Spheres of Power

[sammyp03]

I'm super excited to be running my first SoP game shortly. Love the system but I did notice a couple of things.

conjuration seems to be pretty strong compared to some other spheres. Any ideas on how to balance it a better or what house rules you have for it?

[Mehangel]

A common houserule for conjuration is that:

High-casters cannot spend more than 1/3rd their talents on that sphere.
Mid-casters cannot spend more than 1/2 their talents on that sphere.
Low-casters have no limit on where they spend their talents.

In addition the above houserule can be applied to the alteration sphere as it too has alot of potential.

[sammyp03]

A common houserule for conjuration is that:

High-casters cannot spend more than 1/3rd their talents on that sphere.
Mid-casters cannot spend more than 1/2 their talents on that sphere.
Low-casters have no limit on where they spend their talents.

In addition the above houserule can be applied to the alteration sphere as it too has alot of potential.

Sweet that makes sense. Thanks. Also does the destruction line seem rather weak to you?

[stack]

Destruction takes a bit of finesse and an understanding that you aren't just doing damage. If all you want to do is blast, you are going to be a bit disappointed.

Look at blast shapes and how they can be used in different fights. Obviously energy orb is good for blasting mooks and energy wall can be used to discourage enemies from passing through certain areas. Energy sphere is great for single targets, since you can use your move action to attack with it every round, letting you either use other abilities with your standard or load it up and hit twice per round. I would generally recommend not spending SP on augmenting the basic ranged touch attack, instead multiplying those spell points by using them on a long lasting shape.

A crystal blast energy orb can create huge areas of difficult terrain, for example, while if you just want to do damage adding metamagic to an acid sphere works well. Don't forget spellcrafting! Steal time is a nice rider on energy sphere.

Destruction will be getting many more options come march-ish, when the supplement dedicated to it is released.

[sammyp03]

Destruction takes a bit of finesse and an understanding that you aren't just doing damage. If all you want to do is blast, you are going to be a bit disappointed.

Look at blast shapes and how they can be used in different fights. Obviously energy orb is good for blasting mooks and energy wall can be used to discourage enemies from passing through certain areas. Energy sphere is great for single targets, since you can use your move action to attack with it every round, letting you either use other abilities with your standard or load it up and hit twice per round. I would generally recommend not spending SP on augmenting the basic ranged touch attack, instead multiplying those spell points by using them on a long lasting shape.

A crystal blast energy orb can create huge areas of difficult terrain, for example, while if you just want to do damage adding metamagic to an acid sphere works well. Don't forget spellcrafting! Steal time is a nice rider on energy sphere.

Destruction will be getting many more options come march-ish, when the supplement dedicated to it is released.
You sir are awesome! I just glanced over destruction because it seemed like just blasting. Thanks for pointing out some really awesome stuff

[stack]

You sir are awesome! I just glanced over destruction because it seemed like just blasting. Thanks for pointing out some really awesome stuff

Well, I am writing the aforementioned supplement, so I have spent a by of time thinking about it.

Actually, that's backwards. Destruction was in the free preview PDF, along with the elementalist class, so I have spent a lot of time figuring out how to make them work well, which led to my elementalist handbook, which led to other handbooks, and then I was well suited for picking up destruction when the call went out for freelancers.

[Vhaidara]

Hey! My Conjuration houserules are spreading!

Oh, there's another quick and dirty fix: Extra Companion becomes an Advanced Talent, requiring Caster Level 5. It can be taken multiple times, but each time the CL requirement increases by 5 (so 5, 10, 15, and 20)

Alternatively, ban Extra Companion.

[stack]

Hey! My Conjuration houserules are spreading!

Oh, there's another quick and dirty fix: Extra Companion becomes an Advanced Talent, requiring Caster Level 5. It can be taken multiple times, but each time the CL requirement increases by 5 (so 5, 10, 15, and 20)

Alternatively, ban Extra Companion.

This is better since the other method hurts a thaumaturge way more than an incanter despite both being high casters.

[Vhaidara]

This is better since the other method hurts a thaumaturge way more than an incanter despite both being high casters.

Yeah, when I made that fix, I'd only really played around with Incanter, Mageknight, and Hedgewitch (and glanced over elementalist, Shifter, and Armorist).

Honestly, even after reading stack's guide, I still only half get thaumaturge. And I'm writing an archetype for it for Conjuration

[Lirya]

The broken part of the Conjuration Sphere is the advanced talents Diagram and Summoning. Those talents basically give Planar Binding.

The basic part of Conjuration looks very powerful at first glance, due to it being Summon Eidolons with 1 day duration if you take the right talents. However, there are mitigating factors that keep it in line.

First, the conjuration sphere isn't very attractive to dip a few talents into. It does provide a flanking partner for your melee, but one who is basically a Warrior with 3/4th your level and no equipment. You need 1 talents to make it last all day, and 2 more talents to give it the scaling Str + Dex bonus a paizo Eidolons has. A quick look at how many talents sphere casters typically get will tell you that if you invest more than in a sphere + 3 talents from it, then you are specializing in that sphere instead of just dipping into it. And an eidolon without an evolution pool is just unimpressive. I guess you could also look at it as spending 2 feat equivalents (sphere + lasts all day) at getting a familiar, or 3 if you want the familiar to have skills for UMD.

Second, you can specialize in conjuring vast amounts of companions. Since you are now specializing in the conjuration sphere, you probably have enough "permanent" CL boosts (such as Sphere Specialization, and Master of Cosmos) to conjure "warriors" who are 1-2 levels higher than the party at best. You even likely have a staff boosting all their attack rolls and skill checks (so warriors with an "almost magical" weapon). However, no equipment and no special abilities means that your minions will be vulnerable to enemy aoe effects (try mass ranged hostile plane shift, or mass fear/paralysis/command/dominate, or cone of nauseated, etc.) and are easily made irrelevant by obstacles that stop mundanes (you figure out mid day that you have to plane shift/teleport/fly somewhere? oh well, too bad you don't have enough resources to bring your army. And too bad you don't have the spell points to resummon all of them). And since you focused your power into summoning more minions, you won't have the ability to help them deal with those problems. So yes, summoning vast amounts of minions is powerful, but only in the same way a Dirty Trick Master Lore Warden, Eldritch Guardian, or say a Tetori Monk is powerful. You have one very powerful trick that can be applied to many situations, but you only have that one trick.

Third, you can create a single powerful companion. I would say it needs at least 3 talents, +1 talent for every 2 levels to keep it relevant. Investing a more will likely cause it to become better at fighting than most martial characters, but it also results in you being a paizo summoner without the Summon Monster SLA to fall back upon if your eidolon fails, or spells so you can buff/bfc while your eidolon fights.

Finally, in theory you could have your companion or companions take Magical Companion or Basic and Advanced Magic Training. This will give the companion 1-5 spell points, CL = 1/2 HD (which is 3/4th your CL rounded up) = 1/2 * (3/4 * your CL) (rounded up, then rounded down, minimum 1), and it must spend a feat for each sphere and magic talent it wants to know. The only real use here, is to dip into a single specific effect that you want the companion to be able to perform on its own. A typical example would be to pick up the alteration sphere + size change so that the companion can grow itself.

Oh, and for mid-casters and especially low casters. Caster Level and a low amount of talents means conjuration sphere isn't even close to worth it. You are much better off investing in spheres that give you new options that don't require CL or Talent scaling. Think dipping into illusion sphere for invisibility, warp sphere for emergency teleport, fate sphere for freedom of movement/bless/curse, alteration sphere for size change, time sphere for haste/retry etc.


As for destruction, it is very cheap to use it as a backup plan for when your buffs, debuffs, or battle-field control isn't applicable. Destruction Sphere + Explosive Orb + Force Blast + Stone Blast gives you a damage option when fighting incorporeal or magic immune/high SR foes. In addition, this gives you an excellent base to spellcraft those really nasty special effects onto (Time Steal + Forceball/Stoneball is insane, replacing Time Steal with Drain/Sickening is also incredibly nasty, adding a Charm effect from the Mind Sphere is also fun. Say hello to my fearball/dominating fireball/mind-reading explosion!).

This reminds me, I have to write up some feedback for the nature handbook somewhere. And now I have to make a sphere caster whose signature spell is "Explosion of Thoughts".

[stack]

Note: midcasters are one talent away from full CL with conjuration, the only sphere that offers an effective CL boost for a talent. Thaumaturges that dip a level in incanter can get very strong companions also, hitting CL 29 if using the human favored class bonus. Short on talents in general though, so the above critism still holds some weight.

[Vhaidara]

Conjuration isn't particularly OP unless you put it into the hands of an Incanter. On the old system (which only lost 1 free talent to be honest), I made a level 6 human Incanter who had a beatstick companion (could have been more efficient, but I gave it a greatsword), a skillmonkey companion (complete with Sneak Attack), and a blaster companion (could have had any sphere), all telepathically linked and with 24 hour summons. Oh, and they would continue to scale without further talent investment.

[Lirya]

Without further talent investment, the beatstick would fall behind due to lack of magic items and class features. Skill Monkey isn't a party member on its own in pathfinder, it is a useful niche to be able to pick up for a few talents but you would be better off adding it to your beatstick. Companion mage is just bad compared to being a better mage yourself. As a specialist incanter it caps out at 4 spell points unless you spend feats on extra spell points instead of extra magic talent (compared to an incanter's 50+ assuming 5 drawbacks and 10+ ability modifier), it maxes out with CL 8th, and its MSB/MSD is at best 4 points lower than yours by 20th level (so it won't penetrate most SR and is easy to dispel. That is assuming its HD counts as levels in a casting class due to Advanced Magic Training/Magical companion.). You spent a minimum of 2 magic talents on it, and it has a maximum of 8 talents.

The reason the beatstick needs so many talents to stay relevant is because without them (or Thaumaturge levels to boost CL by a lot), is that combat is balanced for full-bab characters with accuracy/damage buffs and WBL. To make up for this, the companion needs an accuracy buff (your staff), super strength, super dexterity, super wisdom, super constitution, weapons (1-2 talents) or extra natural attacks (enough to keep up with max eidolon natural attacks), armor, greater summoning and lingering companion. So sphere 8 talents or so gives a warrior (the npc class) with 3/4 your level, an accuracy fix, an ac fix, and stat boosters. Then you want to give it some useful abilities to make up for its bland starting form like size change, flight, skilled, disguise self, sneak attack, etc.

For a 3/4th caster, I know of the talent that brings your conjuration CL up to your HD. And it is yet another talent tax forcing the number of talents needed to create a relevant companion to equal your total amount of talents.

Yeah, for the most part I think it is a more powerful option for a sphere caster to spend 3 talents at alteration sphere to turn the Barbarian into a Huge Flying Barbarian than to invest most of your magic talents into making a Large Flying Warrior with +3d6 sneak attack.

[sammyp03]

Without further talent investment, the beatstick would fall behind due to lack of magic items and class features. Skill Monkey isn't a party member on its own in pathfinder, it is a useful niche to be able to pick up for a few talents but you would be better off adding it to your beatstick. Companion mage is just bad compared to being a better mage yourself. As a specialist incanter it caps out at 4 spell points unless you spend feats on extra spell points instead of extra magic talent (compared to an incanter's 50+ assuming 5 drawbacks and 10+ ability modifier), it maxes out with CL 8th, and its MSB/MSD is at best 4 points lower than yours by 20th level (so it won't penetrate most SR and is easy to dispel. That is assuming its HD counts as levels in a casting class due to Advanced Magic Training/Magical companion.). You spent a minimum of 2 magic talents on it, and it has a maximum of 8 talents.

The reason the beatstick needs so many talents to stay relevant is because without them (or Thaumaturge levels to boost CL by a lot), is that combat is balanced for full-bab characters with accuracy/damage buffs and WBL. To make up for this, the companion needs an accuracy buff (your staff), super strength, super dexterity, super wisdom, super constitution, weapons (1-2 talents) or extra natural attacks (enough to keep up with max eidolon natural attacks), armor, greater summoning and lingering companion. So sphere 8 talents or so gives a warrior (the npc class) with 3/4 your level, an accuracy fix, an ac fix, and stat boosters. Then you want to give it some useful abilities to make up for its bland starting form like size change, flight, skilled, disguise self, sneak attack, etc.

For a 3/4th caster, I know of the talent that brings your conjuration CL up to your HD. And it is yet another talent tax forcing the number of talents needed to create a relevant companion to equal your total amount of talents.

Yeah, for the most part I think it is a more powerful option for a sphere caster to spend 3 talents at alteration sphere to turn the Barbarian into a Huge Flying Barbarian than to invest most of your magic talents into making a Large Flying Warrior with +3d6 sneak attack.

Thanks for the great insight

[Vhaidara]

The "Skill Monkey" was a dex based companion who basically replaced the party rogue. At the cost of like 4 talents. And I never said this was an optimal build. This was 1 guy covering 3 roles.

As far as the beatstick companion, you are doing it wrong. You don't have to invest 8 talents into 1 companion. You invest 2-3 talents each into 4 companions. Action economy DESTROYS things. Because remember: No matter how many companions you have, you only have to take Greater Summoning once. So, let's say Extra Companion, Lingering Companion, and Powerful Companion. And now you have highly expendable beatsticks. And a Human Incanter at level 1 with Conjuration Specialization and Elongated Casting has 7 talents: Conjuration (unlock, first companion takes Lingering as free), Greater Conjuration, Powerful Companion [1], Extra Companion [Acquire 2], Lingering Companion [2], Powerful Companion [2], and Extra Companion [Acquire 3].

Boom, level 1, you have 2 companions with 2HD each that are around all day, and a third you can call in as emergency backup if you have some warning (and who is really there to take Lingering next level)

Hell, drop the two instances of Powerful Companion and you've got 3 that are passively there.

[sammyp03]

I have another question you folks may be able to answer. One of my players is a druid, but would like to change the wild heart ability. Is there anything that makes sense druid wise that I could substitute it for?

[Mehangel]

I have another question you folks may be able to answer. One of my players is a druid, but would like to change the wild heart ability. Is there anything that makes sense druid wise that I could substitute it for?

What is the wild heart ability? Do you mean Wild Empathy? Or do you mean Wild Shape? Or are you talking about some other alternate class feature?

[Vhaidara]

I have another question you folks may be able to answer. One of my players is a druid, but would like to change the wild heart ability. Is there anything that makes sense druid wise that I could substitute it for?

It is one of the strongest druid class features in spheres. I'd say replace Alteration with something still druidic but more fitting to his case. Probably Nature (duh), Weather (duh), Destruction (restricted to elemental blasts, so no negative energy), or Conjuration (make a fey companion or something)

[Lirya]

Without multiple talents into a single companion, their Attack Bonus and AC will be too low to hit anything. And their saves will be worse than fighter bad/rogue bad due to no cloak of resistance. It looks good (and is good) at 1st level, because the slower scaling of everything hasn't kicked in yet, but by 10th level either you are spending all your talents at making 3-4 sub optimal fighters or you decide to do something useful with all those talents.

I am not saying Conjuration is bad and can make your fighter feel bad. I am saying Conjuration (apart from the advanced talents) is at best a T4 option that provides so high numbers that a GM may have to take them into account when making encounters, and that it will make your Fighter/chained rogue feel bad (but not a paladin, mageknight, or spell sundering barbarian).

I approve of the GM informing his players that being a pure conjurer incanter with all his talents in conjuration will result in a 1 trick pony that is unfun for the rest of the table. But it is not any more powerful than other options.

7 talents is enough to give you Warp Sphere, Ranged Warp, Emergency Teleport, Mind Sphere, Expanded Charm, Mass Charm, and Command. If we assume 5th level characters, that is enough to reliably mind-control you and all your companions, and have them kill you and then themselves. While you teleport yourself and allies within close range as immediate actions to troll any other opposition. In addition, all of these abilities scale perfectly and are just as useful at 20th level as they are at 5th level.

The parts of Spheres of Power I think a GM really should keep an eye out for, to see if they are appropriate for his campaign is Advanced Talents (especially those from Conjuration, Creation, Death, Divination, Enhancement, Mind and Warp), as well as Spellcrafting (and Ritual Casting). These are the tools an Incanter can use to get frighteningly close to a CRB sorcerer in power and versatility. Mass Dominate Monster is available for a 10th level Incanter who is willing to spend 6 magic talents and 1 advanced talent in the Mind Sphere. Just be mindful of the nature of your thralls, and this will beat any number of basic talents spend in the conjuration sphere. Similarly, Mass Hostile Plane Shifts, Instantaneous Create Life, Create Demiplane, Instantaneous Create Materials + Forge into expensive stuff, Scrying + Divine Information. This is real powerful magical effects and an incanter can have most of them at the same time as you level. Your conjured adventuring party will either be you + 3 forgettable minions or 3 companions who can never even hope to achieve any of these effects. Because they require too many Spell Points, Magic Talents, and Caster Level to pull off for a magical companion.

I also thought Conjuration was OP when I first saw the army of mini-eidolons explained. I have changed my mind, and while I find Spheres much less broken and a much better system (and well worth supporting the handbooks that are being created) compared to vanician casting. I would have absolutely no worry about losing my own spotlight playing one next to a wizard, unless we are 17th level+ and the wizard is using highly optimized tactics tear the game asunder (well, simulacrum is online already at 13th level. But I assume infinite loops are shut down by the GM). The good thing, is that advanced talents and spellcrafting is split off in such a way that the GM can easily say this, and this, and this will not be used in this game, because the world is not that high magic.

[Vhaidara]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the topic of conjuration. I think you are seriously undervaluing the raw power that comes from the action economy.

Don't think for a moment that I'm saying spheres is bad. It is infinitely better than vancian casting. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be writing the expanded handbook on Conjuration myself.

But minionmancy in any form is fundamentally one of the most broken things in the game.

In your example, why are you assuming level 5? I was building a Level 1 character. Also making the point that 8 talents is really...nothing to an Incanter. Without taking Extra Magic Talent or any sphere specific drawbacks, that's barely a quarter of your talents, and for that you get an eidolon. So you could potentially have 4 eidolons. All at once.

[sammyp03]

What is the wild heart ability? Do you mean Wild Empathy? Or do you mean Wild Shape? Or are you talking about some other alternate class feature?

The "wild shape" replacement in SoP

[sammyp03]

It is one of the strongest druid class features in spheres. I'd say replace Alteration with something still druidic but more fitting to his case. Probably Nature (duh), Weather (duh), Destruction (restricted to elemental blasts, so no negative energy), or Conjuration (make a fey companion or something)

They already get nature right?

[Vhaidara]

They already get nature right?

Not automatically. Anyone can take anything in spheres. Some people just get some things for free, like Druids getting bonus Alteration talents at levels 4, 10, and 16. So instead of Alteration talents (which you would normally get from Wild Heart), you would get Nature talents (call it Heart of Nature or something)

[sammyp03]

Not automatically. Anyone can take anything in spheres. Some people just get some things for free, like Druids getting bonus Alteration talents at levels 4, 10, and 16. So instead of Alteration talents (which you would normally get from Wild Heart), you would get Nature talents (call it Heart of Nature or something)

I believe I can work with that. Thank you