items are converted directly into VoP-fueling fodder, without needing to take any of the actual, full-value money.

Clever. Smells faintly of cheese, too, but the impact is minor enough that I really wouldn't care as a DM.

[Dartonus]

It's not weak. It essentially gets a free, lawful and adamant weapon that increases in strength as it levels up and can't lose it. In addition, It can eventually fall any distance when next to a wall and move VERY fast, get a wisdom and natural bonus to their unarmored AC, and is very effective against disease carrying creatures due to their early immunity. Their unarmed attacks will eventually deal 2d10, more than any weapon could usually hope to do. And if they take improved natural attack (Fist), It only gets deadlier. They are meant for solitary, scouting combat, and that is why they focus on helping themselves. A party with a monk in it could send the monk out to see what's farther in the dungeon and expect the monk to outrun any threats (Which it probably could). in addition, they get Spell Resistance, a thing no other class gets naturally. They get impressive DR at level 20, more than even the Barbarian. In addition, outsiders do not die of old age, so a level 20 monk can bide her time for years, and does not need to worry about dying of old age. In addition, a monk can become ethereal. In etherealness, they can ignore armor and shields, allowing them to lay the pain on an enemy who is wearing heavy armor. They can also become valuable information gatherers due to tongue of the sun and moon. A party with a monk, fighter, rogue, and wizard would be a powerful party indeed.

[Talya]

In addition, outsiders do not die of old age

That's only true if specifically stated. Aasimar and tieflings have standard human lifespans, and I believe most Fey'ri have standard elven lifespans.

Monks grow old. They just don't seem to show it until they finally keel over dead. (Timeless Body (Ex))

[Fax Celestis]

That's only true if specifically stated. Aasimar and tieflings have standard human lifespans, and I believe most Fey'ri have standard elven lifespans.

Monks grow old. They just don't seem to show it until they finally keel over dead. (Timeless Body (Ex))

Man, how much would it suck if Timeless Body was (Su)?

[Talya]

Man, how much would it suck if Timeless Body was (Su)?

Awesome random observation.

Wizard: "We seem to be in some sort of antimagic dead zone..."
Monk: *collapses* "What was that, sonny? I can't quite hear ya..."

[Quietus]

Also, Dartonus, your observation of their Etherealness is mildly flawed - how, precisely, are you making use of the fact that their armor and such doesn't matter, when you aren't on the material plane?

That said, the Ethereal ability, even a minor one like that, can do a LOT for a person's mobility.

[Aquillion]

In addition, falling and disease can be solved easily by extremely cheap and low-level spells or items, not that falling damage is a huge threat at high levels anyway. Paladins (while also immune to disease) are basically able to protect the entire party from disease with their absurd number of free removes, and it's still considered a near-worthless ability. Ditto for Tongue of the Sun and Moon -- it mimics a low-level spell effect, and you get it so late that by that time that low-level spell effect will be one casters won't mind throwing around when needed.

That "free, lawful and adamant weapon" is a serious problem. What do you do against creatures with damage resistance other than lawful or adamant? What if their damage resistance is around 20? That's not so rare later on, you know.

2d10 is not, by any standard, "more than any weapon could usually hope to do." Weapons get these things called enchantments later on. The enchantments and special effects on a WBL-approprate high-level weapon will be much better than the piddling 2d10 of a monk's fists. Even without enchantments, a fighter is usually going to have power attack and massively more strength than a monk, while other classes have other ways of adding damage (sneak attack, etc); with these included, even a poor magical weapon or a non-magical weapon can exceed the monk's 2d10.

Both their spell resistance and their DR are too low to be really important--they look nifty on paper, but won't help much against the threats you actually need them to help against.

Other classes fufill the scout role better. Rangers can track and have more skill points. Rogues have massively more skill points and better skills, and are better at detecting traps, and can avoid traps they set off by mistake, and have disguise as a class skill, and have the skill points to increase bluff et all in case a humanoid guard spots them while scouting, and.... A monk, who will generally have low int and only 4 skill points per level, is going to be hard-pressed to max all of hide, sneak, spot, and move silently (recall they'll probably also need Tumble and maybe Jump and Climb, and some people here have even suggested increasing UMD cross-class... which is stupid, but whatever.)

As an aside, monks are not, despite what some people have said, particularly good archers in the long run due to their low BAB and limited feats. They have no particular abilities to support archery as a path, either.

[PirateMonk]

Their unarmed attacks will eventually deal 2d10, more than any weapon could usually hope to do.

...Unless the weapon is a greataxe in the hands of a raging barbarian, even a level one human. +6 strength modifier if you start with 18 strength. So the average is 12.5 vs. 11, the maximum is 18 vs. 20, and the minimum is 7 vs. 2...

Granted, barbarians have limited Rage usages, but at the level Monks are dealing 2d10, the fighter will have a magic weapon, Greater Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, and high Strength, or be archery-focused and have as many attacks as a flurrying monk. And this is a lowly fighter.


A party with a monk, fighter, rogue, and wizard would be a powerful party indeed.

...If they invest heavily in healing items, sure.

(Partially ninja'd)

[Talya]

...Unless the weapon is a greataxe in the hands of a raging barbarian, even a level one human. +6 strength modifier if you start with 18 strength. So the average is 12.5 vs. 11, the maximum is 18 vs. 20, and the minimum is 7 vs. 2...




Three words:

Improved Natural Attack.

4d8 unarmed strike is nice. You're also attacking more often with it. (Hitting more often? That's up for debate.)

[PirateMonk]

Three words:

Improved Natural Attack.

4d8 unarmed strike is nice. You're also attacking more often with it. (Hitting more often? That's up for debate.)

...Congratulations. At Level 20, you're dealing 5.5 more average damage than a level one raging Barbarian. Though you do get more attacks.

[Dryad]

And what about Greater Magic Fang? Conjunction with the permanancy spell? (Ofcourse, if the DM allows for this.)

[High-Chancellor]

Ideally, you can enchant a monk's unarmed strikes just as you can a fighters weapons. Monk weapons are also easily enchantable, and silversheen is also usefull with unarmed strikes. So damage reduction isn't really as much a problem as people make it.


On Improved Natural Attack: What does a greataxe do again? 1d12? So then you have 1d12 + 14 if your barb has 18 strength, but even if your monk has just 12 str that's still 4d8 + 1. 15-26 vs 5-25, not THAT bad given the monk is more for support combat than full combat. Give them both 18 (Though I have no idea what kind of build would have a monk with 18 str), that goes up to 10-30.

A level 1 human monk can take it and do 1d8 from the start, which isn't that bad given he can do it with either hand. (Though I guess his other limbs are still 1d6.)

And that's something else. A monk can do his regular damage even if both arms are incapacitated, which would be highly usefull if the party is, say, captured somehow.

[JaronK]

On Improved Natural Attack: What does a greataxe do again? 1d12? So then you have 1d12 + 14 if your barb has 18 strength, but even if your monk has just 12 str that's still 4d8 + 1. 15-26 vs 5-25, not THAT bad given the monk is more for support combat than full combat. Give them both 18 (Though I have no idea what kind of build would have a monk with 18 str), that goes up to 10-30.

The problem is that strength isn't the only way to boost damage. Power attack and martial adept attacks do so much damage that the number of dice you roll really doesn't matter, unless you start using Greater Mighty Whallop and the like. Remember, that level 20 monk has to compete with the Frenzied Berserker who gets 6:1 power attack returns and takes the penalty to AC instead of to hit.


A level 1 human monk can take it and do 1d8 from the start, which isn't that bad given he can do it with either hand. (Though I guess his other limbs are still 1d6.)

All limbs will do 1d8.


And that's something else. A monk can do his regular damage even if both arms are incapacitated, which would be highly usefull if the party is, say, captured somehow.

That comes up... how often?

JaronK

[MeklorIlavator]

That comes up... how often?

JaronK

Exacally as many times as the Dm or the designers of the module want sto throw a bone to the monk.

[Indon]

Awesome random observation.

Wizard: "We seem to be in some sort of antimagic dead zone..."
Monk: *collapses* "What was that, sonny? I can't quite hear ya..."

Nonsense. Everyone knows that as people age, they become better at hearing things! Seeing them, too. :smallbiggrin:

And a monk can do unarmed damage not only when his arms are incapacitated, but when they're full, say, with a 2-handed weapon, or if he's carrying something above his head near his max carrying capacity, or the like.

[Dervag]

The problem is that strength isn't the only way to boost damage. Power attack and martial adept attacks do so much damage that the number of dice you roll really doesn't matter, unless you start using Greater Mighty Whallop and the like. Remember, that level 20 monk has to compete with the Frenzied Berserker who gets 6:1 power attack returns and takes the penalty to AC instead of to hit.Of course, the Frenzied Berserker has the drawback of being the ultimate in 'friendly fire' builds. That can't be measured in stats, but it definitely counts for something.

Ideally, the monk should get so many attacks per round that it offsets the fighter/barbarian-type's superior damage per attack. That would also be consistent with the flavor: "this martial artist is so good they can kill you five times before you hit the ground" and all that.

In practice, I admit, it isn't so.

[Zincorium]

Of course, the Frenzied Berserker has the drawback of being the ultimate in 'friendly fire' builds. That can't be measured in stats, but it definitely counts for something.

Ideally, the monk should get so many attacks per round that it offsets the fighter/barbarian-type's superior damage per attack. That would also be consistent with the flavor: "this martial artist is so good they can kill you five times before you hit the ground" and all that.

In practice, I admit, it isn't so.

Well, really the monk should be absolutely unbeatable at the following things (and they are not):

Tripping
Grappling
Disarming
Attacking while moving around

The first three can't compete with any full BAB character unless they take the 'improved x' feats, and even then they fall behind after a certain point. The last one is kind of tricky because you'd think that if anyone could make full use of the spring attack maneuver, it would be monks, but they are worse off doing it than almost anyone.

Really, either monks should get increasingly large bonuses to the top three attacks or full BAB. They should also get to use flurry of blows either as a standard action (which I'm leery of) or when grappled/spring attacking.

[Belkarseviltwin]

One more thing:
I give monks the 3.0 unarmed attack bonus. In other words, when fighting unarmed they get iterative attacks at -3 rather than -5 (so a monk with a BAB of +8 attachs at +8/+5/+2 rather than +8/+3). They can flurry in addition to this.
In 3.0, the flurry of blows attack penalty was a static -2, and there was no Greater Flurry. I'm not sure whether using the 3.5 flurry rules with the 3.0 unarmed attack bonus would be too powerful.

[Talya]

They absolutely should get greater flurry along with the 3.0 iterative attack progression.

Flurry should also function with a standard action attack.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Flurry should also function with a standard action attack.
The problem with that is that an 11th-level Monk is attacking 3 times at full BAB with a standard action.
That might not be such a problem, though. I'll test it in my next game (someone wants to play a Monk).

[Talya]

The problem with that is that an 11th-level Monk is attacking 3 times at full BAB with a standard action.
That might not be such a problem, though. I'll test it in my next game (someone wants to play a Monk).

I don't think it is a problem...it's rather the point. The monk should be the epitome of the mobile damage dealer, and they're not.

[PirateMonk]

Babarian needs to be taken to next cleric to get rid of magical disease? Monk has disease immunity from low levels already.


...No.

From the SRD:


Purity of Body (Ex)

At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Yes, this has severely limited impact on the debate, I just thought I should mention it. :smallsmile:

[Talya]

Yes, this has severely limited impact on the debate, I just thought I should mention it. :smallsmile:

Of course, that magical disease must first penetrate SR, then surpass the monk's always average-or-better saving throw...

[PirateMonk]

Of course, that magical disease must first penetrate SR, then surpass the monk's always average-or-better saving throw...

But the monk doesn't get SR until level 13, and Barbarians also have good Fort saves, which is really all that matters for magical disease resistance.

[Skjaldbakka]

It took me a long time to read through all that, and I fall on the side of 'monk could use some work, but is useful to a party, and definitely not a hindrance to one'

A few points I would like to recap on, in favor of this POV:

1)Monk's deal less damage than a fighter. They should. If you give up on dealing damage, you alleviate MAD (except for skills, see 4)
2)Monk's can use gauntlets as unarmed strikes, with a feat. This has been supported by FAQ. I also think most GMs would allow the clothwraps thing.
3)A monk has staying power, and a high AC (not higher than the fighter can get, but that is irrelevant, it is still high).
4)Monks do not get enough skill points to do everything a monk should be able to do. This is why monks are MAD. They need INT to get the skills they need, which are not INt based, and INT does nothing else for the class.
5)All these classes that are veing brought up as strictly better than monk(ex. swordsage), were made after the monk. A more constructive approach would be to compare monk to what was available at the same time as monk. I'm sure 4.0 monk will be much improved over the current model, probably closer to swordsage.

I probably forgot some things, but on to my argument.

Monks are really good at two things:

1)We need to get that _______!
A monk excels at getting to hard to reach spots, without expending resources(high movement rate + movement skills). Also, a monk with sun school can abundant step+grapple+stunning fist that caster on the other side of the battlefield, in one action. He can also bring the party rogue with him, to sneak attack the grappled caster (immediately, if the rogue delayed or readied an action).

2)Flanking bonus.
A monk can get into a flanking position with the fighter, and stay there, and is quite likely to survive in that position, especially since he won't be the primary target. Which means the monk is contributing his sub-par damage, AND is giving the Power Attacking with a greatsword fighter an extra 4 damage per attack. Which adds up to a significant amount. Sure, a rogue can do more damage from a flank, but a rogue that moves to flank and sneak attacks is going to get hit with everything that thing has got(unless it drops). The monk won't, and can probably take a full attack.


These two things add up to a good fifth or third person.
By third person, I mean an undersized party (a monk can pretend to be scout and tank).


Now, my monk wish list:

1) the cloth wraps idea should be core.
2) monks should get 6+int skills
3) monks should retain leap of the clouds from 3.0, and get the ninja mobility skill bonus thing (don't remember what its called, but gave a scaling bonus to you classic 'mobility' skills).
4)Quivering palm should be 1/day
5)Abundant step should be scaling times/day, and be available sooner.
6)Monks should get bonuses to disarm and trip attempts (they should be the best class for doing this, they aren't. A monk trying for high STR to trip falls to MAD).
7)Monks should get freedom of movement, like Travel domain, but fewer rounds per day (maybe wisdom mod in rounds per day). Like I said, wishlist.
My namesake is a cleric of Fharlaghn/Monk.

[endersdouble]

Frankly, there's a very simple solution to this--play a Swordsage. They /can/ attack multiple times with a standard action--or just attack once, and do something interesting--or in general, not suck.

Of course, I believe that classes should be/are transparent (Master Fu has no idea that he's a Swordsage 11/Monk 2/Shadow Sun Ninja 3/Random Splat 1, he' s just a master of the Six Fists style.) Makes a lot more sense, removes stupid OOC/IC problems and...how do I put this--allow people to build archetypes like Monk or Fighter or, god forbid, Samurai, without having to, y'know, use those named classes and suck hard. A character who's a Swordsage 7 (especially if unarmed variant) can very well /be/ a eastern-martial-arts-style monk.

Of course, I also vastly prefer any number of classless systems to D&D, but that's an argument for another day (go play Exalted is the short version.)

[PirateMonk]

5)All these classes that are veing brought up as strictly better than monk(ex. swordsage), were made after the monk. A more constructive approach would be to compare monk to what was available at the same time as monk.

What about Druids? Basically, all a monk can do that a Druid can't is teleport without plants, have SR, be an Outsider, and go ethereal... and a Druid can do so much more. With good Dex, use of Barkskin (or Tortoise Shell), and maybe a Monk's Belt, the Druid can even have similar AC, though not much besides casters will be hitting it if the Druid decides to Wildshape into a hawk, set up a wind wall, fly up, and start summoning animals.

[Skjaldbakka]

The fact that a monk is not CoDzilla does not mean it is underpowered. Also; (rant)I hate monk's belt. It should not be. Fighter gets 'exclusive' feats, which aren't that awesome (although most will take them). But the monk's iconic ability to make unarmed attacks and add wisdom to AC? magic item.(/rant)

[pedrokraemer]

I think Monks are overpowerings!!!!

They should absolutely NOT be a part of a europe middle age campaign...

[Talya]

The fact that a monk is not CoDzilla does not mean it is underpowered.
A monk is underpowered because all they can do is survive. They cannot do ANY job in a way that cannot be better performed by a different class. They aren't even a "jack of all trades" like a bard.

With a few simple tweaks the monk becomes very good and worth playing. They still aren't "CoDzilla."



Also; (rant)I hate monk's belt. It should not be. Fighter gets 'exclusive' feats, which aren't that awesome (although most will take them). But the monk's iconic ability to make unarmed attacks and add wisdom to AC? magic item.(/rant)



I'm not sure this made any sense at all. What are you trying to say here?

[Talya]

I think Monks are overpowerings!!!!

At what, exactly?



They should absolutely NOT be a part of a europe middle age campaign...

Agreed!

However, no published D&D setting is a "Europe middle age campaign."

[SpikeFightwicky]

Here's a thought about the VoP monk w/ respect to the Tomes:

Wouldn't the monk need to donate the book isntead of reading it? As I recall (memory may be fuzzy), and exalted character is the epitome of selflessness and altruism. So how could they ready a hyper expensive magic item when they could trade it in to get enough money to build a few orphanages? +1 tomes are worth 27,500 gp. Is an exalted characted not, by default, supposed to think of other less fortunates before themselves? If so, how could they read the book in good conscious?

A potion is alot different. They don't cost nearly as much, and can turn the tide of a battle, and I'm pretty sure you drink them as soon as they're given by the party member, otherwise it's a claim in ownership (which results in the saving of lives for the greater good, for a relatively little cost - max potion cost is 3000 gp). For the tome, you take tens of thousands of gold worth of possible charity money and use it on yourself for a non-immediate benefit that you're supposed to be getting because you took a vow to... donate all your wealth to charity and get bonuses in return.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but doesn't this go against the entire point of the VoP (e.g. shouldn't they be satisfied with the gifts they're receiving from a higher power, as opposed to using expensive treasure to increase their personal power?)?

[Skjaldbakka]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka
The fact that a monk is not CoDzilla does not mean it is underpowered.

A monk is underpowered because all they can do is survive. They cannot do ANY job in a way that cannot be better performed by a different class. They aren't even a "jack of all trades" like a bard.

I was responding to PirateMonk here. Any non-spellcasting class pales when compared to the capability of a druid or cleric or wizard. And I already listed two roles that a monk fills better than any class.


Quote:
Also; (rant)I hate monk's belt. It should not be. Fighter gets 'exclusive' feats, which aren't that awesome (although most will take them). But the monk's iconic ability to make unarmed attacks and add wisdom to AC? magic item.(/rant)

I'm not sure this made any sense at all. What are you trying to say here?

Allow me to clarify in a non-ranting fashion:
Various classes get abilities unique to them:
Fighter: exclusive feats- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Druid: Wild Shape- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Cleric: Turn Undead- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Rogue: Sneak Attack- can be enhanced, but not duplicated with a magic item
Paladin: Divine Grace- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Wizard/Sorceror: Familiar- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Ranger: Hide in plain sight- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Barbarian: Rage- can't be duplicated with a magic item
Monk: unarmed attack, wisdom to AC- CAN be duplicated with a magic item

addmitedly, some of these are a stretch, but you should still get my point.

[Talya]

Monk: unarmed attack, wisdom to AC- CAN be duplicated with a magic item

addmitedly, some of these are a stretch, but you should still get my point.


I see, yes, that makes more sense. Duplicating a monk primary class ability for other classes...I can see frustration with that if you play a monk.

However, it's kinda neat if you're a monk and wear it yourself (+5 levels to a primary class ability is worthwhile.)

[Talya]

For the tome, you take tens of thousands of gold worth of possible charity money and use it on yourself for a non-immediate benefit that you're supposed to be getting because you took a vow to... donate all your wealth to charity and get bonuses in return.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but doesn't this go against the entire point of the VoP (e.g. shouldn't they be satisfied with the gifts they're receiving from a higher power, as opposed to using expensive treasure to increase their personal power?)?


Yes, you are correct. You can't do it unless it belongs to another character and they insist that you use it yourself.

[Skjaldbakka]

Other thoughts on monk: Monk works really well in a specialized party, as has been brought up before but not really expounded upon (a monk can be a rogue's best friend).

Lets take a party of sorceror, monk, rogue, bard.

Everyone has stealth (sorceror via invisibility, everyone else via light armor and skills). When the entire party gets a surprise round, it is a beautiful thing.

Healing seems a bit low, except the monk can heal himself some, the rogue has UMD, and the bard takes the cure spells. That with a wand of cure light and a few scrolls/potions of the bigger heals, give you the healing you need. Also, two PCs have evasion, which cuts down on damage.

In a straight up fight, the monk can tank, and the rogue can spring attack behind him for sneak attacks. The bard sits by the sorc. with inspire courage and a ranged weapon. The sorceror does what sorceror's do.

And as far as having weapons when you wouldn't normally:
Monk has unarmed combat, rogue and bard have sleight of hand to conceal weapons, sorceror has spells.

Tell me this isn't a viable party, and that the monk isn't contributing.

[Dausuul]

Other thoughts on monk: Monk works really well in a specialized party, as has been brought up before but not really expounded upon (a monk can be a rogue's best friend).

Lets take a party of sorceror, monk, rogue, bard.

Everyone has stealth (sorceror via invisibility, everyone else via light armor and skills). When the entire party gets a surprise round, it is a beautiful thing.

Healing seems a bit low, except the monk can heal himself some, the rogue has UMD, and the bard takes the cure spells. That with a wand of cure light and a few scrolls/potions of the bigger heals, give you the healing you need. Also, two PCs have evasion, which cuts down on damage.

In a straight up fight, the monk can tank, and the rogue can spring attack behind him for sneak attacks. The bard sits by the sorc. with inspire courage and a ranged weapon. The sorceror does what sorceror's do.

And as far as having weapons when you wouldn't normally:
Monk has unarmed combat, rogue and bard have sleight of hand to conceal weapons, sorceror has spells.

Tell me this isn't a viable party, and that the monk isn't contributing.

How does the monk "tank?" This isn't an MMO, monsters don't have aggro. What stops the monsters from running right past the monk to beat on the sorceror and the bard?

This is the fundamental problem with most D&D melee classes. Their theoretical role is to be the tough, beefy guys who absorb hits for the fragile casters, but they have no way to make monsters hit them instead of the casters, so all those hit points and AC go for naught.

This can be addressed in two ways. The Tome of Battle melee classes trade defense for offense; ToB melee-ers don't tank, they kill. The knight from PHB 2 is a traditional tank, but he gets special abilities that can force enemies to attack him. Either way works... but monks have neither powerful offensive abilities nor a way to draw enemies' attention to themselves.

[Talya]

This can be addressed in two ways. The Tome of Battle melee classes trade defense for offense; ToB melee-ers don't tank, they kill. The knight from PHB 2 is a traditional tank, but he gets special abilities that can force enemies to attack him. Either way works... but monks have neither powerful offensive abilities nor a way to draw enemies' attention to themselves.


A third way: make flight rare, have terrain matter so that melee classes can "block the way," forcing opponents to bullrush them if they want to get by.

[Dausuul]

A third way: make flight rare, have terrain matter so that melee classes can "block the way," forcing opponents to bullrush them if they want to get by.

That also works, but it relies on the DM to set up appropriate scenarios; it's tantamount to a house ruling.

[Diamondeye]

It's not houseruling; it's an adventure scenario. In some cases you'll have a terrain advantage in some you won't.

There's no rule, after all, that any given enemy has to be able to ignore the melees and go for the wizard. Some confrontations should take place in areas where that can be done; some shouldn't.

House ruling is changing the mechanics of the game, not aspects of the setting.

[Fourth Tempter]

Not to mention that after the tenth fight in such territory, it would be dull.

[Skjaldbakka]

In most fights, rushing past the frontliner will provoke. A monk has combat reflexes, imporved disarm, improved trip, and stunning fist as bonus feat options (I don't think you can not have one of these if you are a monk).

A fighter typically won't have any of these unless that is what he is specifically shooting for in his build.

And how does any other PHB class improve on this problem? Other sourcebooks are really irrelevant to this discussion, as the argument is that monk is an underpowered and poorly thought out class. Comparing it to other things that didn't exist at the time monk started out doesn't prove this point.

Also keep in mind that in my example party, the guy rushing the sorceror is getting attacked by the rogue and the monk on the way there, and the bard can drop his bow and engage with a rapier, and you still have a flanking set up for the rogue to sneak attack. That's why the bard hangs back with the sorceror, to be backup.

I will admit that the primary damage source here is the rogue, and so there are some weaknesses:

Undead: Hi touch ACs help here, plus the sorc. can mage armor the party.
Constructs: adamantine ki strike is useful here
Plants: arcane caster
Elementals:arcane caster

[Arbitrarity]

But I could build a fighter that did that better.

Although he doesn't get surprise, he really doesn't need it...

[Skjaldbakka]

Yes, you can build alot of things with a fighter. But the fighter doesn't fit into the Full-Stealth party. Your fighter would be handicapping the party, because he blows the surprise round for the rest of the group.

Really, the test here is pretty straightforward:

Build a character that is a better unarmed, unarmored fighter than a monk, without taking monk levels, or using splatbooks.

EDIT- and the gauntlet is thrown . . . hehe

[Talya]

You have a point about the "all stealth party," although a ranger could be part of it just fine. However...why is it important to be able to fight unarmored and unarmed? Rogues are among the ultimate stealth classes, and they wear armor and use weapons...

Stealthy party possibilities (un-multiclassed):
Rogue (duh)
Monk
Ranger
Druid
Bard


That's it, really, from core. Wizards and sorcerors don't have the skill ranks or class skills to do it, clerics wear big armor usually, and don't have the skills either. Fighters and paladins, forget it. Barbarians? Non-class, although they could end up as passable stealthy types.

[lord_khaine]

gahh isnt this topic soon dead?
if people would care to read the previous posts, they would proberly find out that most of these topics have allready been covered several times.

as for the better unarmed fighter, np, ill just make a druid, focused on wild shaping...

[Arbitrarity]

Ninja!

No, kidding. Really :smallyuk:

Maybe lots of rogues! :smallbiggrin:

*Stabbity, stabbity, stabbity death*!

[Quietus]

Yes, you can build alot of things with a fighter. But the fighter doesn't fit into the Full-Stealth party. Your fighter would be handicapping the party, because he blows the surprise round for the rest of the group.

Really, the test here is pretty straightforward:

Build a character that is a better unarmed, unarmored fighter than a monk, without taking monk levels, or using splatbooks.

EDIT- and the gauntlet is thrown . . . hehe

That include feats from splatbooks? I could give it a shot with the Fighter, see what I end up with. Wouldn't need the Reaping Mauler PrC either (though it'd make things a million times better)

::Edit:: Ah, unarmored... heh. I could make a better armored, unarmed fighter, easily. The Fighter's lack of armor would be a little more difficult. Even so, I'll give it a shot - without use of Wild Shape/Polycheese. So yeah... no feats from splatbooks either eh?

[Glyphic]

How does the monk "tank?" This isn't an MMO, monsters don't have aggro. What stops the monsters from running right past the monk to beat on the sorceror and the bard?

Coat the monk in Spices and bacon fat. Alternatively, strap raw meat to him. Give him a couple of flesh wounds too: this should cover all your bases.

Then suggest to the monster that it is hungry.

BAM!

[Indon]

Coat the monk in Spices and bacon fat. Alternatively, strap raw meat to him. Give him a couple of flesh wounds too: this should cover all your bases.

Then suggest to the monster that it is hungry.

BAM!

Now I want to use this.

Now, can a Vow of Poverty monk wear spices? I mean, spices are expensive. If he makes himself too delicious, he might break his vow.

[Quietus]

Now I want to use this.

Now, can a Vow of Poverty monk wear spices? I mean, spices are expensive. If he makes himself too delicious, he might break his vow.

What if you have a party member do it for you?

.....

*Tears off his shirt* Grease me up, woman!

[JaronK]

Yes, you can build alot of things with a fighter. But the fighter doesn't fit into the Full-Stealth party. Your fighter would be handicapping the party, because he blows the surprise round for the rest of the group.

Really, the test here is pretty straightforward:

Build a character that is a better unarmed, unarmored fighter than a monk, without taking monk levels, or using splatbooks.

EDIT- and the gauntlet is thrown . . . hehe

Unarmed Varient Swordsage 20.

Druid 20.

Wildshape Ranger Varient 20.

I win.

JaronK

[Indon]

Unarmed Varient Swordsage 20.

Druid 20.

Wildshape Ranger Varient 20.

I win.

JaronK

Well, at least the Druid qualifies.

[Fourth Tempter]

Fighter 20 Wearing A Monk's Belt. Or Fighter 12/Barbarian 8.

Why precisely would the character need to be unarmored, in any case?

[Indon]

Fighter 20 Wearing A Monk's Belt. Or Fighter 12/Barbarian 8.

Why precisely would the character need to be unarmored, in any case?

What would a fighter or barbarian do to even get close to a monk's unarmed damage? If they try power attacking for more than 2.5 damage, they fall behind the monk's damage potential.

And neither have a chance of being as durable as the monk without armor.

[Dartonus]

Also, Dartonus, your observation of their Etherealness is mildly flawed - how, precisely, are you making use of the fact that their armor and such doesn't matter, when you aren't on the material plane?

That said, the Ethereal ability, even a minor one like that, can do a LOT for a person's mobility.

I meant the enmy's armor. Monks don't wear armor. silly quietus.

Also, what about the sword of raging? That lets you rage upon entering combat. Plus, does it ever state that those feats are fighter only? It just says they can pick them as bonus feats.

[JaronK]

Well, at least the Druid qualifies.


The Ranger can Wild Shape almost as well as the Druid, but adds in full BAB for extra fun. It's not even close. He can also self buff if he needs.

The Swordsage has the same unarmed damage as a Monk, plus wisdom to AC, losing flurry in favor of a wide array of martial manuevers. Again, it's not even close.

Of course, all of those could wear armour if they wanted without losing anything, too.

JaronK

[greenknight]

Ah, unarmored... heh. I could make a better armored, unarmed fighter, easily. The Fighter's lack of armor would be a little more difficult. Even so, I'll give it a shot - without use of Wild Shape/Polycheese. So yeah... no feats from splatbooks either eh?

I didn't come up with it, but here's a very effective Fighter build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2243796&postcount=388)which is 100% Core, and it doesn't use polymorph / wildshape either. My response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2243796&postcount=389) does use polycheese, but it's also 100% Core.

I should mention that both builds make use of a Monk's Belt for AC, which you might not like but it's a Core item. And in the case of the second build, while the stats are impressive, the character doesn't really need to physically attack most of the time. Instead, the character could use the Gate spell and bring in something like a Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (DC 43 Will save or die on sight, vs most foes), or a Huge 50HD Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), if you insist on playing Core. BTW, that Solar has a BAB of +50, so even an AC of 60+ should be fairly trivial for it to hit.

[Quietus]

I meant the enmy's armor. Monks don't wear armor. silly quietus.

Yes, and you're ethereal and thus unable to affect them. How does your etherealness affect their armor again?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I appologize for this. I don't mean anything by it. It's just that every time I see the topic title, I think this and giggle a little.

"Because you touch yourself at night."

[Indon]

I didn't come up with it, but here's a very effective Fighter build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2243796&postcount=388)which is 100% Core, and it doesn't use polymorph / wildshape either.

A monk with the same stat and item selection (but, of course, a sparser feat selection, severely limiting the ranged capability of that build) has better AC and damage (but, of course 5 less to-hit). A monk somehow proficient in a Longbow could even perform decently at range, and still melee perfectly fine while holding such a bow.



My response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2243796&postcount=388) does use polycheese, but it's also 100% Core.

I should mention that both builds make use of a Monk's Belt for AC, which you might not like but it's a Core item. And in the case of the second build, while the stats are impressive, the character doesn't really need to physically attack most of the time. Instead, the character could use the Gate spell and bring in something like a Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (DC 43 Will save or die on sight, vs most foes), or a Huge 50HD Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), if you insist on playing Core. BTW, that Solar has a BAB of +50, so even an AC of 60+ should be fairly trivial for it to hit.

This second link is to the same build, but it's not like I need to read another post about how D&D magic is breakable.

And JaronK; the person specified in the post that you quoted, "no splatbooks". At least the druid qualifies, eh? The wildshape ranger may as well, I forget if it's core (It's from Unearthed Arcana, right?), and it's basically solving the problem the same way.

I think everyone here already knows the potential of optimized Polymorph usage. I guess we could make the monk more powerful by giving him a kind of Wild Shape, eh? If my DM houseruled monks with it, I certainly wouldn't complain.

[JaronK]

Well fair enough, but if we're saying no splatbooks, let's reword the question in a way the means the same thing, but highlights the problem:

From a list of just 11 classes, the base classes, can you name one other class that does exactly what the monk is supposed to specialize in, but is better at that than a monk, while still being great in its own area too?

If you can get anything, you know you're in trouble... and the Druid does it without any problems, plus has spells to boot if they want.

As soon as we open it up to all classes, the poor monk gets trampled.

JaronK

[Indon]

If you can get anything, you know you're in trouble... and the Druid does it without any problems, plus has spells to boot if they want.


The Druid can do that with almost any class but the Wizard (and by extention Sorceror), and that's because the wizard can almost do that to the druid (they can't ressurect or heal), and the Cleric heals a little better. I'd much rather not turn this thread into another, "OMG some classes obsolete others when optimized!" thread, eh?

Edit: And as soon as we open it up to all classes, I'm pretty sure you could make builds to obsolete every core class, even druid and wizard (probably involving Artificer or somesuch).

[Bassetking]

Yes, you can build alot of things with a fighter. But the fighter doesn't fit into the Full-Stealth party. Your fighter would be handicapping the party, because he blows the surprise round for the rest of the group.

Really, the test here is pretty straightforward:

Build a character that is a better unarmed, unarmored fighter than a monk, without taking monk levels, or using splatbooks.

EDIT- and the gauntlet is thrown . . . hehe

Right. Full-Stealth Party, outperforming a Monk at Unarmed, Unarmored fighting.

Do you mind if I use Point-buy 32, and, say, build him at level 10?

Lesser Tiefling Swordsage 5 / Bloodclaw Master 5
EDIT: Originally planned on building entire level 10 character, decided not to expend the effort.

For the sake of the supposed level 20, we'll swing Swordsage 15/ Bloodclaw Mauler 5, Focusing on Tiger Claw, and Setting Sun. We'll take a Tiger Claw Stance, at first level, say, the one granting Scent, and in so doing, pick up Weapon Focus "Unarmed Strike" through Swordsage. We'll also pick up Improved Unarmed Strike along the way, and give ourselves a tasty beast!

[greenknight]

A monk with the same stat and item selection (but, of course, a sparser feat selection, severely limiting the ranged capability of that build) has better AC and damage (but, of course 5 less to-hit). A monk somehow proficient in a Longbow could even perform decently at range, and still melee perfectly fine while holding such a bow.

Well, since you did specify unarmed, I guess I'll have to give you this one since that character needs weapons. If you allow the Fighter to be armed though, the overall damage output is greater than a Monk's.


This second link is to the same build, but it's not like I need to read another post about how D&D magic is breakable.

Sorry, fixed that. And as I mentioned previously, this character can fight quite well without using Polymorph Any Object just by casting Gate, so it can work both unarmed and unarmored, and as such meets the requirements of your challenge.


I think everyone here already knows the potential of optimized Polymorph usage. I guess we could make the monk more powerful by giving him a kind of Wild Shape, eh? If my DM houseruled monks with it, I certainly wouldn't complain.

Why would you need it? Monks are one of the classes which can benefit greatly from Polymorph Any Object, which can be cast on others and lasts for a very long time if you choose the right form.

[Indon]

Well, since you did specify unarmed, I guess I'll have to give you this one since that character needs weapons. If you allow the Fighter to be armed though, the overall damage output is greater than a Monk's.

It actually wasn't my challenge (Looking back, it was Skjaldbakka's). I'm just pointing out that everyone's solutions are either oriented around magic breakage (polymorph or otherwise), or are from Tome of Battle, which isn't core. I'm looking at you, Bassetking.



Why would you need it? Monks are one of the classes which can benefit greatly from Polymorph Any Object, which can be cast on others and lasts for a very long time if you choose the right form.

Many on this thread are of the opinion that the monk must be self-sufficient in order to be powerful, and should not be able to make significant use of their party's resources.

While I agree with you, were monks so able, we wouldn't be able to keep talking about how the monk may be weak (as, since they can benefit greatly from buffs like that, it'd be pretty easy to be an effective monk; need flying, get polymorphed. Need to grapple, get polymorphed. Need to outright kill things in melee, get polymorphed. The monk benefits hugely). So really, the thread title should be more like "Why is the monk weak when essentially soloing?"

[greenknight]

Many on this thread are of the opinion that the monk must be self-sufficient in order to be powerful, and should not be able to make significant use of their party's resources.

It helps if the Monk can be self sufficient, or can at least contribute as much as the other party members. I guess the real comparison in Core is between Monk and Druid, or Rogue in some cases. Monks can fight well unarmed, but so can a Druid (particularly with a Monk's Belt, or one level of Monk). Monks are very good at Spot / Listen, but so are Druids (and Rogues, to a lesser extent). Monks are good at sneaking around, but so are Rogues, or Druids wildshaped into something which seems harmless. And Rogues have both Trapfinding and Search as a class skill, which makes them better at finding traps than Druids or Monks (although the Druid might summon an animal to check out something suspicious).

Ultimately, Monks are weak for the same reason Fighters are weak - other classes can do their job equally well (or even better sometimes), and do more besides.

[Fourth Tempter]

Monks are weak for a combination of the reasons Fighters and Bards are weak, actually--there is what you mentioned, and then there is the fact that they do not have a specific job.

[Indon]

Ultimately, Monks are weak for the same reason Fighters are weak - other classes can do their job equally well (or even better sometimes), and do more besides.

Monks are almost better scouts than rangers; they can move just as stealthily, but much more rapidly, and mobility is good for a scout (in fact, the Scout class has higher speed itself, albeit not so much as the monk). The only thing rangers have over monks in this regard is their hide-enhancing class features (and really, Hide in Plain Sight is a combat move, not a scouting move).

[Fourth Tempter]

Monks are almost better scouts than rangers; they can move just as stealthily, but much more rapidly, and mobility is good for a scout (in fact, the Scout class has higher speed itself, albeit not so much as the monk). The only thing rangers have over monks in this regard is their hide-enhancing class features (and really, Hide in Plain Sight is a combat move, not a scouting move).

Rangers have Hide-enhancing class-features, Track and the Survival skill, and Hide in Plain Sight is excellent for scouting if you need to scout, say, an encampment, as is Camoflauge. In addition, Ranger spells (such as Speak With Animals and Speak with Plants) can benefit a scout greatly.

[Indon]

Rangers have Hide-enhancing class-features, Track and the Survival skill, and Hide in Plain Sight is excellent for scouting if you need to scout, say, an encampment, as is Camoflauge. In addition, Ranger spells (such as Speak With Animals and Speak with Plants) can benefit a scout greatly.

Track is great for tracking, no doubt, and hide in plain sight and camoflauge only function in natural terrain, which becomes less and less applicable the more entrenched an encampment (which also would make the abilities more useful if they could be used) becomes.

Though I guess it's a DM's call as to if, say, a city of tents with only foot-packed dirt between them counts as 'natural' terrain.

And in a straight dungeon (or rather, for any environment the ranger isn't built for, since there are urban rangers and such), the ranger loses almost all those advantages (leaving some of their spellcasting applicable).

Edit: Though, a monk that took the Track feat, even with few or no ranks in Survival, would be a fair tracker. With their speed, they could afford to always move at half speed without slowing the party and could easily manage moderate DC's. A monk with survival, or just an item that grants +10 to survival (which would also make tracking vastly more viable), could easily feed their entire party while traveling and still probably move faster than the rest of their party will.

[Orzel]

Rogue and Rangers are the best core scouts in the game. Monks and tiny wild shaped Duids are second rate. Ranger spells let you send critter and plants to scout for you, boost hiding, twart detection. Camo and HIPS lets you hide anywhere anytime in nature. Tracks lets you scout without getting anywhere close to the enemy. Rogue have UMD.

Monks and tiny Druids just has high Hide mods.

[Aquillion]

Monks and tiny Druids just has high Hide mods.Tiny druids also have spells, you know, assuming they take Wild Shape (which is a given.)

[Orzel]

Okay Monks just have high Hide Mods. Tiny Druids have decent Hide mods and the scouting spells they almost never prepare.

Bards are good scouts too.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Monks are almost better scouts than rangers; they can move just as stealthily...Arguable. The Ranger has more skill points, which makes him less rank-starved. If he maxes Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently, he's still got 2+Int skill points to spare each level, and the Monk has none at all. Thus the Monk is far more likely to spread his skill points across multiple skills, lowering his modifier in each of them.

[JaronK]

Okay Monks just have high Hide Mods. Tiny Druids have decent Hide mods and the scouting spells they almost never prepare.

Bards are good scouts too.

Wait, how did the monk get a higher hide mod than a tiny sized druid? The Druid gets a, what, +8 to hide for size, plus any bonuses related to the form in question. Also, the Druid can slip through cracks or fly over obsticles, neither one of which the Monk is particularly good at.

The Wizard, meanwhile, has a full divination line up.

JaronK

[Thrawn183]

This is only slightly off-topic, so what the heck.
A lot of people are mentioning the inability of a monk to flurry and move at the same time and having trouble fixing it because three attacks as a standard action is too much. What about using the rules for a partial charge as inspiration? A partial charge is half the distance and only a +1 to hit (and a -1 to AC?). What about making it so that a monk could get a single extra attack on a flurry (as a standard action) rather than two (which they'd still get on the full round attack of course), and maybe cut the penalty, at lower levels when there is one, in half (this is optional of course)?

I understand a partial charge can only be done in certain situations, it just struck me as an interesting way of striking a balance for a different problem and thought I might be able to apply the principle behind it to the monk's flurry of blows ability.

Thoughts?

[Orzel]

By the time the tiny druid adds up his racial, size and DEX bonus their Hide mod is between 12-18 at level 11. Hide mod of 12-18 is good at level 11 . A *laugh* druid buffed for stealthwould beat a monk in pure mod though...


Good luck finding a druid with more than 1 Cat's Grace.

[Talya]

This is only slightly off-topic, so what the heck.
A lot of people are mentioning the inability of a monk to flurry and move at the same time and having trouble fixing it because three attacks as a standard action is too much. What about using the rules for a partial charge as inspiration? A partial charge is half the distance and only a +1 to hit (and a -1 to AC?). What about making it so that a monk could get a single extra attack on a flurry (as a standard action) rather than two (which they'd still get on the full round attack of course), and maybe cut the penalty, at lower levels when there is one, in half (this is optional of course)?

I understand a partial charge can only be done in certain situations, it just struck me as an interesting way of striking a balance for a different problem and thought I might be able to apply the principle behind it to the monk's flurry of blows ability.

Thoughts?

Why limit it? There are feats and classes that let you make complete full attacks while moving in certain situations. Surely three attacks while moving is no big problem.

[Quietus]

Why limit it? There are feats and classes that let you make complete full attacks while moving in certain situations. Surely three attacks while moving is no big problem.

I'd say it's even less of a problem when you consider that it's limited to monk weapons, which, as a rule, are all low-damage (except for possibly the unarmed strikes, though as has been noted, those are difficult to get enhancement and other bonuses on). I don't think it'd be unreasonable to give a higher-level thing, "perfect flurry", at level 16 or so that lets you flurry as a standard.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Track is great for tracking, no doubt, and hide in plain sight and camoflauge only function in natural terrain, which becomes less and less applicable the more entrenched an encampment (which also would make the abilities more useful if they could be used) becomes.

Though I guess it's a DM's call as to if, say, a city of tents with only foot-packed dirt between them counts as 'natural' terrain.

And in a straight dungeon (or rather, for any environment the ranger isn't built for, since there are urban rangers and such), the ranger loses almost all those advantages (leaving some of their spellcasting applicable).

Edit: Though, a monk that took the Track feat, even with few or no ranks in Survival, would be a fair tracker. With their speed, they could afford to always move at half speed without slowing the party and could easily manage moderate DC's. A monk with survival, or just an item that grants +10 to survival (which would also make tracking vastly more viable), could easily feed their entire party while traveling and still probably move faster than the rest of their party will.

I find the Track feat to be one of the most pointless to take. In a plot-driven story, if the DM wants you to follow tracks, he'll let you no matter what. If he doesn't want you to, not even the most keen-eyed ranger could ever find the quarry. The only thing the feat lets you do is take the credit for the following.

[greenknight]

By the time the tiny druid adds up his racial, size and DEX bonus their Hide mod is between 12-18 at level 11. Hide mod of 12-18 is good at level 11 . A *laugh* druid buffed for stealthwould beat a monk in pure mod though...

Don't laugh too hard. Spell Compendium (and other books) has a 3rd level Druid (or Ranger) spell called Forestfold which lasts for 1 hour / level which grants a +10 Competence bonus to Hide and Move Silently while in a particular terrain type. That makes a huge difference.


There are feats and classes that let you make complete full attacks while moving in certain situations.

There are even relatively low level spells for it, such as Lion's Charge (SpC). That's a Swift spell available to Druids (3) and Rangers (2). Allowing a full attack with Monk weapons (or while unarmed) is a pretty good idea, IMO.

[Skjaldbakka]

I am highly amused at the results for that challenge. I got a druid (already established that casters win, especially CoDzilla- may as well say that all non-casting classes are obsolete, because cleric/druid can do what they do better), and a bunch of splat-book stuff. The monk came before that stuff, splat book material is part of the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game, OF COURSE splat book stuff is going to be able to make a better 'monk' character.

And the reason for unarmed/unarmored is because that is what the monk class is supposed to be able to do, and there are advantages to not having to use weapons, they are just primarily role-playing, not stat-driven. Plus you look cool.

Back to druids- yet another reason not to include druid in this discussion- once you include the druid, all the fighting classes we are comparing are obsolete as well.

[Sir Giacomo]

Back to druids- yet another reason not to include druid in this discussion- once you include the druid, all the fighting classes we are comparing are obsolete as well.

They are not. AMF of opponents, dispels of opponents, spell resistance of opponents, vulnerability to re-learn spells (the same 1 hour uninterrupted prayer per day), vulnerability of animal companion (regain with 24(!) hour uninterrupted prayer, so likely if slain gone for the rest of the adventure), limited item use&limited DEX (in high-level play)&limited communication power in wildshape, ex-druid section (including all abilities are gone once you teach language to someone else - dominate monster anyone? Absurd bluff check to pass as a druid acolythe is also enough, so a bard with glibness can be a nuisance for any druid). That should do it.
But discussing more about it would derail the thread.

Ah, and of course the monk is OK (as I posted already).

- Giacomo

[endersdouble]

Why limit it? There are feats and classes that let you make complete full attacks while moving in certain situations. Surely three attacks while moving is no big problem.

While I do agree with you--it's quite possible we can let monk full attack with a standard--it's important to be very careful with such abilities. Pounce (FA on charge) is an extremely powerful ability--ask anyone who frequents the CO board.

I'm going to stick with my advice to play a freakin' swordsage, but if we *must* rebuild the monk instead of using ToB like WotC intends, I'd actually avoid flurry altogether. Working from the PHB2 alternate class feature (forget the name and away from books, is it Decisive Strike) and letting /that/ be used as a standard action might work well.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I find the Track feat to be one of the most pointless to take. In a plot-driven story, if the DM wants you to follow tracks, he'll let you no matter what. If he doesn't want you to, not even the most keen-eyed ranger could ever find the quarry. The only thing the feat lets you do is take the credit for the following.

Depends on the how quick the DM is at thinking on the spot. I was in a party once and we encountered an ogre zombie that shambled out of the forest and attacked us (random encounter). In my head, I was thinking: If there's a zombie around here, there's likely a necro roaming around nearby, or at least who once laired nearby. Being in character, I wanted to track the zombie back to where it came from, possibly find the lair of an evil creature. The problem with that, is that if the DM can't improvise very well (which mine couldn't, and obviously only wanted a quick random encounter and didn't think of why a zombie would be lumbering around in a forest in the middle of nowhere, so I didn't bother following through), the idea will just fall through. If the DM is more proficient, it might lead to an interesting side-quest involving the lair of a living (or once living now dead) evil creature.

I admit my exampled scenario may be rare, but it would make for an interesting side-quest. You're entirely correct that it's not a mandatory skill if you're just doing a hack'n'slash, or you're going through the main plot of a plot driven game.

[Aquillion]

They are not. AMF of opponents, dispels of opponents, spell resistance of opponents, vulnerability to re-learn spells (the same 1 hour uninterrupted prayer per day)These things are theoretically a weakness of all full casters, though AMFs appear so rarely that they don't tend to matter, while SR can worked around easily. Essentially, shutting down re-learning spells or using AMF is relying on DM fait to balance the class, which proves they're overpowered.

More importantly, though, Druids are the least vulnerable of all full casters on each of these counts. Even if the enemy has SR or they can't re-memorize their spells, they still have Wild Shape; even in an AMF, they still have 3/4 BAB, d8 for HP, a wild animal companion, and some armor.


vulnerability of animal companion (regain with 24(!) hour uninterrupted prayer, so likely if slain gone for the rest of the adventure)So? A well-selected companion is nearly as strong as another PC. If a PC dies, they're gone for the rest of the adventure, too, barring some way to bring them back (which works on the companion as well.)


limited item useWhen they're in their natural form, it's far, far, less limited than, say, a Monk (or, for practical purposes, a typical wizard)... and Wild Shape doesn't need equipment.


limited DEX (in high-level play)&limited communication power in wildshapeThis is your big answer to Wild Shape? Limited dex and communication power? Telepathic Bond. Permanency it if you want. Shapes that generally have massive natural AC and will be dishing out damage overwhelmingly faster than the druid will be taking it.


ex-druid section (including all abilities are gone once you teach language to someone else - dominate monster anyone? Absurd bluff check to pass as a druid acolythe is also enough, so a bard with glibness can be a nuisance for any druid). That should do it.Teaching someone a language takes more time than dominate monster grants. A bluff won't work on a PC for something like this--PCs are always in control of their actions unless controlled completely by something such as Dominate Monster, so a player is quite within their rights to determine entirely on their own whether they'd teach druidic to a strange person who popped up out of nowhere claiming to be an acolyte and asking to be taught sacred druid secrets out-of-process while they're in the middle of an adventure. Oh, and even if a druid decides, for RP purposes, that they want to have their druid fall for this? Atonement. Poof, problem gone... it wouldn't even cost XP.

[Bassetking]

*Snip*

The monk came before that stuff, splat book material is part of the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game, OF COURSE splat book stuff is going to be able to make a better 'monk' character.
*Snip*

And yet, No Splat-book has yet produced a better wizard, cleric, or druid, even throughout the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game...

[Viscount Einstrauss]

If they ever produced a more powerful version of any of those, I would ban it outright. It would be the first complete class ban I've ever made, in fact. Because making more powerful classes then the most powerful and unbalanced classes in the game is quite possibly the worst thing any splat book could ever do.

[Indon]

Well, if I wanted to boost the monk, one thing I might do is add a feature which allows the monk to treat their unarmed strike as a normal or 2-handed weapon, rather than just a light weapon. They'd still have the option of treating their unarmed attack as light, but they wouldn't neccessarily do it.

That one change alone helps the monk with damage (increasing the viability of the strength-based monk immeasurably), disarming (as they can get the +4 2-handed bonus and still take the item being disarmed as part of their disarm action, and sundering (Again, +4 on attack rolls).

I'd probably have it mature a little bit more slowly than flurry, allowing the monk to treat his unarmed attack as a 1-handed weapon anytime at level 7, and 2-handed at level 14 (plus both are relatively slow levels for the monk).

Also, can't an Artificer access any divine spell like, ever, or somesuch?

[Skjaldbakka]

And yet, No Splat-book has yet produced a better wizard, cleric, or druid, even throughout the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game...

In terms of power, no. But the problem with cleric/druid/wizard is that they are overpowered. There have been plenty of weaker version of those classes (beguiler, warmage, favored soul, etc.). Which in terms of game balance are better versions.

But that doesn't matter, because full casters are more capable than fighters. Comparing monk to druid(or cleric) does not add to this argument. 3/4 BAB + full casting is overpowered.

This is not a fighter vs. caster thread, it is a monk/party role thread.

[Zincorium]

In terms of power, no. But the problem with cleric/druid/wizard is that they are overpowered. There have been plenty of weaker version of those classes (beguiler, warmage, favored soul, etc.). Which in terms of game balance are better versions.

But that doesn't matter, because full casters are more capable than fighters. Comparing monk to druid(or cleric) does not add to this argument. 3/4 BAB + full casting is overpowered.

This is not a fighter vs. caster thread, it is a monk/party role thread.

A claim was made that no other class in core could do whatever it is that you see a monk doing.

This was disproven by pointing out druids and the various ways they can do the same thing as monks, and often better.

Even rangers come really really close, with some variants being equal at what a monk does. I'd have a really hard time believing that a monk can do what a ranger does anywhere near as well as a ranger does.

So while it's not a caster vs. noncaster thread, you still need to keep casters in mind when making blanket statements.

And really, I still haven't gotten a useful response to what necessary role a monk fills. A good 5th party member? Compared to what, exactly? Most parties can always use another tank (which the monk isn't), skillmonkey (which the monk also isn't), caster (Um, yeah the monk can't even partially fill that one), and healer (there is a definite pattern occurring) more than they need a generalist. While this need does vary from party to party, it's very rare that everyone gets together and says 'oh, we already have a all those roles, let's get a monk instead!'.

[Diamondeye]

While this need does vary from party to party, it's very rare that everyone gets together and says 'oh, we already have a all those roles, let's get a monk instead!'.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it's very rare that everyone gets together and says "lets get a <insert class here>" outside of MMORPGs. In any game I've ever seen, players play what they want, and party roles are important only insofar as people are willing to play one of the main roles. If no one wants to play a healer, for example, there's not going to be a healer (which is a major pain for the DM, but that's neither here nor there).

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I see a little of both, actually. But it's in a more bizarre form.

"Kay, I'm gonna be a melee'r."
"I wanna be an arcane caster."
"I was thinking skill monkey."
"So, no one wants to be a healer?"
"No."
"Nope."
"Hey, DM? Can we invite someone else over for the sole purpose of being a healer?"
"Who'd you have in mind?"
"I dunno. Anyone got any friends that like to play healers?"
"I do."
"Cool. That guy, then."

[NullAshton]

For the monk's MAD problem, why not simply 'choose' a specific role to play? If you want to be ultimate AC guy, put all of your points in dexterity and wisdom, and get the weapon finesse feat. For damage, wisdom and strength. Tank? Wisdom and constitution(or split between constitution and dexterity). All around fighter character? Instead of having 18 in wisdom, have 14 in constitution dexterity and strength, with the rest going to wisdom.

[Indon]

I see a little of both, actually. But it's in a more bizarre form.

"Kay, I'm gonna be a melee'r."
"I wanna be an arcane caster."
"I was thinking skill monkey."
"So, no one wants to be a healer?"
"No."
"Nope."
"Hey, DM? Can we invite someone else over for the sole purpose of being a healer?"
"Who'd you have in mind?"
"I dunno. Anyone got any friends that like to play healers?"
"I do."
"Cool. That guy, then."

Man, you guys are pragmatic in comparison to my group.

"I want to cause people's heads to explode like overripe melons!"
"I want to be a sneaky-type. I guess I'll be group skill-monkey."
"I haven't played a Wizard in a while. I'll do that."
"So, no healer?"

And from here, you get either something like...

"Well, we better not be taking any damage, huh?"

Or

"Hey, let's all be Warforged!"

...or maybe you just have more friends... our only saving grace is that generally someone wants to be a class with healing spells anyway.

Edit: But as far as a monk can go, someone who chooses a monk can specialize themselves into a few different roles, depending on what they see the party lacks. Need a skill monkey? Human, Able Learner, High Int (and items that aid saves for the traps he can't get). Need a scout/archer? Elf, high dex and wisdom (or wisdom and strength with Zen Archery), capitalize on your speed and accept the fact that you aren't getting Speak With junk until you are level 17 (when you get it permanently, and with everything, go figure). Need a fighter? Pump that strength, pick a large race (or Goliath? Do they count for most unarmed fighting-type stuff?), get Simple Weapon Proficiency and pick up gauntlets.

Can a class specialized towards that one thing do the same, and perhaps a little better? Probably. Do you need to play one? Not if you don't want to.

[Laurellien]

A monk is like a more useless bard in that it is a jack of all trades, competent at none and sucktastic at everything other than surviving, where even then it isn't as good as a focused surviver. If you specialise then you can perform a role nearly as well as an incompetent member of another class. They can be fun to play, I freely admit to having monk as my 2nd most played class, but it gets boring after a while, very boring. The only fun thing I could do at higher levels was use vast amounts of loot to mimic other classes (such as with a stone of earth elemental summoning and a censer of air elemental summoning. Boy that was one fun way of ending a boss fight).

[greenknight]

But as far as a monk can go, someone who chooses a monk can specialize themselves into a few different roles, depending on what they see the party lacks.

That's true of a few classes, and they can usually do the "generalist" role better. Druids and Rogues come to mind immediately. And Druids have Wild Shape, an Animal Companion and a boatload of spells at higher levels, while Rogues have a good range of skills, the skill points to use them, sneak attack and trapfinding. The Monk has little to really recommend it except for the fact that it can work unarmed and unarmored, which is also true of the Druid.

[Dhavaer]

I'll say this for monks: They're great to play in Neverwinter Night, if you get that Robe of Haste. Run like the wind, little monk! Run! :smallbiggrin:

[NullAshton]

That's true of a few classes, and they can usually do the "generalist" role better. Druids and Rogues come to mind immediately. And Druids have Wild Shape, an Animal Companion and a boatload of spells at higher levels, while Rogues have a good range of skills, the skill points to use them, sneak attack and trapfinding. The Monk has little to really recommend it except for the fact that it can work unarmed and unarmored, which is also true of the Druid.

Can druids kick butt with the exact same fluff that monks can kick butt with? No.

Monks are cooler than druids.

[Dhavaer]

Can druids kick butt with the exact same fluff that monks can kick butt with?

Monk's Belt + Superior Unarmed Strike.

[NullAshton]

Monk's Belt + Superior Unarmed Strike.

But druids are stupid nature lovers. Monks are urban ninjas.

[Dhavaer]

But druids are stupid nature lovers. Monks are urban ninjas.

Urban Druid + Monk's Belt + Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Laurellien]

But druids are stupid nature lovers. Monks are urban ninjas.

You sir are being a troll.

Druids are an extremely flavourful class, albeit one that doesn't really get in touch with dark, savage roots of the class. Urban ninja may sound cool, but this thread is about in game power, in which case monks clearly lose out (although I admit that monks are cool). Just remember that the coolness or lack thereof of any class is purely dependent on the player.

[Aquillion]

And yet, No Splat-book has yet produced a better wizard, cleric, or druid, even throughout the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game...To be fair, just about every splatbook ever printed that has spells or animals in it has produced a better wizard, cleric, or druid.

[JaronK]

And yet, No Splat-book has yet produced a better wizard, cleric, or druid, even throughout the ongoing evolution and improvement of the game...

Except for the Archivist, which is indeed arguably a better Wizard.

JaronK

[Fourth Tempter]

Except for the Archivist, which is indeed arguably a better Wizard.

JaronK

Only if you treat one like nachos.

[Bassetking]

Only if you treat one like nachos.

Fourth Tempter, I love you, and your elegant chapeau. The Archivist as Nachos metaphor combines the beefy flavor of Heroes of Horror, the Cheesy goodness of Clerics, the zesty kick of druid spells, and the creamy tang of ranger and paladin buffs. Well crafted, sir.

[AtomicKitKat]

Well, if I wanted to boost the monk, one thing I might do is add a feature which allows the monk to treat their unarmed strike as a normal or 2-handed weapon, rather than just a light weapon. They'd still have the option of treating their unarmed attack as light, but they wouldn't neccessarily do it.

It's already treated as a one-handed weapon for damage purposes.:smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

Edit: But as far as a monk can go, someone who chooses a monk can specialize themselves into a few different roles, depending on what they see the party lacks.Monk is actually one of the core classes that this is least true for--in fact, monk is definitely the least flexible core class overall.

In terms of options for customization, any spellcasting class gets spell selections and a range of potential new feats related to spellcasting. Rogues get more skill points and class skills than any other class, plus special ability choices. Fighters get bonus feats. Even partial casters get to select spells. All other melee types get broader weapon and armor selections than the monk.

A Monk gets... the second-lowest possible skill points, with critically low int (they need almost everything but int), and three either-or feat choices. That's it. Most of the options for monks you suggested rely heavily on race, to the exclusion of monk abilities or flavor, and get no benefit from being a monk. Just about everything you suggested could be done strictly better by a fighter, rogue, ranger, or bard with some magic items to boost speed. (If speed is actually an issue, which it isn't for most of those roles.)

Now, if you want to ignore that and make your monk spellcaster who uses UMD cross-class for everything, fine, be my guest. But we're talking about mechanics here, and mechanically, the monk is not versatile at all. Most of their abilities depend on extremely restrictive conditions, and operate only under limited conditions.

[Fourth Tempter]

Fourth Tempter, I love you, and your elegant chapeau. The Archivist as Nachos metaphor combines the beefy flavor of Heroes of Horror, the Cheesy goodness of Clerics, the zesty kick of druid spells, and the creamy tang of ranger and paladin buffs. Well crafted, sir.

Why, thank you. I was aiming more for the "...if you cover them in cheese" aspect, but I suppose that works as well.

[Zincorium]

Archivists are decent when simply choosing divine spells from a list of ones that would be reasonably scribed down. When you get into domain spells and ranger/paladin specific ones, it gets much harder to see why the DM would put them into the world.

When you get into the supercheese that is a warlock scribing all spells known to mankind (artificers are barred from making ones the archivist could use, last I checked), and the archivist can convince the warlock to actually do so, then you run into the problem of them having all spells. Which is not as bad as most charop builds, but it's certainly not something the designers would have thought of.

[NullAshton]

You sir are being a troll.

Druids are an extremely flavourful class, albeit one that doesn't really get in touch with dark, savage roots of the class. Urban ninja may sound cool, but this thread is about in game power, in which case monks clearly lose out (although I admit that monks are cool). Just remember that the coolness or lack thereof of any class is purely dependent on the player.

It's still not the same as a monk, which is the point that I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that the druid isn't flavorful, but I'm asking... what if someone doesn't want to play as a druid, because a druid doesn't fit in with what they want their character to be like?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Archivists are decent when simply choosing divine spells from a list of ones that would be reasonably scribed down. When you get into domain spells and ranger/paladin specific ones, it gets much harder to see why the DM would put them into the world.
Why would domain spells be unlikely to be scribed?

Okay, sure, there are certain domains—like maybe War and Strength—that are unlikely to attract the intellectual sort of priest that would scribe scrolls. But then there are other domains—like Knowledge and Magic—that would do just the opposite. Finally, there are all the other domains that attract all sorts of cleric types, and the number of scrolls coming from there matches the proportion of scroll-scribing clerics in general.

In any case, a cleric that has Scribe Scroll certainly has motivation to scribe any domain spell that is not on the cleric list or even on the cleric list at a different spell level. It's one of the few ways such a cleric can benefit from that particular spell more than once per day.

[Callix]

You want a combo? Take Power Attack and Improved Sunder, and Improved Trip as a bonus. Charge. Stun (also disarm). Full attack including trip. Take -4 attack for +4 damage (prone bonuses). Deliver five of these attacks in a round. They get up. Attack of opportunity. Oh, and 2d10 damage. Seconds anyone? How about I break your weapon, ignoring hardness? Or armor?

The point is, monks are underpowered early, but can become seriously broken if well-optimized. They may not look like combat beasts, but sacrifice Int and Cha for Str and they are powerful. Oh, and while I'm at it, unkillable. Combat? Insane AC. Spells? SR, Imp. Evasion and three good saves (only class). They can't do everything, because that would be unbalanced. But they are *not* weak.

[greenknight]

Monks are cooler than druids.

Yeah, but that's only because they insist on wearing those silly robes even in the dead of winter....


what if someone doesn't want to play as a druid, because a druid doesn't fit in with what they want their character to be like?

Then they either play one of the other "power" classes, or accept that the character they play might be outclassed compared to the others. No one is saying you must play a Druid instead of a Monk, but they are saying that in most cases, a Druid (or Rogue or Ranger, for some character concepts) is going to be more effective.


You want a combo? Take Power Attack and Improved Sunder, and Improved Trip as a bonus. Charge. Stun (also disarm). Full attack including trip. Take -4 attack for +4 damage (prone bonuses). Deliver five of these attacks in a round. They get up. Attack of opportunity. Oh, and 2d10 damage. Seconds anyone? How about I break your weapon, ignoring hardness? Or armor?

Most of this has already been covered already on this thread. If it's a Strength / power based Monk, you're not concentrating on Dexterity or Wisdom, so you're giving up that insane AC you mentioned. Stun's not likely to work against most foes with a good Fort save (and that's most of them at the higher levels). Nor is trip, unless you have some means of becoming larger. And you've still got the problem of overcoming DR, unless it's magic, adamantine and/or lawful. Also, while you can sunder a weapon or shield, in 3.5e you can't sunder armor.

But compare that to what a Druid can do, or even a Fighter with a two handed power attack. That 2d10 damage suddenly doesn't look too good.

[Laurellien]

It's still not the same as a monk, which is the point that I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that the druid isn't flavorful, but I'm asking... what if someone doesn't want to play as a druid, because a druid doesn't fit in with what they want their character to be like?

Then they don't play it. What you were actually saying was "Druids are stupid nature lovers" which is saying that nobody in their right mind would play a druid because they have poor background and are unflavourful. In that respect you are worng, very, very wrong.

[Skjaldbakka]

The monk is the only class that can melee with a +5 shocking burst, frosting burst, flaming burst, thundering, wounding weapon. All traits that are really good with a large number of attacks. You can amulet of mighty fists for a +5 enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks, and then wear a +1 guantlet with lots of weapon attributes. The only other character that can stack attributes this way is an archer, who is expending magic arrows to do so (unless they are an arcane archer, in which case they have more attributes on arrows while maintaining a +5 enhancement bonus).

EDIT- OK, a fighter could do this, but would have to settle for 1d3 base weapon damage, rather than 2d10.

[Laurellien]

Or he could buy a great sword with similar abilities? and then take shock trooper, leap attack, power attack and frenzied berserker levels to do in one attack what a monk would do in one encounter.

Add to that a gauntlet is a simple weapon and so practically anybody can use it.

And the monk has 3/4 BAB etc...

And you're basing your assumptions of the power level of a class on a magic item anybody can use.

And... you get the point.

[Skjaldbakka]

I counter that with the fact that a greatsword can't have an effective +14 weapon enchantment.

Also, the monk has base 2d10 damage with that gauntlet, everyone else has base 1d3.

The monk can have a better magic weapon than anyone else.

And that's just core. Someone mentioned an item from a sourcebook that lets you enchant your unarmed strikes as a weapon, which would allow you to have an additional 9 weapon enhancements on your unarmed strikes.

[Laurellien]

I counter that with the greater magic weapon spell, or a wand/scroll thereof.

Touché!

[Skjaldbakka]

Also works on a monk's unarmed strikes.

[Laurellien]

But it doesn't stack with the amulet of mighty fists as both provide enhancement bonuses.

[Skjaldbakka]

Your point being? A fighter can avoid buying a +5 weapon enchantment by using relying on the cleric or wizard's greater magic weapon spell. The monk can avoid wearing a amulet of mighty fists the same way.

Also, your example fighter is incredibly optimized for dealing with this monk build, considering this monk build is just a magic item selection.


Also, energy damage and con damage and critical hit effects are more valuable the more times you can attack with them in a round.


-Addendum:
People keep saying that you can't wear an amulet of might fists with a periapt of wisdom. You can, you just have to combine them into the same amulet, which, by RAW- doesn't cost any extra gold.

[Laurellien]

Flurry gets you one more attack. The fighter has frenzy and pounce (thanks to a barbarian substitution level from complete munchkin I mean champion).

[Skjaldbakka]

Two extra attacks, and I'm not using any sourcebooks.

[Laurellien]

That doesn't make you any better.

Wizard: - polymorph into a hydra. How many attacks did you say you had?
Archivist: - Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Haste.

Also bear in mind that the fighter is hitting for astronomical amounts of damage, even if you just give him a big stick.

[Jayabalard]

Wizard: - polymorph into a hydra. How many attacks did you say you had?resorting to polymorph with all it's cheesy goodness doesn't really strengthen your argument...

[Laurellien]

Yeah, it was just an example though to try and stop those who can't see the underpowered nature of the monk.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

resorting to polymorph with all it's cheesy goodness doesn't really strengthen your argument...
When arguing that core is no more balanced than other material, mentioning polymorph usually counts for something. It was directed at the "I'm not using any sourcebooks" line, after all.

[Skjaldbakka]

1st- Polymorph would benefit us both equally (fighter v. monk). Unless the fighter is specialized in fighting while polymorphed. EDIT- actually, I can probably still flurry, and have a high movement rate. The hydra get's retarded attacks as a standard action, IIRC.

2nd. Archivist- NOT CORE.


And what astronomical damage?

The fighter has 5 more BAB, and probably five higher strength mod.

With a two-handed weapon, and assuming we are attacking at the same to-hit bonus, thats . . . 35 more damage(with specs, and focus).

That gives him one attack at his best bonus (which matches mine, because he power attacked down to my attack bonus).

I have 3. Even if he matches my energy enchantments, I am still getting 2 more hits than him-
which means I am dealing 6d6 more energy more than him, and two more con damage, and on a crit I deal +3d10+1d8 (avg. +21, less than the +35, but close) energy damage.

EDIT- I'm not saying core is more balanced, I'm saying that when monk came out, the other improvements weren't there to compare it to. Therefore, splatbook material is going to make everyone more powerful. Including the monk (now called swordsage).

EDIT- Also, a monk SHOULD NOT match a dedicated power attack fighter's damage. He has other stuff to make up for his lower, but not insignificant, damage. Like save-or-get-ginsued-by-the-rogue (otherwise known as Stunning Fist- which is most effective when used by a monk).

[Laurellien]

Can we specify the levels involved here? this is starting to get a little confusing. 1st. why one attack?

Also, fighter is a weak class too. I'm just backing up my point about monks (jack of all trades, sucktastic at them too).

[Skjaldbakka]

The one attack thing has been gone over before. The fighter gets one attack at his highest bonus. His highest bonus is equal to the monk's because he Power Attacks away the rest of it. The monk gets three attacks at HIS highest bonus, due to flurry. The fighter has interatives, but they are at the same bonus as the monk's, and the odds of him hitting with his last attack are approx. 5% when power attacking like that.


Sucktastic at them! That was good damage up there! And not spending any feats to get them, just gold! I still have high AC (again, not THE HIGHEST, but still HIGH, AC), all around good saves, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, SR.

I am usually an advocate of Bard, but monk is not in that category (can be defended, but sucks).

Bard is a sub-par healer, fighter, and skill monkey.

Monk is just a hair less good fighter and a sub-par skill monkey (I agree it needs more skill points). With abundant step and sun-school, a monk can also be a tactical nuke, via necklace of fireballs and flaming guantlets +evasion.

EDIT- I've also heard that rangers suck, paladins suck, barbarians are sub-optimal. Pretty much the only class that people don't complain much about are rogues. The caster are called over-powered, the fighters(role, not class) ,under-powered.

[Indon]

1st- Polymorph would benefit us both equally (fighter v. monk). Unless the fighter is specialized in fighting while polymorphed. EDIT- actually, I can probably still flurry, and have a high movement rate. The hydra get's retarded attacks as a standard action, IIRC.


Not true. When polymorphed, a monk can use their unarmed strike damage instead of a creature's natural attack damage, when it is higher. Furthermore, their unarmed strike damage is as a monk of that size; I do believe Hydras are Huge?

I'm sure there are polymorphable creatures that have strong enough natural attacks to nullify that monkly advantage; the Hydra is not among them.

[endersdouble]

Not true. When polymorphed, a monk can use their unarmed strike damage instead of a creature's natural attack damage, when it is higher. Furthermore, their unarmed strike damage is as a monk of that size; I do believe Hydras are Huge?

I'm sure there are polymorphable creatures that have strong enough natural attacks to nullify that monkly advantage; the Hydra is not among them.
Wrong. The Hydra is one, because it gets a lot of attacks. Yes, you do Huge monk damage with unarmed strike--but you don't get one for each head, you get your normal amount. # of attacks often can make it /very/ superior via a number of methods.

Oh, and in fact, you can use both (cool trick, if you can afford the -5 secondary penalty.)

[Quietus]

Wrong. The Hydra is one, because it gets a lot of attacks. Yes, you do Huge monk damage with unarmed strike--but you don't get one for each head, you get your normal amount. # of attacks often can make it /very/ superior via a number of methods.

Oh, and in fact, you can use both (cool trick, if you can afford the -5 secondary penalty.)

Just to throw a little clarity into this - if you're polymorphed into a form that has a bunch of secondary attacks (say, a Hydra), you can use your normal monk attack sequence as unarmed strikes, for a create of the size that you are now. And then you can follow up with all of your natural attacks as secondary attacks, at your highest attack bonus-5.

So a level 20 monk polymorphed into a hydra would have their normal 15/15/15/10/5 from the flurry, PLUS an additional attack at 10 base for each head.

[Skjaldbakka]

This discussion of polymorphing for extra attacks reminds me of a geomancer I once built- look at me! I have 13 attacks all originating from my head in a full attack! (headbutt/gore/horn/snakex8/quickened breath weapon/bite etc.)

completely off-topic, but amusing.

[Indon]

So a level 20 monk polymorphed into a hydra would have their normal 15/15/15/10/5 from the flurry, PLUS an additional attack at 10 base for each head.

I'm pretty sure that puts the Monk ahead on damage even with the Hydra, considering Hydra damage per-head is pretty low, but I guess the difference probably isn't as much as I made it out to be.

[JaronK]

Right. On a rogue, however, that Hydra is absolutely incredible, for obvious reasons. Rogues dot he Hydra thing a lot better than Monks.

JaronK

[Skjaldbakka]

Polymorph is disgusting. Point established.

Personally, if my PCs pulled something like this, there would be repercussions. Villains would start using it too.

But the brokenness of polymorph has already been beaten to death. It's not even going to make it into 4th edition. Probably in favor of specific "I turn into X" spells.

[Indon]

Right. On a rogue, however, that Hydra is absolutely incredible, for obvious reasons. Rogues dot he Hydra thing a lot better than Monks.

JaronK

But monks still do it better than fighters. In general, rogues get the most from forms that get tons of attacks, monks get the most from forms that are as big as they can get (for monk damage size upgrades, as well as grappling leading to size-upgraded monk damage), and I guess fighters would get the most from humanoid forms and such that aren't all that much different.

[Flawless]

-Addendum:
People keep saying that you can't wear an amulet of might fists with a periapt of wisdom. You can, you just have to combine them into the same amulet, which, by RAW- doesn't cost any extra gold.


Giving an item an additional effect makes the addidional effect 1.5 times more expansive than normal. So it does cost extra money - by RAW.

[Skjaldbakka]

Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost.

Straight from the SRD's mouth.

You actually get a cost break if the abilities are similar (which weapon enhancement and stat enhancement are not).


For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.

[Jasdoif]

-Addendum:
People keep saying that you can't wear an amulet of might fists with a periapt of wisdom. You can, you just have to combine them into the same amulet, which, by RAW- doesn't cost any extra gold.One, magic item guidelines are guidelines, not rules, and as such are not RAW.

Two,
Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.An amulet takes up space on the body.

[Rincewind]

Monk is not weak.

[endersdouble]

Monk is not weak.
...thanks, care to provide some evidence?

[Skjaldbakka]

:smalleek: my bad.

You could still put a wisdom boost on the headslot, according to the body slot affinities table.

And as to the guidelines aren't rules bit. The entire book is nothing but guidelines. Therefore there is no RAW.

The magic item creation guidelines are a description of exactly how to calculate how to do something. That something is magic item creation. Which there are feats for. Which makes them rules for using feats. Which makes them RAW.

[Indon]

:smalleek: my bad.

You could still put a wisdom boost on the headslot, according to the body slot affinities table.

And as to the guidelines aren't rules bit. The entire book is nothing but guidelines. Therefore there is no RAW.

The magic item creation guidelines are a description of exactly how to calculate how to do something. That something is magic item creation. Which there are feats for. Which makes them rules for using feats. Which makes them RAW.

Well, the point is, the DM is supposed to okay all custom magic item designs. The area is flagged as being 'guidelines' so that it recieves more DM attention and things like Use-activated Rings of True Strike are avoided.

But, yeah, for the most part the custom magic item pricing guidelines are solid.

[Jasdoif]

And as to the guidelines aren't rules bit. The entire book is nothing but guidelines. Therefore there is no RAW.

The magic item creation guidelines are a description of exactly how to calculate how to do something. That something is magic item creation. Which there are feats for. Which makes them rules for using feats. Which makes them RAW.I don't think you're quite following what I'm saying.


Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.The listed formulas are not the precise calculated cost behind every magic item. While magic armor, potions, scrolls, wands and weapons do have explicit rules that determine the cost of unlisted items; rings, rods and wondrous items do not. Instead they have guidelines to provide a starting point to determine the cost of such custom items. The rules state the DM needs to determine the actual worth of the item, and not rely solely on the estimated value given by the formulas.

As for the feats...the items listed in the DMG list both market price and creation costs. Creation cost is for use by those characters with the relevant feat.

[Skjaldbakka]

Lets not go on a tangent here. The point I'm trying to make here is that you can get items made to conserve magic item slots. In fact, there is an extra cost for doing so. However, a monk can still deal decent damage without doing this thing, so it is a moot point.

[Emperor Tippy]

But, yeah, for the most part the custom magic item pricing guidelines are solid.

HAHAHA

No they are not. Those things suck. Half the time they allow stuff that is far to broken and the other half of the time they are far to expensive.

And MIC says to basically ignore the things anyways.

[Roderick_BR]

I think that gauntlets counts as weapons, so a monk doesn't get the enhanced damage.
Anyway, I was thinkering with some ideas and suggestions, and I had some ideas to improve the monk without making overpowered or breaking his flavor.
I'll post them in the HouseBrew board tonight.

[Indon]

I think that gauntlets counts as weapons, so a monk doesn't get the enhanced damage.


Despite being weapons, gauntlets explicitly note that they count as unarmed attacks in every sense except that they deal lethal damage by default.

It's one of those have-cake-eat-cake things.

[Skjaldbakka]

Indeed, this has in fact been hashed over more than a few times in this thread.

[Karma Guard]

So. Um. I think the consensus is that a Monk takes a whole lot of work to make it equal to the other classes, even the Fighter. And it is, yes, underpowered.

So how do we fix it?

First, we need to figure out what a Monk's job is. Fighters fight, Wizards and Sorcs cast the flashy spells, Rogues...sneak, Clerics have magic bandaids and buffs.

Fluffwise, to me, Monks are supposed to be the unarmed guy, the guy who doesn't need any of your stuff to kick behind while also chewing gum. B| The Facepuncher, the guy who is never without a weapon, even when he's chained upside down to a wall. Oh yeah, he's also a guy who can drink arsenic without being harmed. And he can do silly martial arts tricks.

Mechanically, again, to me, Monks are supposed to need little equipment or support. They're supposed to be awesome at Tripping/Disarming/Grappling, especially grappling. Apparently, they're also supposed to be really good at beating up wizards. They do come with free SR and grappling is pretty good against a wizard. If you can catch him :V

The class supports those ideas, but it fails at making those ideas work well. You have to spend far much more money on a Monk's items to just keep in the same bracket as a Fighter's damage or even just hitting the other guy. You're stuck with abilities that just aren't scaling very well. Sure you can move eleventy billion feet a round, but then you're stuck at 3/4 BAB with poor weapons. Sure you have good unarmed damage, but it's stuck as, at best, Lawful Admantine Magic weapons, when everyone else's toting around +5 whatever weapons. Sure, you have Flurry, which is cool, but you can't move and do it without blowing at least two feats; you can't use your signature ability without blowing a turn on just getting close. Your Save or Die ability is 1/week, and you get it when Wizards are slinging them around like there's no tomorrow. You can do the 'let's go ethereal :D' trick rounds/day, but you can only Dimension door 1/day. You do have a neat little capstone ability, though. I'll give you that.

And then there's the insult that you can just blow some cash and get a Monk's Belt and play being a monk. No need to bother spending levels on the class.

I guess what I'm asking is, what do you want to do about it? How do you 'fix' the Monk's problems?

[Skjaldbakka]

What consensus? And what lot of work? I have to buy some magic items in order to deal good damage. No build work involved AT ALL. And we're the comparing the monk to a fighter with a greatsword. The only thing the monk NEEDS is more skill points per level, and maybe a scaling competence bonus to jump, balance, tumble, and climb.


And why do you think the monk has to match the greatsword fighter's damage anyway? The monk has stunning fist, more times a day and with a higher DC than other classes, and has the movement to put that stunning fist on the protected targets in the back ranks of the enemy. Enemy rogue/assassin or shadowdancer with hide in plain sight- readied action to partial charge and stunning fist- if they used sneak attack, I can partial charge for sure, and then they are probably stunned. Wizard in the back ranks- tumble and high movement rate will get me there in one turn, and stunning fist. Wizard in the freakin' air- with sun school and abundant step, I can get up there and initiate a grapple, and then - stunning fist.

Also, once you get into sourcebooks, you have other cool things you can do with stunning fist 'uses'- extra damage, paralysis, strength penalties, etc.


Also, a monk can get just as good or better magic weapons than anyone else, via magic gauntlets.

[Laurellien]

Aren;t gauntlets necessarily parts of armour though?

[Jayabalard]

So. Um. I think the consensus is that a Monk takes a whole lot of work to make it equal to the other classes, even the Fighter.I don't really see much of a consensus...

[Skjaldbakka]

Gauntlet 2 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 1 lb. Bludgeoning

Stats for gauntlet.


This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.


EDIT-

the point was conceded that the monk is not underpowered the moment advocates of the monk's weakness had to start comparing him to the druid to maintain superiority.

QFT

[Indon]

So. Um. I think the consensus is that a Monk takes a whole lot of work to make it equal to the other classes, even the Fighter. And it is, yes, underpowered.


A monk can be made a better scout and skillmonkey than a fighter, a better fighter or scout than a rogue, or a better fighter (in melee, anyway) and equal skillmonkey to the ranger.

No, the monk can not outfight the fighter, outskillmonkey the rogue, or (barely) outscout the ranger. Do you need to beat a specialized class at its' specialty to be on par?

I think the biggest problem is assuming that, to not be 'underpowered', you need to be the absolute best at something, regardless of how good you are at doing other things. This is the same thing that lead people to think the Bard is underpowered; they cast (and buff), but not as good as a wizard. They do skills, but not as good as a rogue. They can do combat, but not as good as a fighter. They can do diplomancy, but so can anyone with diplomacy as a class skill.

Does this mean bards suck and are underpowered? No. As far as I'm concerned, the point was conceded that the monk is not underpowered the moment advocates of the monk's weakness had to start comparing him to the druid to maintain superiority.

[Orzel]

I though that the main consesus is that the Monk rarely fills a party role. The monk can only barely replace a true weapons guy or skill monkey when specialized. You'll still need a skill monkey and a weapons guy to balance your party when you recruit a monk.

[Skjaldbakka]

Monk can't be a skill guy, but a monk can be the party beat-stick, if the party doesn't have a greatsword wielding lunkhead to outshine him. The monk can deal Enough damage and have a Good Enough AC to tank. It's just more likely the cleric and rogue will get to have some fun during a fight as well.

Also, the monk is the best class to fill the role of "we need to take out that ___ over there!"

[JaronK]

Also, the monk is the best class to fill the role of "we need to take out that ___ over there!"


No, that's the Wizard. Or the Sorcerer. Or someone else that can one shot TKO anything at range.

The monk is the best class for "we need someone to go over there and make lots of low damaging attacks!"

JaronK

[Skjaldbakka]

What low damage attacks? I've already established that a monk can deal good damage, nearly as good as a two-handed weapon wielding fighter. And the wizard over there is just as likely to have spell defenses as fighter defenses. And if there are enemies in the way, odds are they represent some of those fighter defenses.

EDIt- in case you forgot: 2d10+7+3d6+1con damage 3 times a round with good to-hit, twice a round with decreasing to hit. +5d10+1d8+7 on a crit. And that is without spending any feats to increase damage, or using any splat books. And without relying on spellcasters.

[endersdouble]

What low damage attacks? I've already established that a monk can deal good damage, nearly as good as a two-handed weapon wielding fighter. And the wizard over there is just as likely to have spell defenses as fighter defenses. And if there are enemies in the way, odds are they represent some of those fighter defenses.

EDIt- in case you forgot: 2d10+7+3d6+1con damage 3 times a round with good to-hit, twice a round with decreasing to hit. +5d10+1d8+7 on a crit. And that is without spending any feats to increase damage, or using any splat books. And without relying on spellcasters.
Can you quote the items/feats/build there? What level are we talking?

[JaronK]

What low damage attacks? I've already established that a monk can deal good damage, nearly as good as a two-handed weapon wielding fighter. And the wizard over there is just as likely to have spell defenses as fighter defenses. And if there are enemies in the way, odds are they represent some of those fighter defenses.

EDIt- in case you forgot: 2d10+7+3d6+1con damage 3 times a round with good to-hit, twice a round with decreasing to hit. +5d10+1d8+7 on a crit.

A two handed weapon Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker will be able to pounce, dealing +120 damage with every hit on the charge, before adding in the damage from his Greatsword or his strength (which is at least 14 higher than the monk from Rage + Frenzy, likely significantly more than that due to no MAD). On a crit, that all doubles.

And if it's a Wizard over there, the monk is unlikely to even be able to hit him (neither is the FB, but that's the breaks with melees).

Your average 29 damage per hit really doesn't cut it at level 20.

JaronK

[Orzel]

When you can't reach someone, you have the party's weapons guy shoot sleep arrows at it 'til it falls over.

I heart sleep arrows.

[Skjaldbakka]

endersdouble: just scroll up a bit, that is a summary of something I already typed up, may be a few pages back.

jaronK: first of all- I'm not adding in ANY feats, or ANY PrCs. Just base monk + some magic items. 29 damage a hit is fine at 20th level, it just isn't ridiculous overkill like that frenzied berskerer garbage. I have had a frenzied berserker in a party once. One ranger opponent and one frenzied berserker in the party, and the party was slaughtered by the Frenzied Berserker. The ranger wasn't touched.

Also- why can't the monk hit the wizard?