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lillitheris
2007-05-23, 11:16 PM
I'm sitting here staring at the equipment lists and I'm trying to make some decisions. It has put a question in mind though.

For an epic level game, do you think that the increased critical range of some weapons with the increase crit modifier is better than the regular increased damage of a higher die weapon?

Which weapon do you think is the best for both of these (crit and damage delivery)?

TheOOB
2007-05-23, 11:25 PM
In an epic level game, assuming you don't fight a lot of undead/constructs/other crit immune enemies, improved critical threat range/multipliers are almost always better then an increase to damage.

For example, at low levels a longsword is usually better then a rapier. assuming 14 strength a longsword averages 6.5 damage while a rapier averages 5.5, thats a pretty significant increase (almost 20%). The 5% greater chance that a critical threat will be rolled won't give you that much extra average damage.

In a epic level game where you are doing 50, 100, or more damage per a hit, the extra 1 or 2 damage from a larger weapon doesn't matter. Damage points don't scale to level, but criticals do. As your damage per hit goes up, the amount of extra damage the improved criticals grant you does as well.

From a math standpoint, an increase to threat range and an increase to multiplier is almost identical, for example, a longsword will add 100% damage to your attack twice as often as a battle axe, but a battle axe will instead add 200%, it evens out. I prefer high threat ranges, but thats because I like my weapons more reliable.

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-23, 11:32 PM
Crit range extension effects benefit high-multiplier weapons more than high-range weapons, don't they? You can certainly keep your crit range expanded by 1 all the time... Scythe?

TheOOB
2007-05-23, 11:39 PM
Crit range extension effects benefit high-multiplier weapons more than high-range weapons, don't they? You can certainly keep your crit range expanded by 1 all the time... Scythe?

Lets compare a longsword to a battle axe again, this time with improved critical. Lets assume that all threats are confirmed.

A longsword will crit(add 100% damage) 20% of the time(17-20). 1x.2=.2 That equals a 20% bonus to overall damage.

A battleaxe will crit(add 200% damage) 10% of the time(19-20). 2x.1=.2 That equals a 20% bonus to overall damage.

We could also compare a falcion to a scythe w/improved crit. Falcion = 100% x 30% = 30% bonus damage.

Scythe = 300% x 10% = 30% bonus damage.

Basically the damage bonus for crit range a is equal to crit multipler b when a = b-1

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-23, 11:46 PM
:smallredface: For whatever reason, I had it in my head that improved crit effects were +1 crit range instead of double (and thus would favor the axe over the sword).

And yet, I seem to have been right in my conclusion, completely by accident. 4x crits do have an edge.

Jasdoif
2007-05-23, 11:48 PM
It comes down to the particulars of how your bonus damage reacts to crits. If you have a flaming frost shock weapon, that's 3d6 that doesn't get increased by your multiplier, so the high multiplier loses its equal footing. On the other hand, if you have a flaming burst icy burst shocking burst weapon, you get bigger bonus dice on a high multiplier (the original 3d6 plus an extra 9d10 in the case of the scythe's x4), so the higher multiplier comes ahead.

It can get complicated if you have a lot of different kinds of bonus dice type abilities on your attacks....

TheOOB
2007-05-23, 11:54 PM
It comes down to the particulars of how your bonus damage reacts to crits. If you have a flaming frost shock weapon, that's 3d6 that doesn't get increased by your multiplier, so the high multiplier loses its equal footing. On the other hand, if you have a flaming burst icy burst shocking burst weapon, you get bigger bonus dice on a high multiplier (the original 3d6 plus an extra 9d10 in the case of the scythe's x4), so the higher multiplier comes ahead.

It can get complicated if you have a lot of different kinds of bonus dice type abilities on your attacks....

Acually, once again with flaming/icy burst weapons an increase to multiplyer is equally as valuable as an increase to threat range. With a x3 weapon flaming burst deals twice as much extra damage with a crit, but only crits half as much as a 19-20 weapon. It uses the same math I used above.

Miles Invictus
2007-05-24, 12:03 AM
Devastating Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#devastatingCritical). Every time you critical with your chosen weapon, your opponent must make a Fortitude save or die (DC >= 34). Combine with an appropriate Vorpal weapon (you don't need keen, because Improved Critical is a prereq), and you've got a decent chance of instant-killing anything with a discernable anatomy.

Depending on your other equipment, you'd want to use a Kukri, Scimitar, or Falchion -- all three are martial weapons with good threat ranges.

TheOOB
2007-05-24, 12:06 AM
Likely a falcion, as devestation critical works well with higher str, which works well with a 2H weapon.

EDIT: Though devestation crit + 2 kukris is awesome too, reminds me of NWN.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 12:12 AM
Acually, once again with flaming/icy burst weapons an increase to multiplyer is equally as valuable as an increase to threat range. With a x3 weapon flaming burst deals twice as much extra damage with a crit, but only crits half as much as a 19-20 weapon. It uses the same math I used above.Hmm. So it is. And it'd be the same for most "increased on critical" abilities based on the multiplier, wouldn't it?

I guess that leaves the critical abilities not tied to the multiplier as the tiebreakers. Things like the aforementioned Devastating Critical, and Telling Blow.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-24, 12:23 AM
Lets compare a longsword to a battle axe again, this time with improved critical. Lets assume that all threats are confirmed...This is nice and simple math, but it overlooks one key aspect; wasted damage.

If an enemy has 20 HP and you deal 481 damage to him... you really only did 20 HP worth of damage. Well, fine, 30. These numbers are arbitrarily extreme, but the point needs to be made; high-multiplier weapons are far more likely to deal more damage than necessary, which essentially negates their advantage. Alternatively, while a 19-20/x2 weapon won't be as likely to trivialize the actual amount of damage dealt, and its wider crit range is always helpful.

Basically, a wide threat range optimizes your average case scenario, whereas a high multiplier optimizes your best-case scenario.

Oh, and if you want to have insane crits, Master Thrower + Throw Anything + a whole bunch of Heavy Picks will do you wonders.

Miles Invictus
2007-05-24, 12:24 AM
Kukris and Scimitars are useful if you're dedicated to the TWF route. Perhaps levels in Dervish?

TheOOB
2007-05-24, 12:30 AM
This is nice and simple math, but it overlooks one key aspect; wasted damage.

If an enemy has 20 HP and you deal 481 damage to him... you really only did 20 HP worth of damage. Well, fine, 30. These numbers are arbitrarily extreme, but the point needs to be made; high-multiplier weapons are far more likely to deal more damage than necessary, which essentially negates their advantage. Alternatively, while a 19-20/x2 weapon won't be as likely to trivialize the actual amount of damage dealt, and its wider crit range is always helpful.

Basically, a wide threat range optimizes your average case scenario, whereas a high multiplier optimizes your best-case scenario.

Oh, and if you want to have insane crits, Master Thrower + Throw Anything + a whole bunch of Heavy Picks will do you wonders.

Plus you have a much greater chance of a critical happening in an important battle with a high threat range rather then a high multiplier. A high crit aint worth squat if it dont happen during your BBEG fight.

Orzel
2007-05-24, 12:35 AM
Kukris and Scimitars are useful if you're dedicated to the TWF route. Perhaps levels in Dervish?

STR Ranger

NWN 1. Good times.

TheOOB
2007-05-24, 12:42 AM
Rogue/Assassin/Weapon Master

If it wasn't immune to crits, it died in the first round, if it was, well thats what scrolls of improved invisibility are for.

LotharBot
2007-05-24, 12:59 AM
The difference between a d4 kukri and a 2d6 greatsword is big at low levels, but virtually unnoticeable at high levels. But the difference between a weapon that doubles your +39 from Power Attack and high strength on rolls of 15-20 vs. a weapon that doubles your +39 only on a natural 20 is huge.

Of course, if you're a rogue, sneak attack doesn't multiply on crits, so it doesn't really matter what weapon you're using.

On average, you do the same damage over time with an x4 weapon and an 18-20 weapon, or with an x3 and a 19-20 weapon... but the weapon with the high multiplier is far more likely to be overkill, while the weapon with the large range is far more likely to do *just* enough damage to finish an encounter a round quicker than it would've otherwise taken.

Summary: base weapon damage doesn't really matter at high levels. Crit multiplier/range matter a lot for strength-based characters (with range slightly more important than multiplier due to "overkill"). Crits don't particularly matter for rogues.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-24, 04:53 AM
Of course x4 crit is the supreme crit, because it's obviously better than x3 crit and x3 crit is balanced with 19-20/x2. x4 is supreme as much as x2 is bad.

Person_Man
2007-05-24, 10:21 AM
The two methods I'm aware of of breaking the Keen rules are Barbarian Streetfighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) or a Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a). Mathematically speaking, each does better using a *4 weapon, rather then a weapon with a high crit range.

Also, you should know that builds focused on high crits are quite weak. Many creatures are immune to crits. Rolling high enough to trigger your crit, and then confirm your crit, is very unreliable. And even if you roll high enough and then confirm, you often "waste" a lot of damage, by reducing an enemy to -100 hit points. You just need to reduce your enemies to -10 hit points, you don't win anything by killing them beyond that point. Consistently dealing good damage is better then sporadically dealing massive damage.

JaronK
2007-05-24, 10:26 AM
Disciples of Dispater can also break the criticals thing, doing 9-20 critical threats if the base weapon is 18-20. They're from 3.0 though (BoVD).

JaronK

lillitheris
2007-05-24, 11:07 AM
I've decided to go with the falchion. Any suggestions for enchantments for it? I've got stupid amounts of cash to spend on it. 720k to be precise.

Indon
2007-05-24, 11:37 AM
Wounding is always a good investment for it's price.

If you aren't taking Improved Critical for your weapon, I'd also suggest Keen.

If you take another weapon as well, you might even want Dancing (Though that would serve best on your alternate weapon, I feel).

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-24, 01:05 PM
Collision gives +5 damage, for (IIRC) a +1 bonus.

Brilliant Energy is great because you ignore armor bonuses.

Vaniel
2007-05-24, 02:38 PM
How large can the threat range for a critical strike be? Even with Improved/Devastating critical feats, are there other ways to increase both threat and multipliers?

And what weapon would best serve this purpose of min/maxing the criticals?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-24, 03:59 PM
How large can the threat range for a critical strike be? Even with Improved/Devastating critical feats, are there other ways to increase both threat and multipliers?

And what weapon would best serve this purpose of min/maxing the criticals?

In 3.0 a Weapon Master with a keen Scimitar, Rapier or Falchion and the improved critical feat could get 10-20. If you allow Weapon Master (or the overpowered Psychic Weapon Master) in 3.5 you can still get 13-20 since the only thing you're missing out is the keen property.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 04:08 PM
In 3.0 a Weapon Master with a keen Scimitar, Rapier or Falchion and the improved critical feat could get 10-20. If you allow Weapon Master (or the overpowered Psychic Weapon Master) in 3.5 you can still get 13-20 since the only thing you're missing out is the keen property.

9-20, actually, and increased the multiplier too. 9-20/x7 is a thing of beauty.

The excerpt for Complete Champion has a PrC that allows you to add 1 to the threat range of a weapon, above and beyond the effects of keen/imp. critical.

Dhavaer
2007-05-24, 04:10 PM
Collision gives +5 damage, for (IIRC) a +1 bonus.

Where is Collision from?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-24, 04:13 PM
It's in the Magic Item Compendium., prolly appeared somewhere else first.

Amiria
2007-05-24, 04:15 PM
Collision is a +2 bonus, from the XPH.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision

Not worth it, imo. For that +2 you can get Sacred (+1, LM) and Mage Bane (+1, CAr).

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-24, 04:25 PM
There's a list of some of the better enhancements here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9231978).

Yakk
2007-05-24, 04:28 PM
I've decided to go with the falchion. Any suggestions for enchantments for it? I've got stupid amounts of cash to spend on it. 720k to be precise.

At epic levels, that's not much.

A bare +6 enhancement weapon costs 720k to buy.

If you don't want a +6 weapon, you can buy multiple normal weapons. 720 k is enough for 3 +10 "normal" weapons, one +7 "normal" weapon, and change to pay for the special materials the weapon is made out of.

Some good enchantments:
Wounding (+2, 1 con damage per hit)
Merciful (+1, damage is non-lethal, +1d6 damage per hit, can be toggled)
Flaming, Shock, Frost (+1 each, +1d6 fire/electricty/ice damage each)
Axiomatic/Holy/Chaotic (+2 each, +2d6 damage vs correct alignment)
Ghost Touch (+1, avoids incorperal avoidance)
Defending (+1, allows you to move bonus to AC)
Brilliant Energy (+4, ignore non-living matter (like armor, or undead))
Spell Storing (+1, stores up to 3rd level spells, first hit delivers: ray of exaustion anyone?)

You'll want at least one "greater magic weapon" weapon: a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special toys on it. Cast "greater magic weapon" on it, and it is all of a sudden a +5 weapon with +9 in toys on it. :)

Speed (+3) is also useful if you don't have a haste buffer around.

+1 Wounding, Merciful, Flaming, Shock, Frost, Ghost Touch, Holy as an example.

Burst enchantments ... well, they suck. A 15% chance to do 1d10, or a 100% chance to do 1d6: which do you pick?

The advantage of "crit on a 20" is that if you can only hit on a 20, you don't lose any crit range.

If you can figure out a way to get a ridiculous number of attacks at a low to-hit bonus, that becomes an option.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-24, 04:30 PM
Yeah, I thought it was +1. It's not worth it at +2.

But for 50,000 GP you can get a Fleshgrinding Dagger of Wounding.

Get 2 and then start each combat with them. They stick in the target, repeating their normal damage each round. Including strength to damage and the like.

So with 2 stuck in a guy he takes 2 Con damage per round, in addition to (if done right) the combined 40 damage that the daggers deal. It lasts 5 rounds.

And to remove a fleshgrinding dagger takes a standard action and a DC 20 strength check.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 04:34 PM
Burst enchantments ... well, they suck. A 15% chance to do 1d10, or a 100% chance to do 1d6: which do you pick?

You seem to have misread the burst enchantments. They do the d6 constantly, and a d10 extra when they critical.


Flaming Burst
A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra fire damage from the flaming ability (see above), a flaming burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of fire damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

Even if the flaming ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra fire damage on a successful critical hit.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-24, 05:18 PM
There's also greater wounding, from MM2. Same as wounding, except double cost/effect.

Errata means it does double 3.5 wounding, so 2 con. Costs twice as much enhancement as well.

LotharBot
2007-05-24, 05:32 PM
Burst enchantments ... well, they suck. A 15% chance to do 1d10, or a 100% chance to do 1d6: which do you pick?


You seem to have misread the burst enchantments. They do the d6 constantly, and a d10 extra when they critical.

Right... at a cost of +2. Elemental and alignment damage come at a cost of +1 per d6. The difference between plain old "flaming" and "flaming burst" is a +1 bonus and a +1d10 that triggers 5-30% of the time. That's what Yakk was addressing -- what economists would call "opportunity cost", or what you could've got for the same price instead.

You're better off getting two elements or a single alignment (+2 / +2d6) than flaming burst (+2 / +1d6 + an occasional 1d10). That extra d6 every hit is better than the extra d10 on only a small percentage of hits.

ghost_warlock
2007-05-24, 05:59 PM
A really nice weapon, especially at equip levels, is the tiger fang legacy weapon from Tome of Battle. A 15-20/x4 speed weapon, ftw! :smallcool:

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-24, 06:10 PM
A really nice weapon, especially at equip levels, is the tiger fang legacy weapon from Tome of Battle. A 15-20/x4 speed weapon, ftw! :smallcool:

Maybe. I got turned off legacy weapons when I realised my sword would give me an attack penalty and I disliked the Tome of Battle ones because they didn't have the Discipline focus ability despite it being a natural choice.

ghost_warlock
2007-05-24, 06:38 PM
Maybe. I got turned off legacy weapons when I realised my sword would give me an attack penalty and I disliked the Tome of Battle ones because they didn't have the Discipline focus ability despite it being a natural choice.

I think the writers did it that way because swordsages already have it and warblades don't really need it (they already apply their Int-bonus to a variety of rolls). Instead, they wanted the weapons to grant a number of other thematic abilties that wouldn't necessarily be redundant.

lillitheris
2007-05-24, 07:37 PM
There's also greater wounding, from MM2. Same as wounding, except double cost/effect.

Errata means it does double 3.5 wounding, so 2 con. Costs twice as much enhancement as well.

Where exactly is greater wounding located? MM2 = Monster Manual 2?

EDIT: Never mind I found it.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 07:50 PM
There's also greater wounding, from MM2. Same as wounding, except double cost/effect.

Errata means it does double 3.5 wounding, so 2 con. Costs twice as much enhancement as well.RAW, it does not. Its text does not say it has double the effect of the wounding property. It says the weapon deals 2 points of damage per round after a hit, until stopped with a heal check or healing magic. Since there's no reference to the standard wounding, its not affected by the changes to it.

(Page 62 in Monster Manual II, if anyone's looking).

lillitheris
2007-05-24, 07:56 PM
Damn shame it doesn't say that it doubles the con damage. That would be awesome.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 08:02 PM
You could try to get it house-ruled as such. If wounding was only +1 back then, though, this rebrewed greater wounding should almost certainly be higher then the listed +4.

Yakk
2007-05-25, 02:38 PM
Burst weapons can punch through damage resistance, which is about their only virtue over non-Burst weapons.

Let's price burst weapons assuming that the weapon is keen, or under improved crit effect.

+1 enhancement = 3.5 elemental/alignment damage as a baseline.

Top-end keen weapons have a 6-pip crit range (either 6x2 or 4x3 or 2x4).

Burst damage should scale with the crit multiplier: so a x2 weapon does x1 base burst, a x3 weapon does x2 base burst and a x4 weapon does x3 base burst.

Then we will do base_burst * .3 damage on average per hit.

If +1 = 3.5, then +1 of burst is 3.5 / .3 or 11.67 base burst damage.

Ie, replace the 1d10 in the burst weapon descriptions with 1d20 or 2d10, and burst enchantments would be as good as standard elemental enchantments.

That is ... rather crazy. So instead, what about:

Flame I: +1: does 1d6 elemental damage. No extra damage on crit.
Flame II: +2: does 1d10 elemental damage which is multiplied by crit multipliers like normal damage dice.

That works out to 5.5 * 1.3 = 7.15 points of damage on average per hit, assuming a keen/imp crit weapon. Just about twice the 3.5 average damage from Flame I.

Note that "epic" flame burst enchantments are +6 for 3d6 (multiplies with crits), for a cost of +1 enchantment = 2.4 damage. Pretty bad: it is almost always better to get more raw enhancement and power attack than to use them.