Sleeping in the cold/no campfire?

[Ointhedwarf]

The player's group has just escaped from captivity and will probably spend a couple of weeks running away, hiding. I expect the answer "we don't make a campfire" but this is obviously taking advantage of the rules. What penalties should I put for not using a campfire?
Mind you, it's still early spring in the campaign and the terrain is more on the warmish side so I'd probably roll a random die to see if it is actually that cold, but this would actually make things more interesting, the druid could roll some survival checks to foresee the night's chill and prepare accorndigly.
So what penalties would you use for relatively cold/ chilling cold camping?

[Kelb_Panthera]

No campfire, no bedroll (I'm assuming), no resting benefits. No rest, no refreshed memory for spell prep', no natural healing.

A small campfire can be concealed and a some effort needs to be made to keep from sleeping directly on the ground. Mind, this needs to be early spring in a temperate region. Tropical and subtropical environments don't get cold enough for such exposure concerns most of the time and summer in a temperate region is usually warm enough to alleviate such concerns.

This advise will likely be harshly criticized. Make of that what you will.

[Tuvarkz]

The player's group has just escaped from captivity and will probably spend a couple of weeks running away, hiding. I expect the answer "we don't make a campfire" but this is obviously taking advantage of the rules. What penalties should I put for not using a campfire?
Mind you, it's still early spring in the campaign and the terrain is more on the warmish side so I'd probably roll a random die to see if it is actually that cold, but this would actually make things more interesting, the druid could roll some survival checks to foresee the night's chill and prepare accorndigly.
So what penalties would you use for relatively cold/ chilling cold camping?

Probably a -1 penalty to all d20s for the first hour of the day as they warm up with the sun. Generally, leaves, or a cloak can be used to rest one's head pretty well, assuming the ground isn't hard bedrock or dried up earth (Not sand, that one can also be easily moved around) it doesn't take much for a person to move around the sand/dirt/grass to find a comfortable sleeping position.

[Ointhedwarf]

No campfire, no bedroll (I'm assuming), no resting benefits. No rest, no refreshed memory for spell prep', no natural healing.


it doesn't take much for a person to move around the sand/dirt/grass to find a comfortable sleeping position.

I want to emphasize on the no campfire one, there is not reason for them not to make a tent or at least cover themselves but below a certain temperature a campfire is compulsory. It's not a question of discomfort as much as health safety.
The reason they wouldn't use a campfire is because it is very easy to spot one in the dark, and being hunted down they would try to hide as much as possible. I'll probably reward high Survival checks with a cave, but they would still have to sleep outside at some point.


Tropical and subtropical environments don't get cold enough for such exposure concerns most of the time and summer in a temperate region is usually warm enough to alleviate such concerns.

I live in Greece, and even though it is considered the warmest country in Europe, you wouldn't dream of sleeping outside in March (some years it even snows in March). But this doesn't really matter, I need a solution for camping without fire anyway.

[Troacctid]

Characters who are unprotected from the cold must make Fortitude saves regularly to avoid taking nonlethal damage and contracting hypothermia if the temperature is 40° F or below. If the temperature is above 40° F, the cold poses no danger (although strong winds can lower the effective temperature band due to wind chill). Typically, the temperature drops one band at night, so if it's 60° F or colder during the day, it will probably drop below 40° F during the night.

A campfire is not necessary to stave off cold. Simple fur clothing will protect you from temperatures down to 0° F. Since the party has a Druid, the obvious solution is for the Druid to cast Endure Elements on everybody, which sidesteps the issue quite neatly.

[Bronk]

What level is the party? Can the druid wild shape yet? If so, that character should be fine, but... Could the druid, in fact, become something big and fluffy that everyone could huddle up to for warmth? Maybe a snow leopard? If not, now would be a great time to attract a big fluffy animal companion.

[Ointhedwarf]

What level is the party? Can the druid wild shape yet? If so, that character should be fine, but... Could the druid, in fact, become something big and fluffy that everyone could huddle up to for warmth? Maybe a snow leopard? If not, now would be a great time to attract a big fluffy animal companion.

Hahaha! If only he could wildshape, I think he would have loved that.


A campfire is not necessary to stave off cold. Simple fur clothing will protect you from temperatures down to 0° F. Since the party has a Druid, the obvious solution is for the Druid to cast Endure Elements on everybody, which sidesteps the issue quite neatly.

I had completely forgot about that spell, especially the fact that is lasts for 24 hours. Thanks!

[Sian]

with warm clothes and winter blankets its perfectly possible to sleep in tent in the middle of winter with no campfire around, without any problems ... My brother (Scout) for a couple of years traveled halfway up through Sweden to sleep in tent with his group around newyears. Its just a question of having warm enough clothes and blankets.

No fire is more of a issue when it comes to food if you don't have trail rations than keeping warm

[Kesnit]

I spent last weekend camping in the cold without a campfire (but with a tent and blankets). Here's my input.


No campfire, no bedroll (I'm assuming), no resting benefits. No rest, no refreshed memory for spell prep', no natural healing.

A small campfire can be concealed and a some effort needs to be made to keep from sleeping directly on the ground. Mind, this needs to be early spring in a temperate region. Tropical and subtropical environments don't get cold enough for such exposure concerns most of the time and summer in a temperate region is usually warm enough to alleviate such concerns.

This advise will likely be harshly criticized. Make of that what you will.

Yeah, that is a bit too harsh. We managed to fire a cannon safely (about 15 times) after two nights of sleeping in the cold.


Probably a -1 penalty to all d20s for the first hour of the day as they warm up with the sun.

That's assuming the sun warms things up and the wind isn't bad. Cold wind cuts through clothing and sucks heat and energy out of you. I'd recommend rolling to see if the wind or cloud cover is bad enough (and it doesn't take much) to keep the sun from warming the party.


Generally, leaves, or a cloak can be used to rest one's head pretty well, assuming the ground isn't hard bedrock or dried up earth (Not sand, that one can also be easily moved around) it doesn't take much for a person to move around the sand/dirt/grass to find a comfortable sleeping position.

If you are using a cloak as a pillow, you aren't using it as a blanket. Given that the party escaped from captivity, I can't imagine they have a lot of supplies to be able to use two cloaks each.


I want to emphasize on the no campfire one, there is not reason for them not to make a tent or at least cover themselves

A tent will protect from the wind, but unless they can cocoon themselves, something is going to get cold. (face, feet, etc). I could always tell when one of my blankets had slipped because I started getting a draft. Even a small opening can let in a lot of cold air.


A campfire is not necessary to stave off cold. Simple fur clothing will protect you from temperatures down to 0° F.

How much clothing does the party have? They'd have to be covered from head to toe with clothing made well enough to not snag and rip.


Since the party has a Druid, the obvious solution is for the Druid to cast Endure Elements on everybody, which sidesteps the issue quite neatly.

Which would take all the Druid's first level spells, even accounting for the bonus spells from WIS, unless the party is level 8 or above. (At LVL 8, the Druid would have 1-2 more level 1 spells, depending on WIS.)

Recommendations
After 1 day, anything requiring fine manipulation is at a -1.
After 3 days, anything requiring fine manipulation is at a -2, and anything requiring thought is at a -1. (Cold makes it hard to sleep, meaning the party will be getting tired.)
After 5 days, anything requiring fine manipulation and anything requiring thought is at a -3. Strength checks are at a -2.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Free up your weekend, and check out a show called 'Survivorman'. Youtube should have a few clips to get you started.

By the time you're done, you'll have more than enough understanding of what the effects of heavy physical activity, little sleep, less food, and no fire have on a person.

Though if you're feeling kind, remind your players (those who could make a DC10 survival check) that they could make a fire a few hours before the sun goes down, heat up some rocks, and use those to help stave off the night's cold, if only for a few hours.

[Troacctid]

Recommendations
After 1 day, anything requiring fine manipulation is at a -1.
After 3 days, anything requiring fine manipulation is at a -2, and anything requiring thought is at a -1. (Cold makes it hard to sleep, meaning the party will be getting tired.)
After 5 days, anything requiring fine manipulation and anything requiring thought is at a -3. Strength checks are at a -2.
You don't need to improvise penalties. The DMG has rules for hypothermia already. You can find them in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#coldDangers). (TL;DR nonlethal damage and fatigue.)

As for what constitutes adequate protection from cold, refer to chapter 1 of Frostburn for details on the different levels of cold protection you can have and how effective they are at any given temperature band.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#coldDangers) are pretty clear. Fort saves every hour or nonlethal damage (+ fatigue), with damage getting lethal once someone falls unconscious.
That's unprotected though so it's more a problem for the day when your party is on the move and doesn't have sufficient clothing to protect from the cold.

At night you can survive even freezing temperatures by building a shelter out of branches and leaves to keep out wind and preserve heat and burying into a pile of leaves to sleep (as long as they're dry), even naked. With more than one person sharing heat it would work even better.

It's a pretty basic survival tactic in RL, so i'd assume a druid with some ranks in survival would be aware of it and when it's necessary to avoid exposure.

[Troacctid]

It's true. Improvised shelter is worth +3 to your level of cold protection, allowing you to endure temperatures as low as 50° F, even with no other protection at all.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, I would make them do the whole survival check thing to prep a camp site for shelter each night. An improvised shelter DOES NOT prevent the need to make fortitude saves. It merely grants +4 to the check to resist the non-lethal damage.

This, unfortunately leaves a nice breadcrumb trail of obviously man made shelters for their pursuers to follow.

Each night of rest the party settles down for the night. They make DC 15 survival checks to build an improvised shelter. One person can build a shelter for another by beating his check by 1 per addition person he wants to shelter.

They all bed down for 8 hours of sleep. Lets say it's cold out and the sun set drops the temperature down to 30 degrees. Suddenly they are making fort saves. Roll a fort save for each hour they rest. The first save is a 15 DC, the second a 16, the third a 17.

8 hours of rest would look something like this
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 15
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 16
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 17
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 18
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 19
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 20
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 21
1d20+fort save+4 for survival shelter to beat DC 22

Ok, so they failed some saves. They take 1d6 non-lethal damage per failed save

Unfortuantly if they failed a single save they wake up fatigued. This applies a -2 penalty to strength and dexterity until they rest for 8 hours.

They cannot naturally recover from this non-lethal damage until they warm themselves up. The fatigue recovers once they rest for 8 hours, but if they stay cold they will keep failing saves and never be able to recover.

If you want to be nasty, have it rain the next day. A cold rain will be a deadly threat to the party if they are caught unprepared. The saves won't stop at 8 hours and they will be making increasingly high DC's all day.

Endure elements ends all these problems.

[Troacctid]

An improvised shelter DOES NOT prevent the need to make fortitude saves. It merely grants +4 to the check to resist the non-lethal damage.


Per Frostburn p10, it does prevent the need to make Fortitude saves.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, It's Cold Outside has overruled the PHB. If you are playing with that book, those rules are primary over the PHB when it comes to cold weather survival.

[Cwymbran-San]

If we assume that the druid solves the cold-issue, having no campfire might attract animal predators. People have used fire to stave off wild animals for ages since they fear fire. A pack of wolves perhaps? Having no fire to scare them off might have them attack the Group. Also, having no fire means no light during the fight, perhaps inflicting vision penalties on them (while the wolves with their scent ability should be fine locating their "prey").

No fire means no boiling water, so you might also catch diarrhoe from drinking unclean water as well as attracting fleas and other vermin since you will not wash yourself with cold water.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, no light for the night watch to keep watch by. It is much easier for a monster to sneak up on them if the night watchman doesn't have darkvision, and even then, they have a very short range of vision.

[Studoku]

No fire means no boiling water, so you might also catch diarrhoe from drinking unclean water as well as attracting fleas and other vermin since you will not wash yourself with cold water.
Create water is a level 0 druid spell.

[Curmudgeon]

Create water is a level 0 druid spell.
So is Purify Food and Drink, which will create more clean water than Create Water. It will also remove toxic bits from random insects and plants, with whatever is left (which might not be much) as edible food.

[Tuvarkz]

If we assume that the druid solves the cold-issue, having no campfire might attract animal predators. People have used fire to stave off wild animals for ages since they fear fire. A pack of wolves perhaps? Having no fire to scare them off might have them attack the Group. Also, having no fire means no light during the fight, perhaps inflicting vision penalties on them (while the wolves with their scent ability should be fine locating their "prey").

No fire means no boiling water, so you might also catch diarrhoe from drinking unclean water as well as attracting fleas and other vermin since you will not wash yourself with cold water.

People have drunk river water before without automatically getting their innards in problems, and you can certainly wash in cold water. Neither of these penalties should apply.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If we assume that the druid solves the cold-issue, having no campfire might attract animal predators. People have used fire to stave off wild animals for ages since they fear fire. A pack of wolves perhaps? Having no fire to scare them off might have them attack the Group. Also, having no fire means no light during the fight, perhaps inflicting vision penalties on them (while the wolves with their scent ability should be fine locating their "prey").

No fire means no boiling water, so you might also catch diarrhoe from drinking unclean water as well as attracting fleas and other vermin since you will not wash yourself with cold water.

Wolves generally don't attack even single humans unless they're hungry or threatened, and certainly not a whole group. The same is true for most animals, because humans are dangerous. Predators won't go after other predators unless they're defending their territory or they're starving, at least not those that would be deterred by a campfire.
Sure, your characters may attract one or two but more than that beg the question where this remarkable density of dangerous wildlife is during the day and why the characters haven't noticed them and taken precautions.

Also remember that one of the characters is a druid. Throwing animals at them is pretty much giving them free allies if he's smart enough to use his Wild Empathy, because the checks aren't really that hard to make unless you're very low level.

People have been drinking unboiled water for a long time before the existence of bacteria became known. It's highly likely that your characters are pretty resistant against most common bacteria unless they're in a different country than usual.
And you don't attract vermin by not washing for a week unless it's a habit instead of an exception because of the circumstances. Especially not if it's cold.
Sure, your characters may feel a bit grimy and wish for a hot bath, but going without for a few days shouldn't really be a novel experience for adventurers in a standard fantasy setting.

[Nifft]

In my camping experience, a fire is not directly responsible for the warmth when people are sleeping. Fires are kept in areas which are far away from sleepers.

Shelter, separation from the ground, and coverings: that's what keeps you warm. Snuggling up with a pile of dogs or some fellow campers is a reasonable substitute for a sleeping bag, but not a substitute for shelter or ground separation.

What a fire is good for is cooking, and heating water, both of which are very useful -- hot water for washing & cleaning up, and cooking for all the obvious reasons.

AFAICT, though, it's not that hard to make a small, low-smoke campfire which is difficult to see from a distance. At night, you're more worried about open flames than smoke; during the day, you're more worried about smoke than visible flames.

In the worst case, if you're worried about flying pursuers, the party could still make fires separate from their sleeping area -- as in, make a fire for bathing / cleaning / dinner, then keep walking another hour and sleep a mile away from where the fire was.

[Curmudgeon]

In my camping experience, a fire is not directly responsible for the warmth when people are sleeping. Fires are kept in areas which are far away from sleepers.
You're right. But a fire is what you need when you're too cold and uncomfortable to sleep.

Let me tell you about my last experience as a Boy Scout. We went on a camporee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camporee): lots of Scouts camping in a huge open area. The Scoutmasters, in their infinite wisdom, decreed that the tents must be laid out in straight lines at regular intervals. My tent had to be pitched at the bottom of a hill. As Murphy decreed, it rained and the runoff from the hill flooded my tent. There was no sleep for me with my sleeping bag saturated in water, but I did demonstrate my fire-starting skills by getting one of the pre-laid bonfires (for the next day's festivities) going despite the wet. I spent the rest of the night with my poncho covering my head and draped down my back, leaning my exposed front toward the fire. The rain let up before dawn, and I was actually fairly comfortable (though tired) when my Scoutmaster woke up to hear my opinion of his camp arrangement.

[Nifft]

You're right. But a fire is what you need when you're too cold and uncomfortable to sleep.
It's more like... it's a good way to dry your clothes. It's a good way to heat water so you can wash your clothes. It's a good way to make hot food which makes you feel (briefly) warm and tired. It's associated with resting, but it's not necessary for resting.


Let me tell you about my last experience as a Boy Scout. We went on a camporee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camporee): lots of Scouts camping in a huge open area. The Scoutmasters, in their infinite wisdom, decreed that the tents must be laid out in straight lines at regular intervals. My tent had to be pitched at the bottom of a hill. As Murphy decreed, it rained and the runoff from the hill flooded my tent. There was no sleep for me with my sleeping bag saturated in water, but I did demonstrate my fire-starting skills by getting one of the pre-laid bonfires (for the next day's festivities) going despite the wet. I spent the rest of the night with my poncho covering my head and draped down my back, leaning my exposed front toward the fire. The rain let up before dawn, and I was actually fairly comfortable (though tired) when my Scoutmaster woke up to hear my opinion of his camp arrangement.
Dang, you have my sympathy.

But yeah, that's an example of making a fire and NOT resting.

Kind of different from what we're talking about -- which is resting with or without a fire.

If the Ranger utterly fails the Make Camp check and your whole party ends up drenched, then a big fire could be very useful for them to dry off -- just like in your story. But that's a rather specialized case.

[Ointhedwarf]

Thanks for your answers,

So wait, are you saying that keeping a campfire while resting is not necessary? A campfire's main use includes boiling water, bathing and cooking food? If so what's the use of having a campfire at all since the druid can clean the food, which could be cold rations and they could go unbathed until they reach a city or something? I always thought that a warm fire was the only thing that saved you in the winter, typical northern longhouses even have a constant fireplace in the center.
As you can probably tell, I'm trying to take advantage of the group's low level to make encounters out of more mundane things before the campaign turns into a dragon hunt or something. I want to make them try to help their druid lead them to safety and not skip the 2 weeks with a simple "you made it" description.

[Tuvarkz]

Thanks for your answers,

So wait, are you saying that keeping a campfire while resting is not necessary? A campfire's main use includes boiling water, bathing and cooking food? If so what's the use of having a campfire at all since the druid can clean the food, which could be cold rations and they could go unbathed until they reach a city or something? I always thought that a warm fire was the only thing that saved you in the winter, typical northern longhouses even have a constant fireplace in the center.
As you can probably tell, I'm trying to take advantage of the group's low level to make encounters out of more mundane things before the campaign turns into a dragon hunt or something. I want to make them try to help their druid lead them to safety and not skip the 2 weeks with a simple "you made it" description.

Basically, a campfire is a commodity, a mundane group should've managed to scrape by by themselves, adding a druid to the mix just makes it a non issue.

[Troacctid]

Who needs a campfire when you have magic specifically designed to fill the same purpose?

They'll still need Survival checks to avoid getting lost. Random encounters will probably pop up as well. And of course, you can give them non-random encounters.

[Spore]

A fire also keeps animals and other ... creatures... away. Sure, trackers are a concern but a pack of wolves are more immediate. Or - if wolves are a non issue for them, keep things interesting with other higher level wildlife. As for commodity issues I would go for a simple Foritude check. DC 12 seems okay for early spring. It's mainly a tad bit wet, which might make things very uncomfortable. Also keep in mind that in more tropic environments, mud and insects are a much higher concern.

[Ashtagon]

I live in Greece, and even though it is considered the warmest country in Europe, you wouldn't dream of sleeping outside in March (some years it even snows in March). But this doesn't really matter, I need a solution for camping without fire anyway.


Don't read too much into that. Many years ago I was on holiday in Tanzania (on the equator). Because it was their local winter, and a frigid 37 °C (very cold for them), the locals were wearing thick sweaters and marvelling at how us Europeans were able to tolerate the cold and wear only a tee shirt.

Note that if you have any common sense, you extinguish a camp fire fully before the last person goes to sleep. Camp fires do not keep you warm while you sleep. Even if someone stands watch in turns all night, you do not sleep close enough to the fire to be warmed meaningfully (in case you roll over and ignite your bedroll), and the fire would probably spoil night vision for anyone actually on watch if they were close enough to be meaningfully warmed.

As long as you have a suitable bedroll, temperatures as low as 15 C should not prove troublesome to sleep in outdoors. Issues arise if there is any kind of inclement precipitation or high winds (which, to be sure, a camp fire won't do squat about).

The main issue with no camp fires is that any food you eat will be cold, and raw and/or uncooked. This may have sanitation issues if the food is merely "fresh", and may have morale issues in any case.

[Honest Tiefling]

I have no idea what Greek weather is like, but where I am, in sunny California, what can kill people despite the warm temperatures is fog rolling in. Water and rain is common to many climates in spring, and this might be more of a problem then the actual temperatures.

It might be good to track anyway, since rain will either wash away tracks, slow their progress, or make the ground muddy for more tracks. Not to mention, a bunch of muddy people in rags might be a tad suspicious if they ever get back to civilization.

[Amphetryon]

It might be good to track anyway, since rain will either wash away tracks, slow their progress, or make the ground muddy for more tracks. Not to mention, a bunch of muddy people in rags might be a tad suspicious if they ever get back to civilization.
Why would muddy people be suspicious if they were coming from the outside, be it the road or the wilderness, when weather was known to have been bad? It's not like the peasantry would expect everyone to be traveling by Range Rover.

Also, Prestidigitation: Clean says 'hi.'

[sleepyphoenixx]

It might be good to track anyway, since rain will either wash away tracks, slow their progress, or make the ground muddy for more tracks. Not to mention, a bunch of muddy people in rags might be a tad suspicious if they ever get back to civilization.

If they're worried about being tracked the druid could just cast Pass without Trace.
And since most standard fantasy settings have no paved roads (or at least only rarely) travellers will always be muddy when they arrive after it has rained. If it hasn't they'll merely be dusty.
The rags might be a bigger problem depending on how bad it is, but that can easily be explained away - monster attacks, bandits, "we got lost"... unless someone is already looking for them nobody should really bat an eye at that.

[Honest Tiefling]

There's not a lot of guarantee that civilization won't recognize them as escaped slaves, and attempt to hand them back in for a reward, or hit them upside the head and resell them back to anyone wanting a slave.

The mud thing is accurate, but would imply they have travelled a great distance...Which means they might not have a lot of witnesses or people poking around about such a crime, especially if they were forced to travel on such a bad night. The rag thing I mentioned would probably tip things over into the more suspicious territory of 'these people don't belong here'.

The Pass without Trace is a good suggestion, and I do wonder if the druid has been prepping and using it.

[Solaris]

Thanks for your answers,

So wait, are you saying that keeping a campfire while resting is not necessary? A campfire's main use includes boiling water, bathing and cooking food? If so what's the use of having a campfire at all since the druid can clean the food, which could be cold rations and they could go unbathed until they reach a city or something? I always thought that a warm fire was the only thing that saved you in the winter, typical northern longhouses even have a constant fireplace in the center.

It saves you the spell slots, mostly.
A fireplace in a building is a vastly different beast than a campfire out in the open. The fireplace is designed to channel heat into the building, while the campfire has no such advantages and most of its heat goes straight up. What's going to keep you warm isn't the fire, it's putting layers of padded bedding in between you and the ground (the earth steals your warmth much more readily than the air) and a blanket in between you in the air to trap your body heat. I've done cold weather survival training in Alaska with nothing but my skivvies (keeping your clothes on in the bedroll is actually a bad idea, as that makes you sweat more and sweat = death) and a cold weather sleeping bag. It wasn't a high-tech bag; arctic peoples have been making use of similar stuff since before writing was a thing. In something as comfortably warm as what you'll find in Mediterranean climes, you don't even need to get all that fancy about it; some cloaks and animal hides will do. If nothing else, everybody gets real friendly-like and nobody makes eye contact in the morning.
As an illustration of how important trapping body heat is and how unimportant the temperature of material you use to do so, I present the quinzee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinzhee). We made them for our training, and had no want for a campfire to keep us warm inside of them. Snow's a great insulator.


As you can probably tell, I'm trying to take advantage of the group's low level to make encounters out of more mundane things before the campaign turns into a dragon hunt or something. I want to make them try to help their druid lead them to safety and not skip the 2 weeks with a simple "you made it" description.

Surviving in good weather like what you're presenting is trivial, and encounters with hungry wildlife (while rather nice because they make the druid happy he's playing a druid) are par for the course.
Have you considered a storm of some sort? A blizzard, thunderstorm, flash flood, something like that?


You're right. But a fire is what you need when you're too cold and uncomfortable to sleep.

Let me tell you about my last experience as a Boy Scout. We went on a camporee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camporee): lots of Scouts camping in a huge open area. The Scoutmasters, in their infinite wisdom, decreed that the tents must be laid out in straight lines at regular intervals. My tent had to be pitched at the bottom of a hill. As Murphy decreed, it rained and the runoff from the hill flooded my tent. There was no sleep for me with my sleeping bag saturated in water, but I did demonstrate my fire-starting skills by getting one of the pre-laid bonfires (for the next day's festivities) going despite the wet. I spent the rest of the night with my poncho covering my head and draped down my back, leaning my exposed front toward the fire. The rain let up before dawn, and I was actually fairly comfortable (though tired) when my Scoutmaster woke up to hear my opinion of his camp arrangement.

That sounds depressingly similar to my last field training exercise in the Army, only instead of setting a fire I dug out the sludge trench our idiot 1SG ordered filled in... and dug out a series of canals to take the runoff I told our idiot LTC (he's an engineer! He should know this!) would be going right through our game trail-death ground of an encampment location.
I saved the taxpayer a lot of money with my combat landscaping skills that night.

I'd have started a fire, but the only things properly burnable were the tents everyone else was sleeping in, and I didn't quite hate them that much.

Speaking of field training exercises and Boy Scout camping, I can count with one hand the number of times I've been out in the wilderness and had a campfire - and the number of times it's been burning while everyone was asleep was precisely zero. Matter of fact, if you're on guard a campfire is a bad idea, because it ruins your night sight and does a pretty good job of highlighting your particular position if someone's a-creepin' up on you.

I don't think throwing a monster at them is necessarily the encounter to make this feel like they're fugitives in dire straits. Adventurers are used to dealing with monsters. Find some weather and make them fear the wind and the rain.

[Elkad]

Fire can warm your bed just fine.
Build a long fire and let it burn a while. The ground under it will warm. Rake the coals to the side and sleep where the fire was. Often better than trying to get your bed insulated from the ground.
Takes some experience (a survival check) to get it right.
Regarding fire heat going up, a reflector rock helps a lot.
Combine the two for even more warmth. Long fire near a vertical rock. Push the fire away, lay on the warm ground between the fire and the rock. Heat from the fire reflects off the rock to warm the other side of you.
Of course the restrictions on fire and sneaking still apply. You can see a fire many miles away on a moonless night.

Without a fire and with limited equipment, don't forget the value of a puppy pile. Snuggling with the stinky dwarf is like an extra blanket for each of you.

Druids. If they can shapeshift, have them turn into a Tauntaun, cut them open, and crawl inside. And you thought the dwarf smelled bad.

[Eisfalken]

If you're doing a low-level wilderness adventure... why in the heck do you care about a campfire?!

Everything is dangerous to these guys at this level. You don't even need goblins or orcs; just a pack of starving wolves could tear them apart if they aren't careful, and a stampede of bison could destroy them. Then there's having to make Survival checks to stay fed and hydrated, Knowledge (geography) checks to figure out where they are traveling to/from, Craft and Profession checks to make even the most basic needs met (clothing, tools, weapons, etc.). A single rainstorm could flood them out. A tornado could blast the entire area. A forest fire would be a hell-storm of heat and smoke.

And then you can just have poachers who refuse to leave witnesses behind, humanoid tribes who consider certain areas their own hunting grounds (or holy places like where they bury the dead), etc.

No wilderness-oriented character (barbarian, druid, ranger, scout, etc.) should give a flying rat hump about building campfires when it isn't necessary. Easier to kill animals to get fur hides, and build temporary shelters to get out of the wind. Their focus should be largely on the other dangers lurking in the untamed wilderness.

[Platymus Pus]

If we assume that the druid solves the cold-issue, having no campfire might attract animal predators. People have used fire to stave off wild animals for ages since they fear fire. A pack of wolves perhaps? Having no fire to scare them off might have them attack the Group. Also, having no fire means no light during the fight, perhaps inflicting vision penalties on them (while the wolves with their scent ability should be fine locating their "prey").

No fire means no boiling water, so you might also catch diarrhoe from drinking unclean water as well as attracting fleas and other vermin since you will not wash yourself with cold water.

Wolves should all just line up and coup de grace the party if they all fail perception checks.

[Tohsaka Rin]

...I had to pop it in a box, it was getting silly-long, but my thoughts on that are as follows.



"Ok, line up, nice and orderly, people. Ted! Ted, get at the end of the line!"

"But I'm hungry noowww!"

"No, you know the rules. Last in line, eats last."

"But mine is a gnome, nobody likes those."

"I don't ca- Frank, what's your deal? Get ready to CDG."

'No.'

"No? Whaddya mean no?"

'I'm Lawful-Good, this is against my alignment.'

"Against your align- we're WOLVES! Alignment Neutral!"

'That was the 3.0 MM, according to the SRD, no alignment is listed, so I picked LG.'

"Frank, buddy, we've got to talk. Seriously."



Really? Wolves lining up nice and orderly to CDG?

[Talion]

If they're going into mountainous terrain at any point you could hit them with a few of the following:

Mudslide
Avalanche
Altitude Sickness
Flash Flood
Bears (my group, which thinks nothing of epic level monsters, is terrified when I set mundane bears against them). Give'm a Will Buff if you want to make the Wild Empathy move harder.
Forest Fire
Stampeding Herd of Herbivores
Long winding trails that lead absolutely nowhere
Dangerously familiar scenery
Mosquitoes. LOTS of Mosquitoes. Especially near water.
Rock Slide
Ticks and Chiggers (nasty little things).

As for a less specific one: keep track of what they're eating. I've seen people become very ill over things such as....oh, let's go with a sodium overdose, combined with dehydration. Alternatively, malnutrition, which doesn't just have to be a lack of food, but would include a lack of the right foods (hello scurvy). It's not much, but a spell slot or two a day on curing mundane effects is a spell slot or two they're not using to bulldoze through anything difficult.

[Cwymbran-San]

Wolves should all just line up and coup de grace the party if they all fail perception checks.

That is not how a wolf pack hunts, not even one with rabid members. The circle you while coordinating their movements by howling - which as a side effect scares the usual prey to hell and back, forcing movement.

They are alone, without sophisticated weapons and armor, at least give them the small advantage of prep time ;-)

[Tuvarkz]

Bears (my group, which thinks nothing of epic level monsters, is terrified when I set mundane bears against them).

Is your setting Skyrim?
Regardless, some of these are slightly exaggerated, but should work.

[Platymus Pus]

...I had to pop it in a box, it was getting silly-long, but my thoughts on that are as follows.



"Ok, line up, nice and orderly, people. Ted! Ted, get at the end of the line!"

"But I'm hungry noowww!"

"No, you know the rules. Last in line, eats last."

"But mine is a gnome, nobody likes those."

"I don't ca- Frank, what's your deal? Get ready to CDG."

'No.'

"No? Whaddya mean no?"

'I'm Lawful-Good, this is against my alignment.'

"Against your align- we're WOLVES! Alignment Neutral!"

'That was the 3.0 MM, according to the SRD, no alignment is listed, so I picked LG.'

"Frank, buddy, we've got to talk. Seriously."



Really? Wolves lining up nice and orderly to CDG?
They'll go for the neck first, easy meal. :smallamused:

That is not how a wolf pack hunts, not even one with rabid members. The circle you while coordinating their movements by howling - which as a side effect scares the usual prey to hell and back, forcing movement.

They are alone, without sophisticated weapons and armor, at least give them the small advantage of prep time ;-)
The wolves would just likely leave them alone. N alignment. (http://www.wolf.org/wolf-info/basic-wolf-info/wolves-and-humans/whos-afraid-of-the-big-bad-wolf/) And you wonder why Druids get pissed off.
Wildlife just doesn't attack humans that much to begin with, humanoids would attack the party. Goblins, other humans, orcs, etc and they would most certainly CDG.
So in other words if they don't have at least two people on watch at all times. (so you know the one person watch doesn't get filled with arrows and dies to not warn everyone)
You're pretty much free to punish them.

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, hungry wolves may sneak up and try to drag one of them into the woods. I worry more about running into a random troll.

[nyjastul69]

A pretty simple method to help keep warm is to heat rocks before putting the fire out (you dont keep a fire burning all night unless it's a party ;))for the night and place them in the foot of your bedding.

[Flickerdart]

Food has always been a non-issue thanks to Survival and its "DC10 to feed a dude, +2 per dude" check. The skill says nothing about requiring a campfire or any means of preparing the food that would require you to remain stationary for any length of time.

Did you check with the PCs beforehand to make sure they were okay with playing Camping Simulator? Changing up the rules on them without warning ahead of time is kind of grody.

[Strigon]

I'd probably just force a single Fortitude save, base DC 8, with variable factors including dampness, wind, local geography, and of course base temperature for the night. If they fail, maybe they're considered Sickened? Although that's pretty harsh.
As for wildlife, IRL it wouldn't be a huge concern, but there are many beasts in D&D that aren't truly all that magical, but are certainly malevolent - Worgs, for example.

[Talion]

Is your setting Skyrim?
Regardless, some of these are slightly exaggerated, but should work.

A homebrew, actually. The party had to cross national borders without revealing what they were up to and, after almost getting executed at the first barrier station opted to take the longer, harder route to avoid detection. It was mountainous terrain either way, but their route was largely devoid of anything like civilization. Since it was early spring, and they were at considerable elevation, they ran into a snow storm and had to camp out in a cave for a couple days. They did stumble across a small mountain village a little while afterwards, after taking a shortcut by climbing up a cliff, where they encountered wolves and an apprentice necromancer with a few skeletons. Then of course about a week later later, while low on supplies and fatigued, and with an injured party member (a rogue with an abdominal wound from fleeing the town they briefly stopped in past the barrier station) there was the bear. Suffice to say they had some trouble.

They eventually made it to civilization again, but not after swearing off traveling through mountains like that ever again.

Basically, I suppose the take-away is that, when it comes to making mundane difficult to cope with, stacking circumstance modifiers are your friend.

[Ointhedwarf]

There are many ideas here, thanks guys. Although I'd like to point out that, I'm not intending to make them fight rain and cold instead of actual monsters/bandits and so on. I was actually aiming to make them feel at edge even between those encounters :smallbiggrin: And of course make the druid feel crucial after a long city-based session.


Did you check with the PCs beforehand to make sure they were okay with playing Camping Simulator? Changing up the rules on them without warning ahead of time is kind of grody.

I know what you mean and I also hate using tactics like those. But the group is actually one that gives a lot of attention to detail and realism so this something that they would have used in turn if they were the ones pursuing others. They would definitely argue about the fact that they should have been able to spot their campfire/torchlights in the distance, viewing the RAW intepretation that you suggest as the DM's over-protective way to save the baddies.


...I had to pop it in a box, it was getting silly-long, but my thoughts on that are as follows.

That was hilarious.


Is your setting Skyrim?
Regardless, some of these are slightly exaggerated, but should work.

Funny thing is that my setting is indeed Skyrim, well.. Morrowind but close enough XD