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View Full Version : Puzzled I don't get all the "Roy is/was Holding Back" idea



guguma
2015-10-20, 04:19 AM
Hello All,

So in the most recent comic "Giving up Hope" #1009 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) . We see Roy attack Durkula with his mighty green sword which he did not "activate" before. The concept of Roy holding back using his full power on Durkula has been coming up recently and in the discussion thread of this strip.

I understand that Roy might have thought that Durkula is actually a warped Durkon, and spared his sword but instead attempted to reason with him. However this line of thought would only work if killing Durkula would also permanently kill Durkon.

Roy and Durkula (pretending to be Durkon) were talking about resurrecting/restoring Durkon. Roy due to his lack of knowledge on the subject might have thought that such a process might be done (restoration) where killing Durkula would not be necessary, but he would also take the resurrection option, killing Durkula and raising Durkon.

What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with. Simply by attacking Roy in such a critical moment Durkula gives Roy all the reasons that would justify Roy killing Durkula on a silver platter. He can simply (figuratively) kill Durkula, eliminate a threat to the world, and resurrect the good old Durkon afterwards.

So the question is, why was Roy holding back attacking Durkula to begin with?

Rodin
2015-10-20, 04:33 AM
Hello All,

So in the most recent comic "Giving up Hope" #1009 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) . We see Roy attack Durkula with his mighty green sword which he did not "activate" before. The concept of Roy holding back using his full power on Durkula has been coming up recently and in the discussion thread of this strip.

I understand that Roy might have thought that Durkula is actually a warped Durkon, and spared his sword but instead attempted to reason with him. However this line of thought would only work if killing Durkula would also permanently kill Durkon.

Roy and Durkula (pretending to be Durkon) were talking about resurrecting/restoring Durkon. Roy due to his lack of knowledge on the subject might have thought that such a process might be done (restoration) where killing Durkula would not be necessary, but he would also take the resurrection option, killing Durkula and raising Durkon.

What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with. Simply by attacking Roy in such a critical moment Durkula gives Roy all the reasons that would justify Roy killing Durkula on a silver platter. He can simply (figuratively) kill Durkula, eliminate a threat to the world, and resurrect the good old Durkon afterwards.

So the question is, why was Roy holding back attacking Durkula to begin with?

It's not that Roy was deliberately holding back. He was just having a really hard time fighting his best friend, which was having a major impact on his combat performance. Roy's discovery that it isn't Durkon has the dual effect of removing that barrier and making Roy pissed that some evil force is imitating his dead friend.

As for the activation of the sword, it's been speculated that Roy cannot initiate the green glow at will - it appears to be a crit effect or something affected by Roy's emotions. Since Roy's heart wasn't in the fight up until this point, it didn't go off.

Noka
2015-10-20, 04:34 AM
He was holding back because his sword doesn't come with an on/off switch for his emotional state. While he was striking as best he could, his sword (which seems to be in tune with his emotions) reacted to his reluctance to fight and didn't activate its magic Destroy The Undead property until Roy gave up his reluctance. We know for a fact Roy's not in control of when the starmetal blade activates - at least, not consciously. So that's the major premise for 'holding back'.

Also, destroying Durkon's body seems to be dangerous. Malack's death to the sun is considered permanent, even when you consider much of Tarquin's group could have a pocket cleric for true resurrections. So... by the rules of this universe (which I'm not super familiar with), I'm just willing to guess they NEED Durkon's body to revive him conveniently. So...

137beth
2015-10-20, 05:22 AM
The green glow only seems to trigger when Roy is both very angry and fighting someone he hates. So far, it's triggered for Sabine (after she provoked him), Miko, Xykon, and now HPoH. The sword's effect didn't trigger until now against HPoH, because he was reluctant and conflicted, not angry.

Seto
2015-10-20, 06:11 AM
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with.

No logical reason, yeah. But fighting the corpse of your best friend falls firmly in the emotional category.

Quild
2015-10-20, 06:55 AM
No logical reason, yeah. But fighting the corpse of your best friend falls firmly in the emotional category.This.

Like is the usual thing of "you can't fight me if I take the appearance of one of your friends even if you know I'm not him/her". Or worse, "you can't fight me if I take YOUR appearance".

So far, Roy thought that he was facing evil-Durkon. That Durkon's attitude was slightly influenced by that. Ok, destroying him and having Durkon raised was supposed to have him back to normal, but it's kind a rude thing to do to a friend.
"I don't like the new you, I think the old one was the real one!"

If one of your friends change his attitude toward you because he god a boyfriend/girlfriend or a child or another change, you don't break this because you liked him better as he was. Even if he regrets what he was.

Reboot
2015-10-20, 06:56 AM
Also, destroying Durkon's body seems to be dangerous. Malack's death to the sun is considered permanent, even when you consider much of Tarquin's group could have a pocket cleric for true resurrections.

Undead can't be resurrected. And, after 200-odd years, even resurrecting the-shaman-that-Malack's-body-once-was would be on the verge of timing out (you'd need an epic cleric).

factotum
2015-10-20, 07:14 AM
Undead can't be resurrected. And, after 200-odd years, even resurrecting the-shaman-that-Malack's-body-once-was would be on the verge of timing out (you'd need an epic cleric).

And as Malack himself pointed out, the person he was 200 years ago was entirely different to the vampire, and the vampire was the person that Tarquin et al. knew--why would they be interested in resurrecting some shaman from 200 years ago who doesn't know them?

Quild
2015-10-20, 07:31 AM
And as Malack himself pointed out, the person he was 200 years ago was entirely different to the vampire, and the vampire was the person that Tarquin et al. knew--why would they be interested in resurrecting some shaman from 200 years ago who doesn't know them?

I understood that the spirit of Malack was merged into negative energy or something like that. So it's... totally destroyed. It's not like a soul that goes in an afterlife?

It makes it surprising that in #991, HPoH thinks he can sit at Hel's side as her chosen servant. Three obvious possibilities here:
- He doesn't know himself that it wouldn't work that way and that he's expendable.
- He intends to leave earth before it's destruction and get into Hel's hall through a spell.
- Vampires doesn't work like that and the spirit of a destroyed vampire acts like a soul. So technically, next time a vampire is created and Nerggal gets to put a soul into it, he could get Malack back on tracks. Except if only a new spirit can go in a new vampire.

kabbor
2015-10-20, 07:49 AM
Well, he did, several times, power attack for non-lethal damage (I think that is the term), interpreted as hitting with the side of the blade, knocking durkula across the room.

littlebum2002
2015-10-20, 08:32 AM
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with.

Too bad Roy is a human, and humans rarely use logic when making important decisions, ESPECIALLY when under duress.

There's a HUGE difference between thinking "hey, I need to kill my best friend" and actually doing it.

dancrilis
2015-10-20, 08:52 AM
Consider it this way.

You have a good friend and they have developed a mental illness.
There is a cure for the illness, but there is no guarrentee that fixing the illness will undo the affects on the mind.

You make allowances for them while they seek a cure.
One day they snap and become a threat to everyone around them and you try to stop them, but they are still talking to you as your friend and you respond in kind - hoping to break through to them.

Then they say/do something that makes it fully clear to you that your friend is not home anymore and whatever mental illness they have effectively makes them a different person (and a person that your friend would hate), and they are still a threat to everyone around them.
At this point the dynamic changes from trying to get through to the person they are deep down - to trying to honour the person they were.

Quebbster
2015-10-20, 08:54 AM
The green glow only seems to trigger when Roy is both very angry and fighting someone he hates. So far, it's triggered for Sabine (after she provoked him), Miko, Xykon, and now HPoH. The sword's effect didn't trigger until now against HPoH, because he was reluctant and conflicted, not angry.

And against Malack's mummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) in the pyramid...

Quild
2015-10-20, 09:07 AM
And against Malack's mummies in the pyramid...

They're Draketooth and Girard pissed him big time :smallbiggrin:.
Plus that guy they used a Resurrection spell on for nothing.
Plus that guy with the rift joke.

Deep inside, Roy hates the Draketooth!


Well, he did, several times, power attack for non-lethal damage (I think that is the term), interpreted as hitting with the side of the blade, knocking durkula across the room.
I don't think that it's what is showed actually. The very intend may have been to knockback HPoH, which is done by an attack that doesn't deal damages.

Gift Jeraff
2015-10-20, 09:44 AM
And against Girard's Gate. Roy secretly hates the whole world and wants to see it snarled.

137beth
2015-10-20, 10:09 AM
They're Draketooth and Girard pissed him big time :smallbiggrin:.
Plus that guy they used a Resurrection spell on for nothing.
Plus that guy with the rift joke.

Deep inside, Roy hates the Draketooth!


I don't think that it's what is showed actually. The very intend may have been to knockback HPoH, which is done by an attack that doesn't deal damages.

Okay so the green hue effect triggered a few more times than I remembered:smallredface:

Anyhow, I really doubt he was attempting to do nonlethal damage, since undead are immune to nonlethal damage.

Rinazina
2015-10-20, 10:24 AM
It's not that Roy was deliberately holding back. He was just having a really hard time fighting his best friend, which was having a major impact on his combat performance. Roy's discovery that it isn't Durkon has the dual effect of removing that barrier and making Roy pissed that some evil force is imitating his dead friend.

As for the activation of the sword, it's been speculated that Roy cannot initiate the green glow at will - it appears to be a crit effect or something affected by Roy's emotions. Since Roy's heart wasn't in the fight up until this point, it didn't go off.

I want argue, also, the sword is providing healing in a certain condition ? is a green hilt, green glowing magical sword. if is not this the dramatic time to discover a new feat, when would be ?
The poor Roy has got only a weapon upgrade, while the bard has gotten two, and he fights like an incontinent weasel.

I mean, Rich (hey, awesome job!) fixes art if an error is notice, and has not fixed the lacking of injury in Roy.*

* (if is not a silent heal cast by an invisible niece of Redclock luring around)

factotum
2015-10-20, 10:33 AM
I understood that the spirit of Malack was merged into negative energy or something like that. So it's... totally destroyed. It's not like a soul that goes in an afterlife?

The soul of the un-named shaman who became Malack was presumably freed from its prison upon Malack's death, though, and it's him that would get resurrected if they somehow found a cleric high level level to True Rez someone who died 200 years ago.

Quild
2015-10-20, 11:05 AM
The soul of the un-named shaman who became Malack was presumably freed from its prison upon Malack's death, though, and it's him that would get resurrected if they somehow found a cleric high level level to True Rez someone who died 200 years ago.I know that (including the presumably), but I'm letting it aside, I don't care here.

What I'm wondering if is Malack could come back. I mean, with memories of Tarquin and stuff, with same memories.

Main requirement: Malack (the vampire) spirit wasn't destroyed when the vampire was destroyed and remains somewhere in Nerggal's home or can be extracted from the negative energy plane without losing much.
Another big requirement: That spirit can be put in another new vampire (or undead, or being), even if it's not the corpse of the shaman that became Malack (HPoH and Veldrina mentionned that vampires fakes organic corpse and are only negative energy. Weird thing), even if it's not a cleric (Malack would have the class and levels of that new being though, would be strange to him). And the new memories to absorb wouldn't transform him.


In shorter:
Durkon's corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)
Can that evil spirit take another stagecoach at all? Can it leave and get back on that said stagecoach?

BaronOfHell
2015-10-20, 11:18 AM
Consider this: If memories are tied to souls, the only reason we don't see epic sorcerer/wizard babies, I'd imagine, is that souls aren't recycled. Why should souls derived from the negative energy plane differ?

Quild
2015-10-20, 11:28 AM
Consider this: If memories are tied to souls, the only reason we don't see epic sorcerer/wizard babies, I'd imagine, is that souls aren't recycled. Why should souls derived from the negative energy plane differ?

For the class and levels, the answer is in my parenthesis: (Malack would have the class and levels of that new being though, would be strange to him)

For the memories, because it would be an equivalent of a resurrection spell for a undead rather than of a reincarnation thing.

Grmbl, I checked every page of the new book before checking Hel's speech in the last page of BRitF.
HPoH's spirit was birthed in Hel's hall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) Even if HPoH was sired by Nergal.

Hel had the possibility to put that spirit in Durkon because Durkon was in her purview. It was wondered for some time if that spirit was created before Durkon's death or at that exact moment. The later seems the good answer, but if a vampire's spirit isn't destroyed when the vampire is destroyed and goes back to his god's hall, couldn't it get back to a body the same way it did the first time? Because it was birthed in the hall after all.

ClockShock
2015-10-20, 02:26 PM
...
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with.
...

To be fair to Roy here, the last time I was in a fight to the death with my recently vampiric best friend, I wasn't being too logical about the situation either. In hindsight, it was actually a pretty emotional experience for everyone involved.

Ruslan
2015-10-20, 02:37 PM
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with.If one is not native to the planet Vulcan, being locked in a fight to the death with one's best friend is a very emotional experience, in which logic does not play a leading role.

Fey
2015-10-20, 02:40 PM
What I am trying to convey here is that Roy has absolutely no logical reason to hold back attacking Durkula to begin with.

Since when is the human race logical?

What makes you think Roy is CAPABLE of turning off his emotions and putting his full force into murdering his best friend? It's one thing to know what he has to do, it's quite another to have the resolve to do it without any hesitation, fear, or doubt. Maybe some part of him can't handle the guilt. Maybe some part of him is scared Durkon won't return to his body when the resurrection magic calls. Maybe he's just too emotional to set all his doubts aside no matter if he knows it's the logical thing to do.

Tell you what. Someday if you need to decide whether a friend lives or dies, come back here and tell us how easy it was to make a calm, logical choice.

Mando Knight
2015-10-20, 02:56 PM
If one is not native to the planet Vulcan, being locked in a fight to the death with one's best friend is a very emotional experience, in which logic does not play a leading role.

I'm pretty sure that it's still an emotional experience devoid of logic even if you're from Vulcan, as shown by the classic episode "Amok Time."

factotum
2015-10-20, 03:55 PM
In shorter:
Durkon's corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)
Can that evil spirit take another stagecoach at all? Can it leave and get back on that said stagecoach?

I would be inclined to say not. For a start, becoming a vampire at all is an incredibly rare thing in the Stickverse, per word of Giant: the idea that someone could become a vampire, get destroyed as a vampire and then rezzed, then turn into a vampire again with the same spirit from before riding it seems such a low probability as to be not worth considering. Given that, what use would there be in putting a vampire spirit who's accumulated memories and experiences from one person into a completely different one? It would just make it harder for them to fool people that they're the person in question, because the previous memories would be colouring their opinions.

NecessaryWeevil
2015-10-20, 05:48 PM
This.

Ok, destroying him and having Durkon raised was supposed to have him back to normal, but it's kind a rude thing to do to a friend.
"I don't like the new you, I think the old one was the real one!"

If one of your friends change his attitude toward you because he god a boyfriend/girlfriend or a child or another change, you don't break this because you liked him better as he was. Even if he regrets what he was.

Having a girlfriend/boyfriend is still a choice they made. By trying to change that you're privileging your preferences over their free will.

Being murdered by and becoming a vampire does not involve free will. It's not analogous at all.

Mike Havran
2015-10-20, 06:19 PM
Given that, what use would there be in putting a vampire spirit who's accumulated memories and experiences from one person into a completely different one? It would just make it harder for them to fool people that they're the person in question, because the previous memories would be colouring their opinions.I disagree that a vampire has to act as a person he took over, defaultly. Durkula was a special case, since the charade got him conveniently to the godsmoot and was also the first one done by Hel, ever. Another vampire might just as well be glad to get some experience from his previous ''session.''

Pyrous
2015-10-20, 06:43 PM
To be fair to Roy here, the last time I was in a fight to the death with my recently vampiric best friend, I wasn't being too logical about the situation either. In hindsight, it was actually a pretty emotional experience for everyone involved.
I was going to write something about logic and emotion, but I see that you already won this thread. May I sig this?

torugo
2015-10-20, 08:16 PM
I can agree that Roy was holding back his emotions and that might have stopped the green power to come, but from a drawing perspective this attack dont look that big.

Its cool with all the lights and drama related, but the one Roy did right before receiving harm seem much more severe.

Take a look at it...seems like Roy destroyed the armor and only slashed a bit of flesh and the beard....no vital organs hit.

While right before receiving the harm attack Roy cut halfway through Durkon possibly cutting half of his lungs, digestive system and breaking several bones and muscles in the process...no man could survive that attack...and right before that Roy perfurated Durkon's liver or spleen and impaled Durkon.

Only indication of Roy holding back was several non-damage attacks that only throwed Durkon away.

guguma
2015-10-20, 08:27 PM
I am not going to quote everyone here, but I understand the general idea that it is an emotionally gripping situation (Fighting with your best friend's corpse). Or, I understand the real life arguments like:

"Imagine your best friend is mentally disturbed" etc.

BUT,

They are not fighting casually on the board of Mechane over a simple disagreement, where an "accident" would only kill Roy. The existence of the entire world is at stake.

I was looking for an answer that justifies Roy, holding back, keeping in mind that the world is going to end, and that this world is a magical world where you can have a gaping chest wound healed by uttering magical words, or bring dead back to life.

So real life hesitations of showing aggression barely holds here.

I like these explanations though:


It's not that Roy was deliberately holding back. He was just having a really hard time fighting his best friend, which was having a major impact on his combat performance. Roy's discovery that it isn't Durkon has the dual effect of removing that barrier and making Roy pissed that some evil force is imitating his dead friend.



I can agree that Roy was holding back his emotions and that might have stopped the green power to come, but from a drawing perspective this attack dont look that big.

Its cool with all the lights and drama related, but the one Roy did right before receiving harm seem much more severe.

Take a look at it...seems like Roy destroyed the armor and only slashed a bit of flesh and the beard....no vital organs hit.

While right before receiving the harm attack Roy cut halfway through Durkon possibly cutting half of his lungs, digestive system and breaking several bones and muscles in the process...no man could survive that attack...and right before that Roy perfurated Durkon's liver or spleen and impaled Durkon.

Only indication of Roy holding back was several non-damage attacks that only throwed Durkon away.

Having a hard time, yet still striving to eliminate a threat, I would understand. Holding back from fighting and reasoning with Durkula, I do not. So thank you Rodin and torugo.

Lvl45DM!
2015-10-20, 09:23 PM
Emotions are tricky. You can't sort out the ones you want from the ones you dont.

Like others have said it wasn't that Roy was going "I shouldnt kill him" in his head. Roy was happy to kill Durkula and resurrect him, but he didn't hate him. Plus the way Roy was reasoning with him was tactical assuming it was Durkon. Roy has the best chance of anyone in the world of getting Durkon to back down with words and as we could see, Roy was getting his butt kicked. Diplomacy was the smart move, getting the correct result faster and with less chance of horrific soul destroying death.

But then Durkula made a critical mistake of monologuing and being too cruel so now its not that Roy is now thinking "i dont have to hold back" its Roy thinking "F*** this guy, Im going to kill him." Right now Roy doesn't even really care about the world, he's overwhelmed with rage. Which activates the green glow

Pyrous
2015-10-20, 09:53 PM
I can agree that Roy was holding back his emotions and that might have stopped the green power to come, but from a drawing perspective this attack dont look that big.

Its cool with all the lights and drama related, but the one Roy did right before receiving harm seem much more severe.

Take a look at it...seems like Roy destroyed the armor and only slashed a bit of flesh and the beard....no vital organs hit.

While right before receiving the harm attack Roy cut halfway through Durkon possibly cutting half of his lungs, digestive system and breaking several bones and muscles in the process...no man could survive that attack...and right before that Roy perfurated Durkon's liver or spleen and impaled Durkon.

Only indication of Roy holding back was several non-damage attacks that only throwed Durkon away.

By RAW, Vampires have one vital organ: the heart. And it's only considered vital if staked with a wooden stake.


Emotions are tricky. You can't sort out the ones you want from the ones you dont.

Like others have said it wasn't that Roy was going "I shouldnt kill him" in his head. Roy was happy to kill Durkula and resurrect him, but he didn't hate him. Plus the way Roy was reasoning with him was tactical assuming it was Durkon. Roy has the best chance of anyone in the world of getting Durkon to back down with words and as we could see, Roy was getting his butt kicked. Diplomacy was the smart move, getting the correct result faster and with less chance of horrific soul destroying death.

But then Durkula made a critical mistake of monologuing and being too cruel so now its not that Roy is now thinking "i dont have to hold back" its Roy thinking "F*** this guy, Im going to kill him." Right now Roy doesn't even really care about the world, he's overwhelmed with rage. Which activates the green glow

I would add that even if he wasn't getting his butt kicked, persuading Durkon to get voluntarily manslaughtered (dwarfslaughtered, vampireslaughtered), it would at least be clean and without guilt. Also, staking him, chopping his head and filling it with (tasty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html)) holy wafers would let him be returned to life with a "simple" resurrection (I don't think the vampire vaporizes in this case); but damaging him into mist wouldn't leave a piece of his body. Good thing that Roy just got a chunk of his beard!:smallamused:

EDIT: YAY!:smallbiggrin: I can link again!:smallcool:

Porthos
2015-10-21, 01:35 AM
Emotions are tricky. You can't sort out the ones you want from the ones you dont.

In this case, this is pretty dead on.

It's not so much whether you, I, or some other person in the same situation "wouldn't hold back", it's whether or not Roy would. Or, given that he's a fictional character, someone who is similar to Roy.

The only real question is: Is it believable that someone with the exact right psychological makeup and history to hold back on some level?

I'd say, "yes", no matter how much it doesn't make logical sense.

Also, if we want another argument, the clue might be in the title. Roy is giving up hope. Either the hope that he can reason with Durkon, or that whatever happened to his friend, it is so far removed that it is no longer Durkon, or even the radical notion that something is riding his friend's corpse like a meatpuppet. :smallwink:

And if he has truly given up hope, then, logically, nothing is stopping him from unleashing the fury. Whatever last psychological wall that was holding him back (and, remember, Roy has a history of wanting to find the right thing to say to solve his problems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)) has crumbled and now he is going into full curb stomp mode.

....

If he survives, that is.:smallwink:

=====

To put all of the above in a different way, up to this point in the fight Roy has been trying to figure out WHY is best friend in the world betrayed him so.

Now?

Now he literally doesn't give a damn anymore. And he might be extra pissed off if he does indeed think something is using his best friend's corpse.

That's got to count for something, whether it "should" or not.

Lvl45DM!
2015-10-21, 03:51 AM
And if he has truly given up hope, then, logically, nothing is stopping him from unleashing the fury. Whatever last psychological wall that was holding him back (and, remember, Roy has a history of wanting to find the right thing to say to solve his problems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)) has crumbled and now he is going into full curb stomp mode.

....

I love this. 10 points and a cookie. Roy is a fighter yes, but he's also kinda arrogant. He's SURE on some level that theres something he can say, because he's so clever, that will make things go this way. But he has a limit.

DavidBV
2015-10-21, 04:32 AM
The whole point with Vampires in fiction has always been this: "are they actually the same person? how will they interact with their former family/friends?" and also invariably in those stories, there's a moment when the former friend/family member, unwisely trusts the vampire, thinking he's the same as before. Rich obviously wanted to explore this theme in depth, seeing how he has written the whole HPoH-Durkon plot.

The point here is, HPoH words were stinging Roy badly when Roy believed it was his best friend saying them. Your best friend saying how worthless you are, how you failed to protect everyone including himself, can destroy your morale. On the contrary, knowing that it's just some moster trying to fool you, that also is keeping your best friend as "hostage", can be a boost to your motivation.

Human beings are not machines, I'd say motivation is often 70% of performance, and Rich has already resolved many fight scenes when one of the character suddenly gets an extra motivation to attack more fiercely (although it's true that sometimes it was just comedy, or that it happened more in the old books)

Quild
2015-10-21, 05:04 AM
I would be inclined to say not. For a start, becoming a vampire at all is an incredibly rare thing in the Stickverse, per word of Giant: the idea that someone could become a vampire, get destroyed as a vampire and then rezzed, then turn into a vampire again with the same spirit from before riding it seems such a low probability as to be not worth considering. Given that, what use would there be in putting a vampire spirit who's accumulated memories and experiences from one person into a completely different one? It would just make it harder for them to fool people that they're the person in question, because the previous memories would be colouring their opinions.

The fact that becoming a vampire is rare in the ootsverse isn't suppose to be relevant :smallconfused:.

I was wondering if it was technically possible, you're answering that it's unlikely to happen.

Becoming a vampire in ootsverse is as you say a rare thing, but it doesn't change that you have a 100% chance of becoming a vampire in ootsverse when you're killed by life draining by a vampire and have this 3 days things done correctly.

Malack is not coming back, Giant said it. But I'm wondering if he could. At all. Belkar had this phantasm dream in the pyramid where an unlikely chain of event helped Shojo being resurrected. Can an unlikely chain of event make Malack back?

factotum
2015-10-21, 06:41 AM
I was maybe being a bit unclear. I raised the extreme unlikelihood of it happening because, in my opinion, that means there's no point the vampire spirit continuing to exist after the vampire body is destroyed. It would have no purpose, and thus I think merging with the Negative Material Plane is the most likely result for it. There's no way back from that--it would be like dropping a glass of water into the ocean and then trying to separate out that specific water again a few months later.

Quild
2015-10-21, 06:50 AM
I agree with that. I'm just not sure that it is how it works in ootsverse. Mostly because of HPoH's line about being at Hel's side as her chosen servant.

Brendanicus
2015-10-21, 07:09 AM
Roy wasn't intentionally holding back, but he was still trying to process what had happened to his best friend, and as such wasn't 100% on fighting. I mean Roy, send WAY more time talking than fighting this scene, even more than normal. For most of the fight, his goal was to learn as much about Durkula as possible while staying alive, If he could score a few hits, then that's just a bonus.

Seward
2015-10-23, 10:05 AM
Malack's death to the sun is considered permanent, even when you consider much of Tarquin's group could have a pocket cleric for true resurrections.

True Rez would not bring Malack back. It would bring back the lizardman shaman that he was in life. So there's no point, even if the Vector Legion has access to another high level cleric (Malack WAS their high level cleric)

littlebum2002
2015-10-23, 11:17 AM
I thought there was a spell in BoVD or something which could bring undead back from the, well, dead?

JBiddles
2015-10-23, 11:58 AM
They could probably retrieve Malack's consciousness with Wish, but it would take two or even three castings (one to make his body, another to piece his mind back together, maybe a third to put the two together), and I highly doubt even the Vector Legion has that kind of arcane dakka.

Veya
2015-10-23, 12:41 PM
They could probably retrieve Malack's consciousness with Wish, but it would take two or even three castings (one to make his body, another to piece his mind back together, maybe a third to put the two together), and I highly doubt even the Vector Legion has that kind of arcane dakka.
Maybe they could have an equivalent kind of psionic dakka instead? Reality Revision is equivalent to Wish in all aspects, so anything Wish can do, Reality Revision can do as well.

Although that makes a pretty large asumption that Laurien is at least 16th level so she could pick it up on her next level at the earliest.

The gF
2015-10-23, 12:53 PM
Maybe they could have an equivalent kind of psionic dakka instead? Reality Revision is equivalent to Wish in all aspects, so anything Wish can do, Reality Revision can do as well.

Although that makes a pretty large asumption that Laurien is at least 16th level so she could pick it up on her next level at the earliest.

Also the whole thing would rely on it not being narratively terrible to reverse Malack's True Death. :V

dmc91356
2015-10-23, 01:02 PM
Considering Laurin's words were "Malack's never returning. Neither is his killer." one would imagine that at least Laurin doesn't think it's possible with whatever her level and abilities may be.

Porthos
2015-10-23, 02:02 PM
I thought there was a spell in BoVD or something which could bring undead back from the, well, dead?

Libris Mortis might be the splatbook you're thinking of. Revive Undead is a 6th level Soc/Wiz spell. Unfortunately it is the functional equivalent to Raise Dead and thus won't work on disintegrated/dusted undead. There probably is an equivalent for Resurrection out there in some splatbook somewhere, but the fact that Malack's dust was scattered to the wind precludes even that.

So we're back to Wish-ing for Malack's undead body to return and then using Revive Undead on it. Not exactly an easy proposition even if we weren't thinking about story mechanics versus game mechanics.

littlebum2002
2015-10-23, 02:15 PM
Libris Mortis might be the splatbook you're thinking of. Revive Undead is a 6th level Soc/Wiz spell. Unfortunately it is the functional equivalent to Raise Dead and thus won't work on disintegrated/dusted undead. There probably is an equivalent for Resurrection out there in some splatbook somewhere, but the fact that Malack's dust was scattered to the wind precludes even that.

So we're back to Wish-ing for Malack's undead body to return and then using Revive Undead on it. Not exactly an easy proposition even if we weren't thinking about story mechanics versus game mechanics.

That's the one

F.Harr
2015-10-23, 04:03 PM
And as Malack himself pointed out, the person he was 200 years ago was entirely different to the vampire, and the vampire was the person that Tarquin et al. knew--why would they be interested in resurrecting some shaman from 200 years ago who doesn't know them?

And after finally being freed, why would said shaman want to come back?



In shorter:
Durkon's corpse is being driven around like a stagecoach by an evil spirit. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html)
Can that evil spirit take another stagecoach at all? Can it leave and get back on that said stagecoach?

Maybe each spirit, soul, what have you is designed for each body and can not use another. Durkula can only drive Durkon.



The point here is, HPoH words were stinging Roy badly when Roy believed it was his best friend saying them. Your best friend saying how worthless you are, how you failed to protect everyone including himself, can destroy your morale. On the contrary, knowing that it's just some moster trying to fool you, that also is keeping your best friend as "hostage", can be a boost to your motivation.



I also suspect that Durkon knows exacly how many pieces Eric was in. I rather hope he lied to Durkula by not sharing some crucial memory.

ORione
2015-10-23, 08:32 PM
I also suspect that Durkon knows exacly how many pieces Eric was in. I rather hope he lied to Durkula by not sharing some crucial memory.

The Giant said that Durkon can't lie to Durkula. And how or why would Durkon know how many pieces Eric was in?

dancrilis
2015-10-23, 08:45 PM
The Giant said that Durkon can't lie to Durkula. And how or why would Durkon know how many pieces Eric was in?

You can imagine the conversation alright.
:roy: And when I entered the room ... he was gone.
:durkon: Gone - your father took him somewhere?
:roy: No he crossed over.
:durkon: A bridge?
:roy: No he had been taken to the afterlife.
:durkon: Ah - your father plane shifted him across for a vacation.
:roy: No ...
:durkon: Gate - I didn't think your father was that powerful?
:roy: He was dead - in pieces in the room.
:durkon: Oh.
...
:durkon: Out of curiosity ... how many pieces?
:roy: Six ... well six and a half.
:durkon: How the hell do you have half a piece?
:roy: Well you see there were six clearly identifiable pieces and one stain that might have been a piece or might have just been some random dirt.
:durkon: Ah got it thanks for sharing.


I have my doubts as to if this conversation occured.

ORione
2015-10-23, 08:57 PM
:durkon: Out of curiosity ... how many pieces?


:roy: What the hell is the matter with you? Why would you even ask that?

Pyrous
2015-10-23, 09:13 PM
:roy: What the hell is the matter with you? Why would you even ask that?
:roy: Oh.
:sigh: I understand.
:furious: YOU'RE NOT DURKON AT ALL!!

SCHRRRIP!

Rift_Wolf
2015-10-24, 07:55 AM
The whole point with Vampires in fiction has always been this: "are they actually the same person? how will they interact with their former family/friends?'

Pretty sure main point of vampires in fiction involves Blood? Everything else is just subtext.

Also, just because Malack is gone for good doesn't mean his Spirit isn't in Nergals Hall right now. Eugene and Horace Greenhilt aren't coming back, but they still get their afterlife. Hpohs claim of standing by Hel's side might refer to him getting a place of honour in her halls... Or it could refer to this scene. Right now. Where he's literally stood by her side as she achieves her greatest Triumph (or was, till Roy started batting him about).

Bongos
2015-10-24, 12:19 PM
Oh man, when I clicked on this thread I did not imagine I'd be reading this level of hilarity!

137beth
2015-10-27, 12:53 AM
You can imagine the conversation alright.
:roy: And when I entered the room ... he was gone.
:durkon: Gone - your father took him somewhere?
:roy: No he crossed over.
:durkon: A bridge?
:roy: No he had been taken to the afterlife.
:durkon: Ah - your father plane shifted him across for a vacation.
:roy: No ...
:durkon: Gate - I didn't think your father was that powerful?
:roy: He was dead - in pieces in the room.
:durkon: Oh.
...
:durkon: Out of curiosity ... how many pieces?
:roy: Six ... well six and a half.
:durkon: How the hell do you have half a piece?
:roy: Well you see there were six clearly identifiable pieces and one stain that might have been a piece or might have just been some random dirt.
:durkon: Ah got it thanks for sharing.


I have my doubts as to if this conversation occured.
The first half sounds like a conversation that would actually have occurred between Durkon and Roy. I think the point was that Durkon wouldn't have actually wondered how many pieces. An Evil Durkon might have, but since Durkon heard the story whilst still alive, he couldn't possibly have "always wondered" it, unless the being doing the wondering was actually a separate entity who was always evil.

Lombard
2015-10-27, 12:06 PM
If it really is "activate on emotion" now, it would be a bit too cute to call it anything but a retcon.

barasawa
2015-10-28, 03:00 PM
A possibility to the vampire spirit thing.
It might be that a vampire spirit is an incomplete thing. It has a set of function commands and information hardwired in, but any one of them waiting around to be infused into a mortal is pretty much the same as any other. It's only when it's put into a mortal does it gain access to their experiences and thus develop into a warped personality that is the evil vampire.

In a case like this, you can even argue that the experiences and memories it has, other than the preinstalled stuff, is processed using the host. It's obvious they have to interrogate the captured host soul for information about themselves, so it wouldn't be too much to suggest that their own memories are reliant upon the host as well.

Now if you destroy/kill such a vampire, you release the host soul, and the vampire spirit. The vampire spirit returns to whatever netherhell it came from, but it can't take the hosts abilities or memories with it. It can't even really take the memories from it's time in the host with it, since they are tied to the host. I'd guess it might have a muddled and generalized feel for things, but nothing really useful. Otherwise vamping someone, then taking back the vamp spirit would be a great way to gather intelligence in some villains estimates. I would even guess that if a host can be rezzed after that, their memories of the time as a vampire would also be messed up, but maybe not as bad, because they have the body and a semi-contiguous existence.

Now if you then revamped the host with the same vampire spirit, I would guess it would have an easier time reestablishing control because this one feels familiar, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same exact personality. Of course, due to the basic similarity of the vampire spirits, they'd probably end up very much alike, even if it was a completely different vampire. It's like putting a template on a PC as opposed to replacing them with a monster.

Come to think of it, did the vampire spirit ever indicate it had a personal name?

hroşila
2015-10-28, 03:24 PM
If it really is "activate on emotion" now, it would be a bit too cute to call it anything but a retcon.
Except that virtually every analysis had already shown this to be the case, with the only disagreement being on what emotion exactly triggered it.

Lombard
2015-10-28, 07:44 PM
Except that virtually every analysis had already shown this to be the case, with the only disagreement being on what emotion exactly triggered it.

There's no emotion that would explain them all and at the same time explain why it didn't go off at other times. There's a nice list of all the times it occurred before the current battle here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19772420&postcount=29).

One interesting explanation that may have been brought up before.. I can't remember if it has.. is that the sword is acting like an artifact with its own personality which is now beginning to, at times, overwhelm Roy's own personality. This sort of thing was described in detail in the 2nd Edition "Book of Artifacts". What we've seen of the sword's story so far doesn't match up with the usual tropes for an artifact-level item. But I don't really see any reason why one couldn't ditch those elements while still keeping the bits about the power of the item and its acquiring/asserting a personality. Starmetal + backstory + master smith = artifact level item wouldn't be the standard formula involving drawn-out magical rituals, but it wouldn't be a bad formula in and of itself.