Dark catfolk rogue build in need of help

[Duppie]

hello i have been lurking in these forums for quite a while now and have benefited greatly from all the handbooks available, but for my current character i thought i would ask for some help.

so far i have a catfolk LA+1 (RotW) with the Dark LA+1 template (ToM)
stats:
STR: 10 +0
DEX: 22 +6
CON: 8 -1
INT: 16 +3
WIS: 15 +2
CHA: 15 +2

Rogue1/Fighter1/Swashbuckler3

For ACF's: Drow fighter (DotU)
So no heavy armor but +2 initiative and dex to damage if oponent is flat footed.

Swashbuckler Arcane Stunt (CM)
So grace is swapped for a Int+1 time use of expeditious retreat for 1 round as a swift action.

for feats i have picked
lvl 1 Craven (CoR)
fighter: Catfolk pounce (RotW)
lvl 3: Two weapon fighting

my DM has stated that he will allow me to still take Daring Outlaw even though i traded away grace,

my dm will allow LA buyoff and i am currently ahead by about 3/4 lvl so i will be doing so next level.

We are already in play so anything above can not be changed. furthermore my focus is more on the upcomming levels than what i will be at lvl 20.

now what is the problem? well i have no idea where to go from here,
around lvl 9 i will most likely take a lvl in swordsage for the assassin stance
daring outlaw will most likely be my next feat,
Shadow blade will most likely be taken as well,
and improved Two weapon fighting for obvious reasons

should a go into prestige? get rogue to lvl 4, and continue swashbuckler?

furthermore there is the question of items,
i currently have a smoking weapon to help the Hide in plain sight ability,

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you're going to take Daring Outlaw you should continue with Swashbuckler. There isn't much point to taking the feat otherwise. You should also go at least Rogue 3 to pick up the Penetrating Strike ACF to deal with Undead, Constructs, etc.

2 level of Monk can be fun for the Invisible Fist ACF. Immediate action invisibility is pretty good, especially with unlimited uses and the bonus feats don't hurt.
That aside you seem to be doing okay. I'd suggest getting Staggering Strike or something else to make your Sneak Attack do something besides just damage. Then just max UMD and collect scrolls and similar stuff to deal with the things damage isn't enough for.

[Nifft]

If you're going to take Daring Outlaw you should continue with Swashbuckler. Absolutely yes. Swashbuckler levels with Sneak Attack progression are like a dual-progression PrC... except you're not progressing anything as impressive as spellcasting. But yeah, you want more Swashbuckler levels.


2 level of Monk can be fun for the Invisible Fist ACF. Immediate action invisibility is pretty good, especially with unlimited uses and the bonus feats don't hurt. Two levels of Swordsage can get unlimited Invisibility, too, if you take them after at least 4 levels of other stuff.

[Duppie]

thanks for the reply's,

the reason i am not doing a real spellcaster is i have already done a wizard war weaver and a DMM cleric and a druid, after all that spellpower things just got too easy and you are on the edge of breaking the game.

the monk i dont think is worth it, it is two levels, and i already have hide in plain sight, pounce and a massive hide and move silently modifier. in combo with concealment from the smoking weapon i think there is no need to get actual invisibility,

Concerning the invisibility from Swordsage i guess you are referring to the Cloak of Deception, however i do not understand why i would need 2 levels of Swordsage for that, yes it is a 2nd lvl maneuver but you only need a initiator of lvl 3 for that, which is gotten with just 4 and only 1 lvl of Swordsage.

so the levels are pretty much set, now any advice on items? a decent high dex armor and stuff to boost HiPS and sneak attack?

[sleepyphoenixx]

People usually dip Swordsage 2 for the second stance, since you can only take first level stances at first level. It's a cheap +2d6 SA and Assassin's Stance also enables the Shadow Blade feat, so it's generally preferred over the first level stances.
It's also a cheap boost to AC that stacks with everything unless you dumped Wis and have no one to buff it, but that's not why people take it.

[Curmudgeon]

my dm will allow LA buyoff and i am currently ahead by about 3/4 lvl so i will be doing so next level.
With +2 LA and no racial HD your first chance to buy off 1 LA comes at class level 6, as you can see on the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

[Nifft]

Concerning the invisibility from Swordsage i guess you are referring to the Cloak of Deception, however i do not understand why i would need 2 levels of Swordsage for that

Oh, you don't need two levels. But level 2 is pretty great, since you get another Stance, and you get Wisdom to AC in Light armor.

See if you can take Swordsage level 2 when you'd have Initiator Level 5 so you can pick up Assassin's Stance for another +2d6 Sneak Attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Concerning the invisibility from Swordsage i guess you are referring to the Cloak of Deception, however i do not understand why i would need 2 levels of Swordsage for that, yes it is a 2nd lvl maneuver but you only need a initiator of lvl 3 for that, which is gotten with just 4 and only 1 lvl of Swordsage.
You need more than IL 3; you need to not be beginning play as a Swordsage, because you can only gain a 1st-level stance then.
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances.
And yes, "begin play" means the same thing for every class: 1st level in that class.

The "begin play" statement is part of the Class Features section of the Swordsage class. The Player's Handbook dictates the steps you follow whenever you attain a new class level on pages 58-59. Here are the instructions for the last step:

9. Class Features: Check your character’s class description in this chapter for any new capabilities your character may receive. Many characters gain special attacks or new special powers as they advance in levels.
On your first level in the Swordsage class, Stances Known is a new capability for your character. You follow the rule there (quoted above). Because the PH dictates that you only reference the Class Features section of a class when you attain a new level, you "begin play" in a class when that's new for your character: i.e., always at the first level in each class. As far as I know there is no global "begin play" in the rules; it's only a feature of individual classes. (If you can find a global "begin play" rule, do please bring it to my attention.)


The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) of your choice.
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice.
Spells Known: You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list.You don't begin as a 1st-level Bard, Sorcerer, or Duskblade with no known spells if you have previous character levels; the "Spells Known" entries for each of these classes specifies these at 1st level in the class, which is where you "begin play" regardless of previous character levels.
Bonus Feat: A wu jen begins play with a bonus metamagic feat. "Bonus feat" is a level 1 class feature of a Wu Jen. It applies regardless of character level.
You begin play with access to a mantle and its mantle power. "Mantle (1st)" is a level 1 class feature of a Divine Mind, irrespective of character level.
Powers Known: A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. 3 Powers Known is a 1st level Psion class feature, having nothing to do with character level.
A marshal begins play knowing one minor aura of his choice. As his marshal level increases, he gains access to new auras, as indicated on Table 1–5: The Marshal. "Minor Aura" is a level 1 class feature of a Marshal.
A vigilante’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A vigilante begins play knowing two 1st-level spells of his choice. Vigilante is a prestige class. It's impossible for you to "begin play" as a 1st level character.

The rules are entirely consistent, as far as my extensive searches can determine. Every time they use "begin play" in class descriptions, they're referring to 1st level in that class, and there's no dependency on character level.

[Duppie]

@Curmudgeon
about the level adjustment i am aware of that, lvl 3 swashbuckler plus one lvl of rogue and fighter equals five so as i said next level will be six, after that i'll have to wait till 9 class lvls total.

by the way Cloak of Deception is a Maneuver not a stance
but thanks for clearing up that stuff about begins play, i cant believe i have not seen a comment like this before to clear that up, it seems to be people were debating those rules every time i found a handbook but never a clear statement like this.
you might have over stated it a little with the amount of examples you have given but it does truly help make your point clear and i cant believe people have been confused about this when it was so obvious.

and i was going to take assassin stance so this was relevant for me, so i guess 2 levels of Swordsage it will be.

thanks!