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View Full Version : What Deepblue thinks The Fighter needs... [class fix]



Deepblue706
2007-05-23, 07:57 PM
Okay, okay, before anyone gets pissed about ANOTHER person making a Fighter Fix, especially after so many people have given it a shot (some more successfully than others), let me apologize. I get the feeling that most people are going to think this version is pretty darn lame, but...hey, I can't let that stop me.

This version of the Fighter is purposely made to be simple, with many straightforward abilities, much drawn from what can be found in the core material. I know how much people around here loved BearsWithLasers' fix, and while I think he did a good job on it, the style of it seemed to exist outside the realm of other base classes, for me. I must note, however, I have not picked up the Tome of Battle, nor do I even have the PHB2 (But I will admit I have some vague knowledge of what is in both) - so it could be that I have an archaic point-of-view on all of this. Regardless, below is my shot at making a better Fighter class.

Fighter

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d10.

Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill points at 1st level
(2 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill points at each additional level
2 + Int modifier

THE FIGHTER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Disciplined Defense, Endurance

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Improved Armor Training

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Vigor (1/day)

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Diehard, Stand Strong

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Uncanny Dodge

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Vigor (2/day)

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Superior Armor Training

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Mettle

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Alacritous Ardor

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Vigor (3/day)

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Improved Uncanny Dodge

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Strength of Will

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Vigor (4/day)

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Heroic Effort

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Final Stand

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Uncanny Vigor (5/day)[/table]


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor (light, medium, and heavy) and shields (including tower shields).

Disciplined Defense
At first level, the fighter is a well-trained combatant, possessing not only offensive prowess, but skill enough to deflect blows using weapons with which he is familiar. The Fighter gains a +1 competence bonus to AC when armed with a melee weapon with which he has designated a non-proficiency weapon-specific feat (ie Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword), and Improved Critical (Longsword) would grant a total of +3 AC to a Fighter wielding a Longsword). The competence bonus granted is also granted to the fighter when resisting disarm attempts (But not when initiating disarm attempts, himself). Wielding multiple weapons does not cause bonuses to stack.

Endurance
At first level, the fighter gains the Endurance feat. If the fighter already possesses this feat, he may select a Fighter Bonus Feat that he qualifies for, instead.

Bonus Feats
At every even level, the fighter gains a bonus feat, which must be drawn from the feats noted as Fighter Bonus Feats.

Improved Armor Training
At third level, the fighter learns to move in his armor so well, that it becomes like a second skin to him. Maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 1, and armor check penalties are lessened by 1, for all armors he wears. The benefits of Improved Armor Training do not stack with those of using armors made of special material that also reduce armor check penalties, or improve the maximum dexterity bonus of that armor, such as Mithral.

Uncanny Vigor(Ex)
Starting at fourth level, the fighter begins to show how much his disciplined endurance training can pay off. 1/day (and an additional 1/day every four levels), the fighter may chose to make a Fortitude save in place of any other save.

Diehard
At fifth level, the fighter gains the Diehard feat. If the fighter already possesses this feat, he may select a Fighter Bonus Feat that he qualifies for, instead.

Stand Strong(Ex)
At fifth level, the fighter has the ability to display true stamina and toughness in times of need. As a Move Action, he may expend one daily use of his Uncanny Vigor ability to gain the benefits of the spell False Life, as if cast by a spellcaster of half his fighter level (round down). Additionally, this ability surpresses Fatigue upon the user, for the length of its duration.

Uncanny Dodge(Ex)
Starting at seventh level, a fighter can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. The fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Superior Armor Training
At ninth level, the fighter has maximized his efficiency with movement in armor, granting himself an additional +1 Maximum Dexterity bonus to all armors he wears, as well as an additional reduction of Armor Check Penalty by 1. All armors he wears are also treated as one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations: therefore, heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. The benefits of Superior Armor Training do not stack with those of using armors made of special material that also reduce armor check penalties, or improve the maximum dexterity bonus of that armor, such as Mithral.

Mettle(Ex)
From tenth level on, the fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Alacritous Ardor(Ex)
At eleventh level, a fighter has trained himself to a point where he can apply what energy he has to grant himself a surge of speed and celerity. As a Swift Action, a fighter may expend one of his daily uses of the Uncanny Vigor ability to grant himself the benefits of Haste, as if cast by a spellcaster of half his fighter level (round down). When this ability expires, the Fighter immediately becomes Fatigued.

Improved Uncanny Dodge(Ex)
At thirteenth level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Strength of Will(Ex)
At fifteenth level, a fighter can display his resolve more through his actions in battle. As a Swift Action, a fighter may expend one of his daily uses of the Uncanny Vigor ability to grant himself the benefits of Freedom of Movement, as if cast by a spellcaster of half his fighter level (round down).

Heroic Effort(Ex)
At seventeenth level, the fighter gains the ability to summon to himself all of his courage, which allows him to make a glorious effort at whatever the battle calls for. As a Swift Action, a fighter may expend one of his daily uses of the Uncanny Vigor ability to grant himself the benefits of Greater Heroism, as if cast by a spellcaster of half his fighter level (round down). When this ability expires, the Fighter immediately becomes Fatigued.

Final Stand(Ex)
At Nineteenth level, the fighter gains the ability to summon to himself all of his body's might at once, granting him abilities that no doubt transcend the normal mortal limit. As a Move Action, a fighter may expend all of his remaining daily uses of Uncanny Vigor(must be at least one) to grant himself the benefits of False Life, Haste, Freedom of Movement, and Greater Heroism, all as if each is cast by a spellcaster of equal level, which instead last a number of rounds equal to half the fighter's class level (round down) + his CON modifier. When this ability expires, the Fighter immediately becomes Exhausted.


Note: No benefits that emulate spells stack with the actual spells cast upon the Fighter, nor do any of the benefits stack with themselves, as they are considered the same source. However, greater versions of the spells cast will override the weaker benefits.
------------------------------------

That's all I have. I hope I don't get lynched.

Cybren
2007-05-24, 01:55 PM
That's a lot of things. Have you thought of giving them a bonus to never dying at all ever?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-24, 02:29 PM
Way to go with maintaining the respectful and collegiate atmosphere we like in here, Cybren.

Anyway, Deepblue, I like a lot of what you've done (even if I prefer my own fighter fix). The one thing I don't like is this part of the Improved Armor Training ability: "All armors he wears are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations".

Can Uncanny Vigor be combined with the benefits of Mettle and/or Evasion?

Vaniel
2007-05-24, 02:47 PM
I love it! It really shines! :D

Good job! :D

One thing I love is that you still get a lot of feats :D

Dryad
2007-05-24, 03:08 PM
Like most fighter fixes, I'd say it's extremely overpowered, so I agree with Cybren on that part, sorry to say.

I mean: Why the excessive need for powertrips? Give a fighter an enhanced will-save, and she's gay as drunk shrimp!
The entire fighter flavour is customizing. Hence the feats. It's also her strength. You can build a fighter around just about any concept. (I even chose fighter over monk, for one unarmed character. Just because it's cool, and allowed me to create my own unarmed style of play.)

So I say: Fighter is fun enough, and good enough, to play as it is. It's not as cheap as a monk, doesn't deal full-caster damage, but full casters need millions of goldpieces to cast their spells every day, and a fighter just needs a good weapon/armour/shield, items that lást.

I say: Keep the fighter as it is, but add one fighter bonus feat:
Lionhearted:
Prereq: Iron Will.
Benefit: The fighter receives a full will-save advancement through fighter class levels.

Done!
Sorry; just popped into my mind.. I will refrain from going even more off-topic.

Deepblue706
2007-05-24, 04:29 PM
@Osari: Don't like lowered armor category? Aw shucks...

I did that so Fighters could wear more than studded leather and make use of the evasion ability I threw in. Also, a commonly held opinion of the fighter seems to be that their speed severely cramps their style (which I would agree with) - so I didn't think it was all that bad. What if I bumped it up to a higher level?

Yes, Uncanny Vigor can be combined with those abilities, used any way you please. I tied in Alacritous Ardor with this specifically because of how powerful this ability is - having to share the uses with another class feature limits the abuse.

@Dryad: Extremely overpowered? Meh...I didn't think it's that bad...but maybe a few things could be toned down. Could you be specific about what's wrong?

Also, I don't understand the "cheap" comment about monks.

And, I don't think Willpower is the only problem with the Fighter...

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-24, 04:37 PM
Like most fighter fixes, I'd say it's extremely overpowered, so I agree with Cybren on that part, sorry to say.

I mean: Why the excessive need for powertrips? Give a fighter an enhanced will-save, and she's gay as drunk shrimp!
The entire fighter flavour is customizing. Hence the feats. It's also her strength. You can build a fighter around just about any concept. (I even chose fighter over monk, for one unarmed character. Just because it's cool, and allowed me to create my own unarmed style of play.)
The excessive need for power increases is because [i]the fighter is poorly designed, and finds it harder and harder to be effective from moderate to high levels.


So I say: Fighter is fun enough, and good enough, to play as it is. It's not as cheap as a monk, doesn't deal full-caster damage, but full casters need millions of goldpieces to cast their spells every day, and a fighter just needs a good weapon/armour/shield, items that lást.
This reveals a number of misconceptions. Monks are not "cheap". They are as or more equipment-reliant as any other class. Full spellcasters doing damage are the weakest kind, and not for worrying about; a fighter can easily outdamage an evoker--provided he gets in range to do his damage. The dangerous spellcasters are the ones that make intelligent use of "save-or-lose" and "battlefield control" spells. They also do not need "millions of gold pieces" to cast their spells, and I am unsure as to where you acquired that idea.
A fighter does not just need a weapon and armor. He needs, quite desperately, a way of compensating for his terrible Will save; a way of acquiring flight; a way of otherwise increasing his mobility, or he will rarely deliver a full attack at high levels; protections from the dozens of non-Will-save ways magic and monstrous abilities can strike at him; and more.


I say: Keep the fighter as it is, but add one fighter bonus feat:

You are welcome to do so, and in a game where the spellcasters are apparently charged millions for spellcasting and do nothing but throw Fireballs around that will be just fine.
The rest of us prefer to fix the fighter (or abandon him in favor of other, better-designed classes).

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-24, 04:45 PM
Deepblue--this is a decent effort. Mettle is an excellent idea; Evasion is not, I think, as that ability belongs to a different archetype (and is easily acquired with a small amount of multiclassing in any case).

I mislike Uncanny Vigor as it is based on the "per-day" model, when Wizards of the Coast has been shifting more and more towards "per-encounter" style abilities; "per day" does not fit very well with the fighter, either.

Additionally, this does litle to alleviate the mobility problems the Fighter suffers from, although it is hard to do so without a supernatural ability.

You may also wish to consider shifting the abilities so that they fill the higher levels better--at low levels, the fighter does not have a surfeit of problems.

Cybren
2007-05-24, 05:43 PM
i would dump evasion as most things that require a reflex save just result in you losing HP.
oh the horror, the fighter has such an under-abundance of that resource!

Deepblue706
2007-05-24, 05:50 PM
Deepblue--this is a decent effort. Mettle is an excellent idea; Evasion is not, I think, as that ability belongs to a different archetype (and is easily acquired with a small amount of multiclassing in any case).

I mislike Uncanny Vigor as it is based on the "per-day" model, when Wizards of the Coast has been shifting more and more towards "per-encounter" style abilities; "per day" does not fit very well with the fighter, either.

Additionally, this does litle to alleviate the mobility problems the Fighter suffers from, although it is hard to do so without a supernatural ability.

You may also wish to consider shifting the abilities so that they fill the higher levels better--at low levels, the fighter does not have a surfeit of problems.

Thanks for your comment - and I guess I do agree with a lot of what you've said...

Evasion is a bit "off", I suppose. I was thinking that a fighter should be all about defending himself properly, but thinking more about it, I guess he rarely practices "diving out of the way of a fireball", does he?

Uncanny Vigor is designed to be a strong ability - I think if I were to swing that over to the "per encounter" template, things'd get awry. But, perhaps if adjusted properly, it could be done.

However, I did specifically design it to be "per day" because many other base classes use the same model. A Barbarian has X rages per day, a Paladin has X smites per day, etc.

Yeah, coming up with ways to keep a fighter moving without something supernatural is pretty difficult. The haste ability granted is supposed to remedy that up to a point, and run parallel with the Barbarian's Rage. I figured that simply increasing movement would be too bland, but making this ability too good would make the Rage have less appeal. The Fighter already gets plenty of feats over the Barbarian - having a better "Power-Up" would give the latter few things that stand out. Thus, Improved Armor Training: it'd grant a fighter with medium armor better mobility naturally, so that they wouldn't have to entirely depend on things like haste to keep them going. But, I guess there's something missing here...

Again, I agree, fighters need most help at later levels. I'll try spreading things out a bit, and scaling up their power when they start to need it most.

Poppatomus
2007-05-24, 06:12 PM
I'm no kind of expert when it comes to stuff Like this, but I have a suggestion that more experienced person might be able to do something with.

What if, instead of giving the fighter a way to "power up" and break out of movement impairments/traps you gave him a way to be made stronger by them, or make other's stronger when he is trapped.

at low levels it might be something like:

1A.) Experienced Eye: As a full round action the fighter is able to provide a bonus of +x to an attack made by an ally within 50 ft. In order to gain sufficient understanding of the battlefield to use this ability the fighter can not move or attack on the round the ability is used or the following round

or

1B.) Master of His Surroundings: for every round spent in the same five foot square without making a melee or ranged attack the fighter gains +X to AC and any fort or ref save. This effect lasts 1d4 + half level rounds after the fighter moves.

or even, at slightly higher level.

1C.) unspent effort: Bonus feat. The fighter has learned to draw upon minute spill over in magical energies. When prevented from moving by a supernatural, spell-like, or magical effect the fighter may choose to do any of the following effects: Increase SR by X to a cap of Y; add 5 ft to his next move to a max of z; heal A per round; stack up to +2 of their bonus from either power attack or defense (can't think of the add to AC feat's name) to a max of B. With the exception of healing, these effects last until the turn when the fighter leaves the occupied square.

Deepblue706
2007-05-26, 12:41 PM
Some adjustments made, what to look for:

New abilities: Stand Strong and Strength of Will
Changed abilities: Improved Armor Training and Superior Armor Training
Things moved around: Various

Grod_The_Giant
2007-05-26, 01:12 PM
That's a lot of things. Have you thought of giving them a bonus to never dying at all ever?

good idea. Giving them the 'Hero Never Dies' feature would be cool (for those unfamiliar with it, the user can expend 1 smite/challenge/whatever (uncanny vigor, in this case) a round to keep going when he hits 0 health).

Ceiling009
2007-05-26, 01:23 PM
I do like Uncanny Vigor, it makes Fighters... just something a little more epic... Like in that dramatic way... but the per day thing is okay, I mean most of the other classes have it that way still, but if you were to make per encounter, maybe make Uncanny Vigor useable a number of time equal to thier con modifier per encounter it sort makes it that the fighter has three scores to worry about, str,con, and then dex maybe... I'd also still like the fighter to have 4+ int skill points...

Reinboom
2007-05-26, 01:35 PM
You use saves for more than just encounters however.

Dryad
2007-05-26, 11:05 PM
Well, in my experience: Monk is low-maintenance. She relies on her body and mind as both weapon and armour, mostly. And I've seen monks kick serious arse. Without any item whatsoever. (Vow of poverty)

As for Fighter needing fixing? Ever looked at a barbarian? Fighters are a lot better then barbs, because fighters are skilled. Fighters have tricks up their sleeves. Barbs have rage. A barb deals more damage when raging. Fighters simply take weapon specialization. Barbs have a higher hit die; fighters simply take improved toughness. The fighter feats allow for it. And fighters get a lót of feats. Feats that rule the battleground tactics, in my experience.
Like most classes, fighters receive a class special every other level. In the fighter's case, these are bonus feats. While other classes have a set kind of class specials, you can pick them for a fighter individually, to create your very own combat-class. How grand is that?
And why give fighters even more class specials? Everyone is whining about how fighters are too weak, but in my experiences, we've had wizards doing the buffing, clerics joining in the fray, but fighters commanding the battlefield, dealing the most damage, having never-ending tricks, and tackling just about anything, as long as they kept their gear up-to-date.
And yes, spell-components are, especially at higher levels, expensive. 500 gold for a ruby? What? Well, it has happened. 100 gold for a simple identify-spell, no less. What's that all about? So in the end, a full caster in high maintenance, because you need to pay a lot of money for components and focusses. A fighter... Just has her items, which last.
Remember that there are fighter-builds around that are nasty, to say the least. Powerful. They do exist. Now, when an inventive mind would come across a fighter, creates a build, and then adds all these extra-special things... They'd be in heaven, and the rest of the party, with exception to the rogue and main survival-user, would be... Well, just standing there, as the fighter kills everything with relative ease, without getting killed herself.

Deepblue706
2007-05-26, 11:29 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...

Barbarian Rage with some feats added-on actually makes them kinda...scary. Also, the prestige class options they have can also make them pretty darn big.

Fighters get lotsa feats, but so many of those bonus feats aren't very useful. I've made quite a few feats intended for fighters, and posted them here, but I wanted to try a new approach.

Yes, a Fighter can take Improved Toughness - but so can a Barbarian. Okay, the Fighter still has more room for extra stuff - but what will he take? There aren't that many great choices. He certainly can't get a feat that gives him the Barbarian's Damage Reduction. He can't buy the Barbarian's speed. He can't the Barbarian's Rage, something that grants will save bonuses, more HP, and more attack/damage. The Fighter gets all of these individually through feats, yes...but it's lacking when you reach higher levels.

The feats like Weapon Specialization aren't too strong. And, I can't agree Spec. alone makes up for a lack of rage.

Also, just because you experienced that Fighters aren't weak doesn't mean they aren't. Have you investigated the threads where their power is actually discussed formally? Or, have you seen just snippits of "Fighters aren't good, blah blah..." and came to the conclusion that these people just have no idea what they're talking about? It's quite commonly held that Fighters need fixing, and that's why I've presented this.

These abilities I've given the fighter are supposed to help the him at higher levels, because that's when their weakness stands out. What level did your "experience" take place at? How much had each of the group been familiar with the rules and tactics to be found within the game? What was the DM's style? Did the games strictly follow CR and all that jazz?

Spell components aren't overly expensive. How much does a Fighter need to spend on his Armor, a Shield if he wants one, his primary weapon, his secondary weapon? Howabout a tertiary weapon? If Fighters want to be effective, they should be able different kinds of damage.

I'm not saying Wizards don't spend their money - but I think they certainly do get "more bang for their buck".

But anyway, if you really want someone to formally explain why Fighters aren't so great...that should probably be discussed in another thread. There are plenty of people who share this opinion, out there - someone who has the patience for it will gladly (well, maybe not so gladly) explain with more detail.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-26, 11:40 PM
Dryad - you may find the following threads informative:

Casters v. Fighters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36333)
Wizards v. Fighters 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37699)
The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)
Wizards v. Fighters 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34436)
Casters v. Non-casters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32575)

And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Make your own thread about the topic in Gaming if you don't see your arguments addressed to your satisfaction. Homebrew isn't really the place for it.

Deepblue706
2007-05-27, 12:07 PM
Added: Final Stand.

Also, I like bumping my own material.

TheThan
2007-05-27, 01:05 PM
I really like this fix. It stays true to what fighters are supposed to be and at the same time addresses many of their drawbacks. I only have one small complaint: the skills.

See I believe that any warrior worth his salt would stay alert to his surroundings. So I would give them spot and listen as class skills, besides that making sense, they’re two skills that are almost required for adventuring. I also believe that heal should be on their class skill list too. Since most warriors would learn some basic healing techniques so they can patch up themselves or their fellows after a fight.

So add heal, listen and spot, and maybe pump their skills up to 4+int a level and I think your fighter class would be just a little bit better than it already is.

jindra34
2007-05-27, 01:20 PM
What the fighter really needs is to get over the identity crisis this forum has given it.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-05-27, 01:41 PM
Deepblue, this is a nice class. Well done.

I still like the Ultimate Fighter, but that is just me, I guess.

Cybren
2007-05-28, 01:15 PM
Deepblue, this is a nice class. Well done.

I still like the Ultimate Fighter, but that is just me, I guess.

The Ultimate Classes are nice but you have to use the whole lot of them together.

Deepblue706
2007-05-28, 01:17 PM
I want to add one more thing. But I have no idea of what. Honestly, Final Stand was a stab at a capstone, or what have you - but I don't actually like it.

Hmm...maybe I'll swap it out for something that I spent for than 30 seconds contemplating.

Expect more to come in the future.

Vaniel
2007-06-06, 12:34 AM
I want to add one more thing. But I have no idea of what. Honestly, Final Stand was a stab at a capstone, or what have you - but I don't actually like it.

Hmm...maybe I'll swap it out for something that I spent for than 30 seconds contemplating.

Expect more to come in the future.

Me again,

Alright, I'll be offering your version of the Fighter to my players for a game I'll be running, eventually, for playtesting.

I'll have feedback once I get some :smallwink:

Here are some things I've done, tell me what you think.

- Gave the fighter 4+Int skills, and will be giving them a few more CC
- Added in the Alacritous Ardor abilities description that the fighter becomes fatigued after usage, being more a physical ability than magical. Fatigue as barbarian after rage.
- Moved down Disciplined Defense to 5th level
- Uncanny Vigor starts at 3rd level instead of fourth, so the fighter gains an extra per day at 3,7,11,15,19
- Moved mettle up to 9th level
- Removed Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, felt that it didn't fit the fighter archetype.
- Armor training and Superior armor training mixed in too one ability at 9th level (Actually thinking of removing this and creating it as multiple feats to be chosen in the fighter bonus feats, requiring X fighter level...)
- Alacritous Ardor downed to level 13th (thinking of upping it somewhere else, maybe around 10 or 11th level)
- Final Stand downed to level 20
- Strenght of will downed to 17th level

So, comments?

/Vaniel

Deepblue706
2007-06-06, 01:22 AM
I'm honored someone's considering allowing this class in a game of theirs...

But I can't say I think you should make some of those changes. Some things were designed very deliberately.

4+INT mod skills for a Fighter just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Sure, Fighters could use this and that in the skill field, but I thought they were supposed to simply spend that much time training their fighting ability. I guess, to each his own, though.

Alacritous Ardor already costs a use of Uncanny Vigor - but I guess if you wanna add in fatigue as well...I dunno, I guess you'll find out how it works.

Change in Disciplined Defense's level - this doesn't make any sense to me. 5th level means that you suddenly get a +3 to AC if you have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. This was meant to be something that develops with time, starting from the very beginning. You'll notice that lack of a bonus feat at level 1, making Fighter not such a valuable "dip class"...this was also supposed to compensate that lacking.

The main idea I was trying to present that defense is a very basic thing for a warrior, and is in the very fundamentals of combat. Thus, I also find this ability being gained at a higher level to disconnect with that whole concept.

Improved Uncanny Dodge keeps a Fighter from being flanked. I dunno, I figured if he's one mega-swordsman fighting two not-so-mega swordsmen, and they both try to outmaneuver him, it'd be cool to see that he still fights them hella-good. But, I suppose I could understand why you don't want to use it. Perhaps there's another way to help a Fighter from being so easily flanked without giving it to him through this way. Eyes in the Back of your Head is a nice feat - maybe something similar to that could be implemented instead.

Vaniel
2007-06-06, 02:01 AM
I'm honored someone's considering allowing this class in a game of theirs...

Really, I love this class that much:smallwink:


4+INT mod skills for a Fighter just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Sure, Fighters could use this and that in the skill field, but I thought they were supposed to simply spend that much time training their fighting ability. I guess, to each his own, though.

I can see where you're going. I've been hearing from a few friends and other that the Fighter lacks versatility in any situation not involving combat, since it has a poor list of Class Skills and few skill points to even use.

Maybe I'll just add more Class Skills, maybe.


Alacritous Ardor already costs a use of Uncanny Vigor - but I guess if you wanna add in fatigue as well...I dunno, I guess you'll find out how it works.

I felt that AA was more of a great physical effort than magical, and would result in fatigue. Yeah, probably will be taking the fatigue away if it weakens the fighter too much.


Change in Disciplined Defense's level - this doesn't make any sense to me. 5th level means that you suddenly get a +3 to AC if you have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. This was meant to be something that develops with time, starting from the very beginning. You'll notice that lack of a bonus feat at level 1, making Fighter not such a valuable "dip class"...this was also supposed to compensate that lacking.

The main idea I was trying to present that defense is a very basic thing for a warrior, and is in the very fundamentals of combat. Thus, I also find this ability being gained at a higher level to disconnect with that whole concept.

I actually didn't realize the sudden increase, thinking to myself that having it a 1st or 5th level would have the same effect, in correlation with the bonus feats, in a long-term campaign. Finally, probably worth putting it at 1st, 2nd or 3rd...


Improved Uncanny Dodge keeps a Fighter from being flanked. I dunno, I figured if he's one mega-swordsman fighting two not-so-mega swordsmen, and they both try to outmaneuver him, it'd be cool to see that he still fights them hella-good. But, I suppose I could understand why you don't want to use it. Perhaps there's another way to help a Fighter from being so easily flanked without giving it to him through this way. Eyes in the Back of your Head is a nice feat - maybe something similar to that could be implemented instead.

*Quick look at the feat...*

Probably could implant the feat or something similar around low to mid levels...

/Vaniel

P.S: Great to have the creators comments, kudos to you

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-06, 02:23 AM
Uncanny Dodge most definitely fits with the Fighter Archetype. Two less-than-stellar fighters attempting to flank a component opponent? He'd easily be able to turn the situation against them.

I like fix, but I've only got one complaint. That dead level at 17. Dead levels just make me angry.

Deepblue706
2007-06-06, 02:55 PM
Wow...17 really IS a dead level. Not just with special abilities, but not even a save increase, or anything.

Okay, okay, I'll try to get something there as well.

Vaniel
2007-06-06, 10:40 PM
Found something that might interest you for that 17th level dead zone.

Weapon Master: At 17th level, a fighter is so proficient in the art of combat, that he can duplicate any maneuver learned previously with a single weapon with all weapons of the same type and category. A fighter can apply all weapon specific feats, like Weapon Focus, to all weapons of the same type.

Callix
2007-06-07, 05:48 AM
I like it, and would love to play one, and I have to sasy the idea that a great swordsman could be floored in two rounds by two mid-level rogues always annoyed me, but it seems a little hefty at early levels. Fighters already rock the lowbies, but these fighters get extra abilities very early. Just a minor niggle.

Deepblue706
2007-06-07, 01:40 PM
This Fighter only gets a bit of extra AC capability at low levels, and acquires the Uncanny Vigor ability at level 4. While a strong ability, and granted while Fighters are already still strong, it's not long after that when you notice that Fighters start to lose momentum. At this point, this ability grants them a good save, once per day, and nothing else.

I think that's fair for taking away the bonus feat at level 1.

At level 5, the Fighter gets the ability to call for some extra HPs, and gets harder to kill. At this level, the Barbarian already has Improved Uncanny Dodge - his own version of invulnerability. Sure, this Fighter gets it too - but not until later, when his Barbarian buddy already has some DR.

It's not until level 9 where their real abilities come into play - what comes before that is just really for flavor, and to simply prepare the foundation for abilities to come. If I were to just start making changes to the Fighter at level 9 and up, then I'm not doing everything I can to accomplish all of my goals - one of which being to give the Fighter an image. An image should be consistent throughout, not just present in a few select pockets.

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Also, I filled up 17's gap (and changed the ability at 19). Thoughts?