Dreamscarred Press Presents: "Arcforge: Technology Expanded"

[Ssalarn]

The playtest is now closed! Thank you everyone for your participation.

[Milo v3]

*Arrives, stops running, starts reading*

[spikeof2010]

Psitech? In MY Pathfinder? It's more likely than you think. I'm hyped about it. Will gladly get to reading it shortly.

[Vhaidara]

I don't like the name. You guys seriously should just go with Psitech. It sounds so much cooler. And less...Paizo-y

[Milo v3]

Is the Wildwing meant to get the Bonded Mech class feature, as it seems to be missing it.

[Ssalarn]

I don't like the name. You guys seriously should just go with Psitech. It sounds so much cooler. And less...Paizo-y

The name is still in testing, so we may go back to Psitech.


Is the Wildwing meant to get the Bonded Mech class feature, as it seems to be missing it.

Just added it in to the playtest docs. That was a copy/paste error on my part.

[Taveena]

I'm pretty damn psyched for this. (No pun intended.) I presume based on the text there're going to be more archetypes? How do you work out which classes make sense for this?

[Mehangel]

I just looked at the document, it looks awesome. But I just wanted to verify something.

Monofilament Stilletto: Is the frail property listed on the table supposed to be fragile instead? Please tell me that it is, because I actually love the fragile property, it has so many uses..

EDIT: Also, I really hope there is soulknife support in this book.

[Ssalarn]

I'm pretty damn psyched for this. (No pun intended.) I presume based on the text there're going to be more archetypes? How do you work out which classes make sense for this?

Yeah, the archetypes I've got in some stage of development right now are-

Aegis
Cryptic
Daevic
Dread
Druid (bio mech)
Gunslinger
Marksman
Monk (inspired by Fei Fong Wong from Xenogears)
Psion
Rogue
Soulknife
Vitalist (possibly - this one may be cut if I can't nail down the mechanics)
Wilder

And how do I choose? I go with what feels right or what connects to some other source of inspiration for the project.


I just looked at the document, it looks awesome. But I just wanted to verify something.

Monofilament Stilletto: Is the frail property listed on the table supposed to be fragile instead? Please tell me that it is, because I actually love the fragile property, it has so many uses..

EDIT: Also, I really hope there is soulknife support in this book.

Yeah, that would be a goof on my part. It should be fragile, not frail.
And there absolutely will be Soulknife support.

[Taveena]

Is it weird I'd really enjoy a Zealot one? Martial arts mecha just sounds hilarious. Mind, it might be flat-impossible to actually unify the-

Wait biomech
God yes. Aberration-y ones or giant plants or...
so many possibilities.

But uh, yeah. I dunno, it might be entirely infeasible to give a Zealot a mecha - not being true manifesters or the like, buuuut, y'know. It's kind of a badass mental image. Maybe a bit too broken to initiate maneuvers through the mech. I don't know.

[Ssalarn]

Is it weird I'd really enjoy a Zealot one? Martial arts mecha just sounds hilarious. Mind, it might be flat-impossible to actually unify the-

Wait biomech
God yes. Aberration-y ones or giant plants or...
so many possibilities.

But uh, yeah. I dunno, it might be entirely infeasible to give a Zealot a mecha - not being true manifesters or the like, buuuut, y'know. It's kind of a badass mental image. Maybe a bit too broken to initiate maneuvers through the mech. I don't know.

I haven't touched initiators yet, largely because I'm going to need to take a deep breath before jumping into the boiling stew of giant robots initiating.


Unrelated to your post, but related to the project-
Was brought to my attention that "PR" as an abbreviation for "Penetration Rating" is problematic since that abbreviation is already used for "Power Resistance", so I changed to "Armor Penetration" expressed as "AP".

[Milo v3]

I should say, this is the first time I've actually looked forward to seeing someone attempt mech mechanics for 3.P, knowing that it is in the hands of someone with such fine mechanical insight for once.


Aegis
100% necessary.


Daevic
Hmm... wonder if it'll end up compatible with that inevitable daevic archetype.


Druid (bio mech)
As a lover of all things biotech, this greatly pleases me. :smallbiggrin:
Might actually consider re-allowing druid into my game just for this.

[Thealtruistorc]

Not one Akira reference so far? I'm surprised.

I really, really like this premise, and you seem to be pulling it off effectively and creatively. My questions are as follows, however:

1. Are there any hopes for high-level developments or maybe a prestige class for Evangelion or Pacific Rim-style Mechs?

2. Will there be instances of psionics powering technology like with the technomancer?

4. Could we see an alchemist or summoner archetype as well? I think the former fits particularly well.

3. Could you make an official item that acts as a boombox? I want to blare some music while rocking the world as a wildwing.

[Kiton2]

HAHAHA! FINALLY! YES! ENFIN! IT BEGINS!

First off yes, Psitech is a better name. For one thing everyone shortens things and ETG just leads to medical questions.
Second: I cannot wait to see the aegis and soulknife archetypes. Literally. I can't wait. gimme gimme gimme.

That said. Time to be an annoying prat.

Wildwing
-Why is Energized Weaponry melee only? There's already a melee only charge boost, and a melee only heat-hawk boost.
-Self-Destruct should automatically trigger safe ejection if you have the Ejection Seat upgrade. However, the explosion being nothing but a reflex-half (hey there evasion) deal, it's hard to imagine it seeing much use. Perhaps clauses regarding being unable to avoid the blast if you've eaten the mech, or if it's grappled you or otherwise in your square?

Mech rules
-Mechs seem to overall replace your armor and let you use your class abilities otherwise normally. This is good.

-Siege Weapons have a problem. A Colossal Quadruped CANNOT mount a HUGE sized ballista, because it would require THREE slots, and it only has two. Did you perhaps mean "+1 slot per size category above the mech"?

-Changing Body Types will need a little more clarification. For size, in particular. Can you resize the mech when this is done (assuming this, and would be fine), or is re-sizing automatic (ie; a quadruped changed into a flyer at level 3-10 automatically becomes small and thus unusable by medium characters which is bad)?

-Might want a few more enhancements as it levels... It's a... familiar track so it doesn't have to follow the "no empty levels" rules, but it's quite sparse, and in an average campaign will have at most a total of 3 enhancements and a size increase.



Finally, you inadvertently solved the energy problem of an Augmented Blade through the Psi-Core Upgrade. No, not because of that battery mode (but it's the most efficient anything>>Charges conversion available, and that's a good thing)...
But because you've given it the Robot type: any weapons integrated to a robot are powered by its core. Arguably this means a weapon now fully assimilated with an augmented blade's psicrystal, which means whoever actually wrote the Technology Guide will probably have you hunted down for heresy!

HERESSSYYYYY!

[Milo v3]

Part of me hopes for a vizier archetype now simply because it's a great tony stark class and my character was a stark expy....

[Kaidinah]

I think Psitech is a more fun name. Not only is it more recognizable as a DSP product, it was also word-of-mouth advertised as such for so long that it will be called Psitech anyway. If anything, Psitech: Expanded Technology Guide. I've just grown very attached to Psitech.

Wildwing. This feels like your mecha protagonist right here. The Overdrive system is pretty nifty, and well worth the loss of Warrior Paths. Energized Weaponry and Rocket Punch feel very strong for 1st level, and I think they need a minimum level. High Performance is also a little funky since it can give a pretty huge attack and save bonus. Once you have two psionic focus, you can afford to have High Performance on for even the longest of fights, essentially making it an automatic take. I can't help but feel that Ejection Seat and Self Destruct should have some sort of synergy.

Squad Leaders are crazy cool! I love the idea of remote controlling your mech, and probably a few other mechs, while providing tacticool support to your party. One problem though. What is the remote mech's BAB?

As for mechs themselves. Do they get the +8 strength, -2 dex when they increase in size? Do they get the additional hit points for being a construct increasing in size?

I think Mech Piloting is an interesting feat. Anyone (psionic) who wants to invest 4 feats can have a mech!

I think the Psi-Core Upgrade feat is really neat. I have always been a big fan of psicrystals, and the potential they could have. This feat really reaches out to that potential, and lets a psionic character "technology" it up in fantastic new ways. Though, I think it should get a (Psionic) tag.

It was real cool to include a technological weapon for finesse people. They were sorely lacking in that respect, compared to the brutally awesome chainsaw that THF characters could have.

That first artifact sure sounds familiar....

[Kiton2]

Biomechs... That never, ever ends well.
If you're really lucky, you're just forced to literally ride your mother so your father can become lord of his own incestuous magical-realm.

If you're less lucky, City-Sized ovums begin to annihilate the planet by firing waves upon waves of spacetime-corroding sperm while assimilating all thought and matter as force reality itself into committing suicide unless you can violently collapse whatever area of the multiverse they're currently occupying all at once.

f***ing druids, man.


No one mentioned Bonejacks yet?

[Ssalarn]

Not one Akira reference so far? I'm surprised.

I really, really like this premise, and you seem to be pulling it off effectively and creatively. My questions are as follows, however:

1. Are there any hopes for high-level developments or maybe a prestige class for Evangelion or Pacific Rim-style Mechs?

Totes.



2. Will there be instances of psionics powering technology like with the technomancer?


Yes.



4. Could we see an alchemist or summoner archetype as well? I think the former fits particularly well.


Let me ruminate on it.



3. Could you make an official item that acts as a boombox? I want to blare some music while rocking the world as a wildwing.

I don't see why not. Maybe I'll build in a recording function so there's actually a mechanical reason to use it (I'm amused by the idea of someone listening to a vital message on a salvaged boombox found in a crashed spaceship, then a few moments of fuzzy mumbling, then Def Leppard suddenly blaring out).


HAHAHA! FINALLY! YES! ENFIN! IT BEGINS!

First off yes, Psitech is a better name. For one thing everyone shortens things and ETG just leads to medical questions.

This seems to be the rapidly forming consensus.



Second: I cannot wait to see the aegis and soulknife archetypes. Literally. I can't wait. gimme gimme gimme.

Working on it as quickly as I can. Quality control is important and all that.



That said. Time to be an annoying prat.

Wildwing
-Why is Energized Weaponry melee only? There's already a melee only charge boost, and a melee only heat-hawk boost.

Gonna be real with you - because I wrote it like 2 years ago and I hadn't yet developed my current distaste for arbitrary melee/ranged restrictions. I'll change it.



-Self-Destruct should automatically trigger safe ejection if you have the Ejection Seat upgrade.

Agreed and updated to reflect this.



However, the explosion being nothing but a reflex-half (hey there evasion) deal, it's hard to imagine it seeing much use. Perhaps clauses regarding being unable to avoid the blast if you've eaten the mech, or if it's grappled you or otherwise in your square?

Agreed and updated.



Mech rules
-Mechs seem to overall replace your armor and let you use your class abilities otherwise normally. This is good.

Glad you think so!



-Siege Weapons have a problem. A Colossal Quadruped CANNOT mount a HUGE sized ballista, because it would require THREE slots, and it only has two. Did you perhaps mean "+1 slot per size category above the mech"?

You'd need to grab additional slots with the Additional Weapon Slot mech enhancement. I'm considering adding an Extra Mech Enhancement feat to soften the impact of that choice being basically necessary.



-Changing Body Types will need a little more clarification. For size, in particular. Can you resize the mech when this is done (assuming this, and would be fine), or is re-sizing automatic (ie; a quadruped changed into a flyer at level 3-10 automatically becomes small and thus unusable by medium characters which is bad)?

Taken under advisement and being looked at for the best solution. Currently, the rules state "A pilot must choose a mech body type that is at least their size or larger", which would prevent a Medium or larger creature from selecting an aerial mech at all until 11th level (though they could get more limited flight earlier with the right enhancements on a biped or quadruped mech).



-Might want a few more enhancements as it levels... It's a... familiar track so it doesn't have to follow the "no empty levels" rules, but it's quite sparse, and in an average campaign will have at most a total of 3 enhancements and a size increase.


Noted and being worked on. The base mech chassis used to be attached to a class that gave you the option of a bonus feat or additional enhancement every few levels that used to help flesh that out. For the time being, I'll add that Extra Mech Enhancement feat I mentioned earlier.



Finally, you inadvertently solved the energy problem of an Augmented Blade through the Psi-Core Upgrade. No, not because of that battery mode (but it's the most efficient anything>>Charges conversion available, and that's a good thing)...
But because you've given it the Robot type: any weapons integrated to a robot are powered by its core. Arguably this means a weapon now fully assimilated with an augmented blade's psicrystal, which means whoever actually wrote the Technology Guide will probably have you hunted down for heresy!

HERESSSYYYYY!

I'll..... ruminate on this one.

[tekevil]

I like that the idea of a Rogue and Gunslinger archetype implies that normies are allowed to pilot mechs too :)

Also I like
Psitech: Expanded Technology Guide

It makes it obvious to everyone, even people who don't frequent DSP discussion, what this book is about.

[Kaidinah]

Oh! Another question. Can mechs be repaired with spells like Make Whole?

[Kiton2]

Regarding size: You'd already be grabbing flight WAY earlier than that through multiple ways anyway, whether Aegis, Spellcaster, Psionic Manifester of any kind, or just some sort of item. The Aerial type already has one less weapon slot as-is, so resizing around 3-4 for money is probably about right.

Plus if you're blown out of the sky before you can fly on your own, you're about to have a whole other set of problems depending on your altitude. You're at *least* down to 40% health or less (since the mech blew up at, far as I can understand, your HP+<Type> damage taken, after the splitting).

Kaidinah: If it's a construct, so far doesn't look like there's anything to prevent you, which makes make-whole and astral repair a handy thing to have. Repairs are already quite inexpensive, at 5HP on a DC10, so that's probably meant to be.


*Additional note: Robots, unlike standard constructs,gain feats,etc equal to HD. All constructs can be made as a Robot. Say hello to your new cohort.

[Prime32]

Rocket Punch (Ex): By spending 1 Boost point as a full round action, the mech pilot initiates a charge attack against an opponent that deals double damage on a successful melee attack. At 11th level, this damage bonus increases to triple damage. At 17th level, it increases to quadruple.
That is not a rocket punch. A rocket punch is a ranged attack. That is clearly Waverider Crash (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcBjbbs_B0A). :smallfurious::smalltongue:

But seriously, psychic powers are a major part of Gundam, and Gundam is a major part of mecha, so if you're not familiar with the franchise then I recommend that you find the biggest Gundam nerds you can. :smalltongue: At least have a read through the Newtype (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Newtype) and Psycommu (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Psycommu) articles on the Gundam wiki.

Anyway, some things that would seem appropriate here:

Funnels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o6jHojGFbU). Guns with small propulsion systems attached, held on a storage rack on the mech when not in use, which a psychic pilot can direct to attack from multiple directions at once (sometimes there are ways for non-psychics to use them, like an advanced targeting computer, but this technology is more advanced and more expensive). Funnels have a battery and must return to the mech to recharge, but Bits have internal generators, and Incoms (the budget option) are connected to the mech by a cable. There are also versions built around blades or shields instead of guns, and some kinds of funnels can assemble in various formations to project barriers or fire a larger beam.
Mechs that can transform between different body types mid-combat, with a feat that lets you transform faster.
Mechs that can hover a short distance above the ground, letting them travel across water and difficult terrain.
Aerial mechs that can serve as a mount to another mech of the same size (possibly even a mech of one size larger), by docking in as a jetpack.
Mechs that forcibly awaken psychic abilities in their pilot (allowing them to gain psionic focus and use equipment normally restricted to psionic characters) but cause backlash.
Mechs that feed a constant stream of data directly into the pilot's brain, giving them incredible piloting abilities but driving them berserk and forcing them to attack anything the system identifies as an enemy. Probably counts as a cursed item.
An easy way to have a psicrystal as a co-pilot, or even permanently built into your mech.
Mechs that can store motion data, allowing a martial adept to program low-level maneuvers into them so anyone can use them.
A "mechanic" archetype for one of the akashic classes, who gets a mech that he can customise from day to day (i.e. he gets refluffed veils that apply to his mech instead of himself). He can also customise other peoples' mechs to a minor degree.
A paladin archetype that summons a holy mech instead of a special mount.
An archetype or prestige class with some synonym of "red" in its name, which involves wearing a mask and being three times faster than everyone else.
An lv9 Telepathy-discipline power that contacts an orbital killsat to fire on a nearby location (1 round manifesting time, but extremely powerful). Possibly a mech with specialised equipment can fire the beam at themselves and absorb it to become supercharged for a brief time.
Astral Juggernaut (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/astral-juggernaut-power) update?

[Ssalarn]

Oh! Another question. Can mechs be repaired with spells like Make Whole?

Yes, they can.


[...]
Also I like
Psitech: Expanded Technology Guide

It makes it obvious to everyone, even people who don't frequent DSP discussion, what this book is about.

Yeah, I think that's the ticket.

[Kiton2]

Well we'll probably be seeing a lot more beam cannons to begin with (RIGHT? RIIIGHT?)
Someone activating Spritefall is nice, but someone else probably also wants to BE the Nothrung satellite.

And on that note:
Wavecannons. If you need help writing a charge system, don't be shy.

[MilleniaAntares]

I like it quite a bit so far.

I think one of the enhancements that should be added is one for extra passengers, similar to the Aegis customization. And maybe an upgrade to allow two people to pilot it, if you feel that's appropriate and mechanically feasible.

The funnel idea would be interesting, though I'm mostly imagining it as being like the psychic armory's panoply, using a mental stat. Heck, why not use it with a psi-core and have it work off its intelligence?

[Ssalarn]

[...]Heck, why not use it with a psi-core and have it work off its intelligence?

This idea intrigues me, and I'm going to let it bounce around in my head for a bit and see if I can't come up with something workable out of it.

[unseenmage]

Am currently playing through Iron Gods as an alchemist. We've home-brewed up a discovery to allow my alchemist to transform his homunculi and his construct mount into robot versions of themselves.
The extra pseudo-hp from the force fields helps to keep them relevant at later levels and having the chance to integrate a weapon helps too.

Only works on Constructs too. We basically treat the Robot subtype as a template.


Am looking forward to farming this book for new creations.

[Ssalarn]

Hey, so we've been spitballing ideas for what the actual name of this product will be, and I thought I'd see what you all think about a few of the front-runners:

Psitech: Technology Expanded

Cutting Edge: Technology Expanded

Techforge

Technoforge

Mechforge

Arcforge: The Book of Future Tech

Electroforge

Mind and Metal

Electric Lexicon: Technology Expanded

[unseenmage]

I like the first and the next to last name.

[Kaidinah]

Funnels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o6jHojGFbU). Guns with small propulsion systems attached, held on a storage rack on the mech when not in use, which a psychic pilot can direct to attack from multiple directions at once (sometimes there are ways for non-psychics to use them, like an advanced targeting computer, but this technology is more advanced and more expensive). Funnels have a battery and must return to the mech to recharge, but Bits have internal generators, and Incoms (the budget option) are connected to the mech by a cable. There are also versions built around blades or shields instead of guns, and some kinds of funnels can assemble in various formations to project barriers or fire a larger beam.terrain.
I think this video (https://youtu.be/pUU2UxERkGE) is the best visual representation of what we want from funnels (offense wise at least). I personally want to pilot the biggest, fattest mecha I can with the most funnels it can carry.


Hey, so we've been spitballing ideas for what the actual name of this product will be, and I thought I'd see what you all think about a few of the front runners...I think Psitech: Technology Expanded is the best of the names. Mostly because it was word-of-mouth advertised as such for so long that it will be called Psitech regardless of what its officially titled.

[Ssalarn]

We can mix and match a bit too, like "Arcforge: Technology Expanded".

[MilleniaAntares]

Psitech: Technology Expanded has my vote.

[Axebird]

I'm extremely iffy on the mechs so far. They seem to be designed with the same philosophy as the Paizo gunslinger: "It's okay if the damage is ludicrously out of left field and they don't do much anything else, because they have a crippling flaw."

They come with massive natural armor bonuses that stack fully with things like inertial armor, and offer gigantic ability score increases. For example, a level 1 biped comes with a +4 to Str, +2 to Dex, and a +4 natural armor bonus. At 6th level that's +6 to Str, +4 to Dex, and a +8 natural armor bonus. At 11th level, if you eschew the size increase (to keep this simple), you're up to +10 to Str, +8 to Dex, and a +10 natural armor bonus. At 16 you've got +14 to Str, +12 to Dex, and a +14 natural armor bonus. Finally at 20th you'd be sitting at +20 to Str, +18 to Dex, and +18 natural armor. The raw numerical benefits get wildly out of hand, and are kind of stunningly powerful even at 1st level. The natural armor is enough to put a character entirely off the RNG combined with non-armor sources of an armor bonus, and still match armor at low levels and greatly exceed it at high ones.

Of course, on the other hand, mechs are shockingly easy to destroy or shut down. At low levels they hold up just fine (a biped, again, has 15 hp, so you'd need to get beat down pretty hard pretty regularly for your mech to break). But their durability doesn't scale hardly at all- a 20th level biped has merely 90 hp, in an environment where getting blasted for around 180 damage and walking away from the fight is standard practice. That, combined with the difficulty of actually repairing one of these things (a full recovery is measured in days unless you expend large amounts of cash on make whole wands) means they're going to fall into one of two situations- you're either going to have a source of infinite out of combat healing for it and it'll bring hilariously busted physical offense to at least the beginning of every conflict, or you're not and despite its balance issues the frustration of upkeep is going to heavily discourage using it at all.

There are cool ideas here, but the benefits of 'wearing' a mech need to be dramatically toned down (and redirected primarily to interesting abilities instead of raw math bonuses), and the fragility of them needs to go. You probably don't need a mechanic for them getting damaged in use beyond having hp and hardness like any other piece of equipment.

Armor Penetration dramatically amping accuracy and the effects of enhancement bonuses (especially with melee weapons like the monofilament stilleto) is... another issue, which I don't really have time to write about at the moment.

[Almarck]

There gonna be Fighter and Gunslinger as well as PoW Archetype mech pilots planned for the future?

Granted, I know none of those classes are psychic, but still, it would be pretty cool I think.

[Halae]

Oh man, the psi-core looks like so much fun. As someone already pointed out, bonding with a weapon means it technically will constantly generate ammo for that weapon, and I'm totally fine with that; a thing to keep in mind is that requiring a manifester level of 3 still puts it out of the reach of most gunslingers, gunsmoke mystics, and so on. Seems like a nice boon for taking three feats.

I think I'll hold off until I see more archetypes though; that's what always interests me the most, though I'm definitely eager to see the sorts of stuff the mechs are going to get to be.

[MilleniaAntares]

I do echo Axebird's sentiments.

One way, perhaps, to balance the mechs more in line with WBL would be to have the strength/dex increases be enhancements, and to reduce the natural armor bonus (and perhaps change to armor bonus?) in preference of allowing them to be enchanted like armor? That may help with things like energy resistance, though others like Glamered and the summon-armor-from-a-distance one may need some limitations.

In addition, I'm not quite certain how necessary the manifester level requirements for Mech Piloting and Psi-Core Upgrade are. Perhaps having "manifesting level X OR BAB +X", or maybe some skill like Craft or Pilot? Otherwise, Aegis and Soulknife (with their respective psicrystal archetypes and options) could get left behind by something that doesn't quite "need" manifesting ability.

I like the Overdrive mechanic for the Wildwing, though I'm curious if using power points wouldn't also achieve the same function? Or maybe perhaps an ability to trade power points for Boost points?

[Kiton2]

Hm... Now that it's mentioned I can see a problem with durability. Bit too much +STR/DEX (keep'em untyped, but yeah, we'll want lower bonuses) not enough HP, even though it's halved.

Mech users want the mech to be most of their durability. Once you're forced to eject, you are (and should be) in trouble instead of at half health with all your capabilities untouched. Mech HP should be roughly increased by half, and if that much extra total damage would kill you, get an ejection seat.

Rather than natural armor, it may be more appropriate to grant Hardness? Letting crappy low grade attacks and scorching rays bounce off would make more sense than the (overpowered in some cases, utterly worthless against everything else because it ignores it) natural armor stuff.


The Armor Penetration scale appears to REPLACE 'touch ac' by the way, drastically *lowering* the accuracy of weapons such as firearms, while also adding a little boon of the same stuff to a few that really deserved it like pikes and crossbows.


Edit:
Actually, one of the main drawbacks we'd expect is surprisingly missing. Perhaps the base mech sizes should all go up by one (with aerial being limited to size BELOW it rather than size equal, as its primary drawback instead of "virtually no weapons"?). As is, you'd have a Large biped by 11th, which is fine if you've just gone Terminator with your power-armor, but kinda pathetic for the more gundamy fans (I personally will be more than happy with a Large flyer, since any bigger than that would make it hard to play Pyro to those volatile reactors down in dungeons).

Alternatively to more weapon slots, Itemwise I'm considering - if it's any help - a line of secondary weapons. Missiles, in other words, Using the Rocket Launcher and Descent as bases to work from.
Concussions, Homing, Flash (the useful kind), Smart-Plasma, Mercury, Earthshaker, Black-Hole...
You know, simple, medieval fantasy stuff.

[Taveena]

I haven't touched initiators yet, largely because I'm going to need to take a deep breath before jumping into the boiling stew of giant robots initiating.


Unrelated to your post, but related to the project-
Was brought to my attention that "PR" as an abbreviation for "Penetration Rating" is problematic since that abbreviation is already used for "Power Resistance", so I changed to "Armor Penetration" expressed as "AP".

It does sound a little bit absolutely impossible to balance.
Also, Armor Penetration is kinda weird because that's a now-removed stat in World of Warcraft that had a very strange relationship with its classes due to the wildly differing value for the entirely-mundanes, and then the magical beatsticks like Paladins and Death Knights who kept ignoring it entirely in the first place.

It's an interesting choice, but I've got to wonder exactly how powerful this will make the Heavy Pick in such games. The Lucerne Hammer and the Bec de Corbin are the only two weapons I know designed to penetrate armor - could have Armor Penetration replace the standard bonus to sundering? Or on TOP of the bonus to sundering. Sundering's not exactly a super-effective combat style.

[Milo v3]

Hey, so we've been spitballing ideas for what the actual name of this product will be, and I thought I'd see what you all think about a few of the front-runners:

I think "Psitech: Technology Expanded" or "Mind and Metal". Though "Cutting Edge: Technology Expanded" did immediately make me think of "Bleeding Edge: Technology Expanded" as a vampire technology guide concept... hmm...

[Ssalarn]

I'm extremely iffy on the mechs so far. They seem to be designed with the same philosophy as the Paizo gunslinger: "It's okay if the damage is ludicrously out of left field and they don't do much anything else, because they have a crippling flaw."

Have you actually mathed it out? The damage is pretty par for the course amongst base classes. The only mech that even grants any damage advantages is the quadruped, and the only weapons it can use natively require multiple rounds to aim and fire.



They come with massive natural armor bonuses that stack fully with things like inertial armor, and offer gigantic ability score increases.

They're also replacing your normal armor; most mech characters will actually have lower AC than the average frontliner at most levels of play. The bonuses it grants are actually designed to come in a bit under what the Synthesist (the nearest core analogue) can rock at similar levels.



For example, a level 1 biped comes with a +4 to Str, +2 to Dex, and a +4 natural armor bonus. At 6th level that's +6 to Str, +4 to Dex, and a +8 natural armor bonus. At 11th level, if you eschew the size increase (to keep this simple), you're up to +10 to Str, +8 to Dex, and a +10 natural armor bonus. At 16 you've got +14 to Str, +12 to Dex, and a +14 natural armor bonus. Finally at 20th you'd be sitting at +20 to Str, +18 to Dex, and +18 natural armor. The raw numerical benefits get wildly out of hand, and are kind of stunningly powerful even at 1st level.

Not even on par with a Synthesist at most levels, and similar to what a Druid can generate.



The natural armor is enough to put a character entirely off the RNG combined with non-armor sources of an armor bonus, and still match armor at low levels and greatly exceed it at high ones.

Any heavy armor class is going to be getting at least a +15 armor bonus to AC, generally with class features to stack and more options for boosting defenses.



Of course, on the other hand, mechs are shockingly easy to destroy or shut down. At low levels they hold up just fine (a biped, again, has 15 hp, so you'd need to get beat down pretty hard pretty regularly for your mech to break). But their durability doesn't scale hardly at all- a 20th level biped has merely 90 hp, in an environment where getting blasted for around 180 damage and walking away from the fight is standard practice.

Mechs are constructs, and as such gain bonus hit points when they gain size increases. You should end up with a fair chunk more than 90 hit points, unless you're an aerial mech (in which case you should end up with a bit more than 90).



That, combined with the difficulty of actually repairing one of these things (a full recovery is measured in days unless you expend large amounts of cash on make whole wands) means they're going to fall into one of two situations- you're either going to have a source of infinite out of combat healing for it and it'll bring hilariously busted physical offense to at least the beginning of every conflict, or you're not and despite its balance issues the frustration of upkeep is going to heavily discourage using it at all.

Ooorrrrrrr..... You invest in Craft (Mechanical), and you have a reasonable source of healing that scales right alongside the mech's increased hit points.



There are cool ideas here, but the benefits of 'wearing' a mech need to be dramatically toned down (and redirected primarily to interesting abilities instead of raw math bonuses), and the fragility of them needs to go. You probably don't need a mechanic for them getting damaged in use beyond having hp and hardness like any other piece of equipment.

Armor Penetration dramatically amping accuracy and the effects of enhancement bonuses (especially with melee weapons like the monofilament stilleto) is... another issue, which I don't really have time to write about at the moment.

Actually, with the exception of the few (generally extremely expensive) melee weapons that get an AP rating, Armor Penetration drastically lowers accuracy in a firearms heavy campaign, which one would assume any campaign using mechs would be.

[Ssalarn]

It does sound a little bit absolutely impossible to balance.
Also, Armor Penetration is kinda weird because that's a now-removed stat in World of Warcraft that had a very strange relationship with its classes due to the wildly differing value for the entirely-mundanes, and then the magical beatsticks like Paladins and Death Knights who kept ignoring it entirely in the first place.

It's an interesting choice, but I've got to wonder exactly how powerful this will make the Heavy Pick in such games. The Lucerne Hammer and the Bec de Corbin are the only two weapons I know designed to penetrate armor - could have Armor Penetration replace the standard bonus to sundering? Or on TOP of the bonus to sundering. Sundering's not exactly a super-effective combat style.

I actually left the lucerne hammer and bec de corbin alone, since they're pretty solid weapons in their own right. The core melee weapons that got suggested APs were ones that, in my experience, are generally extremely under-utilized despite being fairly thematic. A dwarven wildwing smashing a giant pick through an enemy mech is something that just kind of needs to happen and be supported mechanically. For ranged weapons, crossbows made the list because, obviously, they make sense and are pretty terrible normally.

[Almarck]

Actually, with the exception of the few (generally extremely expensive) melee weapons that get an AP rating, Armor Penetration drastically lowers accuracy in a firearms heavy campaign, which one would assume any campaign using mechs would be.

Is this because firearms are no longer assumed to resolve on touch AC and the AP ratings are what are used in place of said "touch AC" resolving? Or wait, am I reading something wrong?

I honestly have no idea what gunslingers resolved everything in close range as touch AC. It seemed a little weird.

[MilleniaAntares]

To be fair, some may choose not to increase the size of their mech for whatever reason. Maybe you can add in "your mech gets an extra X HP" to the effect of staying the same size?

I think "appropriate bonuses" for size increases should be clarified. Typically with monster advancement it's +8 strength -2 dex, whereas more balanced options like the psionic power Expansion are +2 strength, -2 dex.

In lieu of having enhancement bonuses double dip, perhaps you can have a weapon special ability that increases armor penetration by +2 for the cost of a +1 enhancement?

Edit:


Is this because firearms are no longer assumed to resolve on touch AC and the AP ratings are what are used in place of said "touch AC" resolving? Or wait, am I reading something wrong?

I honestly have no idea what gunslingers resolved everything in close range as touch AC. It seemed a little weird.
In the text itself:


AP and Existing Weapons- You may find that it makes a lot of sense to apply the AP system to some existing weapons, such as early firearms or crossbows. For your convenience, we’ve added a table below featuring a selection of commonly used weapons and firearms from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Ultimate Combat along with the appropriate AP for each weapon. Firearms using the AP system should not target touch AC or incur a misfire chance.

[Milo v3]

And now because of the engineer I'm stuck imagining the cryptic tattoos like omnitools from mass effect.

Edit: Hmm, just noticed Rogue is on the list but not cavalier. I'm surprised.

[Ssalarn]

And now because of the engineer I'm stuck imagining the cryptic tattoos like omnitools from mass effect.

Edit: Hmm, just noticed Rogue is on the list but not cavalier. I'm surprised.


Aaaannd..... Now I'm feeling like I have to add cavalier to the list. I may bump vitalist off and replace it with the cavalier; vitalist wasn't shaping up like I'd hoped anyways.

[Taveena]

I mean 'technology' is a weird phrase, here. Like it's unambiguously the theme but we've provably got biotech alongside more standard tech, and what with the Druid and Monk archetypes they're not psionic.

Incidentally, fair enough, they are pretty damn solid weapons, and that is a fun mental image.
(For what it's worth, I feeeel like if there was going to be some terrifying attempt to give the mechs to a Zealot they'd probably need to lose a lot of mech progression just because maneuvers can already do a lot of that, rather than a reduced manifestation progression - or maneuver progression.)

Still, Arcforge is a neat name and it does kinda imply the futuristic aspect of it by way of arc welding, buuut it doesn't really make the MEAT of the subject clear? Mechforge is pretty damn direct, but also very clear about what it IS - though it does leave out the other futury-techy-options, even if they are logical steps from there.

It's tricky, but I'm leaning Mechforge just for the clarity. It's Pathfinder, With Mechs.

[Ssalarn]

I mean 'technology' is a weird phrase, here. Like it's unambiguously the theme but we've provably got biotech alongside more standard tech, and what with the Druid and Monk archetypes they're not psionic.

Incidentally, fair enough, they are pretty damn solid weapons, and that is a fun mental image.
(For what it's worth, I feeeel like if there was going to be some terrifying attempt to give the mechs to a Zealot they'd probably need to lose a lot of mech progression just because maneuvers can already do a lot of that, rather than a reduced manifestation progression - or maneuver progression.)

Still, Arcforge is a neat name and it does kinda imply the futuristic aspect of it by way of arc welding, buuut it doesn't really make the MEAT of the subject clear? Mechforge is pretty damn direct, but also very clear about what it IS - though it does leave out the other futury-techy-options, even if they are logical steps from there.

It's tricky, but I'm leaning Mechforge just for the clarity. It's Pathfinder, With Mechs.


One of the reasons I kept slapping things like the ": Technology Expanded" tag on things was to help clarify a bit that there is a lot of material in there, not just mechs, or psitech, or what have you. Maybe "Mechforge: Technology Expanded" or "Mechforge: Technology Enhanced"?

[Taveena]

One of the reasons I kept slapping things like the ": Technology Expanded" tag on things was to help clarify a bit that there is a lot of material in there, not just mechs, or psitech, or what have you. Maybe "Mechforge: Technology Expanded" or "Mechforge: Technology Enhanced"?

Something like that conveys both the primary and secondary focus, so I think it works pretty well. If a more evocative name comes up then I say go for it, but I think it's my personal preference so far.

[Ssalarn]

The powers-what-be have weighed in, and it looks like we're going with "Arcforge: Technology Expanded" as the final name for the product that has been referred to as both Psitech and The Expanded Technology Guide.

[khadgar567]

is there a chance gain aerial with medium person stats
maybe like
aerial
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed -10 ft., fly 30 ft.; Attack Wing x2 (1d8); Melee Reach 10 ft.; Ability Scores Dex +6 ; Bonus Hit points: 5 hp; Hover the mech can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check; Weapon Affinity ranged; Weapon Slots 2

[Milo v3]

Hmm.... I just realized that my akashic cybernetics are definitely too primitive in flavour to fit this book without dissonance. Hmmm.... *Starts trying to thinking up forgeborn feats*

Edit: And now I have no idea whether to place this in my DSP Forge folder or DSP Psionics folder.

[Ssalarn]

Hmm.... I just realized that my akashic cybernetics are definitely too primitive in flavour to fit this book without dissonance. Hmmm.... *Starts trying to thinking up forgeborn feats*

Edit: And now I have no idea whether to place this in my DSP Forge folder or DSP Psionics folder.

The two big things I have lined up for akasha are:

1) Akasha as an alternate technology system. Basically a short section on refluffing akasha as cybernetics with some classic veils refluffed as things like jetpacks and cryosuits, and a selection of new veils written specifically for that section.

2) Some additional rules for keeping akasha as is but using essence to juice the standard cybernetics while risking fatigue or malfunction.

1 is definitely happening, 2 is more of a "if I have space, and if I don't change my mind and decide it's crazy to spend page space on two different ways of doing almost the same thing".

[Almarck]

Edit: And now I have no idea whether to place this in my DSP Forge folder or DSP Psionics folder.

Perhaps a Misc folder? Specifically for "crossover" works that are multitopic

[Tuvarkz]

Initiating Mechas, please. I need this so much.

[Axebird]

Have you actually mathed it out? The damage is pretty par for the course amongst base classes. The only mech that even grants any damage advantages is the quadruped, and the only weapons it can use natively require multiple rounds to aim and fire.

I'm not talking about using firearms. Paizo firearms aren't worth using unless you're getting an ability score to damage from somewhere, and even then it's iffy. I'm talking about using bog standard melee weapons and composite bows, which are explicitly called out as an option. Getting a raw bonus to Strength is an accuracy and damage advantage. I'm kind've baffled that you think a +4 increase to your Strength (from a 1st level Biped) isn't a damage advantage. FFS, that's what barbarians get when they rage.


They're also replacing your normal armor; most mech characters will actually have lower AC than the average frontliner at most levels of play. The bonuses it grants are actually designed to come in a bit under what the Synthesist (the nearest core analogue) can rock at similar levels.

Any heavy armor class is going to be getting at least a +15 armor bonus to AC, generally with class features to stack and more options for boosting defenses.

Using the same breakpoints without size adjustment as before:

At 1st level, a character with a biped mech has a +2 natural armor bonus and a +2 bonus to Dexterity. This is functionally equivalent to wearing a suit of studded leather with no ACP or Max Dex.
At 6th level, they have a +6 natural armor bonus and a +4 bonus to Dexterity. This is functionally equivalent to a +2 breastplate (with no ACP, Max Dex, or movement penalty).
At 11th level, they have a +10 natural armor bonus and a +8 bonus to Dexterity. This is functionally equivalent to +5 full plate (with no ACP, Max Dex, or movement penalty).
At 16th level, they have a +14 natural armor bonus and a +12 bonus to Dexterity. This is functionally equivalent to +11 full plate (if such a thing were allowed to exist, and had no ACP, Max Dex, or movement penalty).
Finally, at 20th level they have a +18 natural armor bonus and a +16 bonus to Dexterity. Which, defense-wise, is like wearing +17 full plate, that doesn't have any ACP, Max Dex, or movement penalty.

Oh, and those are entirely stackable with inertial armor (both archetypes have it) or, if you feel like dumping money in a dumpster, bracers of armor. If you don't have an effect to stack with it you end up 2 AC behind a frontliner that bought scale mail or chainmail at first level (and equal them at 2nd level), and if you do have an armor bonus to stack with it you end up ahead immediately.


Not even on par with a Synthesist at most levels, and similar to what a Druid can generate.

Uh... what? Okay, starting with the synthesist, you're super wrong on both counts (assuming you're talking about the old summoner, not the nerfed version in Unchained).

Assuming that the synthesist puts as many points as possible into increased natural armor, Strength, and size increases (being generous and not assuming they need to spend any points on limbs or natural weapons), and that we conservatively start a mech pilot with a 14 in Str and Dex in a biped (putting level bumps in Str), here's how they match up.

Note that the synthesist is a quadruped. There aren't any other options, as that's is the only one that grants pounce when it becomes necessary. If you assume it's a biped instead, its Strength is 2 higher and Dexterity is 2 lower.

1st Level
Synthesist
Str 16, Dex 14, Nat AC +4
Mech
Str 18, Dex 16, Nat AC +4

6th Level
Synthesist
Str 20, Dex 20, Nat AC +8
Mech
Str 20, Dex 18, Nat AC +6

11th Level
Medium Synthesist
Str 22, Dex 22, Nat AC +14
Medium Mech
Str 26, Dex 22, Nat AC +10

Large Synthesist
Str 30, Dex 18, Nat AC +12
Large Mech
Str 32, Dex 20, Nat AC +12

16th Level
Synthesist
Str 26, Dex 26, Nat AC +20
Mech
Str 32, Dex 26, Nat AC +14

Huge Synthesist
Str 40, Dex 18, Nat AC +19
Large Mech
Str 38, Dex 22, Nat AC +16

20th Level
Synthesist
Str 30, Dex 30, Nat AC +26
Mech
Str 34, Dex 30, Nat AC +18

Huge Synthesist
Str 44, Dex 18, Nat AC +29
Huge Mech
Str 48, Dex 22, Nat AC +18

So there are some numbers for this particular comparison. Mechs match or exceed comparable synthesists in Strength at every comparison point aside from the 13-19 range at increased sizes (where mechs are slightly behind), match or exceed Dex at every level aside from just after 6th (eidolons get access to another ability boost 2 levels before mechs match it). Synthesists and mechs start equal on natural AC before synthesists pull ahead (though mechs have access to armor bonuses of up to +15 from inertial armor, while mage armor is a constant +4 and bracers of armor are an expensive way to get up to +8).

It wouldn't look like there are any issues on the surface (aside from both of them having nutty numbers when combined with equipment)... except that aside from assumed staples like heroism and haste, this is all synthesists have. The rabbit hole goes way deeper for mechs, since they're tied to manifesting and have access to some of the amazing psionic buffs like psychofeedback (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychofeedback) and battle transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/battle-transformation). Not to mention other class features that further improve mech combat, like the Wildwing adding their Wisdom modifier to all attacks, saves, and checks.

As for druids? The comparison is distant at best. Wildshape can't even touch the ability score or AC adjustments provided by a mech (at best outputing +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Nat AC as a huge animal or +8 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Nat AC as a huge earth elemental), and druids don't have any great buffs for themselves on their spell list (they used to have access to atavism and animal growth for themselves through a feat, but it was errata'd away a few months ago).


Mechs are constructs, and as such gain bonus hit points when they gain size increases. You should end up with a fair chunk more than 90 hit points, unless you're an aerial mech (in which case you should end up with a bit more than 90).

Gaining massive size that you can't get rid of on demand is more of a burden than a benefit in most cases. How these bonus hitpoints actually work is also undefined, since the existing mechs establish you're not using standard construct hit points from size. If we assume that when size upgrades you ignore that and go back to standard hitpoints from size, you get 105 or 115 hp instead. Which isn't a whole lot better.


Ooorrrrrrr..... You invest in Craft (Mechanical), and you have a reasonable source of healing that scales right alongside the mech's increased hit points.

I'm aware of that. I mentioned that it's a recovery time measured in days, which renders it infeasible in most campaigns (which don't give you days of downtime between each and every combat encounter).



Actually, with the exception of the few (generally extremely expensive) melee weapons that get an AP rating, Armor Penetration drastically lowers accuracy in a firearms heavy campaign, which one would assume any campaign using mechs would be.

Firearms, once again, aren't the issue here. They're underwhelming even if you just shoot at touch AC without misfire being involved, and this doesn't help. I also wasn't aware that 8 gp was considered extremely expensive- with armor penetration in play there's very little reason to use weapons that aren't a heavy pick, and those are mostly the existence of light picks and later on the monofilament stiletto.

There are extremely few characters that won't have an armor bonus, natural armor bonus, or shield bonus, and those are all things that scale up with level faster than armor penetration does. As a result, it doesn't really function as 'armor penetration' of any kind, and more of a raw accuracy bonus that very rarely doesn't apply, mostly only when you happen to be fighting ghosts or shadows or whatever. That accuracy bonus is exacerbated by increasing at the same rate as enhancement bonuses, effectively doubling the accuracy increase from putting enhancement bonuses on weapons.

[Milo v3]

I just noticed wildwing doesn't replace Martial Power or Twisting Path despite them no longer working.

[Halae]

By the way, can we have a sidebar/variant regarding Implantation of cybernetics? the problem with cyber stuff is that you can't even get a reasonable amount because you have to be absolutely herculean and a genius at the same time to get more than a single arm and one other thing replaced, and that's ludicrously limiting given the cost of the cyberware itself. This seems like a perfect opportunity to fix that.

Also! Idea for a Techno Artifact: Starship Cannon.


Initiating Mechas, please. I need this so much.
oh yes, most definitely. I'm currently imagining a pair of biped mechs dueling with giant flaming swords.

... or a quad mech shaped like a wolf in dueling with a fighter jet.

Speaking of mechs though, I'm in the camp of "These things need to be more durable", or at least can be customized to be more durable. I imagine there should be an measurable different between a tank-built mech (lots of bonus HP, hardness, possibly DR on top of that) and an agile mech (like most fliers would be). I don't want them to invalidate standard combatants entirely, but there should be a clear and appreciable difference between what the pilot is capable of inside the mech and what they're capable of outside it.

[Tohsaka Rin]

It's funny, people keep bringing up Gundam (don't get me wrong, I love that, but nobody mentions Bits?) but I had a different Vision...


http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/8543/681008-promo_3.jpg

http://www.otakuarica.cl/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/escaflowne-1.jpg


Because if you're gonna have giant robots in a swords and sorcery kind of game, clearly, y-

Ah! We need giant capes!

[Kiton2]

Don't say artifact. You can't get artifacts. It's senseless to go "hey this would be great, add this "sword of kas" thing to work into their builds".

Tosaka_Rin
Well, many people say gundam, and we do have to deal with that, but personally what I've been envisioning is a little bit more...
http://sparrow.o.oo7.jp/build2/r100-02.jpg

[Prime32]

Speaking of mechs though, I'm in the camp of "These things need to be more durable", or at least can be customized to be more durable. I imagine there should be an measurable different between a tank-built mech (lots of bonus HP, hardness, possibly DR on top of that) and an agile mech (like most fliers would be). I don't want them to invalidate standard combatants entirely, but there should be a clear and appreciable difference between what the pilot is capable of inside the mech and what they're capable of outside it.Eh, rather than make the mechs themselves more durable, I think it would work better if they were tied to the pilot's life force (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Synchronization), so that damage is split between the mech and the pilot. Maybe with some items, class features or feats that let you divert damage from your mech to yourself, or avoid an attack that would kill you by ejecting from your mech and letting it take the hit.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Well, many people say gundam, and we do have to deal with that, but personally what I've been envisioning is a little bit more...


Oh no, don't do that. Don't bring the delicious Death Star-grade firepower of R-Type in here, and expect the DMs to not weep in terror. One does not simply cram a battleship wave-motion gun into a small star fighter...

Where the hell is Boromir?


https://i.imgflip.com/nam6r.jpg

Oh, there he is.

[stack]

Throwing my vote in for Psitech as far as names go. Need to take a close reading, but it looks cool.

The base free ability of the SoP creation sphere is so much better when you have mechs to fix.

[Ssalarn]

I'm not talking about using firearms. Paizo firearms aren't worth using unless you're getting an ability score to damage from somewhere, and even then it's iffy. I'm talking about using bog standard melee weapons and composite bows, which are explicitly called out as an option.
Composite bows do not get an AP rating, they already get STR to damage. So, really the issue is the pick, apparently, a weapon I've never actually seen used in play because it's generally not great. Does anyone else think this is a problem?

The stiletto is an expensive technological item.


I just noticed wildwing doesn't replace Martial Power or Twisting Path despite them no longer working.

I'll look into that and adjust as necessary.



Eh, rather than make the mechs themselves more durable, I think it would work better if they were tied to the pilot's life force (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Synchronization), so that damage is split between the mech and the pilot. Maybe with some items, class features or feats that let you divert damage from your mech to yourself, or avoid an attack that would kill you by ejecting from your mech and letting it take the hit.
These options already are built into the system.

[RolkFlameraven]

OK, I've got to make a campaign where the boss is a Squad Leader that has been terrorizing people with 'ghost mechs'. The fact that he could, with some form of scrying, have 5 mechs under his remote control while on a completely different plane of exsitance is just too much fun not to use for a BBEG

[Mehangel]

Composite bows do not get an AP rating, they already get STR to damage. So, really the issue is the pick, apparently, a weapon I've never actually seen used in play because it's generally not great. Does anyone else think this is a problem?

I actually dont want to see composite bows gaining an AP rating. I however would like to see Armor Penetrating Ammo (for both arrows and bolts) with AP rating of 1, which stack with a crossbows AP rating.

[Ssalarn]

I actually dont want to see composite bows gaining an AP rating.

They won't and don't, was the point I was making there.



I however would like to see Armor Penetrating Ammo (for both arrows and bolts) with AP rating of 1, which stack with a crossbows AP rating.

Is "burrowing" currently used as a weapon enhancement name? I could see a burrowing enhancement that provides an AP rating.

[Kaidinah]

Perhaps AP scaling could be slowed down? It ramps up pretty fast. Maybe base it on half the overall bonus if an item (not the enhancement bonus) instead of the current scaling.

Also, getting AP to only your first range increment feels like an undue nerf to advanced firearms when they previously were effective at 5 increments. I recommend only keeping primitive fire arms at 1 increment and letting crossbows and advanced fire arms be at 5 increments.

[Ssalarn]

Perhaps AP scaling could be slowed down? It ramps up pretty fast. Maybe base it on half the overall bonus if an item (not the enhancement bonus) instead of the current scaling.

Also, getting AP to only your first range increment feels like an undue nerf to advanced firearms when they previously were effective at 5 increments. I recommend only keeping primitive fire arms at 1 increment and letting crossbows and advanced fire arms be at 5 increments.

Over at the Paizo forums, there's a discussion about breaking up AP so that instead of being weapon by weapon in the general rules, we break it down to something like:

"When converting existing firearms, use the following guidelines [...]
Early firearms: AP 1
Advanced firearms: AP 2
Technological weapons: AP 3
[...]"

What would people think of that?

[stack]

Engineer - structured devastation: language for attaching traps needs a check, think the sentence got incompletely reworked.

Should Overdrive have an action cost specified for expending focus? I presume its free.

Could afterburner allow you to spend less points for a lesser effect? Might require too much math.

Squad Leader - collective - there are instanced where it says mech pilot instead of squad leader

Maybe we'll finally see an archetype that makes siege weapons really useful to PCs.

[unseenmage]

Over at the Paizo forums, there's a discussion about breaking up AP so that instead of being weapon by weapon in the general rules, we break it down to something like:

"When converting existing firearms, use the following guidelines [...]
Early firearms: AP 1
Advanced firearms: AP 2
Technological weapons: AP 3
[...]"

What would people think of that?

That I like. Rules being easier to rote remember than charts and graphs at a game table.


Has any thought been given to mechs wearing mechs? I mean as Constructs its certainly feasible. I think.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Has any thought been given to mechs wearing mechs? I mean as Constructs its certainly feasible. I think.

i too, wonder if we can go full Guren Lagann with this book...

[unseenmage]

i too, wonder if we can go full Guren Lagann with this book...

I mean my first thought was to stick an awakened Golem in one of these things. Then I wondered about the awakened Animated Object corpse of a mech piloting a mech.

But yeah, Gurren Lagan minus the spiral power would be cool.

[Kiton2]

You'd still want some exceptions for AP though. Some weapons were just plain great at it after all. Others not so much.
Perhaps a mix of the two, then. "If it's not on this table specifically, the following categories have...".

[Ssalarn]

It has been brought to my attention that the PsyWar archetype could probably use a better name than "Wildwing", particularly since you could build one all the way to 20th level and never actually have a flying mech (certainly not one that uses wings).

Some suggestions we're kicking around include-

Machine Warrior
Mechanical Warrior
Strider
Overdriver
Daring Pilot
Striker
Kamikaze
Metalmind (this just feels like something someone else has copywritten; let me know if that's the case)


And I'm going to be honest, I'm a fan of exactly 0 of them.

Any suggestions?


Also, putting the finishing touches on the Dread archetype (we're going with Eclipse as the archetype name) now. Will have it up shortly.

[Kiton2]

Metalmind reminds me of that old old game Metal Mech.

[PsyBomb]

I rather like the Mech-Knight or Tech-Knight options

[Ninjaxenomorph]

How much support for Paizo-published classes are we going to see for archetypes? I think a cavalier mech pilot would be interesting. Or if you want to double down on the Mecha genre, a samurai archetype. I do like Resolve...

[Ssalarn]

How much support for Paizo-published classes are we going to see for archetypes? I think a cavalier mech pilot would be interesting. Or if you want to double down on the Mecha genre, a samurai archetype. I do like Resolve...

I've been letting cavalier and samurai kind of roll around in my head for a bit. I'm partially inclined to give such an archetype a motorcycle that can be upgraded with mech enhancements instead of an actual mech (or lock him in to a wheeled quadruped). I'd probably see if it wasn't something that I could make accessible to both classes, maybe replacing challenge and order.

On the PsyWar archetype-

What are people's thoughts on "Reactor Knight"?

It's the first one that two members of the DSP team have agreed on.

[stack]

None of those names are really striking me, though I vote kamikaze be stricken from the list for not working at all.

[Kiton2]

Samurai
Well if you're gonna start giving 'The Sword that Cleaves Evil' a giant mech, that pretty much *requires* we start mass-producing fighters with wave-cannons just so other classes can keep up. A sword can only get SO colossal before there just stops being things it cannot cut.

[Ssalarn]

None of those names are really striking me, though I vote kamikaze be stricken from the list for not working at all.

It probably sounds better in my head because I know that overdrives used to have a bigger downside than expending your focus. They do have an Ejection Seat and Self Destruct option though.

Reactor Knight seems to be showing the most universal appeal.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Motorcycle cavalier/samurai is even better. Carry on.

[Sayt]

I find myself a day late and three pages behind!

Project looks very cool for now. AP seems on a whole better than the "LoltouchAC" system UC firearms has in place.

Under energized weapons, "Electrical damage" should read electricity damage.

Also, this project has given me some reason to get my own Tech-y Homebrew class up to scratch to see if I can get it submitted (The class itself is basically finished, I just need to figure out how to make the autonomous drone/totally-not-an-animal-companion work, based on Axton and Roland from Borderlands.)

>Rubs hands together in glee<

Edit:

"Reactor knight? Well what's'e reactin to?" Sorry, skit comedy aside, Reactor knight is okay, though I'd push for something like "Knight Mechanist"

[Ssalarn]

[...]

Under energized weapons, "Electrical damage" should read electricity damage.

[...]

Thanks for the catch, fixing it now!

[Thealtruistorc]

Just a question that would expand mecha beyond just classes:

Would it be possible to hijack other people's mecha, even if you yourself don't have a mecha or class based upon it? I would like to at least attempt ripping some enemy out of their machine and stealing it from them, maybe with a Knowledge (Engineering), Disable Device, or maybe even UMD check.

Also, it would be nice to have classless mecha as highly expensive technological items, maybe with a limited number of customizations or other limitations that would make them slightly less potent than taking them as a class.

[Ssalarn]

Just a question that would expand mecha beyond just classes:

Would it be possible to hijack other people's mecha, even if you yourself don't have a mecha or class based upon it? I would like to at least attempt ripping some enemy out of their machine and stealing it from them, maybe with a Knowledge (Engineering), Disable Device, or maybe even UMD check.

Also, it would be nice to have classless mecha as highly expensive technological items, maybe with a limited number of customizations or other limitations that would make them slightly less potent than taking them as a class.

Classless mecha that are more like purchasable or craftable options will be added soon. The class-based ones just got priority because they'll need the most playtest time.

Technically speaking, there's nothing stopping someone with the right tools from stealing an unpiloted mech, but I hadn't really thought about removing someone from a mech they're actively piloting. I'll let it roll around for a bit, see what I come up with.

[Prime32]

The PsiWar archetype seems like the kind of guy who pushes the envelope, so what about "Record Breaker" or something along those lines? "Ace Pilot"? "Master Pilot"?

Emphasising the reactor makes it sound like you've got one of those amazing Black Box reactors that's quasi-sentient, can warp space and/or time, and is a major plot element of the campaign.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I mean my first thought was to stick an awakened Golem in one of these things. Then I wondered about the awakened Animated Object corpse of a mech piloting a mech.

But yeah, Gurren Lagan minus the spiral power would be cool.

Isnt there a construct modification that lets you wear it as armor? Get yourself a mech, then build a construct large enough to fit the mech in.

or other options of course, but mechs in mechs in mechs is always a goal to strife for.

[Kiton2]

You do want to limit hijacking especially on class mechs being piloted: if all it takes is some CMB to grapple the guy out of his bot, the whole mech ability has just been negated harder than a rogue in a party of real classes.

[stack]

Is the psywar archetype taking the place of the pilot class you have mentioned previously?

[ElderLucian]

The mech table for the str/dex bonus has it starting at 5th level while the description has it starting at 4th.

[Sayt]

Considering your Average Mech gets 5 enhancements, I'd consider making the Targetting/Munitions Upgrade/Armour Plating lines to be one enhancement each, and too have them scale. automatically as your Effective Mech level increases.

Also, might I suggest an "Ammunition Hoppers" enhancement that gives automatic 'reloading' and ammunition capacity to ranged weapons such as javelins and crossbows?

Also, a clarification on whether a single ranged weapon is capable of firing and reloading a two-handed ranged weapon (Such as bow or crossbow) could be a good thing to have.


For instance, a Bipedal Mecha with a Heavy Crossbow in each weapon slot. Is he capable of reloading? How do weapon slots interact with handed-ness and wielding? Is a singular weapon slot a grip that can hold one 1-handed weapon, or is it an autonomous mounting that can control and fire a given weapon independently of the limb-layout of the pilot?


Also, further ideas: A Kasatha Mech-pilot archetype that specialies in multiwielding weaponsm possibly witha unique enhancement allowing multiple weapons to be attacked with in a round.

That, and I just realised that you could make a passable go at Tau Battlesuits from 40k. I am so there for that.

[unseenmage]

Any chance we'll get city mechs like those found in the, beautifully fluffed but horribly crunched, DragonMech books?
I really enjoy that gameworld and the idea of city mechs build with magic and engineering in a pre-industrial era. But fighting their poor rules and even poorer formatting is migraine inducing torment.

I had strongly considered converting all their stuff to PF (and reformatting the content while I was at it) then posting the resultant PDF to the forums but the thought of fighting that nonsense always kept that project firmly on a back burner.

[Ssalarn]

The mech table for the str/dex bonus has it starting at 5th level while the description has it starting at 4th.
Sorry, I'll get that fixed. Tweaked the table, missed the entry.

[Axebird]

Composite bows do not get an AP rating, they already get STR to damage. So, really the issue is the pick, apparently, a weapon I've never actually seen used in play because it's generally not great. Does anyone else think this is a problem?

The stiletto is an expensive technological item.

Dude what? That has nothing to do with my post. I didn't suggest anything about composite bows having a penetration rating, and the little bit you decided to respond to (while completely ignoring everything else) was in reference to mech combat abilities.

[Thealtruistorc]

You know, with all the talk about giant mecha, I'm surprised there has been no mention of the technologically infused series that invented psionics in the first place (hint (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G5zQW4TinQ)). It would be neat to see a few items based upon what they do in there.

For example, a pharmaceutical that grants the wild talent feat to a character injected with it (there would be a limit, of course), or perhaps cybernetics/pharmaceuticals designed to limit psionic effects (maybe a poison that drops your manifester level temporarily, similar to how drugs were used to keep the children's powers from growing out of control). Maybe motorbikes could be added, or perhaps (a tribute to one of the most iconic panels in the book) a power that allows you to pilot a vehicle effortlessly with telekinesis.

Also, a 9th-level nuke power, because Pathfinder needs at least one equivalent to Apocalypse from the Sky.

[Kiton2]

I'd really not go so far as to say it invented psionics. Despite their 'naming' schemes, most of that stuff comes straight out of ancient epics like Mahabharata. We only today associate it with sci-fi because of the naming conventions that came in 2nd edition. Were it not for those, the entire psionics system had and has always been a closer analogue to the magic used even in bloody Forgotten Realms novels than any amount of vancian casting *ever* has outside of the actual vance books (in which it is admittedly rather badass).

Using your will and 'inner/spiritual force' to change the world around you, with limits based more on exhaustion or inner capacity was as much the province of ancient heroic epics as of gods and magicians... at least until the 1970s!


Edit
In regards to 9th level nuke powers, well, I've already made *my* suggestion as to what that ought to be (less a power and more of a weapon system or energy-weapon special discipline), since hey, wizards and clerics can make entire new planes of existence, so nothing wrong with a guy with a giant robot being able to punch holes through those!
http://imgur.com/BVolzE8

[Ssalarn]

Is the psywar archetype taking the place of the pilot class you have mentioned previously?

We decided to skip having a new base class entirely, and instead just use a base set of mech rules that can be applied to any archetype. Since I'd already written up so many mechanics for it, I've cannibalized many of them and worked them into some of them archetypes.


You know, with all the talk about giant mecha, I'm surprised there has been no mention of the technologically infused series that invented psionics in the first place (hint (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G5zQW4TinQ)). It would be neat to see a few items based upon what they do in there.

For example, a pharmaceutical that grants the wild talent feat to a character injected with it (there would be a limit, of course), or perhaps cybernetics/pharmaceuticals designed to limit psionic effects (maybe a poison that drops your manifester level temporarily, similar to how drugs were used to keep the children's powers from growing out of control). Maybe motorbikes could be added, or perhaps (a tribute to one of the most iconic panels in the book) a power that allows you to pilot a vehicle effortlessly with telekinesis.[...]

Most of these are things that are already in some stage of development :smallwink:



Dude what? That has nothing to do with my post. I didn't suggest anything about composite bows having a penetration rating[...]

Yes, you did.

I'm not talking about using firearms. Paizo firearms aren't worth using unless you're getting an ability score to damage from somewhere, and even then it's iffy. I'm talking about using bog standard melee weapons and composite bows, which are explicitly called out as an option.

See? Right there.

Also, maybe don't get so offended. I didn't respond to the rest of your post because some of it was valid, some of it wasn't, and all of it was math. So instead of clogging up an entire screen's worth of thread space with addressing which points were which, I ran the numbers you provided, garnered feedback from other forums, and updated the playtest accordingly. I even removed the picks from the table, not because I believe they're an issue, but so you wouldn't derail this thread arguing something that is essentially irrelevant. I said right in the OP that updates would be coming hot and fast, and I would expect people to understand that that means they should be constantly looking into the playtest if they want to see the results of their feedback.

[MilleniaAntares]

I've been letting cavalier and samurai kind of roll around in my head for a bit. I'm partially inclined to give such an archetype a motorcycle that can be upgraded with mech enhancements instead of an actual mech (or lock him in to a wheeled quadruped). I'd probably see if it wasn't something that I could make accessible to both classes, maybe replacing challenge and order.
Ahem. (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_fuunsaiki_5186.jpg)

:D

Also drills would be an interesting weapon. Especially if they could be used to go underground and stuff...

[Kiton2]

Ahem. (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_fuunsaiki_5186.jpg)

:D

Also drills would be an interesting weapon. Especially if they could be used to go underground and stuff...

Problem with that image: Your bonded mount can only do this if its feats and/or class levels are used to obtain a mech. Now I'm not saying that's *impossible*... But it's probably easier to find someone to be the ambiguously-insinuative Trombe to your burly Daizengar instead.

are we talking arm-mounted plasma drill hurricanes here, or knee-mounted drills from the tank that forms your feet?
:D

[Sayt]

Rocket Punch, I think, needs to be specified to not stack with Lances and Spirited charge, otherwise that damage could get stupid quick.

Also, Psi-Core Upgrade and Awakened Staff both reference "Electrical damage".

[Axebird]

See? Right there.

The context of that was a claim about mechs not granting damage advantages, not armor penetration. You responded about weapons that take multiple rounds to load and fire, when I was talking about just hitting things with swords and shooting bows.



Also, maybe don't get so butthurt. I didn't respond to the rest of your post because some of it was valid, some of it wasn't, and all of it was math. So instead of clogging up an entire screen's worth of thread space with addressing which points were which, I ran the numbers you provided, garnered feedback from other forums, and updated the playtest accordingly. I even removed the picks from the table, not because I believe they're an issue, but so you wouldn't derail this thread arguing something that is essentially irrelevant. I said right in the OP that updates would be coming hot and fast, and I would expect people to understand that that means they should be constantly looking into the playtest if they want to see the results of their feedback.

Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).

I don't want to come off as aggressive, but I can't really tell when the document is updated (or exactly what was altered without looking through everything, since there's no change log) without spending time combing through it, so without any indication in this thread that came off as a complete dismissal of everything I said. You can understand why that would be frustrating. :smallwink:

[Doc_Maynot]

*Drops in. Drools. Begins reading.*



Yeah, the archetypes I've got in some stage of development right now are-
Aegis
Vitalist (possibly - this one may be cut if I can't nail down the mechanics)


So.... What are they looking like? Like the angle you are going with them? I only ask because they are my two favorite DSP classes.

[Kaidinah]

Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).
To be fair, I think it was being balanced against the chainsaw melee weapon in the paizo technology guide, which expends 1 charge every hour, has 10 charges per battery, and is a 3d6 18-20/x2 crit weapon that also grants a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.

[Ssalarn]

To be fair, I think it was being balanced against the chainsaw melee weapon in the paizo technology guide, which expends 1 charge every hour, has 10 charges per battery, and is a 3d6 18-20/x2 crit weapon that also grants a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.

Pretty sure the chainsaw is 3d6 18-20/x3 that grants a circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks. Could be misremembering though. Tech weapons are really powerful.

[Ssalarn]

*Drops in. Drools. Begins reading.*

So.... What are they looking like? Like the angle you are going with them? I only ask because they are my two favorite DSP classes.

Aegis cobbles together his suit and mech into a technoplasmic monstrosity.

Vitalist is.... Basically, the more mechs in the party, the better he is, allowing them to fuse their mechs together and allow a single fused creature to receive multiple turns based on the number of piloted mechs. Kind of like the Reverse Flash of the Tactician archetype's capstone.


The context of that was a claim about mechs not granting damage advantages, not armor penetration. You responded about weapons that take multiple rounds to load and fire, when I was talking about just hitting things with swords and shooting bows.




Thank you. It looks a lot better now, though I'm still worried about the effects of armor penetration on melee weapons (a +5 monofilament stiletto is still attacking at, effectively, a +8 higher bonus than, say, a +5 adamantine kukri that has close to the same cost but is dramatically weaker).

I don't want to come off as aggressive, but I can't really tell when the document is updated (or exactly what was altered without looking through everything, since there's no change log) without spending time combing through it, so without any indication in this thread that came off as a complete dismissal of everything I said. You can understand why that would be frustrating. :smallwink:

No worries. Tone is really hard to judge through the filter of the internet. Just know that I always listen and take feedback into account, especially when someone, as you did, takes the time to run the numbers or report playtest feedback.

[Doc_Maynot]

Vitalist is.... Basically, the more mechs in the party, the better he is, allowing them to fuse their mechs together and allow a single fused creature to receive multiple turns based on the number of piloted mechs. Kind of like the Reverse Flash of the Tactician archetype's capstone.

I'm picturing Power Ranger mechs joining into a super mech. I can dig it.

[Axebird]

The chainsaw from the Technology Guide is, when activated as a standard action, a two handed deadly, distracting weapon that deals 3d6 damage and has a critical range of 18-20/x2. It also grants a +2 morale bonus to Intimidate checks, and a -10 penalty to Stealth checks.

So meaningfully it's a falchion that deals 5.5 more damage on average, takes a standard action to turn on after you draw it, and has some fluffy bits that don't really matter.

[Kaidinah]

The chainsaw from the Technology Guide is, when activated as a standard action, a two handed deadly, distracting weapon that deals 3d6 damage and has a critical range of 18-20/x2. It also grants a +2 morale bonus to Intimidate checks, and a -10 penalty to Stealth checks.

So meaningfully it's a falchion that deals 5.5 more damage on average, takes a standard action to turn on after you draw it, and has some fluffy bits that don't really matter.It also scales ridiculously well with size increasing effects. And it stays on for an hour per charge, so the standard action is not a problem. It makes a really good opposite to the monofilament stiletto's amazingness for dex-based characters.

[Ssalarn]

I'm picturing Power Ranger mechs joining into a super mech. I can dig it.
I wasn't going to say "Power Ranger", maybe hoping for more like Voltron or any of the other transformation-fusing mech trope sources, but yeah, that. A few things have changed since I started with the archetype though, so I'm still trying smooth out the rough edges.

[Kiton2]

The old golden standard for combiners is Getter. Good stuff, that.

[Axebird]

It also scales ridiculously well with size increasing effects. And it stays on for an hour per charge, so the standard action is not a problem. It makes a really good opposite to the monofilament stiletto's amazingness for dex-based characters.

Keeping it on for an hour is questionable, since it imposes a massive Stealth penalty that means even if you're just moving normally creatures are going to hear you coming from a long ways away.

It's also not nearly as powerful as the monofilament stiletto- you're underselling the huge accuracy advantage that armor penetration grants.

[Ssalarn]

Keeping it on for an hour is questionable, since it imposes a massive Stealth penalty that means even if you're just moving normally creatures are going to hear you coming from a long ways away.

It's also not nearly as powerful as the monofilament stiletto- you're underselling the huge accuracy advantage that armor penetration grants.

The damage sims and calculations I've run indicate that at most levels, the two weapons will end up with fairly similar results over the course of combat, with the chainsaw crawling ahead at higher levels. The chainsaw also gets 1.5 strength and PA since it's a two-handed weapon, while the stiletto, as a light weapon, can never receive those additional damage modifiers. So the chainsaw has much higher base damage numbers, and the stiletto has more accuracy against armored foes. The chainsaw has a battery, the stiletto breaks or is destroyed on a natural 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

When creating the Aegis stuff, would it be possible to have it be in the form of Customizations allowing a combination of the Astral Suit with the Mech so that we could combine possibly disparate class combinations? Perhaps an archetype that gives you the suit and a customization for free with the customization allowing the combination?

Also I really really really love the Cryptic archetype. It's super fun and neat and stacks with Brutal Disruptor.

The Psychic Energizer lets you hit that lovely Wilder point where you can surge during every single manifestation when combined with the Ghosty Calm surge thingie and the magic hat doodad from Ultimate Psionics.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Ok, sooo, I realised tonight that something hasn't really been addressed yet: Using a vehicle as a weapon in combat.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRweD27QsHk


That, and what're the chances of getting some sort of mechanic to turn a mecha into a vehicle, and vice-versa?


https://38.media.tumblr.com/c059d5835557463aeb3696029030bc34/tumblr_mv4sifLvNm1s5oxc0o1_500.gif

http://www.hobbyxstyle.com/BaseProductImages/381/s400-1-12_bc_moto-slave_canon_std.jpg


Because I first saw a motorcycle turn into a suit of power armor that went over another suit of power armor when I was an impressionable youth, and it's forever tainted my worldview.

[Ssalarn]

Ok, sooo, I realised tonight that something hasn't really been addressed yet: Using a vehicle as a weapon in combat.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRweD27QsHk


That, and what're the chances of getting some sort of mechanic to turn a mecha into a vehicle, and vice-versa?


https://38.media.tumblr.com/c059d5835557463aeb3696029030bc34/tumblr_mv4sifLvNm1s5oxc0o1_500.gif

http://www.hobbyxstyle.com/BaseProductImages/381/s400-1-12_bc_moto-slave_canon_std.jpg


Because I first saw a motorcycle turn into a suit of power armor that went over another suit of power armor when I was an impressionable youth, and it's forever tainted my worldview.

I'll see what I can do for those suggestions :smallsmile:

[Mithril Leaf]

So how much for some Forgeborn love? Forgeborn Aegis Mecha build sounds super fun.

[Ssalarn]

So how much for some Forgeborn love? Forgeborn Aegis Mecha build sounds super fun.

Forgeborn are actually getting at least one racial archetype tied to the actual "Arcforge" technological artifact that I'll be rolling out soon. Maybe even some alternate racial traits for forgeborn allowing them to exchange their psionic affinity for technological advantages (basically making them cyborgs instead of half-golems).

[Kiton2]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

[Ssalarn]

A new Dread archetype, The Eclipse, is up, and I am going to bed. Let me know what you think and I'll respond when I wake up.
Later everyone!

[Nyaa]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

I'm going to disagree. If anything, this book is perfect for getting Aegis the way it should have been (synthetist minus spells minus summon monster SLA) if UPsi wasn't so conservative.

[Halae]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

[Sayt]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m58depLNCK1r8058ko1_500.gif

[ElderLucian]

I definitely need to play in a game that would allow tech because the Rocket Glove sounds perfect for making Yang from RWBY.

[Mithril Leaf]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

But that ruins my ability to play an Aegis with access to every system! We gotta ride this baby to the end man.

[Tuvarkz]

We really need initiator archetypes, pitching some ideas:
Warlord-Radiant Champion: The ace of the mech squads, whose mere presences inspires others to perform at their best.
Warder-Fortress Knight: The fortress knight is a nigh-impossible to destroy Mech, painting itself as an obvious target for its enemies.
Harbinger-Warlock: No one knows how, but when the Warlock enters the battlefield, things start going wrong for the enemy. Their mechs randomly fail and their soldiers act erratically, ignoring orders. (Curses everywhere. Also, maybe allow the Warlock to summon their mech out of nowhere)
Zealot-Phoenix Driver: With a heart filled with unshakeable conviction, these Mech drivers go and fight to and beyond their utmost limit. (Shares health between pilot and mech, clearly.)
Also, clearly they are all Code Geass references.

[Mehangel]

Harbinger-Warlock: No one knows how, but when the Warlock enters the battlefield, things start going wrong for the enemy. Their mechs randomly fail and their soldiers act erratically, ignoring orders. (Curses everywhere. Also, maybe allow the Warlock to summon their mech out of nowhere)


I vote that the Harbinger's archetype is called Gremlin.

[Ssalarn]

I vote that the Harbinger's archetype is called Gremlin.

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

[khadgar567]

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

seconded for obvious rationality sir

[stack]

So, the eclipse - a medium size eclipse is stuck commanding his mech from the outside until 7th level since the aerial form starts small. And aerial only gets ranged affinity by default, so you need to build it for both ranged and melee combat to deliver touch attacks?

I am also not wild about dividing your pilot level between multiple mechs. I know that is how a number of animal companion archetypes work, but it seems like a terrible idea for a PC to use since the more you have, the weaker they will be, easy taken out by AOE's and the like and ineffective even before they are destroyed. Works for a higher level boss though. The problem is compounded by the action limitations. It seems like the entire ability to have multiple will just be ignored almost all of the time and no one will play them at all in the early levels unless using a small race (which are good for dreads anyway).

[Halae]

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

I'm thinking I have to vote in favor of this. There has to be someone who crushes tech out there.

[Ssalarn]

So, the eclipse - a medium size eclipse is stuck commanding his mech from the outside until 7th level since the aerial form starts small. And aerial only gets ranged affinity by default, so you need to build it for both ranged and melee combat to deliver touch attacks?

I am also not wild about dividing your pilot level between multiple mechs. I know that is how a number of animal companion archetypes work, but it seems like a terrible idea for a PC to use since the more you have, the weaker they will be, easy taken out by AOE's and the like and ineffective even before they are destroyed. Works for a higher level boss though. The problem is compounded by the action limitations. It seems like the entire ability to have multiple will just be ignored almost all of the time and no one will play them at all in the early levels unless using a small race (which are good for dreads anyway).


A note on the "easily taken out by AOEs" thing - All mechs have Hardness. When determining energy damage against a creature with hardness (and the vast majority of AOE effects are energy based), you first cut the damage in half, then subtract the Hardness value from the damage before finally applying it and actually dealing damage. Mechs are vastly less vulnerable to AOE effects than animal companions.
For example-
Average base damage on a 5th level wizard's fireball is 17.5 (we'll call it 18). We'll say our Eclipse has one 3 HD mech, and one 2 HD mech, giving the first mech 21 hit points and Hardness 3 and the second mech 16 hit points and Hardness 2. The eclipse is planning on using his spreading eclipse ability to lower the light levels and gain himself some concealment, so the mechs are both within the radius of the blast, and the eclipse is really unlucky and fails both saves so they take "full" damage. That means the first mech takes a whopping 6 damage (leaving it with 15 hit points) and the second mech takes 7, leaving it at 9. The average wizard will have one more of those fireballs left (an NPC stat array wizard probably won't even have that), not enough to finish off even the weakest of the two mechs.

I have been considering the action economy issue; originally the Eclipse could remotely command one mech as a free action and spend actions to command the rest (with the built in scaling allowing him to command more mechs with his actions the same way it works now), but initial playtesting indicated that that was really strong, so I throttled it back a bit for the open testing. I'm willing to open that back up if it proves necessary.

[Halae]

Hey Ssalarn, is there anything stopping us from attaching magical items to a mech? Or even mundane ones that fulfill a function. I was personally thinking that (assuming you paid extra for having it wearable by a strange body type) armor bonuses wouldn't be a bad idea, as you could essentially get full plate by applying a ton of interlocking plates to a mech.

The second part of the question mostly concerns magic items - for instance, a cloak of resistance is a staple of the adventuring loadout, but can't really be worn by a pilot due to the whole "no bulky clothes" thing. Is there anything stopping us from putting such a cloak on the shoulders of a mech and calling it a day?

[Kiton2]

I'm thinking I have to vote in favor of this. There has to be someone who crushes tech out there.

You mean like full casters, with their "Aura of protection against Tech" and their "All tech drains and/or fails here, completely" spells and AoEs in the tech guide book?

[Halae]

You mean like full casters, with their "Aura of protection against Tech" and their "All tech drains and/or fails here, completely" spells and AoEs in the tech guide book?

We can't all be druids and wizards of a high enough level to cast those spells, and martials should have nice things too.

'sides, we never complain about stuff like that in regards to magic spells. Technically speaking, spells have more counters than tech does, but how much does it actually come up?

[Ssalarn]

Hey Ssalarn, is there anything stopping us from attaching magical items to a mech? Or even mundane ones that fulfill a function. I was personally thinking that (assuming you paid extra for having it wearable by a strange body type) armor bonuses wouldn't be a bad idea, as you could essentially get full plate by applying a ton of interlocking plates to a mech.

The second part of the question mostly concerns magic items - for instance, a cloak of resistance is a staple of the adventuring loadout, but can't really be worn by a pilot due to the whole "no bulky clothes" thing. Is there anything stopping us from putting such a cloak on the shoulders of a mech and calling it a day?

Hmmm.... Technically yes, you can do that, but let me look at setting up something that makes a little more sense (but can still be refluffed as a cloak wearing mech if that's your thing).

[stack]

Spreading eclipse requires at least two mechs, so I see you miss out on an interesting feature if single mech'd.

Still seems like they would drop quickly in a fight if they got into melee range. Ranged attacks also do half damage verses hardness, so I guess they should be okay as long as you forget about using devastating touch. Devastating touch at range would be more powerful, anyway to make that work?

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

[Halae]

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

I'm willing to bet that'll be the gunslinger archetype.

[Ssalarn]

Spreading eclipse requires at least two mechs, so I see you miss out on an interesting feature if single mech'd.

Still seems like they would drop quickly in a fight if they got into melee range. Ranged attacks also do half damage verses hardness, so I guess they should be okay as long as you forget about using devastating touch. Devastating touch at range would be more powerful, anyway to make that work?

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

I made some adjustments to the eclipse to allow the mechs to use wings of devastation as a ranged touch attack. We'll see how that goes.


I'm willing to bet that'll be the gunslinger archetype.

That would be a pretty safe bet :smallwink:

However, at the moment I'm busy fulfilling a very popular request for a Paladin archetype- Platinum Justicar will be ready for review and playtest before the end of the day.

[Axebird]

A note on the "easily taken out by AOEs" thing - All mechs have Hardness. When determining energy damage against a creature with hardness (and the vast majority of AOE effects are energy based), you first cut the damage in half, then subtract the Hardness value from the damage before finally applying it and actually dealing damage. Mechs are vastly less vulnerable to AOE effects than animal companions.
For example-
Average base damage on a 5th level wizard's fireball is 17.5 (we'll call it 18). We'll say our Eclipse has one 3 HD mech, and one 2 HD mech, giving the first mech 21 hit points and Hardness 3 and the second mech 16 hit points and Hardness 2. The eclipse is planning on using his spreading eclipse ability to lower the light levels and gain himself some concealment, so the mechs are both within the radius of the blast, and the eclipse is really unlucky and fails both saves so they take "full" damage. That means the first mech takes a whopping 6 damage (leaving it with 15 hit points) and the second mech takes 7, leaving it at 9. The average wizard will have one more of those fireballs left (an NPC stat array wizard probably won't even have that), not enough to finish off even the weakest of the two mechs.

I have been considering the action economy issue; originally the Eclipse could remotely command one mech as a free action and spend actions to command the rest (with the built in scaling allowing him to command more mechs with his actions the same way it works now), but initial playtesting indicated that that was really strong, so I throttled it back a bit for the open testing. I'm willing to open that back up if it proves necessary.

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

[Ssalarn]

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

They won't-
"Much like objects and vehicles, mechs have a Hardness score (as determined by their pilot’s level or their stat block), and take half damage from most energy attacks."

[Vhaidara]

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

False. It is in fact a function of hardness. Robots have hardness instead of DR, and that's how it is handled. It also resulted in a serious hatred of robots in my local pfs community (fairly high level adventure, caught them by surprise and cost several rezzes on high level characters)

[Axebird]

With a specific exception that works, but you shouldn't claim that it's just a part of hardness- that spreads incorrect information.

@Keledrath
That sucks. You've been getting cheated by GMs, there's no rule for things with hardness taking half damage from energy attacks. That's specifically from Damaging Objects:


Energy Attacks

Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

[Ssalarn]

With a specific exception that works, but you shouldn't claim that it's just a part of hardness- that spreads incorrect information.

@Keledrath
That sucks. You've been getting cheated by GMs, there's no rule for things with hardness taking half damage from energy attacks. That's specifically from Damaging Objects:


I'm actually 90% sure Keledrath is correct on the intent, and I could have sworn that there is a FAQ/errata/actual freaking rule somewhere that makes this clear. I included the line to address the fact that it's difficult to actually reference that rule.

[Axebird]

It takes 30 seconds to check the core rulebook FAQ and confirm that's not true.

[Ssalarn]

It takes 30 seconds to check the core rulebook FAQ and confirm that's not true.

I didn't actually see anything in the CRB FAQ addressing creatures and Hardness, which doesn't give an answer either way since the CRB doesn't contain any materials where the question would be relevant.

A little digging did turn this up though-

The rules for halving damage, doubling damage, dealing damage with ineffective tools, immunities, and the like only apply to damaging inanimate objects.
(This is apparently a question the Design Team has received a few times during the development of Iron Gods, so they were ready to go with an answer!) (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lghy?Year-of-the-Sky-Key-QA)

[tekevil]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

I would really rather Warpriest get an archetype

Reasoning:
-They can be any alignment and any deity
-It has a d8 hit die, which seems to be the average for classes getting archetypes
-It has granular class features, perfect for archtyping
-I need some excuse to actually run a Warpriest

[Vhaidara]

This is pathfinder society. The gm's are literally not allowed to houserule, and can be suspended/banned from gming if they do so.

[Milo v3]

This is pathfinder society. The gm's are literally not allowed to houserule, and can be suspended/banned from gming if they do so.

Then they should be suspended/banned I guess.

[Prime32]

Will there be any way to play a sentient mech? In mechanical terms it could be as simple as a pilot who can't leave his cockpit - if the mech is destroyed, its core remains intact and can be installed into a new body. Could be fun either as a PC or a cohort, particularly if the mech body allows for multiple pilots. A feat that lets you take on human form would be useful, though, so that a mech PC isn't barred from social situations (alternatively I guess you could communicate through your psicrystal or something).

[Milo v3]

Will there be any way to play a sentient mech? In mechanical terms it could be as simple as a pilot who can't leave his cockpit - if the mech is destroyed, its core remains intact and can be installed into a new body. Could be fun either as a PC or a cohort, particularly if the mech body allows for multiple pilots. A feat that lets you take on human form would be useful, though, so that a mech PC isn't barred from social situations (alternatively I guess you could communicate through your psicrystal or something).

I was planning on reflavouring a wildwood into that as a playtest character for Arcforge.

[tekevil]

May be a bit selfish, but a docking system would be pretty cool and help players avoid problems like "I have a collossal robot and I'm going into a cave with 10 ft ceilings." Also the cost of outfitting both size robots would keep you from abusing said system.


Examples of docking in media:

Relatively new super robot anime that had a docking system( Motorcycle into Colossal Robot):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkAZOX7yGN4

Older Super Robot anime with docking (Large Aerial mech into colossal robot)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRoF689VRE

Someone going from Medium Bipedal Robot, to Large Bipedal Robot, to Huge Bipedal robot via the Russian Nesting Doll transformation style
https://youtu.be/xl4IqLfzHwg?t=53s

Yea a lot of these are cartoonish, but I think having Huge and larger robots should allow you a "Core Unit" of medium or large size to both realize concepts like these and to allow exploration of dungeons without class features and wealth becoming useless.

[Milo v3]

Just noticed that siege weapons are missing Armour Penetration.

[Halae]

Armor and hardness penetration does seem like the sort of thing siege weaponry would excel at, doesn't it? it'd give other mechs something of a hardness bypass if they decide they like being artillery if it went for hardness too, but AP alone would make sense as well.

As far as being stuck inside your mech, the druid's biomech seems interesting for that - I'm currently imagining a guy that got a magic seed planted into his spine and it's constantly growing, using him as a sort of core, though he gives it will and life, in a sort of symbiotic relationship that neither can back out of without dying.

[Sayt]

Will there be any way to play a sentient mech? In mechanical terms it could be as simple as a pilot who can't leave his cockpit - if the mech is destroyed, its core remains intact and can be installed into a new body. Could be fun either as a PC or a cohort, particularly if the mech body allows for multiple pilots. A feat that lets you take on human form would be useful, though, so that a mech PC isn't barred from social situations (alternatively I guess you could communicate through your psicrystal or something).

The Technology guide has rules for AIs, perhaps if there's a bestiary section that would include a rampant AI piloting a mech.

...or maybe even a raceless AI in a robot class. it would be novel, at least, compared to the rest of the Pathfinder.

[Halae]

That would either be terrible or amazing, sayt. I'm not certain which.

[unseenmage]

That would either be terrible or amazing, sayt. I'm not certain which.

Confirmed for amazing.

[Ssalarn]

The Technology guide has rules for AIs, perhaps if there's a bestiary section that would include a rampant AI piloting a mech.

...or maybe even a raceless AI in a robot class. it would be novel, at least, compared to the rest of the Pathfinder.

Ran a playtest adventure just the other night where the BBEG was one of the new AIs I've been working on. The party figured out what was going about 30 seconds before it occupied a Colossal mech body it had hidden in a sub-basement of the building they were exploring and blew a whole through 5 stories worth of floors and ceiling before launching out and raining rockets down. It was pretty fun.

A PC AI, huh? Hmmmm....

[Tohsaka Rin]

Will there be any way to play a sentient mech? In mechanical terms it could be as simple as a pilot who can't leave his cockpit - if the mech is destroyed, its core remains intact and can be installed into a new body. Could be fun either as a PC or a cohort, particularly if the mech body allows for multiple pilots. A feat that lets you take on human form would be useful, though, so that a mech PC isn't barred from social situations (alternatively I guess you could communicate through your psicrystal or something).

Sentient mech that takes on human form, eh?


http://images6.fanpop.com/image/answers/3009000/3009414_1347892396684.71res_400_300.jpg

https://toyroom.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/animatedmotoslave.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2lntw69.jpg


Prime, you really should check out Bubblegum Crisis.

Ssalarn, what're the chances of us seeing some sort of co-pilot rules for mechs? Be it spreading out actions to make one mech more effective (pilot/melee and gunner), or just providing aid-another actions? Piloting a mech with an in-built A.I. would become a lot more attractive, in spite of whatever extra costs were required. (Gold, sacrificed items, class abilities/features, feat tax?)

[Prime32]

Sentient mech that takes on human form, eh?

Prime, you really should check out Bubblegum Crisis.Whuh? No, I mean like Power Rangers/Super Sentai does it. A mysterious person shows up in one episode, the rangers save them or earn their respect, then they reveal their true form (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-_dNx3yQU) as a giant robot that had been hiding among humans for centuries. IIRC this Raideen remake (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1EVvpXHhkU) did that as well - the protagonist's girlfriend turned into the robot or something. I've seen it in other places, just don't ask me where.

EDIT: Tenchi Muyo had a spaceship that could turn into a human or a "cabbit" (http://tenchi.wikia.com/wiki/Ryo-Ohki). Transformers: Supergod Masterforce had the Pretender shells, which were worn by Autobots in hiding on Earth to disguise themselves as humans.

[Tohsaka Rin]

*Cough.* I don't wanna say that...

The entire plot of BGC revolves around killer robots that look like humans, but most of it does.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3py2iShiC1qzqnxxo1_500.gif

It's just pretty dark, is all. Less heroic machine in disguise, more T800 with the personality of the Hulk.


But I guess that's what I'm saying.

[Sayt]

Ran a playtest adventure just the other night where the BBEG was one of the new AIs I've been working on. The party figured out what was going about 30 seconds before it occupied a Colossal mech body it had hidden in a sub-basement of the building they were exploring and blew a whole through 5 stories worth of floors and ceiling before launching out and raining rockets down. It was pretty fun.

Nice!


A PC AI, huh? Hmmmm....

There will, of course, be tons of mandatory Ghost in the Shell references. :smallbiggrin:

Ohh, or Maybe an item that does a destructive scan of a characters brain and plops a copy into a Psicrystal, when can then with the Psi-core Upgrade pilot a mech. Including Medium sized mechs customized to look just like people....

Also, I'm not sure if the questions I had about Mech's Wielding weapons got answered. To quickly and probably more clearly restate:

1. Do two-handed weapons require multiple Weapon slots
2. Does a weapon slot with a ranged weapon have a speific capacity for ammunition?
3. Is a weapons lot equipped with one throwing weapon, or a 'launcher' with a 'clip' of ammunition?
4. How does reloading work with weapon slots and ranged weapons?

Example Problems:
(1)A Bipedal Mech places a Longbow in each of it's weapon slots. If it has Two-Weapon Fighting, does can it fire both in one round, despite the unspecified number of arms?
(2.a)A Tracked/Quadruped mech has taken the Melee Weapon Affinity enhancement (I'd maybe use 'Customization' instead of enhancement; enhancement is a bonus type), and has placed a Falchion each of the weapon slots. Can the pilot of a bonded mech then take Two/Multi-Weapon Fighting? (2.b) Is one weapon slot designated as being the "Primary" slot and others "Offhand"? (This is relevant when dealing with multiple melee weapons and Strength to damage)

Probably more to come later.

[Halae]

As far as a PC AI goes, some consideration has to be taken - without a strength, dexterity, or constitution score, revised point buy rules would have to be worked out to keep people from just dumping all their points into their last three stats and relying on whatever body they put together for physical stats.

The mech rules already seem to have a decent handle on that, though; as long as a PC AI is stuck in one mech, their stats are modified but static, and are simply expanded upon rather than being base numbers.

[Taveena]

Honestly it seems like a playable Construct race a la Warforged, but nonmagical, could make sense here? Just... sapient, playable robots.

Seems easier to balance than a creature with no physical stats, at least.

[Mehangel]

Honestly it seems like a playable Construct race a la Warforged, but nonmagical, could make sense here? Just... sapient, playable robots.

Seems easier to balance than a creature with no physical stats, at least.

You mean like the android (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp) race?

[Taveena]

You mean like the android (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp) race?

... Does the Android race actually have a type? All I can see is that they're treated as both humanoids and constructs for targeting with no subtypes for either. Which is mostly just WEIRD.

[Sayt]

Honestly it seems like a playable Construct race a la Warforged, but nonmagical, could make sense here? Just... sapient, playable robots.

Seems easier to balance than a creature with no physical stats, at least.

Perhaps the AI has Strength and Dexterity scores, but they represent the capacity to manipulate things they're piloting, So dexterity represents the ability of the mind to use fine motor control?

[Axebird]

Started working on this post yesterday, but didn't have time to finish it (and lost power).

Well, first things first the base damage of monofilament stilettos and chainsaws isn't very far apart. The monofilament stiletto has a base damage of 2d6, and the chainsaw has a base damage of 3d6. That's a gap of 3.5, which is pretty slim- especially at higher levels. Power Attack variance is a bigger deal later on, for sure, but the dramatic accuracy boost provided by armor penetration alters things quite a bit too (plus, 18-20/x3 critical, which is the strongest in the game, compared to 18-20/x2 possessed by a chainsaw).

Also, the monofilament stiletto doesn't break on a natural 1. The fragile quality goes away for masterwork or magical weapons, and seeing as a basic monofilament stiletto already costs 5,000 gp... it's unlikely you'd ever see one in play that isn't at least masterwork, making the quality pretty pointless

Anyway, here's some math on the subject:


Suggested wealth spent on weapons ranges from 19.23% to 50.54%, averaging 35.86%, with a median of 34.83%. 35% of wealth is a solid point to use comparing primary weapon with offense. That gives us a range of WBL applied to weapons from 350 gp at 2nd level to 308,000 gp at 20th. The first level a chainsaw is affordable at is 5th, with a budget of 3,675 gp. The first level a monofilament stiletto is affordable is at 6th, with a budget of 5,600 gp.

A +1 monofilament stiletto is acquired at 7th level. +2 at 9th level, +3 at 11th level, +4 at 12th level, +5 at 14th level.
A +1 chainsaw is acquired at 6th level. +2 at 8th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 12th level, +5 at 14th level.

For simplicity, I'm going to keep this to the capabilities of two basic Warriors with heroic point-buy. Both will start with an 18 in either Strength or Dexterity. The chainsaw warrior has Power Attack, while the stiletto warrior has Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, and Piranha Strike. Keep in mind that the chainsaw warrior spent 2 less feats in these comparisons. This setup gives a slight advantage to the chainsaw for comparison purposes, since flat damage bonuses from class features have a greater impact on higher accuracy attacks, and we're only using ability scores and Power Attack/Piranha Strike, which favor two handed weapons over one handed weapons. We're also not including an effect like Improved Critical or keen, which would further push things in favor of the monofilament stiletto (as it possesses the strongest critical range of any weapon ever published by Paizo or Dreamscarred Press). Mostly because I only have so much time and this consumes a lot of it, if further convincing is required I can tack a few more elements on the breakpoints.

Primary ability score boosters are dedicated 20% of each character's budget. This means a +2 item is acquired at 7th level, +4 at 11th level, and +6 at 14th level.

Target AC is calculated using collected bestiary statistics from this project (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agyi5tgUTatCdHFjS05Kb18xVGd2bTZhak5YaGQtM FE#gid=3), compared against the median AC of a creature of the same CR.

It's worth noting that from the bestiary (because I can't be bothered to go through all PF sources by hand), there are very few creatures with less than the AP of an appropriate monofilament stilleto. Exceptions are listed here:
CR 6 - Will-o-Wisp
CR 7 - Shadow Demon, Medusa (has Nat AC 3), Nymph, Black Pudding (total AC 3), Spectre
CR 8 - Greater Shadow
That's 7 creatures, out of the 155 CR 6-20 creatures in the bestiary. So, 4.5% of monster targets will either not care about the effects of armor penetration, or will have them slightly reduced. Humanoid targets wearing armor will always be fully affected by the armor penetration of a level appropriate monofilament stiletto, arcane casters using mage armor will be affected by up to 4 points, and manifesters using inertial armor will always be fully affected. Armor penetration from 3-8 effectively acts as a raw accuracy boost in virtually all scenarios.

Non-damage Pros and Cons:
Chainsaw
Pros
+2 morale bonus to Intimidate checks

Cons
-10 penalty to Stealth while active
Requires a standard action to activate after drawing
Requires a supply of batteries (either costs additional gold or character resources, like a psionic character with Psi-core Upgrade)

Monofilament Stiletto
Pros
Only requires one hand (usable while grappled, allows a free hand for things like shields or Spell Combat, can be used with TWF)
Has the effects of Adamantine (low-value, an adamantine chainsaw is close to the same cost)

Cons
No Str-based option

So, DPR comparisons from every level at 6th up follow.

6th level - Target AC 19
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 19, BAB +6, +1 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +11/+6 (3d6+7/18-20x2), Power Attack for -2/+6
Standard DPR: 19.82
Power Attack: 21.25

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 19, BAB +6, masterwork monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +11/+6 (2d6+4/18-20x3/AP 3), Piranha Strike for -2/+4
Standard DPR: 17.86
Piranha Strike: 20.22

7th Level - Target AC 20
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 21, BAB +7, +1 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +13/+8 (3d6+8/18-20x2), Power Attack for -2/+6
Standard DPR: 23.11
Power Attack: 24.93

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 21, BAB +7, +1 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +13/+8 (2d6+6/18-20x3/AP 4), Piranha Strike for -2/+4
Standard DPR: 24.83
Piranha Strike: 27.60

8th Level - Target AC 21
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 22, BAB +8, +2 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +16/+11 (3d6+11/18-20x2), Power Attack for -3/+9
Standard DPR: 31.96
Power Attack: 34.55

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 22, BAB +8, +1 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +15/+10 (2d6+7/18-20x3/AP 4), Piranha Strike for -3/+6
Standard DPR: 28.82
Piranha Strike: 32.47

9th Level - Target AC 23
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 22, BAB +9, +2 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +17/+12 (3d6+11/18-20x2), Power Attack for -3/+9
Standard DPR: 29.39
Power Attack: 31.04

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 22, BAB +9, +2 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +17/+12 (2d6+8/18-20x3/AP 5), Piranha Strike for -3/+6
Standard DPR: 32.00
Piranha Strike: 37.07

10th Level - Target AC 24
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 22, BAB +10, +3 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +19/+14 (3d6+12/18-20x2), Power Attack for -3/+9
Standard DPR: 33.45
Power Attack: 35.68

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 22, BAB +10, +2 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +18/+13 (2d6+8/18-20x3/AP 5), Piranha Strike for -3/+6
Standard DPR: 32.00
Piranha Strike: 37.07

11th Level - Target AC 25
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 24, BAB +11, +3 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +21/+16/+11 (3d6+13/18-20x2), Power Attack for -3/+9
Standard DPR: 46.11
Power Attack: 46.84

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 24, BAB +11, +3 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +21/+16/+11 (2d6+10/18-20x3/AP 6), Piranha Strike for -3/+6
Standard DPR: 52.13
Piranha Strike: 61.73

12th Level - Target AC 27
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 25, BAB +12, +4 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +23/+18/+13 (3d6+14/18-20x2), Power Attack for -4/+12
Standard DPR: 48.07
Power Attack: 46.43

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 25, BAB +12, +4 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +23/+18/+13 (2d6+11/18-20x3/AP 7), Piranha Strike for -4/+8
Standard DPR: 58.97
Piranha Strike: 69.78

Going to skip to increments of 2 levels at this point. I can fill in the rest if people absolutely want it, but the only equipment change left happens at 14th level, and Power Attack/Piranha Strike and ability score adjustments and the last iterative all occur on even levels.

14th Level - Target AC 29
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 27, BAB +14, +5 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +27/+22/+17 (3d6+17/18-20x2), Power Attack for -4/+12
Standard DPR: 63.81
Power Attack: 63.69

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 27, BAB +14, +5 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +27/+22/+17 (2d6+13/18-20x3/AP 8), Piranha Strike for -4/+8
Standard DPR: 70.13
Piranha Strike: 87.50

16th Level - Target AC 31
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 28, BAB +16, +5 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +30/+25/+20/+15 (3d6+18/18-20x2), Power Attack for -5/+15
Standard DPR: 76.24
Power Attack: 71.34

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 28, BAB +16, +5 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +30/+25/+20/+15 (2d6+14/18-20x3/AP 8), Piranha Strike for -5/+10
Standard DPR: 91.20
Piranha Strike: 109.45

Skipping up to 20 at this point, since that's when Power Attack and Piranha Strike get their last adjustment. Otherwise damage output declines slowly on both ends.

20th Level - Target AC 37
Chainsaw Warrior
Str 29, BAB +20, +5 chainsaw
Attack Profile: +34/+29/+24/+19 (3d6+18/18-20x2), Power Attack for -6/+18
Standard DPR: 64.56
Power Attack: 53.26

Monofilament Warrior
Dex 29, BAB +20, +5 monofilament stiletto
Attack Profile: +34/+29/+24/+19 (2d6+14/18-20x3/AP 8), Piranha Strike for -6/+12
Standard DPR: 84.89
Piranha Strike: 95.71


Phew. That was exhausting. But yeah, there's some clear proof on the effects of armor penetration's accuracy amplification- and as pointed out above, this is tame compared to what you'd get within PC classes or with other effects like keen. Criticals across the board were a large influence too, since the monofilament stiletto has the strongest critical range of any existing weapon.

It probably wouldn't be as huge a deal if armor penetration didn't increase with enhancement bonus, which basically just leads to doubling up on the accuracy increase provided by enhancement bonuses. It's still a fairly questionable mechanic, since it works out almost all of the time to be a weapon based accuracy boost, it just requires another step checking numbers to resolve attacks instead of increasing your raw attack bonus. And... stacking on higher accuracy and damage output for martial characters isn't generally considered a good idea, as opposed to special abilities and lateral options- the chainsaw has limitations that make it only situationally superior to, say, a greatsword or falchion, but the monofilament blade is an outright upgrade compared to all existing finesse weapons (and overall a dramatic increase to their offensive power when it becomes available).

[Kiton2]

Whuh? No, I mean like Power Rangers/Super Sentai does it. A mysterious person shows up in one episode, the rangers save them or earn their respect, then they reveal their true form (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-_dNx3yQU) as a giant robot that had been hiding among humans for centuries. IIRC this Raideen remake (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1EVvpXHhkU) did that as well - the protagonist's girlfriend turned into the robot or something. I've seen it in other places, just don't ask me where.

EDIT: Tenchi Muyo had a spaceship that could turn into a human or a "cabbit". (http://tenchi.wikia.com/wiki/Ryo-Ohki)

Another example would be the Auto-Vajin (that name, though...) from Faiz: transforms from bike into significantly bulkier (totally not because there's a dude in the suit) combat droid to protect its master.

There's also technically a certain belt controlling a certain car in Drive...

[Milo v3]

Question, with the variant that removes misfire.... Are there going to be listed alterations of the abilities that gunslingers, items, and various archetypes have that interact with misfire? Because just looking at the RPG line, none of this content "works" with armour penetration:

Gunslinger
Alchemical Cartridges
Musketeer [Swashbuckler]
Picaroon [Swashbuckler]
Crossbow Ace [Gunslinger]
Musketeer [Cavalier]
Musket Master [Gunslinger]
Mysterious Stranger [Gunslinger]
Pistolero [Gunslinger]
Trophy Hunter [Ranger]
Reliable weapon enchantment
Greater Reliable Weapon Enchantment
Lucky weapon enchantment
Unstable Musket cursed item



Honestly it seems like a playable Construct race a la Warforged, but nonmagical, could make sense here? Just... sapient, playable robots.

Seems easier to balance than a creature with no physical stats, at least.

You can put the robot subtype on Wyrwood, according to the Robot subtype.

Edit:
Also, the monofilament stiletto doesn't break on a natural 1. The fragile quality goes away for masterwork or magical weapons, and seeing as a basic monofilament stiletto already costs 5,000 gp... it's unlikely you'd ever see one in play that isn't at least masterwork, making the quality pretty pointless

You cannot have a masterwork High-Tech Weapon. They sort of count as masterwork by default, which is why you can enchant them.

Edit2: psionic boogaloo
There isn't much chance of having the following added since it's occult rather than psionic is there:
Recharge
Element air; Type utility (sp); Level 3; Burn 1;
You can apply controlled levels of electricity to a device to restore it's battery. This acts as recharge (Technology Guide). Instead of paying the burn cost yourself, you can cause the technology to take the damage. If you do so, the target takes 1 point of electricity damage per Hit Die you possesses.

[Axebird]

Ah, fair point. Forgot about that. Then you're unlikely to ever see one that isn't +1, in that case.

[tekevil]

How about if we throw in at least one virtual or real size increase? It's very very likely the chainsaw user will have both due to y'know enlarge person, Lead Blades, Primal Fury Stance, ect.





Also here's a cheap method of making weapons big for robots...

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Iron%20Lord%27 s%20Transforming%20Slivers

[khadgar567]

guys I am sorry for math geniuses but can you calculate using two weapons fighting stiletto vs chainsaw
reason
by making dc 5 search google check you can learn stiletto is dagger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto) so we can use two weapons fighting with it

[Milo v3]

guys I am sorry for math geniuses but can you calculate using two weapons fighting stiletto vs chainsaw
reason
by making dc 5 search google check you can learn stiletto is dagger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto) so we can use two weapons fighting with it

Note, there are also ways to two weapon fight with the chainsaw.

[Axebird]

How about if we throw in at least one virtual or real size increase? It's very very likely the chainsaw user will have both due to y'know enlarge person, Lead Blades, Primal Fury Stance, ect.

Only applying one size increase widens the gap in the monofilament stiletto's favor across the board, as it constitutes a +3.5 increase in average damage for both weapons (2d6->3d6 vs. 3d6->4d6) and the stiletto has a large accuracy and critical advantage.

Applying two size increases constitutes a +7 increase for the stiletto and a +10.5 increase for the chainsaw (2d6->4d6 vs. 3d6->6d6), which is slightly favorable (a difference of between for the chainsaw at levels [6, 8-11, 14-20] (narrowing the gap by between 1.02-3.49 DPR), and (extremely slightly) favorable for the stiletto at levels 7 and 12.

Applying three size increases constitutes a +14 increase for the stiletto and a +17.5 increase for the chainsaw (2d6->6d6 vs. 3d6->8d6), which favors the stiletto compared to two size increases (again, due to its large accuracy and critical advantage).

EDIT: On Two Weapon Fighting: It depends. It's feat intensive and has a ton of different potential comparison points that make it a pain in the ass to calculate. At a basic level you could compare standard TWF with stilettos versus a two handed chainsaw, but that's not really going to be a very fair comparison due to the amount of feats expended to increase damage output. You could also get into maneuvers and stances (using Piercing Thunder to enable two weapon fighting with chainsaws), but that's a huge can of worms, especially with Thrashing Dragon in its current state.

Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting with Powerful Build on the chainsaw end might let you get a decent comparison point. You'd need something comparable to Powerful Build on the stiletto side, but feat costs would line up fairly well; the chainsaw combatant would need Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting, TWF -> Greater TWF, and Double Slice (5 feats), while the stiletto combatant would have Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, and TWF -> Greater TWF (5 feats). Pathfinder's to-hit penalty for off-size weapons is an issue, though.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Soooo, how much changes if we make the chainsaw a reach weapon?

Just thinking of those giant chainsaws is all.

[Taveena]

Note, there are also ways to two weapon fight with the chainsaw.

Titan Mauler + Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting + Double Slice, maybe, if your strength is high enough.

Titan Mauler 2/Brutal Slayer 6/Dragon Fury 10, maybe.

[MilleniaAntares]

You mean like the android (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp) race?
There's also DSP's forgeborn.

Asking for an AI in a mech is a bit silly, especially when you can more or less RP one of the artificial races and just never leave the mech proper.


... Does the Android race actually have a type? All I can see is that they're treated as both humanoids and constructs for targeting with no subtypes for either. Which is mostly just WEIRD.
I'd presume they're technically one or the other, but count as both similar to inevitables and the like.


Problem with that image: Your bonded mount can only do this if its feats and/or class levels are used to obtain a mech. Now I'm not saying that's *impossible*... But it's probably easier to find someone to be the ambiguously-insinuative Trombe to your burly Daizengar instead.

are we talking arm-mounted plasma drill hurricanes here, or knee-mounted drills from the tank that forms your feet?
:D
Presumably, the archetype for a mech riding a mech would have the mount's mech taken into account into the archetype's budget.

All the drills. Every possible permutation.

[Nyaa]

On robot hardness: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rez1?Robot-Hardness-Questions#7

[Halae]

Specific trumps general, so it's up to DSP whether they want their mechs to have energy damage decreased by hardness or not. Particularly given that, as far as I'm aware, mechs aren't actually robots.

[Ssalarn]

How about if we throw in at least one virtual or real size increase? It's very very likely the chainsaw user will have both due to y'know enlarge person, Lead Blades, Primal Fury Stance, ect.





Also here's a cheap method of making weapons big for robots...

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Iron%20Lord%27 s%20Transforming%20Slivers

MF stiletto had it's crit multiplier dropped to x2 (this was an error on my part, as I thought the chainsaw had a x3 multiplier).

The initial damage calculations presented do not account for the fact that the stiletto breaks whenever a 1 is rolled - this drastically alters the presumed math, and is unavoidable when the weapon becomes available as you cannot have masterwork versions of technological weapons, so the initial numbers are incorrect on that point as well. The chainsaw actually has a much better "take off" point. Given the feats required to get the mf stiletto's Dex to damage, the chainsaw's power dependency should not be factored against it; those same feats the stiletto user is using just to get Dex to damage will allow the chainsaw wielder to obtain a core to power his chainsaw.
The stiletto is also not meant to be able to lose the downside of the fragile property - this has been noted in its entry. Not including that to begin with was largely my fault as well; I didn't think the clarification was necessary since I had it in my head that the masterwork conversion was what offset the fragile property, and since you can't have masterwork tech weapons and the weapon is crafted with the fragile property, it didn't seem necessary to call out.

Also worth noting, is that the chainsaw has both the deadly and distracting properties, which can be reasonable boons to characters built to take advantage of those, though are situational enough that it's reasonable not to try and account for them in flat damage sims.

Other little tweaks-
The Reactor Knight's Rocket Punch Overdrive has been updated with verbage clarifying that it does not stack with the damage multiplication of a lance, Spirited Charge, or other similar effects.

In case anyone missed it, the dread archetype the Eclipse had some adjustments made allowing it to use Wings of Devastation from range. Let me know if any playtesting is done with this, I think Wings of Devastation may require that we trade in the 2nd level terror to help balance things back out a bit.I'm okay if the Eclipse is a little bit stronger at low levels, that's just something you kind of have to live with when it comes to "pet" classes. What I don't want is it being absolutely ridiculously more powerful. I've also added the "Iron Nightmare" ability to the Eclipse to try and help reduce his action economy strain a bit, allowing him to command mechs within 10 feet of an enemy suffering from the shaken, frightened, or panicked conditions as a free action. I may look at having this ability come online a little earlier depending on feedback.


Specific trumps general, so it's up to DSP whether they want their mechs to have energy damage decreased by hardness or not. Particularly given that, as far as I'm aware, mechs aren't actually robots.

Non-class granted mechs are actually treated more like customized power armors than creatures, it was just that using a creature chassis was the easiest and most intuitive way to allow the class granted ones to scale properly. Given that a meh someone finds and refurbishes in a trash heap would technically be an object and gain that benefit, it doesn't really make sense for the mech that someone is sacrificing character resources for to actually be weaker in that regard. Plus, it's a super common trope in mech media for those things to be flying through explosions, weathering laser fire, etc. and I think using the object rules for calculating energy damage makes a lot of sense in that regard. It also helps explain why anyone would ever create a weapon as clunky and unsophisticated as a greatsword or tetsubo customized for a mech- that biped with a bigass sword? He was created, not to deal with giant monsters and horrors from beyond, but specifically to wreck enemy mechs.

[khadgar567]

Specific trumps general, so it's up to DSP whether they want their mechs to have energy damage decreased by hardness or not. Particularly given that, as far as I'm aware, mechs aren't actually robots.
yeah their more like full metal eidolons with Synthesist as pilot

[Milo v3]

Titan Mauler + Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting + Double Slice, maybe, if your strength is high enough.

Titan Mauler 2/Brutal Slayer 6/Dragon Fury 10, maybe.

Or just Half-Giant + Two-Weapon Fighting. :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

Or just Half-Giant + Two-Weapon Fighting. :smalltongue:

Yeah, that's a bad eff'ing day. During one of our 3rd level playtests one of my players was running a biped with a greatsword and he'd mentioned really wanting to play with the chainsaw, so I figured I'd give it to him but make him work for it. Half-giant dual wielding chainsaws seemed like a great boss fight and I figured the penalties for TWF and inappropriately sized weapons would more than offset the damage potential... I was not correct. I ended up having to sketch in a little extra loot so that the party didn't need to sell both of the chainsaws to rebuild the two destroyed mechs :smalltongue:

(Before the questions about how a BBEG appropriate to a 3rd level party had the WBL for two chainsaws comes up - we were playing in a campaign setting where one of the PCs owned a junkyard full of scrapped mech parts and most people drove motorized vehicles or used mechs for everyday utility like garbage disposal, so the costs of technological weapons were drastically reduced.)

[Kiton2]

The hardness/half-energy is probably for the best, especially as while they may not be robots by default, any construct upon creation can just be *declared* one.

Mechs have their own hit-dice, so there's a strong incentive to do this: While it gains several (Critical and Electrical) vulnerabilities, a robot (in comparison to a standard construct) gets intelligence, and appropriate feats and skills for its HD.

Question: Since a bonded mech has up to 15 HD, does that allow it to get class levels with the other 5 by pilot 20th?

[Ssalarn]

The hardness/half-energy is probably for the best, especially as while they may not be robots by default, any construct upon creation can just be *declared* one.
***

Not strictly true. There's some poorly worded GM advice that basically says "Here's how to make an existing construct a robot", but a player can't just take Craft Construct, for example, and start declaring all his clay golems as robots. In fact, the creation of a robot is strictly up to GM fiat given that robots all gain the "Difficult to Create" feature.

More than that, mechs and robots actually have some direct conflicts- robots are always intelligent, and mechs are noted as never gaining an intelligence score.

There could be some exceptions to this, such as a psi-core that was somehow severed from its master and which took control of a mech to use as a host body, but then it's the psi-core which is the actual robot and which could potentially learn new feats and skills, not the mech itself.

[Kiton2]

I dunno, seems to me the "you can add the robot subtype and traits to any construct created by technology" and the bit about it being mutually exclusive with clockwork seems pretty straightforward...


Wouldn't a psi-core be unable to learn anything in that way though, due to the whole "psicrystals don't get hitdice and thus gain nothing" deal?

Although at this point it's starting to feel like 'abandoned' or freed/emancipated psicrystals should probably be a playable race...

[Ssalarn]

I dunno, seems to me the "you can add the robot subtype and traits to any construct created by technology" and the bit about it being mutually exclusive with clockwork seems pretty straightforward...


Wouldn't a psi-core be unable to learn anything in that way though, due to the whole "psicrystals don't get hitdice and thus gain nothing" deal?

Although at this point it's starting to feel like 'abandoned' or freed/emancipated psicrystals should probably be a playable race...

That's actually something I'm looking at possibly adding when I start adding the new critters and suits in, is psi-cores whose technological conversion allows them to survive their creator's death and set off on their own as tiny little mineral cyborgs who are now free to learn and develop independently. They'd be a separate race and wouldn't gain the psicrystal benefits of having a master, but they'd have some interesting options and could make for really cool mech pilot characters. Plus, it'd be fun to have one as an NPC. Party defeats enemy mech, discovers no one inside, takes omni-tool as loot, omni-tool hijacks an unoccupied mech and returns to threaten the group once again lich-style...

[Kiton2]

"HAHAHA! YOU THOUGHT I WAS MERE LOOT!" Is a fairly hilarious thought.
Go for it. I'd play a psicrystal in an instant.

Very small, but likely a perfect match to tech weapons (assimilate = feed as power core). Due to oversize weapon penalties, their tiny size's attack bonus is directly counteracted, but you get these tiny tiny spider tanks with a rifle turret as big as they are scurrying along their other party-members till they can find something to "ride".

Then you get leadership, a second one appears, and the party starts to really worry about an infestation when you affinity a third...

[Mithril Leaf]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215512-Tsora-3-5-Race-Constructive-Criticism-Only

Just saying :3

[Taveena]

That's actually something I'm looking at possibly adding when I start adding the new critters and suits in, is psi-cores whose technological conversion allows them to survive their creator's death and set off on their own as tiny little mineral cyborgs who are now free to learn and develop independently. They'd be a separate race and wouldn't gain the psicrystal benefits of having a master, but they'd have some interesting options and could make for really cool mech pilot characters. Plus, it'd be fun to have one as an NPC. Party defeats enemy mech, discovers no one inside, takes omni-tool as loot, omni-tool hijacks an unoccupied mech and returns to threaten the group once again lich-style...

Would there be a way to play one in a non-mech campaign? Some kinda default body, maybe?

[Mehangel]

I think it would be awesome if the psychic energizer specifically also supported the soulknife 'Rage Blade' archetype which also has the possibility to suffer from the effects of psychic enervation. As it is written right now, it appears to only work with wilder's.

[Ssalarn]

I think it would be awesome if the psychic energizer specifically also supported the soulknife 'Rage Blade' archetype which also has the possibility to suffer from the effects of psychic enervation. As it is written right now, it appears to only work with wilder's.
I'll double-check the verbage, but it should work for anyone who suffers psychic enervation. Or does the Rage Blade use a non-percentile chance of incurring it?


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215512-Tsora-3-5-Race-Constructive-Criticism-Only

Just saying :3

Not really what I was thinking of doing, but neat.

[Mithril Leaf]

Not really what I was thinking of doing, but neat.

Yeah, it's one of the neater concepts.

If I have one request for the psicrystals separated from their owners, it is please make them a full playable race.

[Ssalarn]

Yeah, it's one of the neater concepts.

If I have one request for the psicrystals separated from their owners, it is please make them a full playable race.

That would be the plan!

Mostly just ruminating on the logistics of ensuring they have all the proper tools to interact with the game world like any other PC; the idea is too cool to leave out.

[Mehangel]

I'll double-check the verbage, but it should work for anyone who suffers psychic enervation. Or does the Rage Blade use a non-percentile chance of incurring it?

The following is taken from Rage Blade:


Psychic Enervation (Ex): Pushing oneself by manifesting a rage blade is dangerous to one’s mind and body. Immediately following the manifesting of the rage blade, a brutality blade may be overcome by the strain of her effort, causing him to take 2 hit points of damage per brutality blade level. The chance of suffering psychic enervation is 10%. This ability functions identically to the wilder’s psychic enervation class feature and qualifies for prerequisites and requirements using this ability.

[Ssalarn]

The following is taken from Rage Blade:

Removed the reference to wild surge from the chip so it applies evenly to any class that suffers from psychic enervation.

[Kiton2]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215512-Tsora-3-5-Race-Constructive-Criticism-Only

I was picturing Tiny (just one step up from regulars) constructs that get to count as small when wielding weapons, assimilating little pistols, rifles or autocrossbows to themselves as tiny little spider-tanks (when they're not being the core of some giant robot, anyways).

I mean there's already *so many* biped medium humanoid races of every kind...

Racial variants/alternate-features would be different minerals. Noqual antimagic fighters, deep crystal marksmen, etc. Most are optical-neural-nets (robot) but 'clockwork' is probably their equivalent of evil undead.

[unseenmage]

I was picturing Tiny (just one step up from regulars) constructs that get to count as small when wielding weapons, assimilating little pistols, rifles or autocrossbows to themselves as tiny little spider-tanks (when they're not being the core of some giant robot, anyways).

I mean there's already *so many* biped medium humanoid races of every kind...

Racial variants/alternate-features would be different minerals. Noqual antimagic fighters, deep crystal marksmen, etc. Most are optical-neural-nets (robot) but 'clockwork' is probably their equivalent of evil undead.

Am loving all of the things right here. .

[Tohsaka Rin]

So, a tiny, artificially-created being, that isn't a biped, and is trying to understand its place in a strange world, full of (to it) strange creatures...


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/toonami/images/d/d2/Tachikoma.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131121002206
"Hooray! I'm relevant!"


...I'm starting to think I'm sick in the head. Also, spider-like movement would probably be the way to go.

[Kaidinah]

Only applying one size increase widens the gap in the monofilament stiletto's favor across the board, as it constitutes a +3.5 increase in average damage for both weapons (2d6->3d6 vs. 3d6->4d6) and the stiletto has a large accuracy and critical advantage.

Applying two size increases constitutes a +7 increase for the stiletto and a +10.5 increase for the chainsaw (2d6->4d6 vs. 3d6->6d6), which is slightly favorable (a difference of between for the chainsaw at levels [6, 8-11, 14-20] (narrowing the gap by between 1.02-3.49 DPR), and (extremely slightly) favorable for the stiletto at levels 7 and 12.

Applying three size increases constitutes a +14 increase for the stiletto and a +17.5 increase for the chainsaw (2d6->6d6 vs. 3d6->8d6), which favors the stiletto compared to two size increases (again, due to its large accuracy and critical advantage).

Don't forget that size increases are a nerf to the stiletto. Your dexterity goes down with each increase. Were you taking that into account?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Kaidinah, I think they mean weapon-size increases, not character-size increases.

[Kaidinah]

Kaidinah, I think they mean weapon-size increases, not character-size increases.Even then, you are allowed only one actual and one virtual size increase. Virtual size increases only take you so far.

[Milo v3]

Even then, you are allowed only one actual and one virtual size increase. Virtual size increases only take you so far.

Well, one set of actual and one set of virtual, and there is also size increases from simply being made at a different size as well.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Even then, you are allowed only one actual and one virtual size increase. Virtual size increases only take you so far.

There's no limitation on how big (except for colossal) a weapon can be. Usually, when people talk about weapon-size increases, they're meaning from default size. Medium.

You can make a colossal knife. I don't see the point, but you can.

...No wait, giant robots. Yeah, I see a point there.

[Milo v3]

Can mechs use mindblades, do the mindblades resize to be appropriate for the mech or do they remain the size appropriate for the pilot as normal?

[Kiton2]

You generate mindblades, soulbolts, hand cannons, etc etc etc appropriate to your size, so since mechs are just 'armor' that increases *your* size, they'd be enlarged to fit your new size.

Given the price multipliers, the bigger the user, the more money you actually save as a soulknife; yet another reason why they tend to be the only reasonable (discipline shapes) tech weapon users currently in the game.

[Mithril Leaf]

Would manifesting Expansion and/or Compression while within a Mech change the size of the mech?

[Kiton2]

Since it's worn, it should.
If it didn't, one might have a real mess to clean out...

[MilleniaAntares]

I rather like the Armor Penetration stuff, but I'm curious whether it should be in this supplement rather than, say, Steelforge. Then again, I'm not quite sure how you guys do stuff in the background.

[tekevil]

Steelforge seems more Fantasy in general and I'd say Firearms fit in better with Tech instead of general fantasy.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there any reason that the Psychic Energizer which has a weaker effect than the Circlet of the Sheltered Mind is almost 5 times as expensive as it? It's still more than 3 times as expensive after factoring in adding it to another item.

[Axebird]

I rather like the Armor Penetration stuff, but I'm curious whether it should be in this supplement rather than, say, Steelforge. Then again, I'm not quite sure how you guys do stuff in the background.

A mechanic identical to armor penetration was one of the nonmagical item enhancements in Steelforge briefly, before it was binned.

[PsyBomb]

A mechanic identical to armor penetration was one of the nonmagical item enhancements in Steelforge briefly, before it was binned.

It was binned for a couple of reasons, one of which is that it would have stepped on this system. We looked at both and found Ssalarn's to work better (and was already more thoroughly integrated, rather than a part of a subsystem off to the side). I'll likely be adding an AP nonmagical enhancement later on, now that we're on a unified idea of how it should go. And now, back to Arcforge...

I may be biased, but I really like the Eclipse. Need to do a test build on it, especially on the durability of lesser mechs to see if they're likely to stand up to punishment. Also need to test for compatability with the other archetypes, haven't gotten a chance to yet.

[Ssalarn]

Couple big changes I'm looking at-

Swapping mechs from a natural armor bonus to an armor bonus.

Separating the Mech Piloting feat from the Psi-Core Upgrade feat. Anyone, regardless of access to a PP pool, will be able to grab a mech, but having a psi-core in mainframe mode will give you some bonuses to piloting.

I'm running a couple formulas and looking at how to address the way technological weapons interact with base assumptions of the game, and how to make that scale better. Basically, chainsaws are great when there's one, but really scary when there's one in every garage. I want to excuse that increased rocket tag element without taking away fun toys or forcing new math, so I'm kind of thinking the best thing to so is to introduce better technological armors, and then create a sliding scale for pricing- basically, the cheaper and more affordable technological weapons are in your setting, the cheaper and more affordable technological armor will be, so the two always exist in balanced opposition. That also means that if you live in a world where the garbage man has a mech for picking up the trash, the barbarian mercenary is probably going to have ready access to techno-armor that allows him take a chainsaw or laser rifle blast to the chest about as well as he currently takes a bolt or arrow.

Let me know what your thoughts or concerns are with these changes. Also-

There needs to be a sliding scale included in the supplement's assumptions, to adjust costs and prereqs according to your world. If you've got mech piloting trash guy, technological weapons should be cheap and the Technologist feat should either be a free bonus feat or waived entirely. If there's basically one tiny part of your world where a space station crashed and that's the source of all technology, tech should be more expensive, the Technologist feat should be required for most tech prereqs, etc.

Where do you guys feel you'd like that sliding scale to start? Do you think it's better for price and prereqs to assume a standard setting like Paizo's Golarion, where there might only be 1 mech piloting PC in the whole world, or do you want it to automatically assume that mechs are going to be everywhere?
The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.

(This should address some other questions, like "why is the Psychic Energizer chip priced as it is"- because it's a microchip planted in your brain. The more common cybernetic surgery is, the cheaper that chip should be. Exactly how much cheaper is something I intend to very clearly and specifically define.)

[Ssalarn]

I may be biased, but I really like the Eclipse. Need to do a test build on it, especially on the durability of lesser mechs to see if they're likely to stand up to punishment. Also need to test for compatability with the other archetypes, haven't gotten a chance to yet.

I love the Eclipse (though I did write it, so that might not count for much...)

It's going to be the boss fight in tomorrow night's game.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Why.. why ... why would you do this? Seriously guys, I just started a PoW heavy RotRL, and now I have all this neat toys that I want to use, but can't.... I'm half tempted to can the RotRL games and run Iron Gods just so I have a viable excuse to introduce this.

[Ssalarn]

Why.. why ... why would you do this? Seriously guys, I just started a PoW heavy RotRL, and now I have all this neat toys that I want to use, but can't.... I'm half tempted to can the RotRL games and run Iron Gods just so I have a viable excuse to introduce this.

Just refluff mechs as ancient Azlanti artifacts and put Karzoug in a colossal mech. I feel like it'll work.

[Mithril Leaf]

My vote is for pricing somewhere in the middle. It seems likely that if you are going to include mechs at all in your fantasy game, you will probably allow at least a reasonable amount of PC access to them. Maybe a kingdom of dwarves has them and you can reasonably commission them, but you can't get them at any old magic mart.

For reference, I am thinking around the level of Eberron.

[PsyBomb]

Personal thoughts on those:

Armor v Natural Armor: Armor bonus makes more sense, I think.

I like that idea for Psi-Core, since it helps the non-Psionic archetypes fit into the fluff much more easily.

On sliding scales: This is a good thing, though the trick is going to be in figuring out where the default will be. I'm in favor of the "Mechs are used in war, not to take out the trash" location. Balanced in cost against equivalent magic, since magic might well have been involved in making them (though not in its operations after that). The way I see it, if a GM is including this reference, his world is very likely to account for it.

I can see it either way, though.

[Nyaa]

Why do mecha cost money at all if they require feats to pilot?
If we pit random mecha pilots against equal wealth and level characters of the same tier without mecha, would they have favorable matchups against more than half of them? What if we use dungeons speedrunning or monster slaying test instead?

[Ssalarn]

Why do mecha cost money at all if they require feats to pilot?
If we pit random mecha pilots against equal wealth and level characters of the same tier without mecha, would they have favorable matchups against more than half of them? What if we use dungeons speedrunning or monster slaying test instead?

The cost for rebuilding/restoring class-based mechs exists primarily to help offset the WBL advantage they grant over non-mech classes (every mech is essentially granting free STR/DEX belts, and in many cases they're also offering transportation advantages). Other than that, they should stack up well (not too strong, not too weak) compared to same tier classes, though the additional utility they grant may be enough to help some Tier 4 classes close the gap to Tier 3.

[Cyrocloud]

Looks really cool so far and I look forward to all the crazy awesome stuff to come out of this. I have a few questions though. Will there be options for mechs to get natural weapons, like claws, bites and slams? And if so will they be a new type of weapon affinity for the mech or would they just end up being a mecha enhancement? Also does the pilot suffer from non-proficiency penalties with weapons if the mech can use it and the pilot can't?

[stack]

Strongly agree about armor instead of NA. Wanted to mention that sooner and it slipped my mind.

Base pricing should probably correspond to adding the system to default Golarion+psionics, though I would love to play in a tech setting. Had a game idea for that once, never ran it (After the tech guide came out I thought of a campaign where the players were NPC classes, explorers crash-landed on a high-psionics planet. With dinosaurs. Using the tech to survive until they adapted, retraining NPC levels to new classes.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

Had a game idea for that once, never ran it (After the tech guide came out I thought of a campaign where the players were NPC classes, explorers crash-landed on a high-psionics planet. With dinosaurs. Using the tech to survive until they adapted, retraining NPC levels to new classes.)

The 80s called.


http://www.dinoridersworld.com/TradeAd1.jpg


They wanted to know if you could hang out for a bit.

[stack]

The 80s called.


http://www.dinoridersworld.com/TradeAd1.jpg


They wanted to know if you could hang out for a bit.

I had them and yes, I would like to hang out.

Heck, I've got kids and Imaginex has a dino-rider line, so I don't even need the 80s.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Don't need the 80s? Now you're just talking crazy, man. I think we both know how much the 80s are needed at a time like this.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr2iQ96em2w


Seriously, how else are you gonna get around when you don't have a dino to ri-

Wow, I just realised that not one of us asked if Arcforge would have cars of some sort. Eight pages before that happened, unless I just missed someone else asking that.

Now if you'll excuse me, my mean ol' brain needs me to watch the Bots Master intro four times in a row... Maybe five.

[Milo v3]

The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.

(This should address some other questions, like "why is the Psychic Energizer chip priced as it is"- because it's a microchip planted in your brain. The more common cybernetic surgery is, the cheaper that chip should be. Exactly how much cheaper is something I intend to very clearly and specifically define.)
I don't think this is a good enough reason. I mean look at the ability modifier cybertech, they are equal in price to their magical counterparts. The dermal plating costs the same as amulets of natural armour. Also the pricing rules for technological items states "When pricing a new technological item, use the existing guidelines for estimating magic item value." The psychic energizer chips should be worth the same as the magical version of the item.

As for scaling prices, I think that is only appropriate to if as the prices scale, so do the items power. Since they are meant to be equivalent to magic items.

[Ssalarn]

I don't think this is a good enough reason. I mean look at the ability modifier cybertech, they are equal in price to their magical counterparts. The dermal plating costs the same as amulets of natural armour. Also the pricing rules for technological items states "When pricing a new technological item, use the existing guidelines for estimating magic item value." The psychic energizer chips should be worth the same as the magical version of the item.

As for scaling prices, I think that is only appropriate to if as the prices scale, so do the items power. Since they are meant to be equivalent to magic items.

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.

[Milo v3]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.
Based on that, skill slots would cost double, but their cost is equal to a skill increasing item.


The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.
What assumptions would changed aside from cost?

[Kaidinah]

The main reason I want to see a sliding scale for tech cost is that its hard to run a "tech" game when you need absurd amounts of gold to run with tech. It feels bad when you ask someone "Why does your future cop use a bow?" and they answer "Because cheap." Even basic tech gizmos cost a huge portion of your WBL.

Its like how "Guns everywhere" on the Ultimate Combat sliding scale drastically changes who will be using a gun, since anyone can use them at a reasonable cost. Though "Guns everywhere" has the downside of sidelining armor without any alternatives. At least "tech everywhere" doesn't do that as much, since tech defensive items work on guns.

[Milo v3]

The main reason I want to see a sliding scale for tech cost is that its hard to run a "tech" game when you need absurd amounts of gold to run with tech. It feels bad when you ask someone "Why does your future cop use a bow?" and they answer "Because cheap." Even basic tech gizmos cost a huge portion of your WBL.

Its like how "Guns everywhere" on the Ultimate Combat sliding scale drastically changes who will be using a gun, since anyone can use them at a reasonable cost. Though "Guns everywhere" has the downside of sidelining armor without any alternatives. At least "tech everywhere" doesn't do that as much, since tech defensive items work on guns.

How do you deal with breaking WBL though?

[Mithril Leaf]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.



Would that not double the 7500 price point?

[Milo v3]

Would that not double the 7500 price point?

Yeah.... Circlet = 7500. Slotless Circlet = 15000. Energizer = 36,400.

[Forrestfire]

Personal thoughts on those:

Armor v Natural Armor: Armor bonus makes more sense, I think.

I like that idea for Psi-Core, since it helps the non-Psionic archetypes fit into the fluff much more easily.

On sliding scales: This is a good thing, though the trick is going to be in figuring out where the default will be. I'm in favor of the "Mechs are used in war, not to take out the trash" location. Balanced in cost against equivalent magic, since magic might well have been involved in making them (though not in its operations after that). The way I see it, if a GM is including this reference, his world is very likely to account for it.

I can see it either way, though.

I agree with this. I think that overall, the cost of the tech items should be based on how difficult such an ability would be to get normally, based on WBL being a level gate and general indicator of what sorts of items a character will have at what levels. It feels like it needlessly punishes people who want to use technological items, compared to magic items, if the tech items are inflated arbitrarily just because they're tech.

At the same time, there are definitely some issues with tech and magic combining, and with some of the lower cost technological items (like the chainsaw). One thing that might work to deal with that for technological weapons and armor, at least, could be to slightly change how they interact with being enchanted. If a chainsaw is the equivalent of a +2 weapon on its own, then perhaps stating in its rules for this system that it's treated as a +2 weapon for the purposes of being enchanted, and pricing it as such, would be a possible solution. Could call it a complexity rating, with the idea being that more complex technological items are significantly more difficult to bind magic to as a result of all the "moving parts," so to speak, compared to something like a sword.

Perhaps an item with a Complexity of n counts as masterwork, and adds its complexity score to its enhancement bonus for the purposes of overcoming DR. Since in this scenario, the hypothetical Complex Chainsaw would count as a +2 weapon for being enchanted, you could stick weapon special abilities on it without needing it to have a +1 beforehand (that surcharge has already been paid), and the first +1 worth of enhancement or abilities would cost 10,000gp (the difference between +2 and +3), instead of 2,000gp as normal for a weapon.

This could also open up a decent amount of design space for more powerful technological weapons. A weapon of some strength could map to the power level expected out of some price of weapon (since it's no longer "just" a weapon, it's a weapon that's technologically advanced to the point that it rivals powerful magic), and you'd know that it would never quite overtake a normal weapon and break the game, because it has a power level cap built in. Some sort of wave motion antimatter rifle might be the equivalent of a +5 weapon, and have abilities and price to match. In practice, it's basically a unique sort of weapon that has abilities on par with a +5 weapon (maybe it does a lot of damage and blasts an entire square worth of area (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/seeking), while its aftermath rends magic to shreds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Suppression)).

[twas_Brillig]

I love it, both as a combined sci-fi/fantasy concept and an Escaflowne-y Magic Robots concept. This whole doc is wonderfully tropey, and I can't wait to see the other archetypes come out.
A couple thoughts:

The squad leader archetype makes me think there should be a thrallherd variant centered around controlling mechs, or people in mechs, or brains-in-boxes controlling mechs.
The Mech Pilots, Technological Feats, and Technological Weapons links at top of the Expanded Playtest doc require permissions, do not link to other parts of the doc. The other links seem to work as intended.
Is there any actually mechanical effect for stuck to the string launcher? RAW nothing happens--except that the wielder needs to reel it in as a free action. Should movement be restricted? Automatic damage? Can it be used like a grappling hook, ala that one crossbow?
The rocket glove should be explicit, re: interaction between charges and AP. From the flavor text I'm assuming that it's usable as a normal gauntlet without AP, or you can spend charge to attack with it with AP?
If you're worried about mechs initiating, remember that any aegis with unrestricted customizations can potentially pick up Initiator's Soul. Actually, any manifester in a campaign with the Psionics Augmented: Soulknife can do that for part of the day via the Form Astral Armor power.

[Prime32]

I'm not sure if it fits the direction you're going, but what are your thoughts on "mech beasts" that have animal-level intelligence and embody the power of nature? I'm thinking instead of bonding to a lion as an animal companion, a druid can bond to an ancient lion construct. It can either fight on its own or be piloted by its owner, and while being piloted it can reconfigure into a humanoid form. Making it an animal companion archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes), gated behind feats if necessary, would potentially allow clerics, druids, oracles, paladins and rangers to access it, while still leaving room for a mech-based druid archetype that takes a different approach.


Separating the Mech Piloting feat from the Psi-Core Upgrade feat. Anyone, regardless of access to a PP pool, will be able to grab a mech, but having a psi-core in mainframe mode will give you some bonuses to piloting.
http://i.imgur.com/xNm44LZ.jpg
Sounds good.


Where do you guys feel you'd like that sliding scale to start? Do you think it's better for price and prereqs to assume a standard setting like Paizo's Golarion, where there might only be 1 mech piloting PC in the whole world, or do you want it to automatically assume that mechs are going to be everywhere?
The current design assumption, and my personal preference, is that things are priced and gated for a lower tech world where technology is exceedingly rare, and then the sliding scale would allow you to make technology cheaper and more accessible the farther you moved away from that assumption.Maybe something like:

No Mechs:
Legendary Mechs: Mechs are considered artefacts, and the PCs are the only ones in the world with access to them. However, they have no logistics costs - either they automatically repair damage and replenish ammunition over time, or they come with artefact-level repair facilities.
Black Box Mechs: The technology to create new mechs from scratch does not exist, but existing mechs can be repaired and modified. Many nations have access to them, but not in large numbers.
Commonplace Mechs: Most nations have the ability to create mechs, but their cost means that they are used only by elite troops.
Mechs Everywhere: Mech technology is widespread, with new models being developed at a breakneck pace. Armies consist entirely of mech pilots, and unarmed mechs are even used by civilians. Each PC gets a personal mech for free, or some kind of bonus if they already had a mech.

With "Black Box Mechs" as the default?

[PsyBomb]

The chip actually has a price multiplier applied for technically being "slotless" (yes, it takes the Brain slot, but that's a slot specific to technology). So the math actually isn't that off.

The thing with most technological items and weapons though (and what I'm primarily referring to), is that their base performance is higher than a non-tech, non-magical standard item or weapon. A chainsaw, for example, is in most ways as good as a +2 magical weapon. Same for non-magical laser weapons, rocket launchers, etc. So, if we want to play with those earlier, we need to tweak the assumptions of the game.

Actually, let's take a look at this. A Chainsaw is 2,700gp. A +1 Falchion is the closest comparable standard weapon and costs 2,375 (which puts it in the same range). Let's assume a level 6 Fighter with 22 effective strength, Weapon Training in the appropriate group, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and Furious Focus. Target definition is 19 AC, On the initial attack, he'll charge and make one good attack. I'll skip writing out the calculations here, as I'm running it on my spreadsheet to make things quick.

Chainsaw is attacking at +16=6(BAB)+6(Str)+2(charge)+1(WF)+1(WT) for 90% accuracy
Chainsaw damage is 3d6+17 (9(Str)+6(PA)+1(WS)+1(WT), average 27.5)
Expected damage is 32.175 after crit and accuracy

Falchion is attacking at +17 (+1 enhancement over the Chainsaw) for 95% accuracy
Falchion damage is 2d4+18 (average 23, again, +1 enhancement over Chainsaw)
Expected damage is 28.405 after crit and accuracy

That is actually a very minor difference, let's see what happens on a standing full attack. Damage numbers are the same

Chainsaw is attacking at +14/+7, for 80% and 45% accuracy
Expected damage is 28.6 and 16.0875, totaling 44.6875

Falchion is attacking at +15/+8, for 85% and 50% accuracy
Expected damage is 25.415 and 14.95, totaling 40.365

Same thing happens here, but notably the falchion is going to fall steadily behind as the levels climb and different bonuses accrue. a +2 Falchion is 8,375gp, while a +1 Chainsaw is only 4,700. Size increases also HEAVILY favor the chainsaw.

Make of it what you will, I have to head out for the night.

[freduncio]

Reactor Knight's Overdrives ability requires him to expend his psionic focus... but he could only gain a psionic focus at 4th level, when he gets his first power points (exception being naturally psionic races). Maybe add a clause in Reduced Manifesting stating that he could gain psionic focus even without a power point reserve, OR give him a power point reserve of 1 from levels 1-3.

[Taveena]

How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency come into this? Seems like a Fauchard would be a fairer comparison, though admittedly the difference between 2d4 and 1d10 is only an extra 0.5 damage on average.

[MilleniaAntares]

I think a feat that increases your mech level by 4 (up to your own character level) would probably be appreciated. Especially for archetypes such as the eclipse, if the " get character level +4 mech levels and distribute them" interpretation is correct.

[Taveena]

Okay. Some... questions about design intent here. I'm not exactly amazing at seeing potential uses of abilities, but.

The Eclipse, like the Broodmaster, seems... like kind of a terrible idea? Multiple mechs with your level split up between them seems kind of garbage even if they were able to act independently. Why are you ever going to want one pilot-level 9 mech and one pilot-level 1 mech? The latter is going to have terrible stats and accomplish very little. And a more even split - say, 5/5 - is going to be terrible against any enemy of an appropriate level.

The Squad Leader, meanwhile- Where are they getting these mechs from? Are you able to get more mechs that easily? Do you just need to have a bunch of giant robots following the party around like lobotomized Transformers?? Could an Eclipse have a split so that they have an unpiloted mech which is controlled by both the Eclipse and the Squad Leader?

I'm very uncertain as to when this archetype is meant to be useful, because- Well, if Mechs are a class feature, then there aren't going to be many unpiloted mechs. If the Mechs are a treasure item, then it's only going to be useful if for some reason the DM is throwing a TON of mechs at you AND they're very cheap.

[MilleniaAntares]

Perhaps the Eclipse's abilities may work better if - independent action aside - their class features worked with other PCs's (and NPC's) mechs? Admittedly it might be off-brand to have a psionic class feature that works on "allies within X feet" rather than "allies in collective", but...

Maybe it would be possible to have something akin to drones (or even funnels), as unpiloted mechs smaller than small? They could be designed so that the PC's main mech is "level - X", while also allowing them some sort of (modified?) progression and limited customization, as well as minor quality of life improvements such as evasion.

Depending on your design goals, the funnels could even be just a tactician thing, the same way many of the psywar's abilities belong to only it.

[TerrickTerran]

Just saw this thread but totally interested. Can't wait to see it in full.

[twas_Brillig]

Structured and Advanced Devastation don't have a duration, or any kind of limit to how many traps can be attached to a single mech. On the one hand, that means you can buff the first attack a mech makes pretty arbitrarily high. On the other, they all go off on that first attack. What if you could attach trap(s) to weapon slots and natural attacks (meaning weapons that take multiple slots could have multiple traps), and 1 went off for each attack (2 for Advanced Devastation). Makes individual attacks less ridiculous, but lets you stash a few of them. That's assuming this kind of prebuffing is RAI, of course.

[Ssalarn]

Structured and Advanced Devastation don't have a duration, or any kind of limit to how many traps can be attached to a single mech. On the one hand, that means you can buff the first attack a mech makes pretty arbitrarily high. On the other, they all go off on that first attack. What if you could attach trap(s) to weapon slots and natural attacks (meaning weapons that take multiple slots could have multiple traps), and 1 went off for each attack (2 for Advanced Devastation). Makes individual attacks less ridiculous, but lets you stash a few of them. That's assuming this kind of prebuffing is RAI, of course.

Yeah, that's totally the RAI. Great feedback! I'll make those tweaks.

[Kaidinah]

Okay. Some... questions about design intent here. I'm not exactly amazing at seeing potential uses of abilities, but.

The Eclipse, like the Broodmaster, seems... like kind of a terrible idea? Multiple mechs with your level split up between them seems kind of garbage even if they were able to act independently. Why are you ever going to want one pilot-level 9 mech and one pilot-level 1 mech? The latter is going to have terrible stats and accomplish very little. And a more even split - say, 5/5 - is going to be terrible against any enemy of an appropriate level.

The Squad Leader, meanwhile- Where are they getting these mechs from? Are you able to get more mechs that easily? Do you just need to have a bunch of giant robots following the party around like lobotomized Transformers?? Could an Eclipse have a split so that they have an unpiloted mech which is controlled by both the Eclipse and the Squad Leader?

I'm very uncertain as to when this archetype is meant to be useful, because- Well, if Mechs are a class feature, then there aren't going to be many unpiloted mechs. If the Mechs are a treasure item, then it's only going to be useful if for some reason the DM is throwing a TON of mechs at you AND they're very cheap.
I did notice that regardless of the Eclipse and Squad Leader's mecha HD, they get the character's BAB and feats. In the Eclipse's case, they can still fire that 1d6+level touch attack (or 1d6+cha+level with a feat), no matter the HD. So the mechs will lose a bit of power, but not much. They will have significantly less hardness and HP on the other hand.

Also, it was confirmed in a thread on another forum that there will be purchasable mecha that have set HD. I would imagine that these mecha would be the ones that a Squad Leader would seek out. Squad Leader seems like it would benefit most from a higher tech setting in general though.

[Ssalarn]

Okay. Some... questions about design intent here. I'm not exactly amazing at seeing potential uses of abilities, but.

The Eclipse, like the Broodmaster, seems... like kind of a terrible idea? Multiple mechs with your level split up between them seems kind of garbage even if they were able to act independently. Why are you ever going to want one pilot-level 9 mech and one pilot-level 1 mech? The latter is going to have terrible stats and accomplish very little. And a more even split - say, 5/5 - is going to be terrible against any enemy of an appropriate level.

There's some really key differences between the Broodmaster and Eclipse you're overlooking here-
1) Mechs use the pilot's BAB. This means that the individual mechs have a much higher chance to hit than a Broodmaster's zerglings or a Beastmaster's beasts.

2) The Eclipse's mechs are both ranged, and tied to a class that specializes in debuffs, meaning they're less likely to take damage than their non-mech counterparts.

3) Mechs have Hardness and halve incoming energy damage. That means they're vastly more resistant to AoEs and similar options that are normally the bane of lower hit die pets. I ran some numbers discussing this earlier in the thread.

4) The Eclipse's mechs drop the ambient light level when there are multiple of them within the same area, potentially granting themselves concealment or even blinding their foes (depending on the enemy and normal light level).

Basically, the downsides of classes like the Broodmaster are going to be much smaller factors in the chassis of the Eclipse and its mechs, while the benefits will also be increased.



The Squad Leader, meanwhile- Where are they getting these mechs from? Are you able to get more mechs that easily? Do you just need to have a bunch of giant robots following the party around like lobotomized Transformers?? Could an Eclipse have a split so that they have an unpiloted mech which is controlled by both the Eclipse and the Squad Leader?

I'm very uncertain as to when this archetype is meant to be useful, because- Well, if Mechs are a class feature, then there aren't going to be many unpiloted mechs. If the Mechs are a treasure item, then it's only going to be useful if for some reason the DM is throwing a TON of mechs at you AND they're very cheap.

The squad leader will be able to control other party members mechs if that is a factor, or any of the (currently unavailable in the playtest) non-class granted mechs. It's important to keep in mind that even one loader mech is potentially a substantial buff to the SL's mech, and allowing him to run with the megazord while the rest of the party deals with another obstacle is potentially a big deal.

[Mithril Leaf]

Do you remember the psionic tattoo circuits Web Enhancement? Because I would love something along those lines getting put into Pathfinder.

[Taveena]

Alright, sweet. Worries assuaged.