Advice on a sneaky build.

[Deca4531]

I'm looking to make a character that can be my parties forward Scout. I was planning on going mostly ninja since a lot of the ninja tricks and ki abilities give me some good utility like vanish, levitate and spider climb and at 10th level I can pass through walls. I was also planning on taking a dip into shadow dancer for the hide in plain sight ability at level 6 but that requires 3 feats to qualify for so I'm a little apprehensive about it. I'm going to be doing a Kitsune and taking the feat that lets me turn into a tiny Fox for an extra boost to my speaking ability. I've looked around but can't find much in the way of a guide to ninjas in Pathfinder so if anyone has any suggestions for feats or equipment or even alternate class options I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

[Secret Wizard]

1. Don't be a shadowdancer. You can go invisible. That's enough to hide in plain sight.

2. You'll be better at your job if you don't go Finesse based or picked a class with a STR penalty.

3. You'd get a bigger boost to sneaking if you went Human and used the extra feat to get Conceal Scent.

[Geddy2112]

Other than maxing dex and stealth, you could always take skill focus (stealth).

Max your use magic device and carry wands of things like darkness, invisibility, silence, forced quiet etc.

There is also the eerie disappearance rogue talent that is worth looking into.

[Deca4531]

1. Don't be a shadowdancer. You can go invisible. That's enough to hide in plain sight.

2. You'll be better at your job if you don't go Finesse based or picked a class with a STR penalty.

3. You'd get a bigger boost to sneaking if you went Human and used the extra feat to get Conceal Scent.

The invisibility will only last 1 round and burn up the low amout of Ki points ill have, i figured shadow dancer will give me a more frequent and reliable ability to avoid detection.

Why will a finesse build make my job harder?

Few humanoids will have scent, and there are items i can get mask it if it becomes a problem. The extra feat from human cant compeat with the ability to become a fox, which would give me: +4 dex, -2 str, + 8 stealth, + 1 nat armor, +2 size armor bonus.)

[DedWards]

Are you hell bent on Ninja? It's a cool class, but I feel a proper Rogue or a Ranger make for excellent scouts. If you really want to play Ninja, Vanishing Trick (and Invisible Blade at level 10) will be your best friends as they basically guarantee Sneak Attack damage.

[Deca4531]

Are you hell bent on Ninja? It's a cool class, but I feel a proper Rogue or a Ranger make for excellent scouts. If you really want to play Ninja, Vanishing Trick (and Invisible Blade at level 10) will be your best friends as they basically guarantee Sneak Attack damage.

I wanted to go ninja for the burst damage, hopefully giving me the ability to silently assassinate a target before he can raise an alarm. Rogue can do that as well, but their tricks, from what i have seen, arent as powerful as those that the ninja can use with his Ki pool.

[Kurald Galain]

The invisibility will only last 1 round and burn up the low amout of Ki points ill have,

You can get more ki points by taking monk vows.

[Psyren]

Hellcat Stealth will get you hide in plain sight without needing to dip Shadowdancer, and it works even with no shadows around. Plus you don't lose any ki, sneak attack progression or any other ninja abilities. Combine with Dampen Presence and you should be all set.

For equipment I suggest a smokestick or eversmoking bottle + Fogcutting Lenses or Goz Mask - this will let you make full ranged sneak attacks from hiding prior to getting Invisible Blade's Greater Invisibility. (Actually it works a bit better than IB since you defeat See Invis and True Seeing this way.)

[Coxswain]

The invisibility will only last 1 round and burn up the low amout of Ki points ill have, i figured shadow dancer will give me a more frequent and reliable ability to avoid detection.

I think you misread the talent. It's actually one round per level, so by level 6 you would be able to disappear for 6 rounds per ki point.



Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.

[Secret Wizard]

The invisibility will only last 1 round and burn up the low amout of Ki points ill have, i figured shadow dancer will give me a more frequent and reliable ability to avoid detection.

Why will a finesse build make my job harder?

Few humanoids will have scent, and there are items i can get mask it if it becomes a problem. The extra feat from human cant compeat with the ability to become a fox, which would give me: +4 dex, -2 str, + 8 stealth, + 1 nat armor, +2 size armor bonus.)


And -3 damage with reduced weapon damage size.

Also, Invisibility lasts rounds equal to your Ninja level. Once you get Invisible Blade as a Master Trick, your invisibility won't be stopped by attacking so you can stay invisible for 10 rounds per ki at level 10. I think you are really undershooting how strong that ability is.

Finesse to me is weak on Ninjas simply because they can swing a Katana so hard without breaking invisibility and because they don't need high DEX to pass through guardposts thanks to on-demand and plentiful invisibility.

Here's a sample STR-build, to level 12:

Starting Attributes: S16 D15 C14 I7 W10 C12 (7 INT is enough to max: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Bluff and Disguise)

Racial Bonus: +2 STR
Pips: +1 DEX, +2 STR

LV1. Improved Initiative, Toughness
LV2. Weapon Training (Katana)
LV3. Power Attack
LV4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
LV5. Conceal Scent
LV6. Kamikaze // Darkvision
LV7. Extra Ki
LV8. Vanishing Trick
LV9. Cornugon Smash
LV10. Invisible Blade
LV11. Improved Critical
LV12. Evasion // Feat: Twist Away

This build can stealth, take hits, and dish a ridiculous amount of damage with pretty high accuracy.

[DedWards]

There's 3 builds I've seen that could make for a great Ninja. One is a pure Ninja build, gunning for Invisible Blade at level 10, the other do a 1 to 4 level dip into another class to get bonuses from those classes, but that puts you the same number of levels away from getting Invisible Blade.

The Pure Ninja build is somewhat MAD. DEX is your main stat as it helps with both stealth and your accuracy with weapons (you will be taking Weapon Finesse), it also increases your AC which is important as you;re very squishy. CHA is your next most important stat as it affects your Ki pool, and allows you to be the party's face. Next stat on the list is CON, this is your HP booster and as a front liner with no real armour, more HP is always nice. It'd probably be best to keep STR slightly raised as it affects your damage in melee. INT is important as you're a 'Skill Monkey', so more Skill points is nice, but you don't really need that much (maybe 12 for Combat Expertise). WIS is probably the only dump stat you have.

The first Multiclass is playing Monk for 4 levels until you get Ki from the Monk. Because of the way Ninja's Ki ability is worded, this changes your Ki stat to WIS instead of CHA, and because a pure Ninja is slightly MAD, it also allows you to turn CHA into a dump stat instead of WIS. Monk gives WIS bonus to AC, which stacks with the normal DEX bonus, but this also means you won't be wearing any armour at all. Going Monk also allows for Monk vows, which is another source of extra Ki. You can also sneak attack with Flurry of Blows, which is fun. Down side is you don't get Sneak Attack until you go Ninja and Invisible Blade can only be obtained at level 14 (Monk 4, Ninja 10).

The other Multiclass is a one level dip into Rogue. Level one Rogue gives Trap Finding, something Ninja's don't have. Up side is, the Sneak Attack stacks with your Ninja Sneak Attack. Sown side, Invisible Blade is now a level 11 acquisition (Rogue 1, Ninja 10).

Here's a guide to building a Ninja:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEZyEP-yooZdGprglxcEorpL_EnPfUqr6M89uHmF8Bo/edit?pli=1

Hope this helps you.

[Psyren]

Going Monk also allows for Monk vows, which is another source of extra Ki.

Actually, any ki-using class can take the Vows, no need to be a monk. Monks who take them trade away Still Mind, but classes that don't have that don't lose anything.

[DedWards]

Actually, any ki-using class can take the Vows, no need to be a monk. Monks who take them trade away Still Mind, but classes that don't have that don't lose anything.

My bad. Thanks for pointing that out. I still think Monk 4 / Ninja X is the best option for a high Ki Ninja, even with the delayed acquisition of Invisible Blade.

[Psyren]

You can also do Ninja VMC Monk. This gets you an extra 10 ki before vows and you don't delay any of the ninja tricks. The feats you lose are a wash because the things you gain are equal to ninja tricks anyway - effectively you get Unarmed Combat Training, Unarmed Combat Master, Evasion and Improved Evasion (4 ninja tricks) plus 5 instances of Extra Ki. The only downside is that you can't wear armor, but your dex should be pretty high anyway, and you can always just ignore it and wear a chain shirt until you can afford bracers.

[DedWards]

You can also do Ninja VMC Monk. This gets you an extra 10 ki before vows and you don't delay any of the ninja tricks. The feats you lose are a wash because the things you gain are equal to ninja tricks anyway - effectively you get Unarmed Combat Training, Unarmed Combat Master, Evasion and Improved Evasion (4 ninja tricks) plus 5 instances of Extra Ki. The only downside is that you can't wear armor, but your dex should be pretty high anyway, and you can always just ignore it and wear a chain shirt until you can afford bracers.

I didn't know about VMC. Reading it on d20pfsrd, but Monk as the secondary class as only grants the Ki based on WIS at level 11, which kind of goes against what I was thinking with the normal dip into 4 Monk levels, then going into Ninja. At least that way you get Ki based on WIS from level 4, not level 11. The delay in getting Invisible Blade is easily substituted by smart usage of the Ki you do have. Just use Vanishing Trick after attacking, then move to reposition yourself for the next (Sneak) Attack.

[Psyren]

I didn't know about VMC. Reading it on d20pfsrd, but Monk as the secondary class as only grants the Ki based on WIS at level 11, which kind of goes against what I was thinking with the normal dip into 4 Monk levels, then going into Ninja. At least that way you get Ki based on WIS from level 4, not level 11. The delay in getting Invisible Blade is easily substituted by smart usage of the Ki you do have. Just use Vanishing Trick after attacking, then move to reposition yourself for the next (Sneak) Attack.

You get it at 11 but it counts your levels retroactively, meaning you get an extra 1/2 character level ki at that point (i.e. 5 ki.) And you get Invisible Blade at 11 rather than 15+.

For me the delay with dipping 4 levels of monk is just too long. Though you can always dip Unchained Monk instead and get the ki pool after only 3 levels, plus a BAB boost.

Another cool trick for more ki is to dip Eldritch Scion Magus. This gives you an Eldritch Pool based on Cha, then you take Ki Arcana and effectively get Cha to ki twice.

[Deca4531]

Hang on, what is VMC and reading the monk vows section didnt give me any indindication that non monks could use them.

[Psyren]

Hang on, what is VMC and reading the monk vows section didnt give me any indindication that non monks could use them.

VMC = Variant Multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing) from Pathfinder Unchained.

Vows = "This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."

[Triskavanski]

With Steatlh focus, you can pick up Hell Cat Stealth to hide from vision. Then you can pick up dampen pressence to hide from Blind sight/blind sense.

There is an alchemical item that lets you block scent completely, or blend yourscent into something else.

[Deca4531]

VMC = Variant Multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing) from Pathfinder Unchained.

Vows = "This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."

Wow, that's a cool variant.

[Psyren]

Wow, that's a cool variant. If iIdipped sorcerer iIcan pick up the shadow bloodline, which would net me darkvision at lv 3 and hide in plain sight plus a cool dimension door ability at 9th

Sorcerer is actually one of the weaker ones, because you can take the Eldritch Heritage line for the same benefit, along with earlier access to the 9th and 15th-level bloodline powers.

VMC Sorcerer is a good way to get a bloodline if you have low Cha though.