Losing PrC prereqs after gaining replacement via prestige class?

[gadren]

I have a player in my group who is playing an Sorcerer/Rogue/Unseen Seer.
He wants to retrain one of the divination spells he knows to an evocation spell, a spell he pretty much only learned to qualify for the PrC. He would still meet the minimum number of divination spells to qualify for the PrC, but only because of the bonus divination spells granted by the PrC.

I'm allowing it either way, but Inwas curious, by RAW, is this allowed, or would it cause him to lose access to the prestige class?

[ZamielVanWeber]

As long as he fills the prerequisite he is good. Using class features to fill their own prerequisites is a time honored tradition (and a fairly important trick with initiators).

Note that if he failed to fill the requisites at all he may still keep his class features. That is debatable and he side steps the issue entirely here.

[Psyren]

This one is tricky - PHB2 says to retrain, you must "not only meet the requirements in your current state, but you must also be able to show that you met them previously." But that line refers to feat and class feature requirements, not spells.

I'd say the intent is that you can't swap out things you used to qualify for other things, but since this case is referring to spells you could make an argument that it doesn't count.

[gadren]

This one is tricky - PHB2 says to retrain, you must "not only meet the requirements in your current state, but you must also be able to show that you met them previously." But that line refers to feat and class feature requirements, not spells.

I'd say the intent is that you can't swap out things you used to qualify for other things, but since this case is referring to spells you could make an argument that it doesn't count.

Well he's not using PHB2 retraining, just the standard sorcerer class feature that allows retraining of spells known. Don't know if that makes a difference.

[nedz]

By RAW he can do this.

The RAW on whether he looses the class features of the PrC if he no longer qualifies for this is much debated.

In one of the Completes, Warrior I think, the rule stripping of the class features, should he no longer qualify, appears. There has been much debate, the length and breadth of the internet, as to whether this rule applies to all PrCs, or just the one in that book. You have to make your own mind up, sorry.

[Troacctid]

By RAW he can do this.

The RAW on whether he looses the class features of the PrC if he no longer qualifies for this is much debated.

Not in this case. He's learned new divination spells since then, so he still qualifies. If he swapped away enough spells that he no longer had the required two, we might have a discussion on our hands, but I think he's well in the clear here.

[Nifft]

As long as he's qualified at every level, I'd have no issues with it.

[gadren]

By RAW he can do this.

The RAW on whether he looses the class features of the PrC if he no longer qualifies for this is much debated.

In one of the Completes, Warrior I think, the rule stripping of the class features, should he no longer qualify, appears. There has been much debate, the length and breadth of the internet, as to whether this rule applies to all PrCs, or just the one in that book. You have to make your own mind up, sorry.

Well, I've always assumed that is applies to all PrCs, my question was more in regards to what happens if you lose what originally met the pre-reqs but by that point have gained something from the PrC that meets the pre-req in its place.

EDIT: wow, ninja'd twice!

[nedz]

Not in this case. He's learned new divination spells since then, so he still qualifies. If he swapped away enough spells that he no longer had the required two, we might have a discussion on our hands, but I think he's well in the clear here.

Ah, I missed that detail. Seems like he's OK then — but it's still worth mentioning the issue for future reference.

Ed: (to avoid double post - double ninjas isn't something I can do anything about)

Well, I've always assumed that is applies to all PrCs, my question was more in regards to what happens if you lose what originally met the pre-reqs but by that point have gained something from the PrC that meets the pre-req in its place

He did qualify, before entry
He has always qualified
He still qualifies

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, I've always assumed that is applies to all PrCs, my question was more in regards to what happens if you lose what originally met the pre-reqs but by that point have gained something from the PrC that meets the pre-req in its place.

As long as they are filled they are filled. It doesn't matter how. He had Divination A and B going in so he qualified. He then got divination C and then traded out divination B so he has divination A and C. Still 2 so he is fine regardless of how you follow that rule.

[Nifft]

Instead of using the Retraining rules, I'd probably just allow every Sorcerer to trade spells in at every even caster level, even if it's a PrC which grants that caster level.

[gadren]

Ok, well, everyone seems to be in agreement on the OP. But this had made me think of a weirder hypothetical situation, now.

So, say a depraved Wizard 3/Cleric 1 enter the Mystic Theurge prestige class via the Mad Faith feat (you gain the ability to cast one second level divine spell per day as long as you have moderate Depravity). After they've become a Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 2 they are cleansed of their Depravity. They no longer gain the benefit of the Mad Faith feat, but did have the ability to cast 2nd level cleric spells from the two MT levels.

Do they lose all benefits of Mystic Theurge until they take two levels in cleric?

[ZamielVanWeber]

They can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells so they are fine. Exact same scenario: the PrC is filling it's own prerequisite.

[Necroticplague]

I see nothing wrong with that. At no point do you not qualify for the PRC you have, so you should be good. At one point, you used a crutch. With that crutch, you eventually learned to walk normally, at which point you no longer needed it.

[bean illus]

He did qualify, before entry
He has always qualified
He still qualifies


The thread title made me think "uhhhhh, no?" But the criteria above by nedz feels pretty legit.

[Crake]

Instead of using the Retraining rules, I'd probably just allow every Sorcerer to trade spells in at every even caster level, even if it's a PrC which grants that caster level.

that's already the case. The sorcerer's ability to retrain spells every even level is something that comes from their spellcasting ability, which is advanced by prestige classes, meaning they would give the same option ever even level, which is exactly what the OP wants to do.

[Chronos]

Both Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane have rules about losing prerequisites for PrCs, but they're different rules. Both books have the same amount of claim to primacy, so which one applies? Further, Complete Divine, yet another book with the same claim to primacy, has a prestige class which cannot function at all if either rule is applied to it, as it takes away one of its own prerequisites at the very first level. The only sane interpretation is that the rules in CW and CAr only apply to classes from those two books.