Witch hunter- underpowered?

[ThirdProgenitor]

I was wondering what the general consensus on the witch hunter class was for expanded 5e. As far as I can tell, the class seems pretty underpowered and not really worth taking, though cool thematically and in concept.
What are your thoughts

[Kane0]

Link?

Linkylink

[ThirdProgenitor]

http://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Witch-Hunter-Class-FINAL-4.2.pdf

[ThirdProgenitor]

Sorry, wasn't sure how new or obscure this is.... To be fair, I'm not even sure if this is open content or homebrew.

[Malifice]

Sorry, wasn't sure how new or obscure this is.... To be fair, I'm not even sure if this is open content or homebrew.

Is there a difference?

[Kane0]

Agreed. Lots of flavor, mechanically lacklustre.
Definitely homebrew too.

[Kryx]

I tested the DPR. As GWM is slightly better than a GWM Paladin who uses 85% of his spells on smite.
I tested all archetype. Ghosthunters have cleansing rite and supernal riposte. Profane soul has diabolic channel (for vampiric touch). Mutants have cruelty.

I love the flavor and the balance is quite good from just testing 1 archetype.

[JellyPooga]

The mechanics looks a little hamfisted in places, but on the whole ok I guess. Certainly playable.

What bugs me about it is the flavour.

It's supposed to be a Witch Hunter, right? A Class specialising in hunting witches you'd think, no? Then why does it focus on killing Undead, Fiends and Fey?

I can dig the whole "using the tools of the enemy" thing, but I think it should have had more focus on finding and ganking spellcasters.

Where's its Resistance to spell damage? Advantage on Spell Saves? Expertise in Insight, Investigation, Religion and Arcana? Anything that directly counters magic?

Instead, it's got some blood magic ritual that acts like the Elemental Weapon spell, and three Orders that don't have much to do with witch hunting; you've got the Ghostbusters (Who you gonna call?), Warlock-lite (how does the fluff of this make any sense?) and Crowbarred-Alchemist (seriously, this is just a really hamfisted kludge to get the Alchemist from Pathfinder into 5ed. I'm seeing little fluff justification for this one).

If I really wanted to play a Witch Hunter in 5ed, I'd probably go Paladin/Rogue, maybe a dash of Warlock for the whole "tools of the enemy" thing (or maybe I'd just use Arcane Trickster) and be good at hunting witches.

[Malifice]

Must say I like the warlock half caster mechanics.

A lot.

[Longcat]

I think the class is really awesome. I'm a sucker for the Diablo III Demon Hunter and the Witcher series.

Shame my group is so anti-homebrew, or else I would play it.

[Citan]

Hi, thanks for the link.

It's definitely homebrew (even if the presentation is great).

Also a lot of interesting ideas in there. I may lack hindsight in how would fare the mechanics of the class of actual combat, but I don't find it so lackluster, although a few tweaks may prove necessary in the long run.

One subclass inflicts bonus 1d12+5 damage on each weapon attack and gets riposte as a standard, as well as life-draining abilities, seems good to me (especially since it can stack with any build and most weapon-buffing spell). It's just similar to the Champion, not many different abilities to play with.
Very powerful to dip into in any martial build.

The second one may be the greatest on paper, since its core ability allows you to "sure-land" a spell if you hit with a weapon attack (I'm not sure how to resolve this with saving throws spells, do we consider it's failed?). Seems extremely good to me in theory because it basically gives you a way to use your best spell even if your Wisdom is not great. Problem is, this ability is too great for the rest of the archetype, considering how few good debuff/attack spells the Warlock has at low levels. Basically Hex is the best choice overall. And this archetype really suffers in spell slot. It may be better with Sorcerer spell-list and EK progression...

The last one brings variety thanks to a large choice of chemical compounds, but is immediately hampered by the 1/long rest limit.
Meaning you don't really profit from all the choice. I love the idea but indeed the implementation of this one is lacklusting. You could maybe make it 1/short rest. Considering how heavy are the side effects for most of them, it should be good.

In short, it may be a bit less powerful than other classes but should be playable overall imo. :)

[Stray]

The mechanics looks a little hamfisted in places, but on the whole ok I guess. Certainly playable.

What bugs me about it is the flavour.

It's supposed to be a Witch Hunter, right? A Class specialising in hunting witches you'd think, no? Then why does it focus on killing Undead, Fiends and Fey?

I can dig the whole "using the tools of the enemy" thing, but I think it should have had more focus on finding and ganking spellcasters.

Where's its Resistance to spell damage? Advantage on Spell Saves? Expertise in Insight, Investigation, Religion and Arcana? Anything that directly counters magic?

Instead, it's got some blood magic ritual that acts like the Elemental Weapon spell, and three Orders that don't have much to do with witch hunting; you've got the Ghostbusters (Who you gonna call?), Warlock-lite (how does the fluff of this make any sense?) and Crowbarred-Alchemist (seriously, this is just a really hamfisted kludge to get the Alchemist from Pathfinder into 5ed. I'm seeing little fluff justification for this one).

If I really wanted to play a Witch Hunter in 5ed, I'd probably go Paladin/Rogue, maybe a dash of Warlock for the whole "tools of the enemy" thing (or maybe I'd just use Arcane Trickster) and be good at hunting witches.

This class was designed for a D&D session with Vin Diesel as cross-promotion/publicity stunt for his upcoming movie about some immortal Witch Hunter, so flavour is mostly from that. Still isn't as bad as calling all martial-artist Monks.

[JellyPooga]

This class was designed for a D&D session with Vin Diesel as cross-promotion/publicity stunt for his upcoming movie about some immortal Witch Hunter, so flavour is mostly from that. Still isn't as bad as calling all martial-artist Monks.

Ah, I did wonder where the unaging thing came from. Makes sense now; it's not an actual Witch Hunter class, it's a "Last Witch Hunter" Class. Wouldn't mind seeing that film, by-the-by[/musing]

[Strill]

It's got a lot of issues. For example, choosing the damage type for your Blood Rites is mostly inconsequential, especially since Force damage at level 13 trumps all the other options and renders them obsolete.


No level 11 damage boost
Rune of Binding is terrible. Save every turn, only restrains, which still lets enemies attack you, targets the better of two saves, and the save DC is based on a tertiary stat. Oh and it also has limited uses. It's bad in pretty much every way. It should at least require an action to make a strength check to break free from, a la the Web spell.
Blood Rite is not tactical at all. It's just saying your hit dice is d6, and you deal 1d4 extra damage. There's not really any decision as to whether you should use it.
Enduring Form is a ribbon. It should be accompanied by a mechanically significant bonus as well
Sanguine Mastery is a very weak capstone
Mutant potions vary wildly in power. For example, there's one that gives a bonus to initiative checks, but gives a level of exhaustion, which gives disadvantage to initiative checks...
Dark Velocity needs to be moved to a different level, or accompanied by some other bonus. 11 is when you should be getting a major damage boost.
Hardened Soul is ok, but but weak compared to the Paladin, which is a general theme with this class.


The whole class strikes me as mechanically comparable to the Paladin, but worse in most every way.


Crowbarred-Alchemist (seriously, this is just a really hamfisted kludge to get the Alchemist from Pathfinder into 5ed. I'm seeing little fluff justification for this one).

The alchemist is there as a reference to the Witcher games.

[Kryx]

No level 11 damage boost
Blood rite scales and several of the archetypes have extra attack features - see what I wrote above. The damage is totally fine - better than Paladin smiting.


Rune of Binding is terrible. Save every turn, only restrains, which still lets enemies attack you, targets the better of two saves, and the save DC is based on a tertiary stat. Oh and it also has limited uses. It's bad in pretty much every way. It should at least require an action to make a strength check to break free from, a la the Web spell.
It's not terrible. Having only 1 save would be better, but save every round is the standard for most CC spells. Though I could see it following web's system to break


Blood Rite is not tactical at all. It's just saying your hit dice is d6, and you deal 1d4 extra damage. There's not really any decision as to whether you should use it.
Agreed, not a tactical choice - it should always be used.


Enduring Form is a ribbon. It should be accompanied by a mechanically significant bonus as well
Sanguine Mastery is a very weak capstone
Agreed on these, but maybe provide some suggestions?


Mutant potions vary wildly in power. For example, there's one that gives a bonus to initiative checks, but gives a level of exhaustion, which gives disadvantage to initiative checks...
Definitely could use some balance between the options


Dark Velocity needs to be moved to a different level, or accompanied by some other bonus. 11 is when you should be getting a major damage boost.
As mentioned above damage is already covered via blood rite scaling and the features of the archetypes.




Mercer is very receptive on twitter - I'll send him some of these, but maybe provide better options for Enduring form and Sanguine mastery.
EDIT: Sent http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snmidv

[Strill]

It's not terrible. Having only 1 save would be better, but save every round is the standard for most CC spells. Though I could see it following web's system to breakIt's significantly worse than just grappling. However, I can see that it being a bonus action makes a big difference. Even so, having the ability be weak and unreliable, but free to throw around as you please doesn't really strike me as how an ability like this should work.


Agreed on these, but maybe provide some suggestions?Frankly, capstones can be whatever you want. Wizards can't seem to decide how powerful capstones should be, so you could put just about anything there and it'd be fine.

[Joe the Rat]

The mechanics looks a little hamfisted in places, but on the whole ok I guess. Certainly playable.

What bugs me about it is the flavour.

It's supposed to be a Witch Hunter, right? A Class specialising in hunting witches you'd think, no? Then why does it focus on killing Undead, Fiends and Fey?While the class name is a bit of a misnomer (and the inevitable cross-promotion tie-in), I do see a couple of rationales:

1) This class deals quite well with mooks summoned / used by evil spellcasters (everything but elementals), and effectively targets 2 out of 3 Warlock Patrons.

2) Fey and Fiend cover the creature types for Hags, which are as "Witchy" as you get in terms of nonhuman monsters.


It is a little rough on mechanics, but you get a specialized ranger chassis that can sacrifice life force for a smite/expertise dice damage combo, with options for being super tough, partial warlock caster (Which is a pretty cool concept and mechanic), or have on-demand Invocations (with side effects). Most of the anti-caster aspects comes from resisting effects, the better to beat the ever-loving hell out of them. That said, Mage Slayer would still give an add-on if you want to be anti-caster vs. anti-supernatural.

I'm tempted to pull some of the flavor parts out, and look at this as the chassis for Yet Another Ranger Rebuild.

[Kryx]

It's significantly worse than just grappling. However, I can see that it being a bonus action makes a big difference. Even so, having the ability be weak and unreliable, but free to throw around as you please doesn't really strike me as how an ability like this should work.
Well grapple is grapple, not restrained, and takes an action or attack as part of an action.

Bonus action is quite good. The fix I outlined to him would be to have it strength save only and not save when taking damage.

[Citan]

I tested the DPR. As GWM is slightly better than a GWM Paladin who uses 85% of his spells on smite.
I tested all archetype. Ghosthunters have cleansing rite and supernal riposte. Profane soul has diabolic channel (for vampiric touch). Mutants have cruelty.

I love the flavor and the balance is quite good from just testing 1 archetype.
Hey :)

Could you please detail how this class (with I suppose the archetype providing bonus WIS modifier damage?) can best Paladin (supposing both are optimized in stats)?

If you take GWM as a basis and put aside chance to hit, both Paladin and WH have 2 attacks for the Attack action.
- Paladin lvl20 would deal bonus 1d8+10 on each hit.
- WHunter lvl 20 would deal bonus 1d12+5+10 on each hit.
So far I follow.

But, when you add Paladin capabilities, it should change things considerably.
Oath of Devotion brings +5 to hit, totally offsetting GWM malus, so upping damage total considerably.
Oath of Vengeance brings Haste as a "constant" upgrade in damage against any enemy with an extra attack, not even talking about Vengeance Oath which also offset malus to hit.
Oathbreaker brings +CHA to damage, considerably reducing the gap with WH on basic damage.

And, to that, you can add Paladin spells to buff either to hit (Bless), damage (Divine Favor) or both (Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon) for concentration slots, and spells such as Command to get an edge on attacks (Grovel > Prone > advantage).

So if you consider a Paladin using spells to maintain a good sustained damage instead of novaing, like using Divine Favor (or Haste for Vengeance) each encounter, for the sake of comparing average damage for several encounters, you should get something very close or better than Witch Hunter... No?

[Kryx]

To be fair to Paladin I don't take into account his archetypes - just core class. Though that's a bit unfair as you've pointed out as I do take into account archetypes elsewhere. Ugh, so many things to compare!
You're right that I need to take into account a Paladin's Archetypes. The main benefit of the archetype are 1/short rest which means 3 times per day, lasting 5 rounds. 15/25 is about 66% of the time.

That doesn't really change the balance for Witch Hunter though - it's in the normal range for secondary melee role.


put aside chance to hit
Ignoring to hit is not a good place to start. -5/+10 is such a huge factor of DPR.

For Paladin I assume he uses 85% of his spells on directly smiting. This in my eyes assumes he's nova'ing a fair amount. If you think there is a mathematical reason to focus on a different spell I can change his DPR numbers.
But I don't want to focus on perfecting average damage - I'd rather estimate the typical.

[Citan]

To be fair to Paladin I don't take into account his archetypes - just core class. Though that's a bit unfair as you've pointed out as I do take into account archetypes elsewhere. Ugh, so many things to compare!
You're right that I need to take into account a Paladin's Archetypes. The main benefit of the archetype are 1/short rest which means 3 times per day, lasting 5 rounds. 15/25 is about 66% of the time.

That doesn't really change the balance for Witch Hunter though - it's in the normal range for secondary melee role.


Ignoring to hit is not a good place to start. -5/+10 is such a huge factor of DPR.

For Paladin I assume he uses 85% of his spells on directly smiting. This in my eyes assumes he's nova'ing a fair amount. If you think there is a mathematical reason to focus on a different spell I can change his DPR numbers.
But I don't want to focus on perfecting average damage - I'd rather estimate the typical.

Mate... :smallmad:
You should read full posts before replying. I was putting chance to hit aside temporarily, just to state the difference between each classes's bonus damage on a hit "in ideal world".

I addressed the impact of chance to hit just after when exposing the benefits of each archetype (it was the main point of my post even).

Also, it's unfair to account Oath benefits for 5 rounds each. Sure, most encounters don't last much more. But technically the Oaths last 10 rounds, without any risk of disruption. So you should count them as such.

Finally, I see why you want to consider the Paladin as novaing since it's its usual role, but I think it's fair to consider that for at least each encounter he'll maintain either Bless or Divine Favor (except Vengeance who will obviously maintain either Hunter's Mark or Haste). Let's say it uses only his four 1st level spell slots on either one.

Intuitively, I'd say the WH is probably significantly better than Ancients Paladin, a bit better or similar to Devotion (+5 to hit) and Oathbreaker (+5 to damage) and clearly behind Vengeance (extra attack, even more distance if you consider advantage against a single enemy).

[Kryx]

You should read full posts before replying.
I addressed the impact of chance to hit just after when exposing the benefits of each archetype (it was the main point of my post even).
I read the whole thing. The issue we're discussing now isn't even relevant to the topic, but ignoring chance to hit is entirely worthless in terms of calculating damage as -5/+10 is very important to DPR. You did address it, via words but your reasonings are based on the math which is base damage which leaves out so much.


Also, it's unfair to account Oath benefits for 5 rounds each. Sure, most encounters don't last much more. But technically the Oaths last 10 rounds, without any risk of disruption. So you should count them as such.
You have a point that it shouldn't be the average, but it shouldn't be the maximum either. It's going to be used on larger fights on average. No fights last 10 rounds anyways expect crazy extreme which we don't care about. Basing it on Hard (6 rounds) is the best imo.


Finally, I see why you want to consider the Paladin as novaing since it's its usual role, but I think it's fair to consider that for at least each encounter he'll maintain either Bless or Divine Favor (except Vengeance who will obviously maintain either Hunter's Mark or Haste). Let's say it uses only his four 1st level spell slots on either one.
We can assume bless as it's the best choice, but doing so isn't straight forward - we'd have to estimate the average duration based on him being frontline. Which scales quite horribly as the monsters do more and more damage and the paladin has the same Con save (probably +2).

[ThirdProgenitor]

It's got a lot of issues. For example, choosing the damage type for your Blood Rites is mostly inconsequential, especially since Force damage at level 13 trumps all the other options and renders them obsolete.


No level 11 damage boost
Rune of Binding is terrible. Save every turn, only restrains, which still lets enemies attack you, targets the better of two saves, and the save DC is based on a tertiary stat. Oh and it also has limited uses. It's bad in pretty much every way. It should at least require an action to make a strength check to break free from, a la the Web spell.
Blood Rite is not tactical at all. It's just saying your hit dice is d6, and you deal 1d4 extra damage. There's not really any decision as to whether you should use it.
Enduring Form is a ribbon. It should be accompanied by a mechanically significant bonus as well
Sanguine Mastery is a very weak capstone
Mutant potions vary wildly in power. For example, there's one that gives a bonus to initiative checks, but gives a level of exhaustion, which gives disadvantage to initiative checks...
Dark Velocity needs to be moved to a different level, or accompanied by some other bonus. 11 is when you should be getting a major damage boost.
Hardened Soul is ok, but but weak compared to the Paladin, which is a general theme with this class.


The whole class strikes me as mechanically comparable to the Paladin, but worse in most every way.



The alchemist is there as a reference to the Witcher games.

How would you fix this class?

[ThirdProgenitor]

Hi, thanks for the link.

It's definitely homebrew (even if the presentation is great).

Also a lot of interesting ideas in there. I may lack hindsight in how would fare the mechanics of the class of actual combat, but I don't find it so lackluster, although a few tweaks may prove necessary in the long run.

One subclass inflicts bonus 1d12+5 damage on each weapon attack and gets riposte as a standard, as well as life-draining abilities, seems good to me (especially since it can stack with any build and most weapon-buffing spell). It's just similar to the Champion, not many different abilities to play with.
Very powerful to dip into in any martial build.

The second one may be the greatest on paper, since its core ability allows you to "sure-land" a spell if you hit with a weapon attack (I'm not sure how to resolve this with saving throws spells, do we consider it's failed?). Seems extremely good to me in theory because it basically gives you a way to use your best spell even if your Wisdom is not great. Problem is, this ability is too great for the rest of the archetype, considering how few good debuff/attack spells the Warlock has at low levels. Basically Hex is the best choice overall. And this archetype really suffers in spell slot. It may be better with Sorcerer spell-list and EK progression...

The last one brings variety thanks to a large choice of chemical compounds, but is immediately hampered by the 1/long rest limit.
Meaning you don't really profit from all the choice. I love the idea but indeed the implementation of this one is lacklusting. You could maybe make it 1/short rest. Considering how heavy are the side effects for most of them, it should be good.

In short, it may be a bit less powerful than other classes but should be playable overall imo. :)

How would you optimize this?

[CNagy]

I'm really digging this class. Some thoughts (likely repeating others above) :

Witch Hunter

Blood Rite: Holy crap, Blood Rite! A +1 to hit and 1d4-1d12 damage that *stacks* with any other enchantments. At the very least, it makes your non-magical blade magical and provides a nice damage boost. Land something nice in the loot and it is a major upgrade; +4 weapons? Entirely possible.

Rune of Binding: A Strength save would be good. A Dexterity save would be good. A Strength or Dexterity save is painful, since most threats have one or the other... but if what it has is a good Dex save, then this ability is somewhat better as the Restrained condition inflicts disadvantage on Dex saves. So it's pretty chancy, but as a level 6 ability that can lock down a fairly significant opponent at a distance at the cost of a bonus action, I'm okay with it being chancy.

Dark Velocity: It seems rather tame at first for an 11th level ability, but it synergizes with some other abilities and, as noted by Kryx, the Witch Hunter gets his damage boost early on and spread out across his levels.

Hardened Soul: Decent enough and in keeping with the theme. Immunity to Frightened is a big plus. Charm is less of a concern and so advantage against charm isn't super exciting but still nice.

Enduring Form: Yeah, it's kind of late in the class progression for a ribbon ability, and having it at 17th makes the class ripe for a 4 level dip in something else (the level 20 capstone is decent, the level 18 archetype abilities are good, but the case can be made for the versatility one gains from 2-4 levels of another class.) That said, I don't think it should have a mechanical benefit as well; sometimes classes have ribbons, sometimes archetypes have ribbons, it's an accepted element of class design.

Sanguine Mastery: A decent capstone; not the worst. Blood Rite should always be up anyway, so turning its downside into damage that you can heal is certainly a positive. I'd probably come down on this capstone harder if the other abilities and archetypes weren't so awesome.

Order of the Ghost Slayer

Cleansing Rite: Awesome damage boost, rite at the word go. It only triggers when you deal elemental damage with your Rite, immunity to a given element gets around it but that's mostly only a problem for Fire. Once you're rocking Force damage, it'll hardly ever come up.

Stubborn Vitality: A very niche ability, but if you're actually hunting ghosts and their ilk it is something that is bound to be useful.

Hallowed Rune: Hahaha! Yer a Ghostbuster, Harry! Ghosts have pretty crappy Str and Dex saves, so you're going to lock one in place for a long time. The problem with that is that you get this ability at 10th level, and the Ghost is a CR4. In my brief glance through my MM, I didn't find anything suitable to target with this ability, though I did end up looking at a lot of Str and Dex saves (that Binding Rune is actually a lot more useful than it seemed at first.)

Gravesight: Finally! A 3rd way to see through magical darkness. And it only takes 15 levels in an admittedly awesome class. See in the (magic) dark, see invisible, see ethereal. I see everything...

Supernal Riposte: Baiting the OA to get another attack on your turn. Well, considering how much damage you can do with a single attack (weapon dice + ability mod + blood rite + wis mod + GWM?) it's certainly worth it. They have to miss, however, but you've got Dark Velocity so they've got Disadvantage (which makes it safe to bait Rogue-types into attacking, as well.)

Voracious Strike: A nice way to heal. The Witch Hunter class features rely on Wisdom heavily enough that you're going to want a 20 in Wisdom, so 5 times per long rest you can attempt to heal half of the really quite decent amount of damage you do on a hit. Having to declare it beforehand introduces some risk and overall the healing is limited, but you get to tack it on for free as an effect, multiple times in a turn if the situation calls for it (as many as you have attacks.)




Order of the Profane Soul

Pact Magic: Very cool, this 1/3 Warlock progression. Wisdom-based, it slots right into the Witch Hunter class to add a dash of magic that compliments the martial nature of the base class. As for the Order features...

Lethal Focus: Useful, necessary, makes the class far less annoying than it would be without it, but doesn't give much else.

Mystic Frenzy: Hey, it's the Eldritch Knight! Now you can do that whole Eldritch Blast + attack combo without needing a multiclass. Take it up to level 18 and you ever get to add your Wisdom modifier to each hit.

Diabolic Channel: Trade a save for an attack roll; the ability says the creature suffers the effects of the spell if hit. Normally, creatures are subject to the effects of a spell if they fail the saving thing. Assuming that is how this ability works, this is kind of huge. Sure, a lot of spells with on-going effects allow new saves at the end of the creature's turn (and those would be saving throws it gets to take), but the ability to bypass a save even for one round/part of a round can be profound, especially as it would sidestep Legendary Resistance.

Arcane Impulse: Also pretty nice, given that any enemy attack (melee or ranged, weapon or spell) can trigger it. Once per short or long rest keeps it from being crazy powerful (though you'd need a cantrip other than Eldritch Blast to use it if it were allowed more often.)

Insidious Boon: Good stuff. Crazy good stuff. Does this add you Wisdom modifier in damage every time your Hex triggers on an opponent? It sure seems that way, in addition to turning your Eldritch Blast into the death dealer that normal Warlocks are used to.




Order of the Mutant

Mutagen Craft: Alright, let me just say that this guy really feels like the Champion archetype of the Witch Hunter. On Steroids. Or mutagen, in this case. The other orders are powerful. The Order of the Mutant is just plain nuts. I'm not going to go through all of the formulas; I'm going to go through the only formulas. Let's get the other stuff out of the way first, though.

Robust Physiology: Immunity to poison. Nice. Around where other classes can get it, nothing new to see here.

Strange Metabolism: Ignore the side effects of one mutagen. Once per long rest? Sounds odd, but that's all it needs. You see, even though you can craft new mutagens at each short rest, the mutagen effects themselves last until you take a short rest or a long rest. Take a good long look at the rest of the Order of the Mutant and the base Witch Hunter class and tell me if you see any short rest abilities. No? Guess what--you're never taking another short rest again. You're always on watch, doing jumping jacks, anything to keep you from doing something remotely like resting. And now, the only mutagens you'll ever use past 7th level:

Precision: Crit fishing goes well with Blood Rite. The downside would be a bit painful were it not for...
Reconstruction: Assuming regaining counts as healing, it's still constant regeneration of the type the Champion should have had. If it's not considered healing, that's even better. Lower movement can be a pain, but grabbing the Mobile feat negates that aspect of it.
Cruelty: An additional attack every turn. Disadvantage on all saves is really rough, so this is the side effect we ignore from 15th level onward.

Exalted Fortitude: And have a free Con boost, for good measure.

Now, I haven't run the numbers to say for certain that the Order of the Mutant is the best archetype. It just feels that way and, as we all know, feelings can be wrong when it comes to numbers. But between the base Witch Hunter's class feature bonus to hit and extra damage from Blood Rite, and the Mutant's 18-20 crit range, 10 HP regeneration (constantly active above 0 HP), and guaranteed 3rd attack, it seems like they consistently do a ton of damage before you even factor in DPR boosting feats.

Long story short? I do not see this class as being underpowered at all. It feels like a contender.

[Strill]

That said, I don't think it should have a mechanical benefit as well; sometimes classes have ribbons, sometimes archetypes have ribbons, it's an accepted element of class design.That's not true. Without fail, every ribbon is accompanied by an ability with a mechanical benefit of some kind, at the same level.

[Theodoxus]

The last one brings variety thanks to a large choice of chemical compounds, but is immediately hampered by the 1/long rest limit.

You can create a Mutagen every short rest. They last until you take a rest. That's actually really good. And eventually, you get 2, and ultimately 3 to use, each short rest. You can ignore the side effects of 1 of them, 1/long - which is still pretty good.

[CNagy]

That's not true. Without fail, every ribbon is accompanied by an ability with a mechanical benefit of some kind, at the same level.

Timeless Body. Not only is it not accompanied by a mechanical benefit of the same kind, it is functionally the same ability as the ribbon in question.

[Bladeyeoman]

A few points:
RAW suggests that diabolical channel doesn't actually USE a spell slot. You just imbue a weapon with a spell you can cast. So that's potentially five spells for damage on top of your 1-3 normal spells.

The mutagens. Man. So starting at level 3 + whatever it takes to hit 17 in con and 18 in str (or con and dex), you can be at 22 strength (or dex). ALL THE TIME. When you hit level 18, you can get up to 24.

[Person_Man]

To me, it seems like the class is poorly paced and way way overly complicated.

I would make the abilities more universal and simply written against all magic users.

Examples:

1: Magic Hunter: You gain Advantage on any Wisdom and Intelligence check made against or regarding any creature that uses spells or any magical ability. (More universally applicable/useful, and Advantage to Perception is a big deal in the setup to combat).

2: Blood Right: Your max hit points are reduced by an amount = your Witch Hunter class level, weapon gains a bonus to a bonus to damage equal to 1/2 that amount + 1, attacks from the weapon are considered magical, and you may determine the damage type of the bonus damage (Fire, Cold, Necrotic, etc). (Simple formula, more flexible damage types without needs for additional "Rites", no need for extra charts).

3: Subclass abilities: I don't have time to go through them all right now, but I would take out the abilities that add extra damage and numerical bonuses. (Thus the higher Blood Right damage at mid-high levels in my formula). Layering damage effects just makes the expected damage per round (DPR) pointlessly confusing.

And so on.

[Kryx]

It was purposefully changed to character level instead of class level to avoid the dip. The method provided is not simple - far more complex with small numbers which 5e doesn't do.

[Bladeyeoman]

A few points:
The mutagens. Man. So starting at level 3 + whatever it takes to hit 17 in con and 18 in str (or con and dex), you can be at 22 strength (or dex). ALL THE TIME. When you hit level 18, you can get up to 24.

Apparently I can't math.

So at any level after 3, you can have your dex or str = (current score + con bonus). ALL THE TIME. So as soon as you manage base dex/str score to 20 and con to 18, you're at 24 dex or str. All the time. Half of the Barb capstone at whatever level that is (my table hasn't been using point buy - when you can achieve str 20 con 18 may vary).



To me, it seems like the class is poorly paced and way way overly complicated.

I would make the abilities more universal and simply written against all magic users.

...
2: Blood Right: Your max hit points are reduced by an amount = your Witch Hunter class level, weapon gains a bonus to a bonus to damage equal to 1/2 that amount + 1, attacks from the weapon are considered magical, and you may determine the damage type of the bonus damage (Fire, Cold, Necrotic, etc). (Simple formula, more flexible damage types without needs for additional "Rites", no need for extra charts).

3: Subclass abilities: I don't have time to go through them all right now, but I would take out the abilities that add extra damage and numerical bonuses. (Thus the higher Blood Right damage at mid-high levels in my formula). Layering damage effects just makes the expected damage per round (DPR) pointlessly confusing.

And so on.

Couple of points. First, the reason for the specifics is that this is based pretty closely on the Witcher franchise; for players who don't want that strong thematic tie, definitely no need to the specifics.

Second, I don't think "making it easy to calculate expected DPR" is a great reason to remove features or lump them together. Further, the bonuses are different for the different archetypes, and removing them make the archetypes more similar. And while you may feel the same way about some of the base classes in 5e, there are plenty of base classes that start adding in different circumstantial numerical advantages based on archetype (rangers and clerics off the top of my head).

It does seem to complicate things somewhat by restricting the types of elemental damage via limited blood rites. But I think the goal (valuable or not, achieved or not) is that characters choose specific elements that they can use, and that there be a cost to changing even between elements they have access to. I'm still pretty new to this edition, but I assume that different monsters are vulnerable to different elements. So force may not always be the optimal element to run.

An additional point on the "reduced max hp" part of the blood rite - this is a cost that players pay for every weapon and (RAW I think) for every time they want to change elemental damage. Which means that removing that part and simply having the witcher's health always be reduced does change the mechanics somewhat, rather than just simplifying them.

[Person_Man]

I don't think "making it easy to calculate expected DPR" is a great reason to remove features or lump them together.

I'm not quite sure I understand your argument. So let me elaborate on mine, and then if anyone feels like it they can tell me why I'm wrong.

I would argue that when it comes to pure math (to-hit, AC, damage, Saves, etc) simple is better than complex, because it makes the rules easier to understand and abilities/spells/Feats/etc easier to compare and balance.

Lets say you're a new player, and I'm your DM. (I've been playing D&D for 25+ years, and have been playing 5E since the playtest stage). After I give you a 10 minute overview of the rules, you decide that you want to play the class with the highest reliable damage output. You just want to hit stuff, and be the best at it. Which class should I suggest to you? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. Even after consulting elaborate charts on the forums. I don't know because abilities/spells/Feats/etc are broken up in such a granular fashion that the answer to basically everything is "it depends." And if you write a new ability that grants some sort of numerical benefit, it's very difficult for me to say whether its worth the trade-off of not gaining some other ability/Feat/spell/etc at the same level, because the math is fuzzy when you add it to all the other potential benefits.

This pointless complexity of math is also the root cause of codex creep, party imbalance, and various other issues.

More importantly, I would argue that you don't need a complex game mechanic in order to simulate the fluff of the Witcher or anything else. You can write a simple/intuitive mechanic, and than add fluff or separate Ribbon abilities/mechanics as needed. Compare 3.5 Sneak Attack (with the complicated Precision Damage rules) to the superior 5E Sneak Attack.

[Osrogue]

Mutagens are the best ingestible poisons.

[comk59]

I don't know why, but while the mechanics of this class seem solid (if a bit over complicated), there's something about it that just feels.... not right. Like, I would be uncomfortable playing this class. Maybe because it feels kinda artificial? Idunno, I don't really have a good reason for it.

[Theodoxus]

Mutagens are the best ingestible poisons.

I thought the same thing - although I bet the intention is more like that feeling you get when you watch the opening sequence of a video game. I remember watching Metal Gear Solid at a friends house and was in awe at how awesome the character was, sneaking around, murdering folk, being a typical billy badass - and then, the game pans in as the player takes over, and he's more like a drunken hillbilly dumbass.

"The mutagens are fatal to anyone who ingests them."
What the player thinks: Yes! all I need to do is pour some into Mr Barfly McJerkface's drink and he's dead!
What the DM thinks: Hmm.. it doesn't say how quickly this fatality needs to be... I think I'll make it take a few months... yes, he'll definitely die, but he can still be a major nuisance - heck, the players will probably kill him before the mutagen. "Mr Barfly McJerface downs his drink, doesn't appear any worse for doing so, and proceeds to walk out, stiffing the bartender of a tip."

[Osrogue]

I thought the same thing - although I bet the intention is more like that feeling you get when you watch the opening sequence of a video game. I remember watching Metal Gear Solid at a friends house and was in awe at how awesome the character was, sneaking around, murdering folk, being a typical billy badass - and then, the game pans in as the player takes over, and he's more like a drunken hillbilly dumbass.

"The mutagens are fatal to anyone who ingests them."
What the player thinks: Yes! all I need to do is pour some into Mr Barfly McJerkface's drink and he's dead!
What the DM thinks: Hmm.. it doesn't say how quickly this fatality needs to be... I think I'll make it take a few months... yes, he'll definitely die, but he can still be a major nuisance - heck, the players will probably kill him before the mutagen. "Mr Barfly McJerface downs his drink, doesn't appear any worse for doing so, and proceeds to walk out, stiffing the bartender of a tip."

They lose potency too quickly. For the mutagens to lose potency after a long rest, and for it to be fatal to anyone who ingests them, it is necessary for it to act within that timeframe. The amount of time the DM can stretch out the period the mutagen doesn't take effect is limited to 24 hours without contradicting the Homebrew.

The DM can totally do that, but following the class as written, they can't.

[Theodoxus]

Mayhaps (or, as I prefer to say "that's like, your opinion, man"). I don't relish dipping science in general into my D&D - my table has a running joke about not discussing physics and D&D - but in this instance, I will.

What if the mutagen alters the DNA of the imbiber. The caster's DNA is being only slightly modified, as it's based on his own. However, a foreign imbiber would have a completely different set of DNA. If the mutagen alters it, it wouldn't necessarily be quick; a viral change to your DNA might only result in something akin to HIV. Without drug intervention, you'll die. Likewise, a mutagen might disrupt protein synthesis - something that could takes weeks or months to fully develop into a problem. Weakened cardiovascular system... 5th strength check, you have a coronary event.

It'd be fun to even come up with different ways you die depending on the mutagen imbibed... some have faster onset, some slower... maybe even an instant one (though that gets back to your original point of it being particularly OP).

[ThirdProgenitor]

Mutagens are the best ingestible poisons.

I agree, considering they are lethal to anyone but you. Especially because there's nothing that i saw stating that the mutagens have color, taste or smell it could be a viable method of assassination.

[Bystander]

Sorry, wasn't sure how new or obscure this is.... To be fair, I'm not even sure if this is open content or homebrew.
Homebrew by voice actor Matthew Mercer for the Geek & Sundry/Nerdist promo DnDiesel game.

Is Critical Role not a known thing on these forums?

[Kane0]

Homebrew by voice actor Matthew Mercer for the Geek & Sundry/Nerdist promo DnDiesel game.

Is Critical Role not a known thing on these forums?

Not even the 5e homebrew on our own forums reaches threads here very often.

[Maxilian]

Am i the only one who thinks that the ability to change your scores with a Mutagen is pretty strong?

[Strill]

Timeless Body. Not only is it not accompanied by a mechanical benefit of the same kind, it is functionally the same ability as the ribbon in question.

I never said a mechanical benefit of the same kind. Just any mechanical benefit. And yes it does have a mechanical benefit. You no longer need to eat or drink.

[ThirdProgenitor]

Am i the only one who thinks that the ability to change your scores with a Mutagen is pretty strong?

It seems really strong, considering you can ignore a mutagens side effects at higher levels

[Nishant]

Am i the only one who thinks that the ability to change your scores with a Mutagen is pretty strong?

I'm fairly certain that they aren't intended to make a abilitiy score increase over 20; especially in a system where that's a Barbarian's capstone and an Ancient red dragon's strength is 30. (A CR 24 creature.) This is a serious RAI deal.

[ThirdProgenitor]

I'm fairly certain that they aren't intended to make a abilitiy score increase over 20; especially in a system where that's a Barbarian's capstone and an Ancient red dragon's strength is 30. (A CR 24 creature.) This is a serious RAI deal.

If you got it, abuse it.
.... Also, I keep seeing terms like RAW and RAI... Explain

[Nishant]

If you got it, abuse it.
.... Also, I keep seeing terms like RAW and RAI... Explain

Raw is rules as written, RaI is rules as intended. Further, as a reminder, The rules clearly state that unless it says so specifically, your stats cannot be raised above 20. That's why there is that claim in the barbarian capstone, Enduring Form, the various attribute tomes, and even the hammer of thunderbolts. This version of the game doesn't really mesh with the 3.5/PF attribute pumping.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm fairly certain that they aren't intended to make a abilitiy score increase over 20;

I'm fairly certain that you're wrong.

[InsertNameHere]:
Your <AbilityScoreNameOne> score increases by 2, as does your <AbilityScoreNameOne> maximum.
Side Effect: Your <AbilityScoreNameTwo> decreases by 2

As does your maximum. As in, your maximum is no longer 20, it is now 22.

[Nishant]

I'm fairly certain that you're wrong.

[InsertNameHere]:
Your <AbilityScoreNameOne> score increases by 2, as does your <AbilityScoreNameOne> maximum.
Side Effect: Your <AbilityScoreNameTwo> decreases by 2

As does your maximum. As in, your maximum is no longer 20, it is now 22.

Ah, I apologize. I was reading the older versions of the class.

[ThirdProgenitor]

Raw is rules as written, RaI is rules as intended. Further, as a reminder, The rules clearly state that unless it says so specifically, your stats cannot be raised above 20. That's why there is that claim in the barbarian capstone, Enduring Form, the various attribute tomes, and even the hammer of thunderbolts. This version of the game doesn't really mesh with the 3.5/PF attribute pumping.

First off, thank you.
Secondly, I'm not particularly happy that I can't ring of three wishes my character into a steroid induced coma....

[Bystander]

Ah, I apologize. I was reading the older versions of the class.
I imagine that unless Vin Diesel finds time to come play more often, Matt Mercer won't have time to playtest and work out the kinks. It took Percy 10 levels of his gunslinger class before he nerfed some of the more egregious attack actions.

[Nishant]

I imagine that unless Vin Diesel finds time to come play more often, Matt Mercer won't have time to playtest and work out the kinks. It took Percy 10 levels of his gunslinger class before he nerfed some of the more egregious attack actions.

And they're still working out kinks as they go. In reality, I actually quite enjoy the mutagens, and the class in general; It even inspired me to make my first 5e Homebrew. And I played a beastform vivisectionist type alchemist in PF. Skinwalker, too. And in that system, it was completely fair and had no real issues. But there is hardly any way you can get away with that in this system fairly. If you know you want to play an Order of Mutant, you're going to choose a race with a good con bonus, and to hell with everything else- You can make up for it, especially if you let the caps go up, as well.

[DivisibleByZero]

Kryx:
Did your calculations use Greenflame Blade or a standard attack?
GFB is purportedly going to be on the Warlock list, so it, in conjunction with their bonus action attack, will increase the Witch Hunter's numbers.
GFB (plus the attack that it offers), plus a second attack <vs> two attacks.

[Osrogue]

Mayhaps (or, as I prefer to say "that's like, your opinion, man"). I don't relish dipping science in general into my D&D - my table has a running joke about not discussing physics and D&D - but in this instance, I will.

What if the mutagen alters the DNA of the imbiber. The caster's DNA is being only slightly modified, as it's based on his own. However, a foreign imbiber would have a completely different set of DNA. If the mutagen alters it, it wouldn't necessarily be quick; a viral change to your DNA might only result in something akin to HIV. Without drug intervention, you'll die. Likewise, a mutagen might disrupt protein synthesis - something that could takes weeks or months to fully develop into a problem. Weakened cardiovascular system... 5th strength check, you have a coronary event.

It'd be fun to even come up with different ways you die depending on the mutagen imbibed... some have faster onset, some slower... maybe even an instant one (though that gets back to your original point of it being particularly OP).

It wasn't science. Just that the description states that they break down rapidly, becoming useless after a day at the most.

I'd like to think that the mutagens kill them in a way that corresponds to their description. If everyone who has some except for you is doomed to die, at least have it be interesting. I'd like to think that the frigid one causes total paralysis.

[Nishant]

Another thing to consider; you're killing one guy with it. You only have so many; and that's IF the target goes. 'Oh, sure I'll drink this strange liquid!' or you sneak in their drink without them noticing.

[Kryx]

Kryx: Did your calculations use Greenflame Blade or a standard attack?
No GFB in my numbers. I was just trying to estimate a baseline, not optimize.

Truthfully if GFB is a problem with Witch Hunter I'd expect it to be a problem with other classes like EK as well.

[Joe the Rat]

I thought the same thing - although I bet the intention is more like that feeling you get when you watch the opening sequence of a video game. I remember watching Metal Gear Solid at a friends house and was in awe at how awesome the character was, sneaking around, murdering folk, being a typical billy badass - and then, the game pans in as the player takes over, and he's more like a drunken hillbilly dumbass.

"The mutagens are fatal to anyone who ingests them."
What the player thinks: Yes! all I need to do is pour some into Mr Barfly McJerkface's drink and he's dead!
What the DM thinks: Hmm.. it doesn't say how quickly this fatality needs to be... I think I'll make it take a few months... yes, he'll definitely die, but he can still be a major nuisance - heck, the players will probably kill him before the mutagen. "Mr Barfly McJerface downs his drink, doesn't appear any worse for doing so, and proceeds to walk out, stiffing the bartender of a tip."

It gimps the fluff of it, but ingesting a mutagen causing the imbiber to become Poisoned would capture the basic flavor (is bad for you) while circumventing most of the abuse potential. Or assign an actual amount of damage dice, something in the neighborhood of "fatal to guards and bandits"... and the Poisoned status.

[MaxWilson]

The mechanics looks a little hamfisted in places, but on the whole ok I guess. Certainly playable.

What bugs me about it is the flavour.

It's supposed to be a Witch Hunter, right? A Class specialising in hunting witches you'd think, no? Then why does it focus on killing Undead, Fiends and Fey?

I can dig the whole "using the tools of the enemy" thing, but I think it should have had more focus on finding and ganking spellcasters.

"At fifth level, you get the Mage Slayer feat for free." Boom, done.

[JellyPooga]

"At fifth level, you get the Mage Slayer feat for free." Boom, done.

Yyyeeeah...doesn't quite do it for me :smallamused: Anyone could take that Feat and call themselves a Witch Hunter by that yardstick :smallwink:

[ThirdProgenitor]

Yyyeeeah...doesn't quite do it for me :smallamused: Anyone could take that Feat and call themselves a Witch Hunter by that yardstick :smallwink:

Maybe if this were 3.5 you'd have a point. But feats in 5e require you to give up a stat boost, which makes it a very significant choice.

[Kane0]

Hey guys,

So a mate of mine expressed a keen interest in playing a Witch Hunter for a possible upconimg game I plan on DMing (he's a big Witcher fan), so I had a closer look and went about tweaking the base pdf. Could I get some opinions?

Hit Dice: d8
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple, Martial
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium
Skill Proficiencies: Athletics, Acrobatics, Arcana, History, Intimidation, Perception
Save Proficiencies: Str, Wis



Level
Prof
Blood Rite
Features


1
2
-
Hunter's Bane, Fighting Style


2
2
1d4
Blood Rite


3
2
1d4
Order


4
2
1d4
ASI


5
3
1d4
Extra Attack


6
3
1d6
Rune of Binding


7
3
1d6
Order Feature


8
3
1d6
ASI


9
4
1d6
Greater Hunter's Bane


10
4
1d8
Order Feature


11
4
1d8
Dark Velocity


12
4
1d8
ASI


13
5
1d8
Esoteric Rite


14
5
1d10
Hardened Soul


15
5
1d10
Order Feature


16
5
1d10
ASI


17
6
1d10
Enduring Form


18
6
1d12
Order Feature


19
6
1d12
ASI


20
6
1d12
Sanguine Mastery



Hunter's Bane: Advantage on Int and Wis checks vs Fiends, Fey, Undead and creatures capable of casting spells
Fighting Style: Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon, Hand-and-a-half (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422749-Martial-Archtype-Kensai), Defense, Mariner
Blood Rite: At the end of a short or extended rest you can spend 1 Hit Die in order to deal extra damage with a selected weapon until your next short rest. This bonus does not apply to more than one weapon per use, nor does it apply to anyone else using that weapon. You can have Blood Rite active on up to 3 weapons at once.
Extra Attack: As normal
Rune of Binding: As a bonus action once per short rest, one target creature within 30' must make a Str saving throw (DC = 8 + Prof + Wis) or be restrained. The creature gets a new saving throw at the end of each of its turns.
Greater Hunter's Bane: Advantage on Int and Wis saving throws vs Fiends, Fey, Undead and creatures capable of casting spells
Dark Velocity: Opportunity attacks against you are made at disadvantage
Esoteric Rite: You roll a second Blood Rite damage die when attacking creatures capable of casting spells
Hardened Soul: Immunity to Frightened condition, add half proficiency bonus to saving throws you are not proficient in.
Enduring Form: No longer age
Sanguine Mastery: Using your Blood Rite requires no Hit Die


Level 3: Your Blood rite adds your Wis modifier as Radiant damage
Level 7: You gain resistance to force damage
Level 10: Your Rune of Binding ignores immunity to the restrained condition
Level 15: You can see through Magical Darkness and Invisibility within 60'.
When an enemy misses an opportunity attack against you, you can use your reaction to make a single melee attack against the creature
Level 18: Once per short rest you can recover half the damage you deal on a hit


Level 3: Pact Magic (Warlock List, casting stat Wis), Can use weapon as focus
Level 7: As EK's War Magic
Level 10: As an action once per short rest you can deliver a spell with a weapon attack (1 action casting time spells only)
Level 15: If an enemy misses you with an attack you can use your reaction to cast a spell (Must target the attacker only, 1 action casting time only)
Level 18: You add your wisdom bonus to the damage rolls of warlock spells



Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Spell Level


3
2
2
1
1st


4
2
2
1
1st


5
2
3
1
1st


6
2
3
1
1st


7
2
4
1
2nd


8
2
4
2
2nd


9
2
5
2
2nd


10
3
5
2
2nd


11
3
6
2
2nd


12
3
6
2
2nd


13
3
7
2
3rd


14
3
7
2
3rd


15
3
8
2
3rd


16
3
8
2
3rd


17
3
9
3
3rd


18
3
10
3
3rd


19
3
10
3
4th


20
3
11
3
4th






Level 3: Formulas (Create one per short rest, bonus action to use, last until your next short rest)
Level 7: Two formulas per short rest
Level 10: Immunity to Poison damage
Level 15: Three forumlas per short rest, ignore side effect of one mutagen per short rest
Level 18: Increase Con score and maximum by 2



Level
Formulas Known


3
3


4
3


5
3


6
3


7
4


8
4


9
4


10
5


11
5


12
5


13
6


14
6


15
7


16
7


17
7


18
7


19
7


20
8



Mutagens
- Resistance to one physical damage type (Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing) and vulnerability to another
- Resistance to fire or cold damage, vulnerability to the other
- Resistance to Radiant, Nectrotic or Psychic, vulnerability to another
- Increase one stat by 2, decrease another by 2
- Darkvision 60', Light sensitivity
- Immunity to Grappled, Restrained and Paralysed conditions, -5 initiative
- Crit on 19-20, receive half HP from healing
- Recover half level HP each turn, decrease speed by half
- +5 to iniative, gain 1 level of exhaustion
- Increase speed by 20', gain 1 level of exhaustion
- Gain Extra Attack (3), -2 AC


TL;DR
- +1 Skill to class list
- Added Fighting Style
- Abilities that were Wis mod/day are now 1/rest
- Buffed Rune of Binding
- Fixed some Mutagens, probably broke some others
- Blood Rite now uses Hit Dice instead of reducing max HP, Damage type Rites replaced
- Now actually acknowledges its name, getting bonuses vs casters

[MrStabby]

I don't think I would allow this one at my table - it looks really powerful.

Take a level of Nature Cleric for heavy armour and shillelagh and a couple of spell slots and you are off to a good start. Max wisdom as priority. Take 5 levels of Witch Hunter to get extra attack - on the way you pick up cleansing rite or the sagacity mutagen... By level 6 you have the basis of a great martial class to add on whatever you fancy

Or take tempest cleric to level 8 and two levels of witch hunter to do lightening damage with an attack to push enemies round the battlefield. Polearm mastery/sentinal will let you keep enemies away from you as long as you want.

Diabolic channel is awesome - potentially lots of extra free spells per day is nice, even with low level spells. If you were, for example to add full caster levels then not only could you be adding on spells like guiding bolt from level 11 but by level 20 you could be using banishing smite like a Paladin (5 times per day not using any spell slots, although using one attack) or banishment

[Kane0]

Diabolic channel is awesome - potentially lots of extra free spells per day is nice, even with low level spells. If you were, for example to add full caster levels then not only could you be adding on spells like guiding bolt from level 11 but by level 20 you could be using banishing smite like a Paladin (5 times per day not using any spell slots, although using one attack) or banishment

Good catch, I'm not sure if that was intended to use a spell slot or not.

[Awesometaco9]

I was wondering what the general consensus on the witch hunter class was for expanded 5e. As far as I can tell, the class seems pretty underpowered and not really worth taking, though cool thematically and in concept.
What are your thoughts

I know that I am kinda late to the party but here is my solution: What me and my group did was that we made the witch hunter order a very rich and powerful organisation. Like sending gold, magical items and expensive tools to compromise for the lack in power. I know it wouldn't be as interesting if you were to play is for example a hardcore dungeon setting, but in an open world, the information from an extensive archive or powerful contacts makes up for a lot.

[Jarlhen]

I know that I am kinda late to the party but here is my solution: What me and my group did was that we made the witch hunter order a very rich and powerful organisation. Like sending gold, magical items and expensive tools to compromise for the lack in power. I know it wouldn't be as interesting if you were to play is for example a hardcore dungeon setting, but in an open world, the information from an extensive archive or powerful contacts makes up for a lot.

A loty has changed since October last year. You should probably open up a new thread discussing the Blood Hunter (not even called Witch Hunter anymore).

[RaynorReynolds]

What bugs me about it is the flavour.

It's supposed to be a Witch Hunter, right? A Class specialising in hunting witches you'd think, no? Then why does it focus on killing Undead, Fiends and Fey?

This was a promotional thing done between Critical Role on Geek and Sundry Vin Diesel for his The Last Witch Hunter movie. Matt has since changed the name of the class made some changes. Crawford looked over it as well and gave him some recommendations. The updated class is here:

www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Matthew%20Mercer