Do Monks have competitive damage?

[Ardantis]

I know that a Monk is not meant to be a primary damage dealer, and with Stunning Strike they become the party melee debuffer. But how much damage do they do?

A character with no damage who is not using Great Weapons but has Extra Attack maxes out at 1d8+5/1d8+5.

So far as I can tell, Monks deal variable fist damage plus a 1d4 bonus attack from Martial Arts. Two bonus attacks if they use Flurry of Blows.

SO

That means at level one at 16 Dex they're doing 1d4+3/1d4+3. At level 10 I think they have 1d8 fist damage, so with max Dex that's 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5/1d4+5.

With to-hit included in the calculation, what sort of damage are they able to get up to? And how does this compare to primary damage dealers like Fighter and Barbarian?

Is the Open Hand ability to Shove and deal damage for Flurry of Blows that powerful? Does shoving first to get advantage significantly improve DPR?

Someone get Kryx in here.

[Longcat]

It depends a lot on whether your game allows Feats. If -5/+10 feats and Bonus Action attack feats are in, then the Monk does not deal competitive damage as they do not benefit from either feat, whereas other martial classes do.

[Malifice]

At low levels yes.

They fall behind after 5th, however then Stunning fist comes into play.

Monks are a highly mobile 'striker' with fantastic defences that gets their oomph from stunning fist lockdowns on high priority targets. They require a fair bit of skill to use right, but when they are, they can be a DM's worst nightmare.

There is more to a class than DPR. Paladins are DPR machines. However in a one on one with a Monk, they're gonna struggle big time (Resilient: Con and a pimped out Con and Cha will help v the stunning, but then they gotta worry about getting kited to death).

[Psikerlord]

It depends a lot on whether your game allows Feats. If -5/+10 feats and Bonus Action attack feats are in, then the Monk does not deal competitive damage as they do not benefit from either feat, whereas other martial classes do.

If you remove the -5/+10 of the GWM and SS from the optional feats, all classes have competitive damage, inc monks. If you allow the -5/+10 mechanic at all, I recommend using it as a "called shot" rule that anyone can use with any attack roll.

If you simply allow GWM and SS as written, you will get "strikers" like in 4e, being anyone using those feats (combined with bless, magic weapons etc).

So it depends on what you and your table want. How close you want PC damage to be, relative to one another? Personally I like all PC damage to be in the same ballpark most of the time. A player can always choose paladin for single target smity burst goodness.

[DracoKnight]

I know that a Monk is not meant to be a primary damage dealer, and with Stunning Strike they become the party melee debuffer. But how much damage do they do?

A character with no damage who is not using Great Weapons but has Extra Attack maxes out at 1d8+5/1d8+5.

So far as I can tell, Monks deal variable fist damage plus a 1d4 bonus attack from Martial Arts. Two bonus attacks if they use Flurry of Blows.

SO

That means at level one at 16 Dex they're doing 1d4+3/1d4+3. At level 10 I think they have 1d8 fist damage, so with max Dex that's 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5/1d4+5.

With to-hit included in the calculation, what sort of damage are they able to get up to? And how does this compare to primary damage dealers like Fighter and Barbarian?

Is the Open Hand ability to Shove and deal damage for Flurry of Blows that powerful? Does shoving first to get advantage significantly improve DPR?

Someone get Kryx in here.

The Monk's Martial Arts for Flurry of Blows goes up with level. Just so you know. So it's not 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5/1d4+5, it's 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d8+5/1d8+5

[Mato]

But how much damage do they do?A decent amount.

On martial arts, you can use your special die in place of your monk weapon's die. So at the 10th level, which is a d6 instead of a d8, it doesn't matter if the monk uses his unarmed strike or a dagger as they both are 1d6. Now if he wields a qstaff in two hands, it still uses it's d8 because you have to choice of replacing the weapons die.

The main benefit is a monk makes three attacks at the 1st level instead of one. And by the 5th level he has four attacks. So instead of say 2d6+4*2 (22 avg) he deals 1d6+4*4 (30 avg). Strength increasing belts and per-hit increases to damage in his hands scales more than the same bonuses in the hands of a barbarian, ranger, or paladin.

But it's important to remember the monk is a nerfed utility combatant. Other classes have other focuses, like a barbarian is defensive, a ranger needed new content patching him, the paladin is a king and the fighter is pure offense.

[Tenmujiin]

The standard attacks can be made with any weapon and you can still spend ki to flurry of blows while the attacks can be made with any monk weapon and still trigger martial arts.
So their level 1 optimised damage is 1d8+3/1d4+3, once they get flurry then can spend ki for 1d8+3/1d4+3/1d4+3 and with extra attack it becomes 1d8+4/1d8+4/1d6?+4/1d6?+4.
Alternately they can wield a greatsword (if they get proficiency somehow) at level 5 for 1d12+4/1d12+4/1d6+4/1d6+4 on turns they spend ki (not sure how optimal this is since you need to focus strength and can't bonus action attack without spending ki but the image amuses me and it is rules legal)

[Malifice]

The standard attacks can be made with any weapon and you can still spend ki to flurry of blows while the attacks can be made with any monk weapon and still trigger martial arts.
So their level 1 optimised damage is 1d8+3/1d4+3, once they get flurry then can spend ki for 1d8+3/1d4+3/1d4+3 and with extra attack it becomes 1d8+4/1d8+4/1d6?+4/1d6?+4.
Alternately they can wield a greatsword (if they get proficiency somehow) at level 5 for 1d12+4/1d12+4/1d6+4/1d6+4 on turns they spend ki (not sure how optimal this is since you need to focus strength and can't bonus action attack without spending ki but the image amuses me and it is rules legal)

If they attack with the greatsword they cant use the martial arts class feature (bigger damage dice).

So 1 point of damage with unarmed strikes when they attack with a greatsword.

[Mr.Moron]

I'll let you know I what I find when I get to the competition.

[Tanarii]

That means at level one at 16 Dex they're doing 1d4+3/1d4+3. At level 10 I think they have 1d8 fist damage, so with max Dex that's 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5/1d4+5.You'll have to explain how you got those numbers.

A first level monk can use a two-handed spear or quarterstaff for 1d8+3, bonus action 1d4+3. From second level on they can spend Ki for another 1d4+3 with Flurry.

When the Martial Arts die increases, all MA related attacks increase. So a Flurry from a d8 Dex 20 Monk with Extra Attack is four attacks at d8+5. Three without a Flurry.

The non-flurry is roughly comparable to a d8+5+5d6 Rogue Sneak Attack, or a Great Weapon character with fighting style and feat doing two attacks at 2d6+15 (reroll 1-2) with a lower hit chance. Assuming all have advantage. It doesn't account for things like bonus action attacks (twf, Polearm master) or class abilities (hunters Mark, horde breaker, smite, third fighter attack) though.

[Tanarii]

If they attack with the greatsword they cant use the martial arts class feature (bigger damage dice).

So 1 point of damage with unarmed strikes when they attack with a greatsword.
Can they even flurry? Pretty sure the non-flurry bonus attack requires attacking with a melee monk weapon, but not sure about flurry.

[Malifice]

Can they even flurry? Pretty sure the non-flurry bonus attack requires attacking with a melee monk weapon, but not sure about flurry.

Flurry is OK from memory, and stunning strike can be used with any weapon (even a Barb that dipped 5 levels of Monk - they can now stunning fist with a Greataxe).

[Tanarii]

Not that flurry would be all that great with 1 pt instead of MA dice, as you pointed out.

[Malifice]

Not that flurry would be all that great with 1 pt instead of MA dice, as you pointed out.

Yeah. Although you could still stun with those extra attacks so it might be worth it, even if the damage is piddling.

I like my Monks to use either a Jian (Wuxia) or a Katana (Kensai) - both re-fluffed shortswords. I also like to dip BM Fighter after 5th for 3 levels for (action surge, sup dice, manouvers) and a Fighting style (dueling or mariner are the best; archery a decent choice also).

Just opens up so many options, and increases damage considerably.

[Mara]

Monks cap out at 4d10+20, but more reliably do 3d10+15

5th level you are looking at 3d6+12 or 4d6+16 when bursting

At 8th that picks up to 3d6+15 or 4d6+20

At 11th that increases to 3d8+15 or 4d8+20

At 7th your damage maxes out.

The damage is a little subpar for a martial, but it comes with other very nice things.

[Kryx]

You can always see the DPR on my DPR of Classes sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=655309186).

A monk does about the same DPR of a Rogue. His numbers are a bit more guesswork due to stunning strike, but they're quite competitive with his tier of competitors (Rogue, S&B, secondary melee role).
The monk also has higher defenses and some cool tricks.

Some reference points:

1
Monk 9
Rogue 11
Fighter S&B (dueling) 7
Paladin S&B (dueling) 6
Fighter Polearm 7
Fighter Longbow 5
Fighter Hand Crossbow 6
EB 7
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 5

5
Monk 20
Rogue 16
Fighter S&B (dueling) 19
Paladin S&B (dueling) 14
Fighter Polearm 23
Fighter Longbow 20
Fighter Hand Crossbow 14
EB 15
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 9

11
Monk 27
Rogue 27
Fighter S&B (dueling) 36
Paladin S&B (dueling) 27
Fighter Polearm 40
Fighter Longbow 36
Fighter Hand Crossbow 37
EB 25
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 13

17
Monk 35
Rogue 36
Fighter S&B (dueling) 41
Paladin S&B (dueling) 35
Fighter Polearm 54
Fighter Longbow 40
Fighter Hand Crossbow 47
EB 51
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 17

20
Monk 35
Rogue 39
Fighter S&B (dueling) 52
Paladin S&B (dueling) 36
Fighter Polearm 67
Fighter Longbow 52
Fighter Hand Crossbow 59
EB 51
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 17


These numbers are with the monk spending half his ki on stunning and half on flurry at all tiers.




If you remove the -5/+10 of the GWM and SS from the optional feats, all classes have competitive damage, inc monks. If you allow the -5/+10 mechanic at all, I recommend using it as a "called shot" rule that anyone can use with any attack roll.
Agreed. All classes or no classes. The math shows this as well - more balanced.

I choose none as that balance is much better.

[Citan]

Flurry is OK from memory, and stunning strike can be used with any weapon (even a Barb that dipped 5 levels of Monk - they can now stunning fist with a Greataxe).

Indeed it's ok by RAW to be a Monk who makes Extra Attack with Stunning GWM greataxe before unleashing a Flurry of Blows...

Although it's very akward to play and discordant fluff-wise imo.

Imagine a Monk with a huge greatsword (huh, okay?) dealing its usual Extra Attack, trying to stun them at the same time (how? They pour their vital energy through the blade? huh, okay* *bis repetitae) then...
Either drop just one hand and, while still more or less holding their two-handed weapon with one hand, they make two quick attacks with the other (huh... okayyyy?)
OR, fully drop the weapon on the ground (a tactically fine choice indeed) to make their Flurry of Blows. \o/
OR (let's blow it all), throw the two-handed weapon gracefully above him in the air, just high enough to place two unarmed strikes before catching the weapon without batting an eye. \o\/o/|o|

... Seriously?

I think they didn't think about optimizers because such a feat (haha) mechanically requires multiclassing (or "wasting" a Feat on Skilled), so plainly impossible with basic rules. But while it's certainly RAW, it may not be RAI at all, and frankly, even if D&d is not supposed to be "realist" at all, there are some things awkward enough to be frowned upon.

I would be reticent to allow it as a standard tactic if I had to DM someone planning to use such a build (although I would authorize it from time to time on very good rolls or exceptional circumstances).

[Kryx]

You cannot unarmed strike without a monk weapon. Greatsword is not a good option.


When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn,

[Citan]

You cannot unarmed strike without a monk weapon. Greatsword is not a good option.
You're right, thanks. I had the feeling there was something wrong, but didn't make the full relationship between FoB seciton and MA. :)

You're not entirely right though, it's a bit more subtle. You still can make a Flurry of Blows after using Attack with non-monk weapon. Where you are right indeed is that you cannot use Martial Arts unarmed strikes (because you used a non-monk weapon), so you'll make as potent unarmed strikes as anyone (IIRC, it's 1 damage on each hit unless you take Tavern Brawler, right?).

So it's pointless. Technically viable by RAW, but pointless. I'm at ease now again.^^

[Kryx]

I believe that isn't RAI, but could indeed be RAW.

[Tenmujiin]

Indeed it's ok by RAW to be a Monk who makes Extra Attack with Stunning GWM greataxe before unleashing a Flurry of Blows...

Although it's very akward to play and discordant fluff-wise imo.

Imagine a Monk with a huge greatsword (huh, okay?) dealing its usual Extra Attack, trying to stun them at the same time (how? They pour their vital energy through the blade? huh, okay* *bis repetitae) then...
Either drop just one hand and, while still more or less holding their two-handed weapon with one hand, they make two quick attacks with the other (huh... okayyyy?)
OR, fully drop the weapon on the ground (a tactically fine choice indeed) to make their Flurry of Blows. \o/
OR (let's blow it all), throw the two-handed weapon gracefully above him in the air, just high enough to place two unarmed strikes before catching the weapon without batting an eye. \o\/o/|o|

... Seriously?

I think they didn't think about optimizers because such a feat (haha) mechanically requires multiclassing (or "wasting" a Feat on Skilled), so plainly impossible with basic rules. But while it's certainly RAW, it may not be RAI at all, and frankly, even if D&d is not supposed to be "realist" at all, there are some things awkward enough to be frowned upon.

I would be reticent to allow it as a standard tactic if I had to DM someone planning to use such a build (although I would authorize it from time to time on very good rolls or exceptional circumstances).

Because every unarmed attack has to be made with your fists right? As someone who has (a little) training in tai-kwon-do I can tell you that is straight up false.

As to the damage yea, for some reason I was under the impression that only the bonus attack part of martial arts required no non-monk weapons.

[Ardantis]

You can always see the DPR on my DPR of Classes sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=655309186).

A monk does about the same DPR of a Rogue. His numbers are a bit more guesswork due to stunning strike, but they're quite competitive with his tier of competitors (Rogue, S&B, secondary melee role).
The monk also has higher defenses and some cool tricks.

Some reference points:

1
Monk 9
Rogue 11
Fighter S&B (dueling) 7
Paladin S&B (dueling) 6
Fighter Polearm 7
Fighter Longbow 5
Fighter Hand Crossbow 6
EB 7
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 5

5
Monk 20
Rogue 16
Fighter S&B (dueling) 19
Paladin S&B (dueling) 14
Fighter Polearm 23
Fighter Longbow 20
Fighter Hand Crossbow 14
EB 15
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 9

11
Monk 27
Rogue 27
Fighter S&B (dueling) 36
Paladin S&B (dueling) 27
Fighter Polearm 40
Fighter Longbow 36
Fighter Hand Crossbow 37
EB 25
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 13

17
Monk 35
Rogue 36
Fighter S&B (dueling) 41
Paladin S&B (dueling) 35
Fighter Polearm 54
Fighter Longbow 40
Fighter Hand Crossbow 47
EB 51
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 17

20
Monk 35
Rogue 39
Fighter S&B (dueling) 52
Paladin S&B (dueling) 36
Fighter Polearm 67
Fighter Longbow 52
Fighter Hand Crossbow 59
EB 51
Cantrip (firebolt +stat) 17


These numbers are with the monk spending half his ki on stunning and half on flurry at all tiers.




Agreed. All classes or no classes. The math shows this as well - more balanced.

I choose none as that balance is much better.

Thank Kryx! That was the data I was looking for.

I checked your graphs and the data trends match up, but the breakpoints you provide here further illuminate the issue.

[deathbymanga]

the elemental Fist is actually a great Damage class. Fang of the Fire Snake makes your attacks just brutal.

[The_Ebolanator]

Imagine a Monk with a huge greatsword (huh, okay?) dealing its usual Extra Attack, trying to stun them at the same time (how? They pour their vital energy through the blade? huh, okay* *bis repetitae) then...
Either drop just one hand and, while still more or less holding their two-handed weapon with one hand, they make two quick attacks with the other (huh... okayyyy?)
OR, fully drop the weapon on the ground (a tactically fine choice indeed) to make their Flurry of Blows. \o/
OR (let's blow it all), throw the two-handed weapon gracefully above him in the air, just high enough to place two unarmed strikes before catching the weapon without batting an eye. \o\/o/|o|

The monk doesn't need to juggle anything. He can just kick instead.:smallwink:

[Ardantis]

the elemental Fist is actually a great Damage class. Fang of the Fire Snake makes your attacks just brutal.

There might be some disagreement on this.

[Shojiteru]

Im pretty sure the fire snake damage is only good in the encounter before the short rest. All ki will be gone after that.

The monk can just kick if he had a greatsword. I would love to see a low level monk use a greatsword with flurry to see if the numbers even out. 4d6 from attack and 2 damage for flurry. Yu are still proficienct in unarmed strike so you still get the bonus to hit. (MA is only for bonus action attack, finesse, and damage die). The only way this would be worth it despite just being awesome would be if magic greatswords came in at those low levels and you "borrow" it from the fighter a few levels then replace it when you get past level 10.

[Malifice]

There might be some disagreement on this.

At 5th you spend 1 ki point to trigger it, and gain reach.

You can then drop up to 2 more Ki points (assuming both attacks hit) to deal an extra d10 damage per hit.

Doesnt look like the extra d10 applies to flurry attacks though; only to attacks gained through the attack action (so at 5th level, the two).

Burning through 3 Ki in one round is pretty painful though.

[Mato]

Doesnt look like the extra d10 applies to flurry attacks though; only to attacks gained through the attack action (so at 5th level, the two).It's all four (or more). In order to gain the initial benefit you have to use an attack action, that bestows a reach style buff onto your attacks that lasts until the end of your turn. It's secondary effect is triggered when ever one of the reach style buffs hits. And since the choice is made per attack when it hits, you also don't lose ki for any missed attack.

And the ki cost isn't "a lot", but "balanced". At the 5th level a monk can slowly expend ki over the next round or two, or full on nova delivering up to 4d6+20+4d10 (avg 56) damage. If it cost anything less, it would be overpowering.

[Malifice]

It's all four (or more). In order to gain the initial benefit you have to use an attack action, that bestows a reach style buff onto your attacks that lasts until the end of your turn. It's secondary effect is triggered when ever one of the reach style buffs hits. And since the choice is made per attack when it hits, you also don't lose ki for any missed attack.

And the ki cost isn't "a lot", but "balanced". At the 5th level a monk can slowly expend ki over the next round or two, or full on nova delivering up to 4d6+20+4d10 (avg 56) damage. If it cost anything less, it would be overpowering.

On a second look:

When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet.

Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by 10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn.
A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra 1d10 fire damage.

It looks like you can indeed nova and at 5th level blow all your Ki in a round for an extra 4d10 damage.

[djreynolds]

I'm AFB, but Open Hand Monks are the only class that forces dexterity saves on their trip attack instead of strength save. This alone is huge.

Also remember there is no crazy cap stone like a barbarian's that say's "Go full Monk", so you could multiclass and dip fighter for his defensive style, too easy to do. And even a sorcerer dip for draconic ac bonus and the mage armor spell to boot. Or both and walk away with a 24 AC not including the mage armor from sorcerer, once dex and wis are maxed by 16th level. Too easy even with SPBI stats. And you can use the quarterstaff with pole-arm master, which come on, is cool for monks.

Awesome class alone. But a monk sorcerer is very viable build

[Malifice]

there is no crazy cap stone like a barbarian's that say's "Go full Monk", so you could multiclass and dip fighter for his defensive style, too easy to do.

Easy but pointless. Defense style only applies when you wear armor.


And even a sorcerer dip for draconic ac bonus and the mage armor spell to boot. Or both and walk away with a 24 AC not including the mage armor from sorcerer, once dex and wis are maxed by 16th level.

Dude. Mage armor, Draconic sorcerer AC and unarmored defence dont stack. You just pick the one.

Im a little spun out that you missed that.

[Shojiteru]

When you dip, remember go 1 level, 2 max. Dnt miss Empty Body! That makes Monks compare to barbarians. Advantage on all hits, disadvantage to attackers, resistance to all but force. Monks start as damage dealers, move to controllers, then end up as tanks. The way you play them changes when you level,

[Shojiteru]

Personally, it would be hard to pick a class that goes with the monk comhat wise.. casters add utility and martials add armour/weapon/str stuff.. i would go like druid, cleric, or bard for sheer utility but at 20, none would give you damage you can use with unarmed strikes which are d10. Only savage attacker can help monk unless you go strength or pray for belt of giant strength.

Te monk is a good hitter with good defense and is designed to never take a single point of damage. It's fine any way you look at it unless you want something specific

[djreynolds]

Easy but pointless. Defense style only applies when you wear armor.



Dude. Mage armor, Draconic sorcerer AC and unarmored defence dont stack. You just pick the one.

Im a little spun out that you missed that.

I think they do stack, AFB, but my little app allows it. Please verify it, if you have a book. I'm sorry if I'm wrong. correct on defensive style sorry I missed that. Good catch sir

[Shojiteru]

I think they do stack, AFB, but my little app allows it. Please verify it, if you have a book. I'm sorry if I'm wrong. correct on defensive style sorry I missed that. Good catch sir

I wish they did. Any time something gives you a choice on a AC formula, you only pick one.
13+dex OR 10+dex+wis OR 10+dex+con OR whatever. Dragon Sorcerer gets Mage Armour, Dragon, or armour.

[djreynolds]

I wish they did. Any time something gives you a choice on a AC formula, you only pick one.
13+dex OR 10+dex+wis OR 10+dex+con OR whatever. Dragon Sorcerer gets Mage Armour, Dragon, or armour.

Well that just sucks. I was planning on making a monk/sorcerer. Well I'm glad you guys burst my bubble here instead of in the game. Thanks

[PoeticDwarf]

First level, monk have the highest damage (without vhuman). With quarterstaff and fist they deal 1d8+1d4+6 and a fighter with two weapon fighting deals 2d6+6, but when you don't have bonus action make can then go for their best attack while fighter attacks are the same. Later the monk becomes weaker, about level 8 their damage becomes too bad because most martials will get a feat then for better damage, but stunning strike is such a good feature. I really like the monk because they deal maybe just decent damage, but without using ASI's and because they are mobile and have cool archetypes.

[Mara]

Well that just sucks. I was planning on making a monk/sorcerer. Well I'm glad you guys burst my bubble here instead of in the game. Thanks
Dragon Disciple could work. You start sorcerer then monk. Main dex/cha 5 monk 15 draconic sorcerer could be pretty badass.

[PoeticDwarf]

Well that just sucks. I was planning on making a monk/sorcerer. Well I'm glad you guys burst my bubble here instead of in the game. Thanks

That doesn't just suck, because you can otherwise just go 1 sorcerer / 1 monk / 18 barbarian or 18 monk 1 barbarian 1 sorcerer or 18 sorcerer. It all works and it gives a maximum AC of 28 without magic items.

[djreynolds]

We use our monk to harass they enemy and take out wizards and pesky archers. Their damage is more from the havoc they cause in ruining the enemy's game plan.

Fighter is holding the line, that's his job. The barbarian is there as well. Paladins are doing paladin stuff. The wizard is casting and the ranger is shooting next to the cleric with an 8 in dexterity just wasting bolts. I never know where the rogue is.

But the monk is running around. They are really great at penetrating enemy lines, and unlike the rogue, who I think is over there as well, the monk is not hiding. So now they enemy must contend with this possible threat who is very tough to hit and hits for 1d6 or 1d8. And the enemy gives chase, the enemy wizard throws up a protective spell that was going to be used to attack.

His presence is enough to change the game plan, saving the party's collective hit points and causing havoc on casters, or at least forcing them to expend spells on defense. That's damage in its own right.

[Malifice]

That doesn't just suck, because you can otherwise just go 1 sorcerer / 1 monk / 18 barbarian or 18 monk 1 barbarian 1 sorcerer or 18 sorcerer. It all works and it gives a maximum AC of 28 without magic items.

You don't stack unarmored defence.

You use one or the other (either con or wisdom).

Are we still having this discussion?

[djreynolds]

You don't stack unarmored defence.

You use one or the other (either con or wisdom).

Are we still having this discussion?

My fault, I knew you couldn't stack barbarian and monk, but I thought you could monk/sorcerer. My mistake I humbly apologize.

And no we are not still having this discussion, I was set straight. Thanks

Now I'm discussing how a monk's damage is more than hit points, its disruption of battle plans

[Malifice]

My fault, I knew you couldn't stack barbarian and monk, but I thought you could monk/sorcerer. My mistake I humbly apologize.

And no we are not still having this discussion, I was set straight. Thanks

Now I'm discussing how a monk's damage is more than hit points, its disruption of battle plans

I was talking to ender dwarf there mate.

I agree with you monks aren't good damage dealers. At low level they're Ok. Their main oomph comes from stunning fist, and the mobility and defences to deliver them where they hurt.

[Shojiteru]

Lets not forget at 18 they become tanks. Why use stunning strike when you always have advantage already. Sure they dont get a turn, but youre a monk so they would never hit you. Even if they tried, disadvantage.

Monk Tiers
1-4 Damage dealer
5-18 Controller
18-20 Tank

Seems only for 6 levels they can not be a controller with stunning strike.

[djreynolds]

Monks are very good class. They really have no need for feats. I like them. I think they don't have the big pop people want, but their staying power is fantastic. Their speed is off the charts. You just have to play one to really get the feel of it. The Ki point system can be "different" at first, but very fun when you get the hang of it. And when 14 is achieved, simply awesome.

[Kryx]

Non-stacking has been on sageadvice for months... cmon guys..

[Ceaon]

Well that just sucks. I was planning on making a monk/sorcerer. Well I'm glad you guys burst my bubble here instead of in the game. Thanks


That doesn't just suck, because you can otherwise just go 1 sorcerer / 1 monk / 18 barbarian or 18 monk 1 barbarian 1 sorcerer or 18 sorcerer. It all works and it gives a maximum AC of 28 without magic items.


You don't stack unarmored defence. (...) Are we still having this discussion?


(...) My mistake I humbly apologize. (...)


I was talking to ender dwarf there mate.

Ender Dwarf was saying "if". He's in agreement with you.

Edit: technically he was saying "otherwise". I agree the way he worded it makes it hard to parse.

[Mara]

Non-stacking has been on sageadvice for months... cmon guys..

Non-stacking is word for word in the PH.

Sageadvice is a pain to go through. I would be surprised if most people know it exist beyond the occasional forum citation.

[Kryx]

Non-stacking is word for word in the PH.
I know it was in the PHB, but many people didn't understand it apparently.

My point was that it is RAW and has been clarified long ago. There shouldn't be any confusion on it at this point

[MeeposFire]

I know it was in the PHB, but many people didn't understand it apparently.

My point was that it is RAW and has been clarified long ago. There shouldn't be any confusion on it at this point

I think it is less a problem of understanding and more of a problem of actually knowing it was there. I think it needs to be more prominently placed in the rules so that it is not so easily missed.

[Ardantis]

Monks are not a great dip.

[The_Ebolanator]

Monks are not a great dip.

I would disagree. I'm getting some lovely mileage out of my monk dip with my moon druid. As with any dip, it's all about context.

[BladeWing81]

I just saw a video for the new monk classes in the sword coast adventure guide, Sun soul monk seems really good

3rd lvl: your attacks are now long range radiant damage to up to 30 ft and spend 1 ki point to have flurry of long range blows
6th lvl: Extra attack burning hands for 2 ki points instead of flurry of blows, you may spend extra ki for more damage
11th lvl: Radiant fireball of 2d6 as an attack, you may add up to 3 ki points to get 2d6 for each ki point spent getting max 8d6 for 3 ki points
17th lvl: Radiant aura as a bonus action when hit with a melee attack use your reaction to hit back with 5+ Wis Mod

I Dub thee Dragon ball Z Monk!!

[L Space]

What if you went Monk with a dip in Rogue? Sneak attack with Stunning Fist should make a nice combo, unless it takes too many level dips (for the extra Sneak Attack dice) to be worth it.

[Arc-Royal]

I just saw a video for the new monk classes in the sword coast adventure guide, Sun soul monk seems really good

3rd lvl: your attacks are now long range radiant damage to up to 30 ft and spend 1 ki point to have flurry of long range blows
6th lvl: Extra attack burning hands for 2 ki points instead of flurry of blows, you may spend extra ki for more damage
11th lvl: Radiant fireball of 2d6 as an attack, you may add up to 3 ki points to get 2d6 for each ki point spent getting max 8d6 for 3 ki points
17th lvl: Radiant aura as a bonus action when hit with a melee attack use your reaction to hit back with 5+ Wis Mod

I Dub thee Dragon ball Z Monk!!
"Monk, take my energy!" ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

How are folks reading up on the SCAG stuff already? Is the PDF version out or something? I preordered the book through Amazon and won't get it until whenever it reaches me in November. Also, did they only add one monastic tradition, or did they add more?

EDIT: Disregard the question about how folks are reading up on it. I guess it's been [partially?] leaked.

[BladeWing81]

What if you went Monk with a dip in Rogue? Sneak attack with Stunning Fist should make a nice combo, unless it takes too many level dips (for the extra Sneak Attack dice) to be worth it.

I'm thinking about doing that with either shadow or open hand monk, on open hand I would take it at lvl 5. for shadow monk I would take it probably on lvl 11 after shadowstep then 3 rogue lvls to get cunning action and assassin build and 2d6 sneak attack on my first 2 attacks with a 1d8 dagger (counts as monk weapon).

[georgie_leech]

I'm thinking about doing that with either shadow or open hand monk, on open hand I would take it at lvl 5. for shadow monk I would take it probably on lvl 11 after shadowstep then 3 rogue lvls to get cunning action and assassin build and 2d6 sneak attack on my first 2 attacks with a 1d8 dagger (counts as monk weapon).

Worth noting that you can only Sneak Attack once per round. You just get multiple attempts at landing it with multiple attacks.

[BladeWing81]

Worth noting that you can only Sneak Attack once per round. You just get multiple attempts at landing it with multiple attacks.

correct! I meant I had two opportunities to hit a good sneak attack strike, add to that stunning strikes and you're basically giving out death sentences to any mage or boss.

[Tanarii]

EDIT: Disregard the question about how folks are reading up on it. I guess it's been [partially?] leaked.go to a gaming store. Buy it. I just happened to wander into my local store about three days ago and picked it off the shelves. Pro-order Amazon IMX is a way to get stuff long after its in the stores.

They also added Long Death tradition:
Level 3: get wis hps for a kill.
Level 6: frighten creatures in 30ft as an action
Level 11: relentless endurance by spending Ki
Level 17: spend ki for a necrotic touch attack

[BladeWing81]

go to a gaming store. Buy it. I just happened to wander into my local store about three days ago and picked it off the shelves. Pro-order Amazon IMX is a way to get stuff long after its in the stores.

They also added Long Death tradition:
Level 3: get wis hps for a kill.
Level 6: frighten creatures in 30ft as an action
Level 11: relentless endurance by spending Ki
Level 17: spend ki for a necrotic touch attack

Can you write specifics?
My info came from the reading of the abilities on a youtube video, If you have the book and you can write it here please do both traditions, the more the better!! :smallbiggrin:

[JAL_1138]

go to a gaming store. Buy it. I just happened to wander into my local store about three days ago and picked it off the shelves. Pro-order Amazon IMX is a way to get stuff long after its in the stores.


Yup, same here, bought mine on Saturday at the ol' FLGS. It hit shelves last week apparently, I think they said Monday (19th) or something.

Stick to brick-and-mortar shops if location and finances allow it.

EDIT: I know that's not always possible; I've lived on ramen noodles before and used to live in a podunk town that didn't have a bookstore at all, much less a FLGS.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yup, same here, bought mine on Saturday at the ol' FLGS. It hit shelves last week apparently, I think they said Monday (19th) or something.

Stick to brick-and-mortar shops if location and finances allow it.

EDIT: I know that's not always possible; I've lived on ramen noodles before and used to live in a podunk town that didn't have a bookstore at all, much less a FLGS. Our FLGS gave up on Wizards long ago, and no longer stocks their books. Warhammer 40K seems to be their core audience here, and the usual card game tournaments on the weekends.

[Icewraith]

Worth noting that you can only Sneak Attack once per round. You just get multiple attempts at landing it with multiple attacks.

Unless this was errata'd it's actually once per TURN, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. You can get SA on opportunity/reaction attacks, in other words.

[BladeWing81]

Can anyone that already bought the SCAG book please post the specifics of the two new monk archetypes? I have it preordered on amazon but it's not arriving until Nov. 9th. :smallfrown:

[georgie_leech]

Unless this was errata'd it's actually once per TURN, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. You can get SA on opportunity/reaction attacks, in other words.

...dangit. that's normally a thing I'm so careful about. I even knew it worked that way and I go and mix my words up. :smallredface:

[Dalebert]

Monks are very good class. They really have no need for feats.

Maybe they don't need feats, but dang a monk with Mobile. Mmm... Never again have to waste ki on bonus disengage. Instead use it for flurry of blows and disengage for free. You just upped your damage output. And stacks so nicely with a monk's extra speed and running on walls and and dashing across difficult terrain at full speed. If you want a character who can really blaze around the battlefield, this is the way to go.

I went wood elf for the 17 starting dex and +5 move. Will be taking Mobile at 4th and Athlete feat at 8th. Athlete is just icing but a nice compliment for a monk when it's almost free (due to the +1 dex). Standing from prone for just 5 feet is, I assume, a cool acrobatic maneuver where you push off the ground with your hands or something. Silly but it fits. And it makes it easier to jump; also monk-y.


What if you went Monk with a dip in Rogue? Sneak attack with Stunning Fist should make a nice combo, unless it takes too many level dips (for the extra Sneak Attack dice) to be worth it.

I'm not ruling out a one level dip for the extra d6 per turn that monks will get in a lot of cases, especially as a shadow monk who can teleport in and get adv. The extra skill and expertise will help buffer the pain of the dip. I'm thinking it might happen after 8th and my dex hits 18. I already have thieve's tools so I will replace that with poisoner's kit. My monk is built as a ninja and it all fits well.

[djreynolds]

I think once you get a hang of the Ki system, he works fine. I have and use a staff and other weapons. I'm not sure, but I think as long as you have a short sword equipped, which does scale, you can get the defensive duelist feat and this will make of up for uncanny dodge. But better bumping dex and wis and fit in defensive duelist as it is a reaction. Alert and mobile are fine feats can't argue their usefulness nor athlete, but a high dex coupled with acrobatics "should" help prevent trip ups. And I like athletics, being prone sucks.

Dipping rogue or fighter for two levels is sweet, but when is the question. If you're playing from level 1, getting to 5th is priority for that second attack. But if you start at 6th and don't roll for magic weapons, you may want that class ability. So its tough to decide when to dip, because monks get cool stuff that you are having to wait on.

[BladeWing81]

Maybe they don't need feats, but dang a monk with Mobile. Mmm... Never again have to waste ki on bonus disengage. Instead use it for flurry of blows and disengage for free. You just upped your damage output. And stacks so nicely with a monk's extra speed and running on walls and and dashing across difficult terrain at full speed. If you want a character who can really blaze around the battlefield, this is the way to go.

This is a great Idea! I forgot this feat existed I was thinking more on either alert, skilled or skulker.



I'm not ruling out a one level dip for the extra d6 per turn that monks will get in a lot of cases, especially as a shadow monk who can teleport in and get adv. The extra skill and expertise will help buffer the pain of the dip. I'm thinking it might happen after 8th and my dex hits 18. I already have thieve's tools so I will replace that with poisoner's kit. My monk is built as a ninja and it all fits well.

I'm also doing shadow monk and Thinking on a 3 level dip for the assassin rogue (sneak attack 2d6, expertise, proficiencies, cunning action, assassination) but Might start until after lvl 11 when I get cloak of shadows and 1d8 Martial arts. end up as a Monk 11/Rogue 3 on character level 14.

[Dalebert]

I'm also doing shadow monk and Thinking on a 3 level dip for the assassin rogue (sneak attack 2d6, expertise, proficiencies, cunning action, assassination) but Might start until after lvl 11 when I get cloak of shadows and 1d8 Martial arts. end up as a Monk 11/Rogue 3 on character level 14.

If I were considering a dip of more than one level (for rogue), I'd consider dipping two into Warlock for Devil's Sight. Maybe grab temporary hit point options while you're there and of course Hex for an extra d6 damage. Shadow Monks cast Darkness for 2 ki points. Being at advantage while everyone else is at disadvantage can get obscene. For that, half-elf seems the way to go. Get minimum charisma or maybe 14. Ignore eldritch blast and anything that requires attack or a save.

[georgie_leech]

If I were considering a dip of more than one level (for rogue), I'd consider dipping two into Warlock for Devil's Sight. Maybe grab temporary hit point options while you're there and of course Hex for an extra d6 damage. Shadow Monks cast Darkness for 2 ki points. Being at advantage while everyone else is at disadvantage can get obscene. For that, half-elf seems the way to go. Get minimum charisma or maybe 14. Ignore eldritch blast and anything that requires attack or a save.

Bear in mind that it can mess with your allies as well as enemies. Careful where you fling your darkness around.

[Dalebert]

Bear in mind that it can mess with your allies as well as enemies. Careful where you fling your darkness around.

Yep. It can be a tedious thing to use well for that reason. I opted to not go that route and instead focused on moving around the battlefield well, hence a wood elf and maybe one level of rogue to get athletics and then expertise in acrobatics and athletics.

[L Space]

Bear in mind that it can mess with your allies as well as enemies. Careful where you fling your darkness around.
I had someone in my group who did the Shadow Monk/Warlock combo and would constantly cast darkness on everyone. He justified it by saying that since the enemies were at disadvantage to it evened it out. He stopped doing it after the Barbarian mentioned that he would just start rage attacking who ever was closest and he couldn't be blamed if the squishy monk got smacked.:smallbiggrin:


I'm not ruling out a one level dip for the extra d6 per turn that monks will get in a lot of cases, especially as a shadow monk who can teleport in and get adv. The extra skill and expertise will help buffer the pain of the dip. I'm thinking it might happen after 8th and my dex hits 18. I already have thieve's tools so I will replace that with poisoner's kit. My monk is built as a ninja and it all fits well.
I wonder how much of dip into Rogue is viable? The recent thread about the great mobility of the Thief archetype's Second Story Work, makes me think a Monk/Thief could be really fun. Unless there's some redundancy with class features that messes this up.

[georgie_leech]

I wonder how much of dip into Rogue is viable? The recent thread about the great mobility of the Thief archetype's Second Story Work, makes me think a Monk/Thief could be really fun. Unless there's some redundancy with class features that messes this up.

The big overlap is with Cunning Action and some of the Ki uses, but that means you can conserve Ki for offensive purposes instead. So less overlap of abilities and more getting to use abilities more often. Also note that the better climb that Thieves get can get obsoleted at higher levels, when Monk's get the ability to run up walls instead of needing to climb (except for much higher cliffs).

[L Space]

The big overlap is with Cunning Action and some of the Ki uses, but that means you can conserve Ki for offensive purposes instead. So less overlap of abilities and more getting to use abilities more often. Also note that the better climb that Thieves get can get obsoleted at higher levels, when Monk's get the ability to run up walls instead of needing to climb (except for much higher cliffs).
Ok, I thought that the Monk got some sort of wall-run ability, but wasn't 100% sure and couldn't remember at what level.

[georgie_leech]

Ok, I thought that the Monk got some sort of wall-run ability, but wasn't 100% sure and couldn't remember at what level.

Strictly speaking I think the idea was a Matrix-style Wall run across gaps, but nothing says you can't use it to Prince of Persia up walls instead :smalltongue:

[L Space]

Strictly speaking I think the idea was a Matrix-style Wall run across gaps, but nothing says you can't use it to Prince of Persia up walls instead :smalltongue:
Which seems to almost be a requirement when playing a monk character. I'm pretty sure every time someone in my group has made a monk (myself included), they always seem to find an excuse to run across/up a wall, even if absolutely unnecessary :smallbiggrin:.

[Monkplayer]

It seems my points have already been exhausted so they will be brief;
5e has better balanced the monks unarmed damaged with other classes
Most classes will do more damage than a monk unless the monk is specifically built for doing damage at the cost of many other ability options, when compared to other classes standard build.

[BladeWing81]

Ok, I thought that the Monk got some sort of wall-run ability, but wasn't 100% sure and couldn't remember at what level.

you can run up walls and on liquids on level 9.

[Dalebert]

Strictly speaking I think the idea was a Matrix-style Wall run across gaps, but nothing says you can't use it to Prince of Persia up walls instead :smalltongue:

That's exactly how I pictured it--literally running on vertical surfaces. That's what the ability says you can do so yep. At 9th level, my monk will have a move of 60 (being a wood elf with mobile) so with Step of the Wind, I'll be able to run up a 180 ft cliff in one turn. I'll be so frustrated if the opportunity doesn't present itself at some point.

Standing at the bottom and looking up--
"That's going to be a Hell of a climb!"

My monk throws several coils of rope over his shoulder and ZOOM! Next round, a rope drops down. Sure, a wizard can accomplish the same at 3rd level with Spider Climb but not as dramatically!