Gestalt Wizard/Artificer [D&D 3.5]

[Gorkij]

I've recently started a new campaign ( D&D 3.5 system ). I am the most experienced player at the table and the only one wanting to play an arcane class. My group is made of : 3 Fighters ( two melee, one ranged ), 1 monk, 1 druid, 1 Rogue, 1 ranged ranger and me.
I am allowed to gestalt and I chose to take wizard to cover the lack of a caster member ( the druid is a new D&D player ) and artificer to craft for them.
I am allowed to use any books ( no magazines though ) and pick up flaws, from 2 to 5.
How can I optimize my character for this party? Shall I focus on supporting them and on transmutation/conjuration spells?

EDIT: Forgot to say that we are starting at level 1.

[Nerdguy88]

If you are allowed to use any books I would look into the specialization things. Maybe take wizard but take the fighter feat progression instead of the wizard feat progression - Combat Wizard (Unearthed Arcana, p 59).

I think Wizard/Artificer gestalt will be plenty powerful without the extra wizard feats. A lot of the fighter feats can be very useful. I would also look into some of the item creation cost reducing feats to save you some money.

Here are some good item creation feats:

Apprentice (Craftsman)
Extraordinary Artisan
Legendary Artisan

And if you have wants on you Cull Wand Essence is a great feat. It lets you burn a charge or two on the wand and deal energy damage with it. Nothing says "I'm an awesome wizard" like using a wand of cure light wounds to heal your ally then pointing it at an enemy and using it to shoot a beam of energy at them!

[avr]

A wizard will rapidly become more powerful than a fighter, rogue, monk, etc. Add an artificer gestalt on and it's just getting ridiculous. I'd rethink this idea; maybe one of the fighter types should be a warrior-smith and get the artificer gestalt instead?

[Nifft]

I see too much overlap between Wizard and Artificer.

Better synergy could come from:
- Warlock // Artificer
- Wizard // Rogue 5 / Chameleon (floating bonus feat = item creation feats during downtime)
- Wizard // Binder (with Asteroth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) for item creation feats)

Especially that top combo seems very appropriate for a low-OP inexperienced group. You'll always be effective, and you won't step on too many toes.

[Rebel7284]

Some ideas
- Metamagic feats are good for both the wizard side and the artificer side.
- Crafting cost reduction/time reduction feats are of course great.
- Having a psionic subtype would allow you to take feats to craft psionic items, and some of those are very good (psychoactive skin comes to mind.)
- A two level dip into Chameleon for the floating feat would give you ultimate flexibility. Sadly means delaying one of your progressions, but Artificer is good even with a two level delay.
- Plenty of amazing prestige classes that you can take on the wizard side, anything from War Weaver to multiply your actions in combat to Incantatrix for free metamagic.

[Gorkij]

A wizard will rapidly become more powerful than a fighter, rogue, monk, etc. Add an artificer gestalt on and it's just getting ridiculous. I'd rethink this idea; maybe one of the fighter types should be a warrior-smith and get the artificer gestalt instead?


Yeah, the wizard "power progression" is what made me pondering about this choice. We are currently playing a "tutorial" quest and i'm playing a warforged fighter/artificer gestalt that at level 1 could take my entire group alone ( I've also rolled pretty high numbers from the dice : 16 17 13 16 14 11 ) .
I do really like wizards though, fighters quickly bores me and creating magic items makes my imagination really shines.
Shall I re-roll stats again accepting only low scores?

[Nifft]

Yeah, the wizard "power progression" is what made me pondering about this choice. We are currently playing a "tutorial" quest and i'm playing a warforged fighter/artificer gestalt that at level 1 could take my entire group alone Artificers are badass.


Shall I re-roll stats again accepting only low scores? Anything you dislike about the Warlock // Artificer proposal? That's MUCH lower power than a Wizard, but has nice synergy (you're the best at UMD), and gives you a bunch of at-will powers which means you can concentrate your Infusions & gear on nova tactics.

[Ellowryn]

While yes your current combo is perhaps the single most powerful build you could make outside of TO, i don't think you should have to change it just because everyone else is either a newby or playing very low tier characters. I wholeheartedly agree with going support wizard and i recommend looking at Logic Ninja's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman) for some good tips and tricks, because nothing says "I'm Helping!" like making the rest of your team so much better than they normally are.

Also, are you going to be allowed to craft custom items? That also makes a big difference in how well you can support others.

As for the build, i recommend grabbing as many item crafting and metamagic feats as possible. Your ability to craft wands of any spell from any list and then add metamagic on the fly is going to be a great boon when it comes to buffing and BFC. Maybe think about going incatatrix for making the buffs you do cast from your wizard slots last all day.

[Gorkij]

While yes your current combo is perhaps the single most powerful build you could make outside of TO, i don't think you should have to change it just because everyone else is either a newby or playing very low tier characters. I wholeheartedly agree with going support wizard and i recommend looking at [---] for some good tips and tricks, because nothing says "I'm Helping!" like making the rest of your team so much better than they normally are.

Also, are you going to be allowed to craft custom items?That also makes a big difference in how well you can support others.

As for the build, i recommend grabbing as many item crafting and metamagic feats as possible. Your ability to craft wands of any spell from any list and then add metamagic on the fly is going to be a great boon when it comes to buffing and BFC. Maybe think about going incatatrix for making the buffs you do cast from your wizard slots last all day.

Yes, custom item crafting is possible. What's TO?

@Nifft Alignment problem and I don't know the warlock classes very well

[ZamielVanWeber]

- Warlock // Artificer.

I highly recommend this one (as long as you have crafting downtime). Warlock and Artificer cover the weaknesses of each class nicely and warlock quickly gives you Deceive Magic Item which the artifice not only values but cannot get an equivalent normally until 13.

[noob]

TO means theoric optimization basically it is any character who is so much awfully powerful that any sane GM should only shout a clear "NO" when you speak of his build and that he hears you deal a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^ a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^ a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^a^ a^a^a^a^a^a damage per turn with a=100^100.

[ExLibrisMortis]

TO is Theoretical Optimization, that is, optimization not intended to see actual play, like Pun-Pun.

For a low-key wizard/artificer, I'd say, prepare a whole bunch of different niche utility spells (knock and the like), and use a limited form of spontaneous casting (Spontaneous Divination ACF, Signature Spell feat, Dweomerkeeper Mantle of Spells) to get general-purpose damaging spells, like orb of force. On your artificer side, craft your party useful-but-boring items like Cloaks of Resistance and Belts of Giant Strength and whatnot. Optimize for low magic item costs, long-term party buffs and extreme versatility.

[Gorkij]

Thanks everyone.
I had to re-roll my stats for the new character, gestalt wizard/artificer warforged. I was allowed to take 3 flaws.
Here's my stats now ( race modifiers already applied):
Str- 10 Dex- 13 Cos- 18 Int -16 Wis - 9 Cha- 10
Feats taken (1 + 3 from flaws ) : Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Initiative, Spell Focus ( Conjuration ) , Spell Focus ( Transmutation )

[Rebel7284]

Thanks everyone.
I had to re-roll my stats for the new character, gestalt wizard/artificer warforged. I was allowed to take 3 flaws.
Here's my stats now ( race modifiers already applied):
Str- 10 Dex- 13 Cos- 18 Int -16 Wis - 9 Cha- 10
Feats taken (1 + 3 from flaws ) : Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Initiative, Spell Focus ( Conjuration ) , Spell Focus ( Transmutation )

Why those feats? The Spell Focuses in particular seem very very weak. Did you decide on the future progression?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It sounds like preparation for entry into Archmage, and the low-level feat slots are good for feats that have no prerequisites.

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks everyone.
I had to re-roll my stats for the new character, gestalt wizard/artificer warforged. I was allowed to take 3 flaws.
Here's my stats now ( race modifiers already applied):
Str- 10 Dex- 13 Cos- 18 Int -16 Wis - 9 Cha- 10
Feats taken (1 + 3 from flaws ) : Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Initiative, Spell Focus ( Conjuration ) , Spell Focus ( Transmutation )

As a warforged, you are eligible for wand bonding from City of Stormreach. It allows you to sacrifice an arcane spell slot or infusion slot of the level of the spell to be cast from the wand (or a higher level) instead of using one of the charges in the wand. In addition to powering the wand, this increases the caster level of the effect by one for every five caster levels you possess. Which you can take as an artificer feat...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Thanks everyone.
I had to re-roll my stats for the new character, gestalt wizard/artificer warforged. I was allowed to take 3 flaws.
Here's my stats now ( race modifiers already applied):
Str- 10 Dex- 13 Cos- 18 Int -16 Wis - 9 Cha- 10
Feats taken (1 + 3 from flaws ) : Skill Focus (UMD), Improved Initiative, Spell Focus ( Conjuration ) , Spell Focus ( Transmutation )

Bad news: that neutral Cha is going to be painful for a while. Even with Skill Focus UMD you will be struggling. At 1st level you will need an 18 to activate the scroll.
Good news: being a wizard opens up your options on the wand front.
Worse news: Artificer scrolls are neither Arcane nor Divine and always require a UMD roll to activate.

If it is possible I would suggest putting the 12 from Cha into Con and the 16 from Con into Cha. That will put both at 14. Your HP will be fine for the most part (ideally you shouldn't be mixing it up in combat) and this will give you some breathing room on scroll activation.

[Gorkij]

Ok, I have yet to write my stats on paper :) I will modify them accordingly.

@Others I mainly use Transmutation and Conjuration, it being a low-level campaign I find even a +1 increased DC important. Any suggestion for other feats?
I did not know about wand bonding. Where I can find it?

[daremetoidareyo]

Ok, I have yet to write my stats on paper :) I will modify them accordingly.

@Others I mainly use Transmutation and Conjuration, it being a low-level campaign I find even a +1 increased DC important. Any suggestion for other feats?
I did not know about wand bonding. Where I can find it?

It's a Feat from city of stormreach (Eberron) somewhere around page 110 or so.

[TheifofZ]

Ok, I have yet to write my stats on paper :) I will modify them accordingly.

@Others I mainly use Transmutation and Conjuration, it being a low-level campaign I find even a +1 increased DC important. Any suggestion for other feats?
I did not know about wand bonding. Where I can find it?

The best selection of Conjuration spells don't actually include saves. Transmutation has a solid selection that do, so that choice isn't terrible.
Improved Initiative is an always-good level 1 feat if you don't have any you need to take for PrC entry or build purposes.
What, exactly, do you want your spell-list to focus on, since we're avoiding TO and going for a lower-power build?
As well, what PrCs did you have in mind?

Edit: Grabbing meta-magic feats early might hurt early on, but they can also be used to fill out feat slots at low levels, and almost always come in handy by mid/late game. They are generally not going to do anything for you pre-5 without Divine Metamagic, though.

[Rebel7284]

I would recommend starting with the feats that reduce the cost of crafting in terms of GP/XP/time and then going for metamagic feats in later levels. Sure the +1 DC you get for a school is nice for a level or two, but it quickly gets left behind when compared to multiplying the effectiveness of your whole party with your crafting.

Edit: also, crafting items that give you +Int earlier would boost the DC for all your spells.

[Nifft]

So... as a Warforged, you have inherent spell failure from your Composite Plating, right?

Are you just going to suck it up and roll every time you cast? That would not be acceptable for me personally, but it's certainly one way to ensure you're lower-power than a typical Wizard.

(If you were going for Beguiler // Artificer or Warlock // Artificer then I'd suggest picking Mithral Plating, but a Wizard wouldn't like that quite as much.)

[Gorkij]

So... as a Warforged, you have inherent spell failure from your Composite Plating, right?

Are you just going to suck it up and roll every time you cast? That would not be acceptable for me personally, but it's certainly one way to ensure you're lower-power than a typical Wizard.

(If you were going for Beguiler // Artificer or Warlock // Artificer then I'd suggest picking Mithral Plating, but a Wizard wouldn't like that quite as much.)

Our DM let us ignore spell failure when is extremely low ( 5% in my case ), so no big deal :) .

@others I am level 3 now and i can possibly retrain feats. I am mainly the party buffer/controller.
I have, now, as class features: Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions, Create Wondrous Items. And up to 5 feats ( 2 for levels + 3 from flaws) . My UMD is pretty high now ( for scrolls, thanks to skill sinergy).
Shall i grab creation feats and metamagic feats asap?

[DMVerdandi]

Our DM let us ignore spell failure when is extremely low ( 5% in my case ), so no big deal :) .

@others I am level 3 now and i can possibly retrain feats. I am mainly the party buffer/controller.
I have, now, as class features: Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions, Create Wondrous Items. And up to 5 feats ( 2 for levels + 3 from flaws) . My UMD is pretty high now ( for scrolls, thanks to skill sinergy).
Shall i grab creation feats and metamagic feats asap?

Just reading this whole thread, and it's good that you decided to go wizard//artificer.
This is what I would do.

On the crafting metamagic thing, I say yes. The sooner the better. as far as metamagic goes, probably start off with extend spell and persistent spell, then move to quicken, heighten, and one that alters damage (enhance is probably best).


As far as crafting, scrolls, wands and wonderous items are probably best. That is the foundation.

[ZamielVanWeber]

As far as crafting, scrolls, wands and wonderous items are probably best. That is the foundation.

Be careful with scrolls. Because artificer scrolls must be UMD'd and have the highest DCs of any magic item they are less than reliable.

I would recommend investing in a masterwork tool of Use Magic Device. Ever bonus counts.