Warpriest D&D 3.5?

[PrincessZander]

Okay, so i'm in love with the idea of a scythe wielding warpriest in pathfinder but i can't find any D&D 3.5 varients. So i was wondering if it was at all possible to make a warpriest character in D&D 3.5 through multi classing or feats. Any help is greatly appreciated (^_^)

[avr]

The differences in the games are showing here. In 3.5 it takes less feats to be a lethal warrior, and fighters et al. don't get in class boosts like weapon training, so a simple cleric can do the beatstick role well enough that the warpriest class would be overkill. Google clericzilla or codzilla if you don't believe me.

In particular one simple, highly effective cleric melee type is a cloistered cleric using knowledge devotion and 3.5's version of the spell divine power.

If that doesn't suit can you give any details on the background you're aiming to reproduce or other limitations you're working with?

[LudicSavant]

Okay, so i'm in love with the idea of a scythe wielding warpriest in pathfinder but i can't find any D&D 3.5 varients. So i was wondering if it was at all possible to make a warpriest character in D&D 3.5 through multi classing or feats. Any help is greatly appreciated (^_^)

The 3.5e version of a Warpriest is just playing a melee Cleric build. I mean, I'm not too big on Pathfinder, but on first glance I'm not seeing any flavor or mechanics here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest#TOC-Aspect-of-War-Su-) that a cleric can't replicate.

There are also some excellent prestige classes for melee-oriented clerics, such as Ordained Champion or Ruby Knight Vindicator.

As for using a scythe, check out the spells Surge of Fortune and Sense Weakness. They combo well with a scythe.

[PrincessZander]

If that doesn't suit can you give any details on the background you're aiming to reproduce or other limitations you're working with?

Most core books are allowed, only limits are no psionics/3rd party/hombrew/book of erotic fantasy

The thing i like most about warpriest is the asthetic (ofcourse, a scythe weilding badass priest is awesome) and the ability to attack hard whilst still being able to act as a cleric. Also the damage of the weapon scales as you lvl up so you don't have to focus too much on the martial aspect of the warpriest.

[LudicSavant]

Most core books are allowed, only limits are no psionics/3rd party/hombrew/book of erotic fantasy

The thing i like most about warpriest is the asthetic (ofcourse, a scythe weilding badass priest is awesome) and the ability to attack hard whilst still being able to act as a cleric.

The Cleric class is one of the hands down best melee characters in the game in 3.5e, and can wield a scythe very effectively.

[Psyren]

The Warpriest's main benefit is the ability to buff or heal itself as a swift action while still full-attacking and with both hands full, which a cleric will have a harder time replicating. The supernatural weapon and armor buffs are nice too - GMW can be dispelled but you never have to worry about Sacred Weapon being stripped off. Several of the blessings are nice too.

[PrincessZander]

The Cleric class is one of the hands down best melee characters in the game in 3.5e, and can wield a scythe very effectively.

How does this work exactly, I thought clerics were weak with low ac due to being spellcasters.

Edit: oh wait, were you talking about the battle cleric cus yeah i can see that now :p

[avr]

Another difference to PF: 3.5 clerics get heavy armor prof. Their AC is just fine.

Yet another: power attack can be pushed further, you choose the bonus/penalty anywhere up to your BAB, rather than fixed to 1 + 1/4 your BAB. This and other damage bonuses can make the weapon damage dice irrelevant.

If you just want to hit people hard choose buffs that can be cast well in advance for the most part, e.g. Greater magic weapon, magic vestment, sense weakness, then note a couple for just before combat use when you get the chance e.g. Divine favor, divine power, righteous might.

Feats for the simple version of your character are martial weapon prof (scythe), power attack, leap attack and quicken spell. If you decide to dip one level in fighter that frees up a couple of feats and so you might get improved bull rush and shock trooper, or maybe a couple of devotion feats.

If you want to push the power level up higher then there are schemes which use the divine metamagic feat and 3.5's persistent spell to make those just before combat spells into 24 hour buffs. This is considered cheese at most tables.

[LudicSavant]

How does this work exactly, I thought clerics were weak with low ac due to being spellcasters.

Clerics have anything but low defenses. They get heavy armor proficiency right off the bat, and have extraordinarily powerful defensive spells and features. Being a spellcaster does nothing at all to make them weak.

[PrincessZander]

Being a spellcaster does nothing at all to make them weak.

I was thinkning of the spell failure chance then realised they're devine spells not arcane lol

starting lvl is 7 so i was thinking fighter2/cleric5, so with a flaw that gives me 4 starting featss, 1 bonus feat at lvl2 and 1 feat at lvl 3 but i'm not sure what feats/domains/deity i should choose. The war domain seems pretty cool but the only deity that has the war domain and a scyth is chaotic evil and i was thinking of more of a neutral character

[LTwerewolf]

You might be happier with cleric 7. That's the level you get divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) which goes a long way towards making clerics better fighters than fighters.

[LudicSavant]

I was thinkning of the spell failure chance then realised they're devine spells not arcane lol

starting lvl is 7 so i was thinking fighter2/cleric5, so with a flaw that gives me 4 starting featss, 1 bonus feat at lvl2 and 1 feat at lvl 3 but i'm not sure what feats/domains/deity i should choose. The war domain seems pretty cool but the only deity that has the war domain and a scyth is chaotic evil and i was thinking of more of a neutral character

Dipping 2 levels of fighter will generally make you worse at melee combat that having 2 extra levels in cleric. As for deity, I have no idea what setting you are playing in.

[PrincessZander]

You might be happier with cleric 7. That's the level you get which goes a long way towards making clerics better fighters than fighters.

So wait, if Cleric is just a straight up better fighter than a fighter, what's the point in fighter?

I've looked into clericzillas and tbh i'm still not sure i get it lol

[Deadline]

So wait, if Cleric is just a straight up better fighter than a fighter, what's the point in fighter?

Exactly!

Ahem. At any rate, Clericzilla is usually fully enabled by Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell] cheese. Without that, you can still wreck face. The first turn of any combat where you want to be better than a fighter, you cast Divine Power. Then you wade in. If you decide that you don't want to be better than a fighter, and just want to be a better than average melee combatant, then you skip casting Divine Power and just wade in. Any hours long buff spells (like Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Vestments) should be put up before you enter a dungeon or dangerous area, and then you just pretend you're a fighter and scythe your way through the bad guys, stopping to cast a spell or two when needed.

[LudicSavant]

So wait, if Cleric is just a straight up better fighter than a fighter, what's the point in fighter?

There isn't one, really. The class is just kind of underpowered.

[PrincessZander]

Okay cool, so taking all of your suggestions into account i came up with

Human: Weapon proficiancy Scythe
Flaw: Weapon focus
1st: Power attack
lvl3: Healing Devotion
lvl6:Leap Attack

For the first lot feats and not dipping into fighter, cus apparently fighter is a dumb class :p As for a deity and domains, i was thinking the healing domain cus the party doesn't have a healer and we die way too often, but can't think of anything else. All gods are allowed, one of the characters even has a pathfinder god cus the dm is cool (but not cool enough to just let me take the warpriest class into a D&D campaign haha) but was thinking of a deity as neutral as possible to fit with the rest of the group who are mostly neutral and tend to switch from good to bad deeds based on whims (i.e. we're here to save you all, but not before breaking all your doors and searching for trouble) again any help you guys can offer is greatly appreciated (^_^)

[LudicSavant]

Okay cool, so taking all of your suggestions into account i came up with

Human: Weapon proficiancy Scythe
Flaw: Weapon focus
1st: Power attack
lvl3: Healing Devotion
lvl6:Leap Attack

For the first lot feats and not dipping into fighter, cus apparently fighter is a dumb class :p As for a deity and domains, i was thinking the healing domain cus the party doesn't have a healer and we die way too often, but can't think of anything else. All gods are allowed, one of the characters even has a pathfinder god cus the dm is cool (but not cool enough to just let me take the warpriest class into a D&D campaign haha) but was thinking of a deity as neutral as possible to fit with the rest of the group who are mostly neutral and tend to switch from good to bad deeds based on whims (i.e. we're here to save you all, but not before breaking all your doors and searching for trouble) again any help you guys can offer is greatly appreciated (^_^)

I'd skip Healing Devotion, Weapon Focus, and Leap Attack. And try to get the weapon proficiency from something else. But that's just me.

Anyways, what's really going to be important is your spell choices and how you decide to use your spells.

[PrincessZander]

I'd skip Healing Devotion, Weapon Focus, and Leap Attack. And try to get the weapon proficiency from something else. But that's just me.

Anyways, what's really going to be important is your spell choices and how you decide to use your spells.

What would you go for instead of them and what spells do i need to know?

also for stats i was thinking wis16 str16 cha12 dex10 con12 int8 (cus i couldn't give a damn about skillpoints) that sound legit?

[LudicSavant]

What would you go for instead of them and what spells do i need to know? Oh boy, there are so many options. I'll see if I can find time to write up a list of some later today, when I have access to my books.


also for stats i was thinking wis16 str16 cha12 dex10 con12 int8 (cus i couldn't give a damn about skillpoints) that sound legit?

That does sound legit, yes.

[LTwerewolf]

If you have access to tome of battle, look at ruby knight vindicator, also known as ruby knight windicator. You can qualify with a single level of crusader.

Some staples of the codzilla are power attack (feat), divine power (spell), righteous might (spell), and persistent spell (feat). Persistent spell requires extend spell. You can also take divine metamagic persistent spell, and even if you're not using shenanigans can persist several low level buffs. If you have access to faerune material, battletide is a great spell, especially if you combine it with extraordinary spell aim. You'll lose a total of 3 caster levels if you take it 1-10 (2 in rkv and 1 from your level in crusader) which means you still get 9th level spells, which are stronger than armies by themselves.

[LudicSavant]

If you have access to tome of battle, look at ruby knight vindicator, also known as ruby knight windicator. You can qualify with a single level of crusader.

Some staples of the codzilla are power attack (feat), divine power (spell), righteous might (spell), and persistent spell (feat). Persistent spell requires extend spell. You can also take divine metamagic persistent spell, and even if you're not using shenanigans can persist several low level buffs. If you have access to faerune material, battletide is a great spell, especially if you combine it with extraordinary spell aim. You'll lose a total of 3 caster levels if you take it 1-10 (2 in rkv and 1 from your level in crusader) which means you still get 9th level spells, which are stronger than armies by themselves.

RKV is indeed pretty cool. Another lovely prestige class for melee clerics is the Ordained Champion (from Complete Champion), which has the fun ability of custom-designing smite evil effects ("I hit him with my scythe and he gets FLAME STRIKED").


What would you go for instead of them and what spells do i need to know?

Okay, so, there are a lot of good cleric spells. To cover all of the spells that I think are relevant, I'd have to write an entire optimization guide, and I don't plan to do that here (though I might in the future, because I love Paladins but dislike the Paladin class, and have a ton of experience with playing melee clerics as a result. Only if people are interested, though). I'll just give you a few that synergize with a melee scythe cleric to get you started. I'm only going to be listing things of up to 5th level for the sake of saving myself time, and because going much farther seems like it would be rather irrelevant to your 7th level character. Also, this is not all of the good ones I can think of (there's too many), it's just a random smattering. So here goes:

Level 1) Blade of Blood (PHB II): More weapon damage as a swift action.
Conviction (SpC): Better saves.
Ice Slick (Frostburn): It's like Grease except with ice.
Sign (SpC): Because initiative is super important in this game.
Updraft (SpC): Superjump. Swift action!
Snowshoes (SpC): Move faster. You like mobility. Also helps out with some difficult terrains.
Shield of Faith (PHB): deflection bonus to AC!
Protection from (Alignment) (PHB): Fantastic defensive spell. The fact that it blocks mental influence is huge.
Hide from Undead (PHB): Excellent stealth spell against undead.
Magic Weapon (PHB): In case you don't have a magic weapon, and need one. Probably not very important at level 7.

Level 2) Shield Other (PHB): Auto-tanking.
Benediction (SpC): Bonus to saving throws, expend to reroll an attack or something.
Cloud of Knives (PHB II): Throw a knife every round as a free action.
Stay the Hand (PHB II): Interrupt enemy attacks as an immediate action.
Sense Weakness (SpC): Automatically confirm a critical threat. Combine with that x4 Scythe crit damage.
Divine Insight (SpC): Get a large bonus to any skill check in a pinch.
Silence (PHB): Enemy casters are bad. Also stealth.
Suppress Magic (MoI): Turn off a magic item. So, that guy has Fortification Armor and you can't crit them with your scythe? Turn it off.
Frost Breath (SpC): Breathe frost like a dragon, crowd control people.
Close Wounds (SpC): Ranged immediate action healing. One of the few lower level healing spells I actually use in combat sometimes.

Level 3) Footsteps of the Divine (Complete Champion): Move fast. Potentially really fast. Fly if you want to.
Magic Circle Against (Alignment) (PHB): Even better than Protection from (Alignment).
Knight's Move (SpC): Teleport into a flanking position as a swift action.
Hesitate (PHB II): Use an immediate action to shut down enemy actions.
Ghost Touch Weapon (SpC): Stab ghosts.
Invisibility Purge (PHB): Stab invisible people.
Magic Vestment (PHB): Never pay for enhancement bonuses to armor or shields.
Girallon's Blessing (SpC): Have claws and four arms.
Dispel Magic (PHB): Because enemy magic is bad.
Blade of Pain and Fear (SpC): Terrify people by punching them in the face.
Alter Fortune (SpC): Don't like your d20 roll? Fix it... for a small XP cost which you should not be afraid to pay.
Mass Conviction (SpC): Like regular conviction, except you inspire the whole party.
Blindsight (SpC): Get Blindsight.
Mass Resist Energy (SpC): Make your party resistant to a type of energy damage you expect to be facing.

Level 4) Freedom of Movement (PHB): Because CC is bad for you if you are melee.
Dimension Door (PHB): Get from point A to point B.
Greater Resistance (SpC): All day save buff. A fun trick with 24-hour spells is to cast them right before your spell slots refresh, so that you have the buff the next day and the spell slot free.
Death Ward (PHB): Immunity from some nasty stuff.
Divine Power (PHB): Solid melee buff.
Greater Magic Weapon (PHB): Save all of the money that you would have spent on Enhancement bonuses.
Revenance (SpC): Because death isn't a good excuse to stop kicking ass.
Delay Death (SpC): Don't die from hp damage.
Air Walk (PHB): Long lasting aerial movement.

Level 5) Surge of Fortune (Complete Champion). Get a natural 20. Combos with scythes.
Righteous Might (PHB). Do that thing that Durkon is doing in the GitP comics right now. Straight up good melee buff.
Divine Retribution (Complete Champion): Hit people back hard when they hit you.
Revivify (SpC): Bring back dead people.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC): Haste the whole party and give everyone melee buffs.
Swift Etherealness (PHB II): Become ethereal for a round as a swift action.
Earth Reaver (SpC): Blast people and knock 'em down.
Greater Stone Shape (SpC): Reshape the dungeon to suit your needs.
Break Enchantment (PHB): Important status-curing effect.
True Seeing (PHB): See your enemy so that you can stab them.

Oh, and then there are Domain spells. Those are often pretty awesome, too.

[NapazTrix]

How is persistent spell going to help when they don't have access to 7th level spells until lv 13?

[sleepyphoenixx]

How is persistent spell going to help when they don't have access to 7th level spells until lv 13?

The Divine Metamagic feat (CD) uses Turn Undead uses instead of increasing the spell level. As long as you have 7 or more uses of Turn Undead you can persist any spell you can cast normally (if it can be persisted).

[LudicSavant]

Persistent Spell doesn't increase the spell level at all if you're using Divine Metamagic. And, well, it's really strong. There's a legitimate reason people refer to it as "Persistent Spell cheese."

That said, a well-played melee cleric is very strong, with a fair chance of being the strongest character in a given party, and totally passes the Same Game Test (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_%28DnD_Guideline%29) without resorting to Persistent Spell. Even when I was playing a melee cleric in high-op games (actually playing in a group full of CharOp optimization guide writers, facing strategically-played enemies far above our CR) I didn't even come close to feeling that I had to use that feat in order to be highly competitive.

Here are some other good feat choices for melee clerics:
- Law Devotion (Complete Champion): +3-+7 buff to attack rolls or AC, usable as a swift action, with a rare bonus type (sacred or profane).
- Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion): +1-+5 bonus to hit and damage, based on your knowledge roll to identify the creature you're fighting. Strictly better Weapon Focus for the thinking cleric.
- Animal Devotion (Complete Champion): Offers a variety of animal buffs to choose from, such as a +2-+8 sacred/profane bonus to Strength or access to Overland Flight or a speed boost or a poisonous bite attack.
- Strength Devotion (Complete Champion): Bypass hardness with your attacks, all your attacks count as Adamantine for DR purposes, and you get a good natural attack.
- Travel Devotion (Complete Champion): Movement as a swift action.
- Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer): Solid damage, though you may wish you had more skill points.
- Holy Warrior (Complete Champion): +1-+9 bonus to weapon damage rolls (no action). Also a +1 caster level bonus to (force) spells.
- Extend Spell (PHB): Make your spells last longer.
- Quicken Spell (PHB): Cast spells faster.
- Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine): Use turn undead attempts to fuel metamagic.
- Divine Fortune (PHB II): Use a turn undead attempt as an immediate action for a +4 save bonus.
- Divine Spell Power (Complete Divine): Use a turn undead attempt to boost the caster level of your spells.
- Scribe Scroll (PHB): The cleric spell list is massive... and you can make scrolls out of anything on that list. There are all kinds of situational spells that are handy to have a scroll of just in case.
- Extra Turning (PHB): Get more uses of Turn Undead. Excellent in combination with divine feats (like Divine Metamagic) and devotion feats (like Law Devotion)
- Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine): If you lose spell levels for any reason (such as Ruby Knight Vindicator or Ordained Champion), this will boost your caster level.