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View Full Version : What's the Monk's unarmed critical stats



TGWG
2007-05-24, 12:30 AM
I've gone to a few sources but they don't say. is the critical range still one? is it still double damage? or should I keep looking?

Ponce
2007-05-24, 12:32 AM
20/x2. Natural attacks are at this modifier, and the monks get no special bonus in this regard from their class.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-24, 11:12 AM
yeah, monks get a bit of the shaft on crits.

Yuki Akuma
2007-05-24, 11:20 AM
20/x2. Natural attacks are at this modifier, and the monks get no special bonus in this regard from their class.

What do natural attacks have to do with anything? A monk's unarmed strikes follow the rules on the table of weapons in the PHB, except when it comes to damage.

Penguinsushi
2007-05-24, 11:33 AM
What do natural attacks have to do with anything? A monk's unarmed strikes follow the rules on the table of weapons in the PHB, except when it comes to damage.

Yeah, what I was about to post. The PHB entry on monks' unarmed combat kind of assumes you know how unarmed combat normally works (AoO, 1d3+str$, 20/x2), and then tells you the difference here (which is essentially getting the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free, but with lethal damage and more of it).

~PS

Ponce
2007-05-24, 12:49 PM
What do natural attacks have to do with anything? A monk's unarmed strikes follow the rules on the table of weapons in the PHB, except when it comes to damage.

Because an unarmed strike's critical multiplier and threat range is the same as the universal stat for natural attacks. One is clearly drawn from the other. Either way, I assumed he already knew about the stats given on the equipment table and pointed out that the monk gets no special bonus.

Yuki Akuma
2007-05-24, 02:42 PM
Because an unarmed strike's critical multiplier and threat range is the same as the universal stat for natural attacks. One is clearly drawn from the other.

No, not really. The base critical threat range is 20 and the base critical modifier is x2. That's just how it works. If something doesn't say otherwise, that's what its critical hit rules are.

Ponce
2007-05-24, 03:49 PM
No, not really. The base critical threat range is 20 and the base critical modifier is x2. That's just how it works. If something doesn't say otherwise, that's what its critical hit rules are.

Its not unreasonable to assume that if the critical stats for an Unarmed Strike were something higher than the base that Natural Attacks would be similarly increased. Unarmed Strikes ARE Natural Attacks, which is the only point I was making.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 03:54 PM
Unarmed Strikes ARE Natural Attacks, which is the only point I was making.No, they're not.

A creature is always considered armed with a Natural Attack and thus can make an attack of opportunity with one and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when using one, and does not get iterative attacks from a high BAB with one.

Yuki Akuma
2007-05-24, 03:58 PM
Unarmed Strikes ARE Natural Attacks

Ah, I was waiting for that...

No. No they are not. They're manufactured weapons, for some reason. A monk gets to treat them as natural weapons for feats and spell effects, but that's the exception, not the rule.

Ponce
2007-05-24, 04:36 PM
They can be used as manufactured weapons, but that doesn't mean they aren't also natural attacks, to the monk or similar classes. As you said, for all intensive purposes, the monk can consider it a natural attack, one that can be used with far fewer restrictions (namely the ability to wield it as if it were a manufactured weapon). That doesn't mean it is disqualified from the natural attack quality. Unarmed strikes belonging to anyone do not strictly fit the bill of manufactured weapons; my reasoning for this being they cannot be enchanted as regular weapons can. In fluff terms, there's also the fact that they aren't manufactured at all. I did mean this from the perspective from the monk, which is why only the monk or similar classes can qualify for feats regarding natural attacks (unless I am mistaken?).

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 04:43 PM
They can be used as manufactured weapons, but that doesn't mean they aren't also natural attacks, to the monk or similar classes.They are NOT natural attacks.


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.For anything other then a spell/effect/feat enhancing or improving them, even a monk's unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack.

And so unless this hypothetical blanket improvement to natural attacks' crit ranges is the result of a feat/spell that can apply to any natural attack, a monk's unarmed strike would not benefit.

Ponce
2007-05-24, 04:55 PM
For anything other then a spell/effect/feat enhancing or improving them, even a monk's unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack.

When else would it matter? If they allow the monk to meet a prerequisite for a Natural Attack and are treated as Natural Attacks for other effects... By RAW, no, I suppose they aren't. But I am curious to see when the distinction comes into play.


And so unless this hypothetical blanket improvement to natural attacks' crit ranges is the result of a feat/spell that can apply to any natural attack, a monk's unarmed strike would not benefit.

I suggested that such an increase would be tied to an identical increase in unarmed strikes.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 04:57 PM
When else would it matter? If they allow the monk to meet a prerequisite for a Natural Attack and are treated as Natural Attacks for other effects... By RAW, no, I suppose they aren't. But I am curious to see when the distinction comes into play.This is an important distinction, because you can use natural weapons on top of a flurry of blows or full attack with a manufactured weapon. If a monk's unarmed strike is a natural weapon, everyone with so much as a single level in monk gets a free attack (at a -5 penalty that doesn't affect any other attack rolls) with every flurry and full attack they ever make, from then on, until eternity.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-24, 05:04 PM
Unarmed Strikes also provoke AoOs, while Natural Attacks do not. Another important distinction.

TGWG
2007-05-24, 06:51 PM
That's weird I'm reading the player's handbook and it says that the monk's unarmed attack counts as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. doesn't say anything about feats. do I have the wrong version?:smallfrown:

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 06:55 PM
That's weird I'm reading the player's handbook and it says that the monk's unarmed attack counts as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. doesn't say anything about feats. do I have the wrong version?:smallfrown:No. "Effect" is a catchall term, here. A feat's effects are, well, effects.

TGWG
2007-05-24, 10:29 PM
:smallsmile: Oh. I get it... :smalleek: Wait, does that mean a monk can take the Two-weapon fighting line on top of improved natural attack? That would be insane!

... in retrospect, I feel so stupid for just figuring this out now.

but at least now I know that a medium, lev 25 monk sporting perfect weapon weilding, two-weapon rend, improved natural weapon, greater flurry of blows, and keen strike does ten unarmed attacks of 4d8 damage + full strenght modifier all with a critical threat of 18-20/d2, if I count in the epic base attack bonuses, plus an extra attack of 4d8 + 1/2 of strenght modifier, with three non-epic feats left over for anything else. provided that they all hit.

did I get that right?

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 11:08 PM
I strongly suggest you stick with the pre-epic rules (level 20 and earlier) until you're more comfortable with them. Epic rules can be quite odd.

For instance, your actual base attack bonus doesn't increase after level 20, but you get a bonus to your attack rolls instead. This is the same thing, with one major exception: You don't get more attacks in a full attack. That means a monk 25 still only gets three normal attacks in a full attack, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting gives you the same amount (three, which means the feat's actually a waste since Greater Two-Weapon fighting does the same thing), and flurry adds two; for a total of eight attacks.

Yes, it looks weird.

Your damage looks right, 4d8 + Str; however your rend would deal 4d8 + one and a half times your Str modifier. Keep in mind, to get a rend you have to hit at least with each hand, and you can only rend once per round.

Note that this is the epic Two Weapon Rend feat I'm talking about, not the non-epic one in PHB2.

TGWG
2007-05-24, 11:39 PM
Is there a "major exception" to the epic saves as well? I would like to be told these things so i won't make a fool of myself.

SO in the end a TWF Monk has the same number of attacks per full attack as a TWF barbarian? then why give him flurry at all? why not increase his BAB and drop the flurry all together? What are the advantages of flurry vs full BAB?

on other news, I've decided my build. lev 25 mediam monk with weapon finese, improved natural attack, two-weapon fighting, improved critical (unarmed), weapon focus (unarmed), improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, keen strike, epic weapon focus (unarmed), and infinate deflection. States in order of decending importance are wisdom, derexity, constitution, intelegence/strenght, and charisma. skills in jump, balance, move silently, climb, and swim.

Jasdoif
2007-05-25, 12:01 AM
Is there a "major exception" to the epic saves as well? I would like to be told these things so i won't make a fool of myself.No, the epic save bonus works as expected.


SO in the end a TWF Monk has the same number of attacks per full attack as a TWF barbarian? then why give him flurry at all? why not increase his BAB and drop the flurry all together? What are the advantages of flurry vs full BAB?First, not everyone uses TWF, in many cases using a two-handed weapon gives better damage output. But more to the point, realize that the base classes are really aimed towards playing at the earlier levels, epic is basically an optional add-on and isn't particularly well-balanced. In fact, even in regards to pre-epic debates abound over class balance (there's a live one going on about the monk right now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165)).

Vazzaroth
2007-05-25, 12:17 AM
When else would it matter? If they allow the monk to meet a prerequisite for a Natural Attack and are treated as Natural Attacks for other effects... By RAW, no, I suppose they aren't. But I am curious to see when the distinction comes into play.

One example, albeit a minor one, I know of is using either magic fang or magic weapon on a monk, both apply equally.