Help on a Binder/Warlock Gestalt build

[Val666]

Hello guys, I'm starting a gestalt game next week and decided to play a Binder Warlock. I think is a very versatile combination and I really like the flavour. My ability scores are: 19, 17, 16, 12, 11 , 09. Starting level 5. Access to core + completes + races series + tomes of battle/magic. I would like to know if you guys have any combo between this clases and also stat distribution and Invocation selection.

[Ellowryn]

The answer is pretty much whatever you want to do. This particular combo means you can do just about anything, you just have to decide what it is you want.

Do you want to melee? Scout? Ranged? Craft?

[Grod_The_Giant]

It partially depends on what kind of character you want. Do you want to focus on Eldrich Blasting, or go into melee with Eldrich Glaive/Claws?

[Honest Tiefling]

I haven't played a binder, but can't you use Naberius to negate the issues of dealing with Hellfire from the Hellfire warlock class? I'm not 100% sure what flavor you want, but I think in many cases warlock, binder and infernal fire can work together quite nicely. Sadly, Hellfire Warlock is from the Fiendish Codex II.

Admittedly, I would think that turning invisible would make some of the pact's signs a little less noticeable.

[Troacctid]

Astaroth + Imbue Item is a nice combo. It lets you craft any magic item you want. Naberius + Hellfire Warlock is a classic, very good for blasting.

You'll 100% want Improved Binding, and 80-90% want Expel Vestige. Beyond that, it depends on what you're looking to do. Make sure you have a plan for combat, and preferably something that's more than just "Eldritch Blast every round." (It's a fine ability, but its damage output is underwhelming.)

[Val666]

Uhmm very nice advise from everyone, thanks! I'd like to use my vestiges and invocations to cover mobility part and also debuffing. Attacking with Eldricth Blast or "Vestige ability here" from range and Eldritch Glaive in melee would be a good idea? I want to be efficient in melee and range and have very good mobility,

[Kahlendrrari]

It depends on what role you wish to fill in the party. As a Binder || Warlock you can easily be the party face, with Naberius bound and the beguiling influence invocation. Don't forget to max out UMD to as that opens up even more options. Both classes have decent social skills, and both classes lean towards having a high Charisma score. but both classes can also stand to dump charisma as well. If you bind Laraje she gives some nice ranged options that I believe can be used with your eldritch blast. Savnok can help you tank if your party doesn't have one.

As with most if not all gestalt builds focus on one "side" of the gestalt and use the other side to augment it.

[Val666]

Mhmm..I'd like this character to be based on save abilities. That means maxing out charisma, blasting and debuffing (while having eldritch glaive for melee encounters). A little bit of social interaction and even crafting is a posibility, but I would like to focus on blasting. Binding Zeryll will be my goal in this game and then going all the way out. By the way, you can take prestige classes on gestalt builds? It's my first time in this kind of game.

[Ellowryn]

Do note that without a way to increase your BaB then Eldritch Glaive isn't going to do you much good. And yes you can take PrC's in gestalt, but depending on how your Dm wants to run it you might only be able to take 1 on a side at a time.

[Nifft]

Hellfire Warlock is one way to go, but IMHO it's more important to hit Warlock 12 ASAP and get the awesome crafting synergy with Astaroth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

After Warlock 12, go into a PrC if you want. Hellfire is fine at that point. Actually, with how Hellfire Infusion works, it's probably a great idea to go to level 12 crafter -> Hellfire Warlock.

- - -

Starting out, level 5, hmm...

That means you can use your level 4 Binder bonus feat for Improved Binding, so you don't need to spend a general feat slot on that. That's pretty great.

Hmm, actually, focusing on Astaroth at level 5 is pretty nice. (With Improved Binding, you get access to Vestiges as if you were 2 levels higher, so you have access to 4th level Vestiges.) Astaroth is very much a utility Vestige: the breath is good as crowd-control, the suggestion ability is juicy in and out of combat, and the social skills bonus stacks with the Beguiling Influence invocation.

I like Eldritch Glaive as a melee option, but my preference would be a 2nd row ranged character if your party has enough front-liners. If you expect to have long-range encounters, Eldritch Spear is important. You have 3 Invocation slots, so if you're not sure how your party will handle melee, you could take both, and then replace one or the other when you get a new tier of Invocations at level 6.

So one build would be: Party face, uncertain about how good the front line is at keeping jerks away.

Invocations: Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Spear, Beguiling Influence - plan to trade one of the first two away next level
Usual pact bind: Astaroth (the Cityscape one, not the Dragon Magazine one)
Feats:
1 - Improved Initiative
3 - Weapon Finesse or Obtain Familiar
4 (bonus Binder feat) - Improved Binding

With Astaroth at this level, you can create magic arms & armor, and you can UMD one scroll or wand to craft another wand.

[Val666]

Yeah I noticed Eldritch Glaive with low bab wouldn't be that good. What about Eldricth Claws? If I can get them pass my dm would they be better than glaive? also, thanks for answering de prc class question my build would now look like: Binder 10/KotSS 5/Binder 5 + Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/ Warlock 8

[Troacctid]

If you use Eldritch Glaive, you'll probably want to prestige into Knight of the Sacred Seal to improve your BAB.

For vestiges, refer to this handy list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list). It's handy.

[Honest Tiefling]

From this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) site:


A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

Hope that clears things up. You cannot have two prestige classes each level, so I'd map them out level by level ahead of time.

[Ellowryn]

From this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) site:



Hope that clears things up. You cannot have two prestige classes each level, so I'd map them out level by level ahead of time.

Depends on the Dm, most don't care unless you are trying to run two duel progressions at the same time. Just ask what your DM thinks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah I noticed Eldritch Glaive with low bab wouldn't be that good. What about Eldricth Claws? If I can get them pass my dm would they be better than glaive? also, thanks for answering de prc class question my build would now look like: Binder 10/KotSS 5/Binder 5 + Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/ Warlock 8
There are pros and cons to both, but in my opinion the Claws are significantly better. While they're not touch attacks, they're also not their own special action, meaning that they have superior interactions with... pretty much everything. (For example, Paimon's Dance of Death). You also get two of them from the get-go, at full BAB, and you can pump the damage up still more with things like Superior Unarmed Strike or a Monk's Belt.

[Nifft]

Yeah, if the Eldritch Claws feat is allowed, then claws are great for a low-to-mid level melee build. But that's Dragon Magazine content, and some games don't allow that stuff. Ask your DM.

Also: you might not want to be melee. Being a melee monster is also fun, but it's not necessarily your job.

What's the rest of your party looking like?

[Taveena]

Mhmm..I'd like this character to be based on save abilities. That means maxing out charisma, blasting and debuffing (while having eldritch glaive for melee encounters). A little bit of social interaction and even crafting is a posibility, but I would like to focus on blasting. Binding Zeryll will be my goal in this game and then going all the way out. By the way, you can take prestige classes on gestalt builds? It's my first time in this kind of game.

For what it's worth, Eldritch Glaive and Eldritch Chain are wonderful for those purposes. One save against nausea is bad. 3 saves per round is bloody hard to make. Utterdark Glaive even stacks! Lategame, though.

[Val666]

DM accepted everything I wanted to use :D he even recomended the Beast Strike strike feat c: Thanks everyone for the advice and suggestions!

EDIT: Also could I have a little help with stat distribution? I want to max CHA but I'm a little lost with the other stats, I got 19, 17, 16. 12. 11 and 09. Thanks!!:smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Put your highest score into Cha and your second-highest into Con, and the rest pretty much don't matter; assign them according to how you want to play your character.


Quoth Nifft:

With Astaroth at this level, you can create magic arms & armor, and you can UMD one scroll or wand to craft another wand.
Using a wand to craft a wand is pointless, because you need to cast the spell 50 times to make a wand. You wouldn't have a net gain of charges. You could, however, do something like using a wand of Fireball to craft a flaming sword.

[Nifft]

DM accepted everything I wanted to use :D he even recomended the Beast Strike strike feat c: Thanks everyone for the advice and suggestions! Neat. Have fun!


EDIT: Also could I have a little help with stat distribution? I want to max CHA but I'm a little lost with the other stats, I got 19, 17, 16. 12. 11 and 09. Thanks!!:smallbiggrin: Do you want to be the Face guy? If so, your stats might want to be Cha > Int (even) > Dex.

Why a high Int? For the skill points (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive).

Dex gives you Paimon synergy, plus it lets you always hit at range with your Eldritch Blast even when you're bound to someone else.

[Nifft]

Using a wand to craft a wand is pointless, because you need to cast the spell 50 times to make a wand.

That's wrong.


The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

You pay all related costs 50x, but you need to expend the spell slot once.

[Val666]

My DM just told me we have a free +1 LA template o.O? Which one would be good for my character? I thought about Unseelie Fey but I think is op Dx

[Honest Tiefling]

Well...Tiefling. It's probably a bit weak for the +1, but the outsider type is nice to avoid 'person' spells, and I think it suits your flavor. Not to mention the flavor of it with Hellfire Warlock.

[Troacctid]

Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Nephthys is very strong for +1 LA if you're willing to be a Neraph (or, slightly better, savage progression Aasimar (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) without racial levels). It gives you a version of wild shape that's usable as a free action, which is very good on a Binder//Warlock, since you keep almost all your abilities in animal form.

Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) would work if you only took a single level of the savage progression (although the second level might be good enough to take anyway once you have some levels under your belt). At-will Charm Person is very nice and you get a Charisma bonus.

Draconic would serve well enough if you just want some stat boosts. +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is Dragon content but Athas human grants you bonus skills, a feat, +2 to any two stats of your choice, and a selection of psionic powers along with some power points to manifest them with.

That aside anything that boosts Charisma, such as they Feytouched template, is a good choice.

[Nifft]

My DM just told me we have a free +1 LA template o.O? Which one would be good for my character? I thought about Unseelie Fey but I think is op Dx Karsite Human from Tome of Magic (in the Binder section) is a great fit for your character. It's explicitly good at Warlock stuff and Binder stuff, and has Spell Resistance.

The Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic (in the Shadow Magic section) is good. Throw that on any normal race.

The Draconic template from Races of the Dragon would also be fun on a melee build (Str +2, Con +2, Cha +2).

Chaos Gnome (from Races of Stone) is a nice LA +1 race (+2 Dex, +2 Cha).

EDIT: Derp, I got Karsite wrong. Here's a good listing: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4886

[Kahlendrrari]

Karsites are a +2 LA if I remember right, but their natural resistance to magic doesn't interfere with their warlock stuff which is a bonus.

[Taveena]

My DM just told me we have a free +1 LA template o.O? Which one would be good for my character? I thought about Unseelie Fey but I think is op Dx

Unseelie Fae is also +0, so it's actually free. (So is Magic-Blooded.)

[Nifft]

Karsites are a +2 LA if I remember right, but their natural resistance to magic doesn't interfere with their warlock stuff which is a bonus.

Fixed, thanks.

[Val666]

I'll be playing a Karsite if dm doesn't allow Daelkyr Half-Blood. By they way, Knight of the sacred seal requieres Weapon Focus (any weapon). Should I use weapon focus (unarmed strikes)? since I'm using Eldritch Claw (I know the weapon focus doesn't apply to the claws but at higher levels I'll have beast strike and blah blah blah) or just apply the weapon focus to a Morning Star?

EDIT: Also, something that was bothering me. I don't need Improved Unarmed Strike for Eldritch Claws right? Since I'm not using unarmed strikes I don't provoke attacks of oportunity right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There can be no gestalt Warlock discussions without a mention of Enlightened Spirit in Complete Mage. In a standard game it's nothing but a downgrade, but if it's taken along side of Warlock levels in a gestalt build everything it gives you stacks with what you get from your Warlock levels. Its bonus damage to Eldritch Blast is just bonus damage, not a progression of the class feature, since it doesn't also increase your caster level with it. The invocations it grants are also bonus invocations, not a progression of how many you get from your class levels.

Furthermore, if you start taking it as early as possible, your 5th level in it which grants a greater invocation will be taken with Warlock 10, which enables you to pick a greater invocation at that Warlock level. A Warlock will normally have three invocations of each category, but this gives you a fourth greater invocation but one fewer lesser invocation. Since you would normally spend a lesser invocation on Fell Flight, but Enlightened Spirit grants flight, it's basically a net gain of one greater invocation, in addition to all the others that Enlightened Spirit gives you.

Just go Warlock 20// Binder 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Binder 5, and get Improved Binding so you can bind 4th level vestiges for most of your career, and at 20th level you'll be able to bind Zceryll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718).

[Troacctid]

Binding Zceryll with a Binder level of 10 only gives you access to Summon Monster V. If you plan on having Zceryll as your main vestige, you're going to want the full 18 effective Binder levels to get Summon Monster IX. That makes the Enlightened Spirit plan a lot worse.

[Chronos]

There can be no gestalt Warlock discussions without a mention of Enlightened Spirit in Complete Mage. In a standard game it's nothing but a downgrade, but if it's taken along side of Warlock levels in a gestalt build...
...then it's still nothing but a downgrade. The problem in both cases is the same, the opportunity cost. In a standard build, every level you take of Enlightened Spirit costs you a level of Warlock, whereas in a gestalt build, every level you take of it costs you a level in some other class (Binder, in this case). And since Binder is a stronger class than Warlock, that makes it even more of a downgrade.

[Val666]

Hello again c: I got another question regarding this build huehuehue My dm clarified the issue about prestige classes and I can only get 1. So I was wondering which will be better? Knight of the Sacred Seal or Hellfire Warlock? What do you think guys?

[Nifft]

Take neither.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hellfire Warlock all the way. KotSS is really only useful because it's a chassis upgrade for the Binder- a few more HP, a bit more bab. Hellfire Warlock, on the other hand, almost doubles the damage on your main attack.

[Troacctid]

Hellfire Warlock, and it's not even close.

[Chronos]

Agreed. KotSS is nice because, hey, why not? But Hellfire Warlock is such a big damage boost that it almost turns eldritch blast into an entirely different ability.