XCOM enemy within again

[Avilan the Grey]

Finally decided to FINISH THE BLOODY GAME before XCOM 2 comes out (Also, I have a new gaming computer now so I lost all my saves). So now I am splitting my time with this, Blood Bowl 2 and Crusader Kings 2.
Just playing on Normal now, but with Not Created Equal and Save Scum on. I could handle Classical, but I just don't have the patience for it.

Now... Is it just me, or do all Swedish character's have Danish surnames? I always have to rename them.

[Sharoth]

Good luck. My new computer just came in and I will be installing this and the Long War mod.

[Cespenar]

Now... Is it just me, or do all Swedish character's have Danish surnames? I always have to rename them.

Are they supposed to be different? :smalltongue:

Anywho, I heard the expansion was quite good. As someone who thought the original game's length was just spot on, should I try Enemy Within?

[Knaight]

Are they supposed to be different? :smalltongue:

Anywho, I heard the expansion was quite good. As someone who thought the original game's length was just spot on, should I try Enemy Within?

Sure. It doesn't really make it much longer, it just adds a touch of variety. Just don't try Long War.

[factotum]

Yeah, Enemy Within mainly adds a bunch of extra maps and some additional enemy types--it definitely improves on the variety in the game. (Also, there's a base invasion in EW that I don't recall happening in EU?).

[Triaxx]

Base Invasion was definitely EW only.

I was very good at EU, but for some reason I'm very, very bad at EW. Can't figure out why though.

[McNum]

Sure. It doesn't really make it much longer, it just adds a touch of variety. Just don't try Long War.
I'm playing a game of Long War, although with another mod to return the air game closer to vanilla and some others to make it a little easier.

Long War is looooong. I'm in May and I just had a fight with UFO-17. And I'm currently looking to expand to a second continent from North America. just can't pick which one of Asia, South America, or Europe. Still, the additional classes and items are fun. But it's really, really long.

[Avilan the Grey]

Are they supposed to be different? :smalltongue:

Anywho, I heard the expansion was quite good. As someone who thought the original game's length was just spot on, should I try Enemy Within?

I find it enjoyable. The MELD is annoying at times, because if you lack it, it forces you to take risks. Risks suck.

To my shame I never finished the game after buying all the DLCs (meaning I did finish the vanilla game). That's why I am playing it now. Well, it's also fun.

[Brother Oni]

Are they supposed to be different? :smalltongue:

Apparently Swedish is supposed to sound like you have a potato in your mouth after drinking 8 beers... (http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson) :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

Apparently Swedish is supposed to sound like you have a potato in your mouth after drinking 8 beers... (http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson) :smalltongue:

Um no. That's DANISH.

On a more serious note, if a surname ends with a -sen, it's Danish (or maybe Norwegian). Swedish surnames ends with -son, not -sen.

[factotum]

Um no. That's DANISH.

According to the linked strip, Danish only needs the potato in the mouth...it's the 8 beers that turn it into Swedish. :smallsmile:

[Aotrs Commander]

Apparently Swedish is supposed to sound like you have a potato in your mouth after drinking 8 beers... (http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson) :smalltongue:

Am I a bad person for finding the funniest part of that (already funny) strip was the wall of cereal boxes in the last panel?

(Yes, but we all knew that already.)

[Eldan]

Without EW, you miss out on the mecha rocket punch. That would be sad.

Edit: and the whale mission in Newfoundland. That effing whale mission.

[Triaxx]

Bah, the whale was easy. Skeleton armored supports. Easy peasy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bah, the whale was easy. Skeleton armored supports. Easy peasy.

CQB assaults with scatter lasers work quite nicely as well.

EW also get squadsight snipers with Thin Man jumping. Skeleton armor? We don' need no steenkin' skeleton armor. Assault with Mimetic Skin + Alloy Cannon. Say good night, anything in the game. And because he doesn't need stealth suit, he can just go Titan Armor and also not have to worry about running through thin man clouds or explosions.

[Ailurus]

TBH, my favorite thing about EW is just EXPLOSIONS, EXPLOSIONS EVERYWHERE! Between tactical rigging letting everyone carry at least one grenade, mechs with collateral damage (not really an explosion, but same effect) and grenade launchers, and Heavies being able to cause 7 explosions per battle, everything just gets turned to dust and my sniper(s) can In The Zone whatever survives with no issue.

[GloatingSwine]

According to the linked strip, Danish only needs the potato in the mouth...it's the 8 beers that turn it into Swedish. :smallsmile:

And then you sing it and it turns into Norwegian.

(Nothing turns into Finnish, but you do need all the extra vowels that Welsh isn't using)

[Eldan]

Bah, the whale was easy. Skeleton armored supports. Easy peasy.

The first time that mission showed up for me, it was, hm, significantly earlier. As in, laser rifles and carapace armour were the big new thing.

[Triaxx]

True, but with the 6 tiles of extra movement (Skeleton armor + Sprinter) mean supports can more or less out run Chrysalids.

First time, I still had conventional guns, though I did have Reaper Rounds. (It was just after the first terror mission.)

[Avilan the Grey]

I didn't have that much problems with the Whale the one time I played that mission.
I even stayed for like 25 rounds overwatching the hole pot-shotting alien-ripoffs.
When I started running, however, I was glad to have the punchy mech; we almost got caught up with, but her punch arm and huge move-allowance made it possible to just turn around, punch the bug to squishy bits then catch up with the others.

[Knaight]

The first time that mission showed up for me, it was, hm, significantly earlier. As in, laser rifles and carapace armour were the big new thing.

That's when it showed up for me as well, in Long War. It wasn't that hard, but that was mostly because I abused the heck out of shotguns.

[Avilan the Grey]

Observations so far:

1. I have lost India and Brazil. As it looks right now I will not lose anything else.
2. Normal is... SLIIIIGHTLY too easy. Classic is, beatable, with my skill level, but tedious enough to be boring. So Normal it is.

[Eldan]

I know what you mean. This thread got me playing again. I lost China (though with new economy, it's not much of a loss, they were incredibly cheap.). And for me, too, classic is a bit too tedious and normal too easy. I'm especially noting it against EXALT. I almost pity them, as I'm sending mechs with railguns and mimetic-skinned, laser-armoured, skeleton-armoured troops against guys in suits with assault rifles. They get slaughtered left and right in droves.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Observations so far:

1. I have lost India and Brazil. As it looks right now I will not lose anything else.
2. Normal is... SLIIIIGHTLY too easy. Classic is, beatable, with my skill level, but tedious enough to be boring. So Normal it is.

South America is kinda... quirky. On the one hand, only two nations to take the continent bonus. On the other hand, the continent bonus, while useful, is MOST useful very early game. However, it's weak enough that it isn't worth taking when compared to North America or Africa or Asia.

It's also kind of a trap, because it tempts you to use your first two satellites to pick it up right away, in the first or second month, where the bonus is most useful to you. However, doing that prevents you from using satellites as band-aids on panic for other nations, because you'll also need the arrays to support the sats.

Having said that, if you feel Normal is a bit too easy but Classic is too tedious, and you want something to do to make Normal a bit more... interesting, pick up South America with your first satellites. You'll never have to worry about waiting for an interrogation or autopsy again (which can mean delaying those researches until you get the continent bonus), but you're going to have to be FAR more careful about panic and most likely will select missions not because of their rewards but because of panic levels.

[Avilan the Grey]

Canada is in the balance right now...

Btw, why all the heavies! I don't NEED any more heavies!!!

Also... Only two terror missions so far... weird.
Which means I am now to the point that when the second one finally came, it is so much easier because No Crysalids. Only cyberdiscs and floaters. And that is so much easy to handle (and far less creepy).

[Eldan]

Well, my first terror mission was actually, well, a bit of a joke. It had two Chrysalids, right at the beginning, who fell before they could spawn any more, and then just a series of sectoids and thin men.

[Triaxx]

I lost my first terror mission, because I got nothing but Chrysalids, and they spawned up alongside the civilians. I saved one person. By accident.

[Cespenar]

I think Normal Ironman or Classic Savescum would be the way to go.

[Avilan the Grey]

I did read somewhere that terror missions have a higher chance of popping up when you are about to lose a country, it's the game's way of giving you a chance: "Beat this and I'll lower the panic level for you".

I am slightly disappointed with my roster. I sacked my only Swedish soldier; he had an aim of 55. (I play with "not created equal").
I do have twin French Canadian brothers though.
By coincidence; Two of my starting characters had french names, from canada and turned out to become heavies. I couldn't resist editing them to give the same looks, voice and family name.

Now they are both MECs.

Btw, collecting MELD is so easy with punchy MECs.. All that movement...

[Triaxx]

I always figured that's what Council Missions were for since they lower panic universally.

[Grif]

I always figured that's what Council Missions were for since they lower panic universally.

They do? I thought they had very specific rewards?

The one thing I do know that lower panic universally is storming the alien base. Timed right, you can shave 2 panic off every country. Very useful as a last-ditch option and you're not in a very great hurry to be taking prisoners. (Some like to prepare for the alien base guaranteed sectoid commander.)

[Triaxx]

You're right. It's one point from the entire continent. I'm talking the generic rescue a friend of the council missions, not the DLC or Exalt missions. Those have specific rewards.

[Krade]

So thanks to this thread, I started another game a couple days ago. Playing on Normal like I know I probably shouldn't by now but whatever.

Full satellite coverage by the end of June. A Firestorm (with EMP) on each continent by the end of July. Heavy Plasmas and Snipers. Titan and Archangel armors researched (none made because I've had no cash since the research completed). One fully upgraded MEC (Support focused on survivability and squad defense/healing). And still haven't been to the alien base yet.

I should be playing on Classic.

By the way, I've never progressed my research this far before the alien base. I bring it up because, for some reason, Ghost Armor isn't available to research. Is there another research requirement (that's isn't in the main weapon or armor line) for that or is it just hard locked until after the base?

[Leon]

Only time ive not done the Whale Mission was when i played LW, started mission and soon after met a Chrysalid larger than the warehouse you start near and it was a case of nopenopenope back to to the Evac.

[Avilan the Grey]

I am thinking of starting over because well... the most shallow of reasons: I want a Swedish soldier. Preferably a woman.

[Leon]

I am thinking of starting over because well... the most shallow of reasons: I want a Swedish soldier. Preferably a woman.

Sister Sweden?

[Avilan the Grey]

Sister Sweden?

Nah... More like Inga meets Fem!Shep :smallbiggrin:

Btw... I am thinking of activating both Not Created Equal and Hidden Potential.
Now... Is Marathon worth it? The Long War seems like a hassle to install and I am not interested in a vast majority of the features.

[Krade]

Nah... More like Inga meets Fem!Shep :smallbiggrin:

Btw... I am thinking of activating both Not Created Equal and Hidden Potential.
Now... Is Marathon worth it? The Long War seems like a hassle to install and I am not interested in a vast majority of the features.

I played Marathon one time. It doesn't really add anything. It just drags it all out. The nicest thing about it is that, since everything takes so long, you rarely have issues with not enough alloy/elerium/fragments.

Edit: Marathon is also the only time I might suggest starting in SA. With research times doubled, getting those interrogations (and therefore research credits) instantly is a massive boost.

[Toastkart]

By the way, I've never progressed my research this far before the alien base. I bring it up because, for some reason, Ghost Armor isn't available to research. Is there another research requirement (that's isn't in the main weapon or armor line) for that or is it just hard locked until after the base?

That's because researching ghost armor, for some reason, requires hyperwave communication. Which you can't get until you come back from the alien base.


For me, I keep starting playthroughs and then stopping halfway in because I start to get bored. I want something more challenging, not harder. Classic's increase to enemy aim and crit chance doesn't make the game more challenging, just harder. I tried out long war, and it was nice for a while, but once you get to laser weapons and skeleton armor, it's basically the same, just harder, not more challenging. And the changes to base building were just tedious.

[Vitruviansquid]

That's because researching ghost armor, for some reason, requires hyperwave communication. Which you can't get until you come back from the alien base.


For me, I keep starting playthroughs and then stopping halfway in because I start to get bored. I want something more challenging, not harder. Classic's increase to enemy aim and crit chance doesn't make the game more challenging, just harder. I tried out long war, and it was nice for a while, but once you get to laser weapons and skeleton armor, it's basically the same, just harder, not more challenging. And the changes to base building were just tedious.

I've found Xcom's progression to be fairly uninspired because just about the only thing to always meaningfully change as the game goes on is the aliens sometimes come up with a new, weird type. Your soldiers may get extra perks, but those don't really affect the game enough to feel good, and new technology just largely increases your numbers without forcing you to adapt to different modes of warfare. I think it would've been very cool if each level of technology made certain of your guns work in slightly different ways, like if the scatter laser was balanced for higher range and less damage than a shotgun should have for its tier, and the alloy cannon had an accuracy penalty but a hefty damage boost for a shotgun of its tier.

[Eldan]

Long War is weird. I just lost support from France during my first month, with no indication that anything was wrong there.

[nightwyrm]

It's hardwired to lose a country in the beginning. You have to lose a country for the alien base to show up.

[Avilan the Grey]

Marathon it isn't.
Reason? forgot that i had not cleared the game on Normal on this computer, and no old savegames left.

But started over anyway picking Not Created Equal and Unknown Potential. And Savescumming.

I am not doing Iron Man, but I am self-restriction of only saving at the start of every mission and if I fail I am allowed to start over, but have to replay everything in the mission. Also, starting in Asia instead of Africa.

[Triaxx]

That's how I've always done it, aside a few things that were supremely annoying, but it take something truly frustrating to make a reload like that. Like the bloody Uber Ethereal instagibbing the entire team because it saw me from across the map. How, I still haven't figured out.

[Krade]

That reminds me of the one time I mind controlled a Floater in the last mission and launched it to the final room with the Uber Ethereal. Poor thing couldn't handle it and the whole game crashed:smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

So dammit...
I kept restarting until I got myself a Swedish female soldier.

So, I give you Jessika Pihl, sniper extraordinaire with 80 aim right off the bat.

[Leon]

Nice. Reminds me of a sniper i had in the last play through. He was nigh on unstoppable (Went into the last Mission on 144 kills in 37 missions) up until the two Sectopod fight in the last mission when he was hit with 3 charges from the Cluster bomb*. Salute to Moshe "Loki" Malcah.


* I play on Ironman these days so bad things stick

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking of nicknames... Some of the default ones are good, some at least fits a little... some are just... weird.

[thorgrim29]

My favourite nickname was a support from India named Metha whose nickname was Magic Man. He was my first psychic soldier and the sacrifice.

[Rakaydos]

The first time I did the whale mission, I discovered that "winning" by returning to the extraction point saves soldiers that are bleeding out, OUTSIDE the extraction point.

[Leon]

Speaking of nicknames... Some of the default ones are good, some at least fits a little... some are just... weird.

Very first time i played and my first colonel ended up with "Septic" as her Nickname

[Cristo Meyers]

Very first time i played and my first colonel ended up with "Septic" as her Nickname

At least she wasn't a Support Medic...

The only weird one that I didn't create myself (and that I can remember) was a Support that ended up with the nickname Santa.

[Leon]

She was an Assault, the next Colonel was a Support who started the "Vita" line, Ive had some amazing Vita's except for the unfortunate one that happened to turn up in a marathon game

[Triaxx]

My first Nickname was a Danger Zone/Shredder Rocket heavy. Nickname Santa. Couldn't stop laughing at that one for a long while.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My first Nickname was a Danger Zone/Shredder Rocket heavy. Nickname Santa. Couldn't stop laughing at that one for a long while.

Fitting. Expert at delivering large packages to distant locations.

[Krade]

So I decided to give Classic Ironman a serious shot for the first time ever.

I am... not good at this. Consistent squad wipes at the hands of Thin Men. The initial EXALT mission kills me on Classic, every time. Four times in a row, I activate Seekers and move everyone together and overwatch. Immediately afterwards, a group of Floaters (who were previously unseen) show up and set off everyone's reaction shot. THEN the Seekers strangle someone with impunity while there's still Floaters to deal with at the same time.

[Cristo Meyers]

So I decided to give Classic Ironman a serious shot for the first time ever.

I am... not good at this. Consistent squad wipes at the hands of Thin Men. The initial EXALT mission kills me on Classic, every time. Four times in a row, I activate Seekers and move everyone together and overwatch. Immediately afterwards, a group of Floaters (who were previously unseen) show up and set off everyone's reaction shot. THEN the Seekers strangle someone with impunity while there's still Floaters to deal with at the same time.

I always found Classic to be just on the wrong side of too hard. I can get behind a challenge, but I could just never get Classic to work and still be entertaining. Which is a shame, since Normal Ironman is the exact opposite: just the wrong side of too easy.

I get that Classic is where the game stops loading the dice in your favor, but it just never felt fun and especially never felt like 'as close to the original as we could do.'

[Artanis]

Classic is where the game stops loading the dice in your favor
I think part of the problem is that in addition to this, Classic also starts loading the dice in favor of the enemy. The most blatant one is that everything* gets +10 Aim and +10 Crit, but there's also stuff like several enemies (including Thin Men) getting bonus HP and a few aliens getting damage boosts.



*Sectoids only get the +10 Crit.

[Avilan the Grey]

Indeed.

Normal is SLIIIGHTLY balanced in your favor. Mostly because the AI is limited to 6(?) enemies moving per turn (AFAIR), so even if there are more in play, they won't do anything constructive. Also they stumble into Overwatch a slightly easier than they should, and avoid flanking you sometimes though they really could.
However, the health of enemies and your squad is considered "what it's supposed to be" as well as other things.

Classic on the other hand "completely" unshackles the AI (still within limitations of course, like the aliens not being able to see through fog of war) but adjust other parameters in favor of the enemy.
There is no fully "balanced" option (basically should be "Normal" but with unshackled AI).

As I have said before I agree that Classic is doable but annoying, while Normal is slightly too easy but far more fun than Classic.

I do find Thin men rather easy though. Unless you are pressing on too quickly (they are annoying on timed missions and if you desperately need both Meld containers on a map). Just Overwatch better than they do, and preferably bring two snipers with squad sight.

[nightwyrm]

For those having trouble with Classic, are you guys regularly using explosives? Trading shots is a loser's game. You either blow up the alien's cover and shoot his naked ass or you break LOS and retreat to a defensible position you've already cleared and let the aliens come to you.

[Abemad]

For those having trouble with Classic, are you guys regularly using explosives? Trading shots is a loser's game. You either blow up the alien's cover and shoot his naked ass or you break LOS and retreat to a defensible position you've already cleared and let the aliens come to you.

That made the difference for me as well... That and the fact that you can out tech the enemy at times - laser and carapace + MEC's until they field mechtoids, plasma and bigger armor until they field sectopods...



But that first council mission against all those thin men without any tech... sheesh

[Avilan the Grey]

For those having trouble with Classic, are you guys regularly using explosives? Trading shots is a loser's game. You either blow up the alien's cover and shoot his naked ass or you break LOS and retreat to a defensible position you've already cleared and let the aliens come to you.

For me it's not "having problems with" as much as "being annoyed by".

[endur]

I really like this game series. I really liked the extra missions EW added, the extra options were ok.

The hardest part for me is if the difficulty level (whatever it is) sends hard missions at me faster than my guys can become healthy to handle them. Its sort of a budgeting question on how many countries will I lose before I get satellite cover up on the remaining countries. Once satellite cover is up, the situation stabilizes, new techs start to flow in, and it becomes easy to win the game.

Difficulty level also seems to imply just how defensive your guys have to be when scouting for enemies. At higher difficulty levels, you have to be very careful in advancing into enemy areas (never want to scout after all your other squad members have moved, etc.).

Also for those having issues with difficulty levels of classic and above, there are you tube lets play videos showing the higher difficulty levels.

On the higher difficulty levels, prior to upgraded armor and weapons, my attrition rate for squaddies is close to 100%, but once upgraded gear comes on line, squaddies start surviving for the long term. (Chrysalids vs. basic squaddies, ouch).

[Vitruviansquid]

The most blatant one is that everything* gets +10 Aim


Trading shots is a loser's game

nightwyrm's advice is spot on. You should definitely be using grenades all the time because that +10 base Aim Artanis is talking about is more powerful in low hit percentage situations. If all units are standing in full cover, a +10 Aim will turn 25% chance to hit into 35% chance to hit, which makes the alien almost half again as strong as they were.

You absolutely must end engagements as soon as possible on the higher difficulty levels.

[Avilan the Grey]

So... I know it is entirely different if you play Ironman, and also on higher difficulties, but I still feel, on normal, that you bring the same soldiers 95% of the time. Having a team of 6 (or in my case 5 and one MEC kernel) gen-modded kernels and one or two "spares" is basically all you need. Oh and that Chinese dude that is supposed to be badass is fairly mediocre compared to my other three heavies. Plus I don't like to use him since you can't change his hair... And all kernels in my game are wearing berets.

Also, I have been wondering... did they cut down the number of terror missions in Enemy Within, or are they more common on Classic?

[Triaxx]

I typically have two or three guys that almost always go, and then the rest rotate between two or three groups. Makes Base Defense easier, plus I occasionally bring along a SHIV, if only because sometimes I just know I'm going to need the extra cover. (Always Alloy, Hover's suck.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For Long War, I always have at least two core groups available, with a third-string group built up as soon as I can. My goal isn't to top-end the tech tree so much as have a bunch of people that have their second and third skills. Fatigue is a thing that happens, and you WILL get things like a landed UFO one day before your covert ops needs to be recovered, or you get a terror mission then you get a shot-down UFO within a day.

[Rakaydos]

For Long War, I always have at least two core groups available, with a third-string group built up as soon as I can. My goal isn't to top-end the tech tree so much as have a bunch of people that have their second and third skills. Fatigue is a thing that happens, and you WILL get things like a landed UFO one day before your covert ops needs to be recovered, or you get a terror mission then you get a shot-down UFO within a day.

I remember one of my games in the ORIGINAL Xcom, the isometric one, where I was trying to survive long enough for my heavyhitters to get out of medbay. After save-scuming my way through a nasty chain of missions, the surviving 5-7 "newbies" were as tough as the elite badasses.

[factotum]

So... I know it is entirely different if you play Ironman, and also on higher difficulties, but I still feel, on normal, that you bring the same soldiers 95% of the time. Having a team of 6 (or in my case 5 and one MEC kernel) gen-modded kernels and one or two "spares" is basically all you need.

I always try to take at least one (relative) newbie on each mission--at worst they'll be cannon fodder to take the heat off the guys I actually want to survive, otherwise they'll gain some experience and start becoming actually useful as a replacement in the case one of the top guys dies. That can still happen--I lost my most experienced soldier on the base invasion mission last time I played, for instance.

[Triaxx]

I had the same thing, except at the end the only survivor was the complete rookie I'd drug along. He ended up jumping two ranks.

[Bladewing2013]

Base Invasion was definitely EW only.

I was very good at EU, but for some reason I'm very, very bad at EW. Can't figure out why though.

Cough Seekers and Exalt Cough

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Cough Seekers and Exalt Cough

Exalt are a bunch of pansies that are easier to kill than day one sectoids. Seekers are more annoying, but not much more so. They definitely promote the use of scanners. Having one guy on the team with the anti-stealth skin helps.

Mektoids, however, are far more dangerous, and show up stupidly early.

[thorgrim29]

Long War exalt is terrifying though. It got to the point that on extraction missions I would just bunker down my squad and count on my operative being stupidly mobile to win the day.

[Grif]

Exalt are a bunch of pansies that are easier to kill than day one sectoids.

Hold on, what? :smallconfused:

Are you comparing 3-4 HP Sectoid to 6-8 HP Exalts and then claiming the latter was easier to kill?

[Avilan the Grey]

Hold on, what? :smallconfused:

Are you comparing 3-4 HP Sectoid to 6-8 HP Exalts and then claiming the latter was easier to kill?

Relatively. I wouldn't call them easiER but they are definitely on the same threat level when you have everyone gene modded and with plasma guns as sectoids are to you just before you get your first laser weapons.
Like in my last mission; I just camped in the "fenced" area with all my plasma weapons and my MEC and the morons kept running up and being Overwatched.

Edit: as for seekers... When you trigger them, just make sure to keep the soldiers at least two and two. Don't leave anyone too far away until you get the anti-stealth skin. Wait for the moronic air-squids to appear, get Overwatched and then you are free to move as you please again.

[Krade]

Edit: as for seekers... When you trigger them, just make sure to keep the soldiers at least two and two. Don't leave anyone too far away until you get the anti-stealth skin. Wait for the moronic air-squids to appear, get Overwatched and then you are free to move as you please again.

Unless you're on Classic. Then, even if you've only activated a single group of Sectoids, they will show up from the fog on their own. Then, on the same turn, a group of Floaters will also come out of the fog. And everything goes downhill from there as you're sniper miraculously can't see the floater that's suppressing another soldier that's got another Floater 3 squares away and flanking her. So you take the risk of moving the suppressed soldier to kill the one flanking her and look at that she's dead. Everyone else missed their shots and the Assault got choked. 2 turns later everyone's dead.

I always feel like I'm doing okay on my Classic Ironman attempts until the Seekers show up. Not because of the Seekers by themselves so much as how when I spot them, literally every time immediately afterward Floaters come out of the fog on their own and suddenly no one can manage to hit anything.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hold on, what? :smallconfused:

Are you comparing 3-4 HP Sectoid to 6-8 HP Exalts and then claiming the latter was easier to kill?

By the time you are running into 6-8 HP Exalts, you've got energy weapons and hopefully some kind of armor, even in Long War. So they're still one-shottable, have no abilities to speak of (as long as you don't let them tech up) as opposed to sectoids who WILL mindfray and mind panic you MUCH more readily than in the vanilla game and for which you have zero defense against in the early game. Mindfray is an insta-gib in the first missions. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You shall not pass. Compared to that, Exalt is a snap.

Exalt is even easier in Long War, I would say. Bring an Engineer along with some grenades. Gotta love how they bunch up. You can swat down swaths of them at a time.

[Grif]

By the time you are running into 6-8 HP Exalts, you've got energy weapons and hopefully some kind of armor, even in Long War. So they're still one-shottable, have no abilities to speak of (as long as you don't let them tech up) as opposed to sectoids who WILL mindfray and mind panic you MUCH more readily than in the vanilla game and for which you have zero defense against in the early game. Mindfray is an insta-gib in the first missions. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You shall not pass. Compared to that, Exalt is a snap.

Exalt is even easier in Long War, I would say. Bring an Engineer along with some grenades. Gotta love how they bunch up. You can swat down swaths of them at a time.

Honestly, you sound like you're conflating Long War with vanilla. On Vanilla, and Classic, EXALTs show up just as you're finishing laser weapons. They are most definitely not one-shottable with ballistic weapons, and usually take two shots from laser rifles unless you get lucky. Oh and they have 8 HP and more often than not, may outnumber you 3-to-1 because of the way EXALT missions force spawns them.

Are you seriously saying that, these guys, are less threatening than Day 1 vanilla 3HP sectoids who have neither psionic powers, nor bulky Mechs to help them tank hits?

On seekers, bringing a MEC along always helps. Their minigun usually can pop a Seeker in one shot with acceptable regularity, and the close distance means their relative lack of accuracy doesn't matter as much.

[Vitruviansquid]

Sectoids don't mind fray you in vanilla.

[Avilan the Grey]

Honestly, you sound like you're conflating Long War with vanilla. On Vanilla, and Classic, EXALTs show up just as you're finishing laser weapons. They are most definitely not one-shottable with ballistic weapons, and usually take two shots from laser rifles unless you get lucky. Oh and they have 8 HP and more often than not, may outnumber you 3-to-1 because of the way EXALT missions force spawns them.

Are you seriously saying that, these guys, are less threatening than Day 1 vanilla 3HP sectoids who have neither psionic powers, nor bulky Mechs to help them tank hits?

I still find Exalts as easy as the Sectoids. The lack of 100% one-shottedness that you get if you only have laser weapons is compensated by the fact that your soldiers actually can hit the inside of an alien barn at that that level. Oh and since you don't get any valuable tech from them, just blow them the fudge up.

[endur]

On Vanilla and Classic, both EU and EW, I tend to agree that EXALTS are about as easy as Sectoids when they first show up.

I'll clarify that statement.

When Sectoids show up on day 1 on Classic, they are tough. 3 Squaddies die on the tutorial mission, but even if you skip the tutorial you can lose squaddies to the Sectoids. Sure their health is low, but while your agents have bullets, the sectoids have plasma weapons -- one hit = dead squaddie. And if you take cover behind a car, even a missed shot could result in the car blowing up and your agent dieing. As your gear/tech improves and your squaddies level, sectoids become less of a threat.

In contrast, when EXALT agents show up, they typically have guns. Later on they will have heavies and snipers. Later they will get laser weapons. Eventually they get gene mods in EW. I have never seen EXALT agents with Plasma weapons. So you usually outgun or are even with EXALT agents.

Add to that the EXALT agents get the easiest mission in the game: Covert Data Recovery. This is the mission where the EXALT agents have to go to two areas to win. You set up your squad on overwatch to ambush all the agents as they charge into the areas. This is a great mission for leveling squaddies.

Even the Exalt base is far easier to attack than the Alien base. You can start out your raid above the Exalt agents and use height to great advantage against them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, you sound like you're conflating Long War with vanilla. On Vanilla, and Classic, EXALTs show up just as you're finishing laser weapons. They are most definitely not one-shottable with ballistic weapons, and usually take two shots from laser rifles unless you get lucky. Oh and they have 8 HP and more often than not, may outnumber you 3-to-1 because of the way EXALT missions force spawns them.Yes, because Engineers exist in vanilla :smallconfused:

And again, the enemy density just means you can use AP grenades to take them out en masse. With Red Mist, almost killing them renders them nearly powerless assuming you actually use cover and don't try to Rambo it up. With up to four grenades per engineer out of the bat, it's really easy to deal with mass swarms of Exalt. And they don't have a one-hit KO like the sectoids.


Are you seriously saying that, these guys, are less threatening than Day 1 vanilla 3HP sectoids who have neither psionic powers, nor bulky Mechs to help them tank hits?Ummm... I think you are the one conflating vanilla with Long War. Sectoids have Mindfray and Psi Panic, and *WILL* use them. Unlike in vanilla when they technically have the skills but never actually use them.


On seekers, bringing a MEC along always helps. Their minigun usually can pop a Seeker in one shot with acceptable regularity, and the close distance means their relative lack of accuracy doesn't matter as much.

You are never going to get a MEC out in Long War before seekers show up.

[Leon]

You can get close with Grenadier and Tactical Webbing. And if you playing like i do and have Training Roulette on you can have some interesting weapons to go with it.

[Grif]

Ummm... I think you are the one conflating vanilla with Long War. Sectoids have Mindfray and Psi Panic, and *WILL* use them. Unlike in vanilla when they technically have the skills but never actually use them.

I never played Long War, so how can I conflate either? Regular sectoids in Vanilla do not have psionic skills aside from Mind Merge. So why are you bringing up mindfray and psi panic? If you're talking about Sectoid Commanders, then those show up long after EXALT does, so whatever their abilities are is non-related to the discussion.

@endur and Avilan
I'll agree to disagree here, because I never found regular sectoids to be much a problem on day 1, if in contrast to the usually frustrating EXALT missions that you get in Month 2/3. (Yes, including the mandatory Thin Men mission. Seriously that one is just designed to kill rookies.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I never played Long War, so how can I conflate either? Regular sectoids in Vanilla do not have psionic skills aside from Mind Merge. So why are you bringing up mindfray and psi panic? If you're talking about Sectoid Commanders, then those show up long after EXALT does, so whatever their abilities are is non-related to the discussion. Then that's your problem. I *AM* talking Long War. In fact, the entire discussion was about Long War. So that's where you are finding yourself confused.

In Long War, sectoids will Mindfray you, which is an insta-gib move on rookies, and has a pretty good chance of landing. Exalt is always at least one tier of weapon behind you, which makes them MUCH less threatening. They also have a much lower accuracy than aliens do, making them less dangerous in general.

Hit points alone does not a threat make. Exalt's lower accuracy, damage per shot, and the ability to make all of them disarmed (depending on the mission) makes them *FAR* less of a threat than even sectoids, even in vanilla. In Long War... there's simply no comparison, sectoids are MUCH more dangerous.

[Leon]

Only EXALT i worry about is the Heavy

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only EXALT i worry about is the Heavy

Heavy does take priority, unless you are able to spread out so he isn't tempted to use his rocket since no more than one soldier would be in the blast radius.

[Triaxx]

I typically put the two heaviest guys I've got, usually MEC's at a range so they're the only things that get hit so he expends it and then we can mutilate him at leisure.

Unless he does something stupid and I can paste him with a grenade launcher. Anyone else feel Alien Grenades should have upgraded the MEC grenade launcher.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I typically put the two heaviest guys I've got, usually MEC's at a range so they're the only things that get hit so he expends it and then we can mutilate him at leisure.

Unless he does something stupid and I can paste him with a grenade launcher. Anyone else feel Alien Grenades should have upgraded the MEC grenade launcher.

Isn't there a Forge upgrade for the mek grenade launcher shooting alien grenades?

[Triaxx]

Might be. I'd have to check.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Might be. I'd have to check.

I think the research that makes alien grenades to be the 'standard' use also upgrades MEK grenades launchers to shoot alien grenades. Could be wrong, though. Still always good at blowing up cover. And there's times when you just want to deal a specific amount of damage, but not too much (such as setting up capture attempts).

[Triaxx]

Yup, that's it. Guess I never looked closely enough at the grenade launcher grenade.

[endur]

I was inspired to start playing XCom: Enemy Within again.

First, I did my homework by visiting various sites and watching ChristopherOdd's Excellent Army of Four Impossible Ironman run through (where he didn't lose a single soldier, although he did lose a bunch of countries). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exqqlMQGTFo 49 part video series ranging between 30 minutes and an hour and a half per video (typically one map cleared per video)

I'm playing on classic EW with two DLC mission options, but no ironman (although I'm trying to play like an iron man and minimize my saving and see how close I can come to ironman).

I failed the portent series (no Battleship loot for me). I also lost Asia due to a failed terror mission (I had satellites up and bought the officer upgrades first).

Squadwise, I started out pretty well. I lost on average one soldier on the early missions. Then I had a streak where nobody was dieing. Then I started getting slaughtered on missions (failing several, even almost failing an Exalt mission).

At this point, I have laser weapons and titan armor, and am getting ready to clear the Exalt base and the Alien base.