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Reprimand
2015-10-20, 04:28 PM
So I really like the battle dancer and healer base classes in 3.5 but myself and my DM both agree that the mechanics for these classes are terrible but I love the flavor of these classes so much and still want to play them.

We were wondering if you were the DM what would you do the change these classes to make the not optimal but at least a viable choice in 3.5. as my DM has never customized/created a class from scratch

AvatarVecna
2015-10-20, 04:36 PM
It kinda depends on what level of char-op your playing at. If I was trying to make a Battle Dancer be more on-par with like a Bard or a high-op rogue, I'd probably make these changes:
All Good Saves
d10 HD
6+Int skill points/level
Bonus Feat progression
Faster Increased Speed progression
Pounce at about level 6
Skirmish damage/AC bonus progression (slower than scout, probably)


These changes make Con, Int, and Wis less necessary, increase the BD's mobility, make them less feat-starved, and gives them goot offensive options. It's probably not a perfect fix, but it makes the Battle Dancer significantly more useful.

ComaVision
2015-10-20, 04:38 PM
Healer: I'd give them all Conjuration(Healing) spells and remind the player that they have access to Sanctified spells.

Battledancer: I'd just expand Tashalatora to work for them as well, and it progresses their Dance progression. If a player wanted to play a straight BD then I'd add initiator progression a la ToB.

sleepyphoenixx
2015-10-20, 04:41 PM
If you allow the Healer to take the Dynamic Priest feat, access to the spells suggested in SpC and Sanctified spells they're actually a decent T3 class. I don't think there needs to be any improvements other than that.
The extremely limited spell list without those measures is really all that keeps the healer at T5.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-20, 04:42 PM
Healer would do well with a dramatically improved spell list. It has semi-useful class features (the ability to get some of those companions is nice). Spell Compendium gives a recommendation for updating their spell list which I highly recommend. Also look into giving them some defensive buff spells to they can be proactive in combat would be nice.

Psyren
2015-10-20, 04:46 PM
An often-overlooked trick with Healer is that they get all the Sanctified Spells automatically by RAW, because they are prepared casters that know their whole list. So simply adding BoED to your game gives them a lot more options, including offensive magic to zap undead and fiends with.

ngilop
2015-10-20, 05:04 PM
Take a look at my own Healer re-tool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272245-Healer-Re-tooled-please-critique)

and see if that is more along the lines of how you see a 'better' healer.

Reprimand
2015-10-20, 08:40 PM
so basically give the battle dancer pounce, saves, skill points, a higher HD, some bonus feats, and maybe some skirmish or sneak attack damage and a the healer access to BoED and some spell list tweeks?

Ruethgar
2015-10-20, 08:56 PM
I like the sound of a ToB BD. Maybe Crusader maneuver progression with Adaptive Style refresh mechanic fluffed as a dancing flourish sort of thing and access to Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, maybe Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon.

AvatarVecna
2015-10-20, 09:01 PM
I like the sound of a ToB BD. Maybe Crusader maneuver progression with Adaptive Style refresh mechanic fluffed as a dancing flourish sort of thing and access to Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, maybe Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon.

White Raven could allow you to mimic the Bard/Warblade trick without multiclassing.

daremetoidareyo
2015-10-20, 09:16 PM
Wait a second,
can an evil healer cast those exalted spells?


EDIT:
Nevermind, looked it up.

Although you could be a troll and spend all of your time healing everybody in battle, good and bad, and your behavior wouldn't necessarily be evil. CG only.

Psyren
2015-10-20, 11:25 PM
Wait a second,
can an evil healer cast those exalted spells?


EDIT:
Nevermind, looked it up.

Although you could be a troll and spend all of your time healing everybody in battle, good and bad, and your behavior wouldn't necessarily be evil. CG only.

Healers can't be evil or even neutral; The class "requires a good alignment." And while the class doesn't punish you for healing evil creatures, refusing to heal good ones will make you fall.

Chronos
2015-10-21, 10:25 AM
The first step to fixing the Healer is to make them full-list spontaneous, like the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. Now, this does take away their ability to cast sanctified spells, so the second step is to add those back in. Then, add a few more decent healing spells from other sources, and give them an Advanced Learning ability to pick up a handful more that the player wants but that you missed in step 3. Oh, and make sure that at least a couple of the spells you gave them give them proactive options in combat, so they don't have to wait for people to get hurt before they can contribute.

Flickerdart
2015-10-21, 10:34 AM
Healers should be fixed by making healing fun - as-is, even giving them all the heals doesn't stop them from being boring, since they are basically useless in combat and sanctified spells aren't that great or constantly reliable.

As such, the healer should be given custom spells or class features that allow him to actively contribute to the goal of combat (enemy = dead) while simultaneously doing his job (ally = not dead). Attacks of the "enemy takes damage, ally heals that much" variety are good. Abilities along the lines of "whenever you cast a spell, an ally heals 5*spell level" are also good.

A healer that can't be in two places at once is a lame healer. Give them the ability to craft contingent healing spells on their allies, and/or the War Weaver's ability to cast spells that affect the entire party at once.

It would still be very much within the scope of the healer to cast buffs. After all, preventing damage is even better than healing it! As a quick fix, I would give them a 1/level Advanced Learning that lets them add any spell that targets one or more other creatures and gives an AC bonus, temporary HP, resistances, etc.

Ruethgar
2015-10-21, 03:40 PM
I've recently been playing Neverwinter and I loved the Disc Priest in WoW pre Cata with Cata talents for DPS and healing(often topping the charts on both), but although that type of healing would make it more interesting, I feel it would detract from the class thematic of the healer and delve into the realm of vampiric, blood magic or similar.

From Neverwinter, giving the healer a debuff of "if you hit this guy you heal" could be interesting as well as other things along that line. But adding, creating and balancing those, you may as well make a home brew class. I would say just keep in mind the Sanctified spells and call it for that one.

For the BD, same suggestion as before, Crusader Maneuver progression, Adaptive Style refresh with the modified: Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, White Raven.

Desert Wind, no, not really working.

Devoted Spirit, eh no.

Diamond Mind seems too disciplined to be a BD, give this to monks instead.

Iron Heart because it is a Warblade special I would be reluctant to give it to another but the Battle Dancer certainly would fit with Iron Heart well.

Setting Sun, throwing people as you weave through the battlefield is very Battle Dancer in imagery.

Shadow Hand could work but is going a bit more magical than the base class would normally be.

Stone Dragon, this one doesn't seem to fit right with the mobility implied by the Battle Dancer.

Tiger Claw, jumping dancing death, yes please. It fits well with the BD style.

White Raven would fit thematically inspiring the slaves to greater heights and rallying them together.

Flickerdart
2015-10-21, 04:13 PM
giving the healer a debuff of "if you hit this guy you heal"
Hah, that would be a hilarious immediate-action spell. Your enemy lashes out, and his strike seems to connect...but something is not quite right!

StreamOfTheSky
2015-10-21, 05:06 PM
I have a Battle Dancer improvement, see here or below: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19807785&postcount=4

Capoeirista (Battle Dancer fix)

HD: d8
BAB: Full
Saves: Good Fortitude and Reflex, Poor Will
Skill points: 6 + Int modifier
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Proficiencies: All simple weapons, no armor or shields.
Alignment: Any non-lawful.
Starting wealth: As Monk.

Abilities: Strength is important for its role in melee combat, dexterity helps offset the lack of armor, constitution is useful for survival, and charisma affects AC, Will saves, and several other class features.


LevelBABFortRefWillSpecialUnarmed
1+1+2+2+0 Ginga, Malicia, MK +1d6, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus1d6, --
2+2+3+3+0Dance of Reckless Bravery +1, Skiva, Uncanny Dodge1d6, --
3+3+3+3+1Speed +10 ft, Force of Personality, MK +2d61d6, --
4+4+4+4+1Ki Strike (Magic), War Dance of the Behemoth1d8, +1
5+5+4+4+1Acrobatic Charge, Evasion, MK +3d61d8, +1
6+6/+1+5+5+2Rasteira, Malicia (move), Improved Uncanny Dodge1d8, +1
7+7/+2+5+5+2Movement Mastery, Reckless Bravery (move), MK +4d61d8, +1
8+8/+3+6+6+2Dance of Viper's Alacrity, Reckless Bravery +2, Au Batido1d10, +2
9+9/+4+6+6+3Tiger Strike, Speed +20 ft, MK+5d61d10, +2
10+10/+5+7+7+3Dance of the Soaring Eagle, Ki Strike (aligned)1d10, +2
11+11/+6/+1+7+7+3Roll With It, Improved Evasion, MK +6d61d10, +2
12+12/+7/+2+8+8+4Dance of the Clever Sparrow, Reckless Bravery (swift)2d6, +3
13+13/+8/+3+8+8+4Viper's Alacrity (move), MK +7d62d6, +3
14+14/+9/+4+9+9+4Flash Dance, Reckless Bravery +32d6, +3
15+15/+10/+5+9+9+5Soaring Eagle (move), Speed +30 ft, MK +8d62d6, +3
16+16/+11/+6/+1+10+10+5Ki Strike (adamantine)2d8, +4
17+17/+12/+7/+2+10+10+5Clever Sparrow (move), MK +9d62d8, +4
18+18/+13/+8/+3+11+11+6Viper's Alacrity (swift)2d8, +4
19+19/+14/+9/+4+11+11+6Flash Dance (move), MK +10d62d8, +4
20+20/+15/+10/+5+12+12+6Dance of Death, Reckless Bravery +4, Soaring Eagle (swift)2d10, +5


Ginga: The Battle Dancer gains several dance-based class features (denoted with * after the name). In general, these dances have an activation action, but afterward do not require actions to maintain, though many require certain conditions to be met in order to maintain the effects (if she fails to meet the conditions on a given round, the effect ends following her turn) on subsequent rounds. The Battle Dancer may use her dances a total number of times per day equal to her class level, split up as she chooses. A Battle Dancer can only have one dance effect active at a time. She can also expend a daily use of her dance as a free action to add her Charisma bonus to her next attack roll.

Unarmed Strike: As the monk class feature, the Battle Dancer gains Improved Unarmed Strike. A Battle Dancer's unarmed strikes can be lethal or nonlethal, at her option; count as manufactured and/or natural weapons for the purposes of effects, spells, feats, and so on that benefit one or the other; and follow the monk unarmed damage progression. Levels in Battle Dancer stack with those of monk and other classes that advance monk unarmed damage.

Malicia: The Battle Dancer is adept at feinting in combat. By distracting her foes with her graceful movements and dancing, she is able to set them up for powerful kicks utilizing the full momentum of her spins. The Battle Dancer may use either Sleight of Hand or Bluff to feint, and adds her class level as a bonus to any check to feint. Instead of the normal benefit of feinting, the Battle Dancer may choose to leave a foe susceptible to her Momentum Kicks (see below) until the end of her next turn. The foe retains his dexterity bonus to AC against her next attack (unless he would lose it for a different reason anyway), but she may use her momentum kicks as often as she can attack until the feint effect ends.
At 6th level, the Battle Dancer is able to feint as a move action, or a free action if she also possesses the Improved Feint feat. She may only feint a given foe once per round even if she can do so as a free action, however.

Momentum Kick: The Battle Dancer's beautiful spins and flips are not just for show; she is also able to turn them into her greatest weapon. Unfortunately, such attacks are easy to see coming and avoid by an attentive foe. In order to deliver a momentum kick, the foe must be flatfooted or lost dexterity bonus to AC by other means, or have been subjected to malicia (see above). The attack must be a kick of some sort. If the conditions are met, the Battle Dancer deals an additional +1d6 damage on her attack, with this amount increasing by +1d6 every other Battle Dancer level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc...). Despite the similarities to sneak attack, this is not precision damage and is not subject to any of its restrictions, though if a battle dancer also had sneak attack and met its conditions, both damages would stack.

AC Bonus: As the Monk class feature, except the Battle Dancer adds her Charisma modifier to her AC instead of Wisdom. Levels in Monk and Battle Dancer stack for determining the AC bonus, and a Monk / Battle Dancer may use the higher ability modifier of wisdom or charisma. NOTE: Monk was houseruled to get +1 AC at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20. Battle Dancer follows this progression.

Dance of Reckless Bravery* (Su): At 2nd level, a Battle Dancer is able to use her dance to inspire herself and allies. Activating the dance requires a standard action and functions as a Bard's inspire courage, granting a +1 morale bonus on attacks, weapon damage rolls, and saves against charm and fear effects (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 14th level, and +4 at 20th level). However, in order to maintain the dance on subsequent rounds, the battle dancer must move at least 10 ft each round. The dance's effects linger for 5 rounds after the performance stops, just as inspire courage. At level 7, she may activate this dance as a move action. At level 12, she may activate the dance as a swift action.
Levels of Bard stack for determining the bonus of the dance and inspire courage, though Bard levels track daily usages of performance separately and do not stack with Battle Dancer levels for dance usages per day.

Skiva (Ex): At 2nd level, the Battle Dancer has learned the dodging techniques of her unique art. As an immediate action against an attack she is aware of, the battle dancer can choose to make a Perform (Dance) check, and treat the result as her AC against the attack, twisting and contorting her body to avoid it entirely. She must choose to use this ability before knowing if the attack was successful or not, and it can only be used if the battle dancer is not flatfooted and is able to move.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, the Battle Dancer gains Uncanny Dodge, as the Barbarian class feature.

Speed Bonus (Ex): At 3rd level, the Battle Dancer's training in quick movements results in a +10 ft bonus to her speed. This bonus increases by another +10 ft at levels 9 and 15.

Force of Personality (Ex): At 3rd level, the Battle Dancer may use her Charisma bonus in place of her Wisdom modifier on Will saves. Alternatively, she may choose to gain the Iron Will feat instead.

Ki Strike (Su): Beginning at 4th level, the Battle Dancer's unarmed strikes are treated as magical weapons and gain a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. This bonus improves by +1 every 4 levels thereafter.
At 10th level, her unarmed strikes are considered to be aligned based upon her own alignment (so a CG Battle Dancer's unarmed strikes are treated as chaotic and good aligned), allowing her to overcome certain kinds of damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for all purposes, including any attempts to sunder objects.

War Dance of the Behemoth* (Su): At 4th level, the Battle Dancer can instill dread within her foes with a primal, aggressive dance. Activating this dance is a standard action. All foes within 60 ft that can see or hear the dancer must make a will save against a DC equal to her Perform (Dance) check result. Those that fail the save become shaken as long as they remain within range and for 1d4+1 rounds afterwards. Any unaffected foe that enters the range (or the dancer moves within range of the foe) must save as well. Once a foe successfully saves against this dance, he does not have to save against it again for 24 hours. The dancer can maintain this dance up to 1 round per rank in Perform (Dance) per use. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Acrobatic Charge: A 5th level Battle Dancer can approach a foe with blinding speed while also gliding and somersaulting around, to strike at the moment a foe is least expecting it. When she makes a charge attack, she may move up to double her speed, but can do so in any directions she wishes, and is able to leap over and move around obstructions (making skill checks to do so if needed) in her way. Furthermore, as part of a charge, she can attempt a Perform (Dance) check, with a DC equal to the foe's AC. If successful, any attacks made as part of that charge treat her foe as flatfooted.

Evasion: Gained at 5th level, as the Monk class feature.

Rasteira: At 6th level, the Battle Dancer gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Gained at 6th level, as the Barbarian class feature. Battle Dancer levels stack for determining the minimum Rogue level needed to flank the Dancer.

Movement Mastery (Ex): A Battle Dancer of 7th level is so skilled in her art that she can always take 10 on Balance, Jump, Perform (Dance), and Tumble checks, even while threatened or distracted.

Au Batido: A signature move of the battle dancer, this flashy counterattack out of a cartwheel can be used by a 8th level or higher battle dancer upon successfully dodging an attack with Skiva against the foe that made the attack, if he is within melee reach. The attack must be a kick, and it is not considered to be an attack of opportunity, simply an extra attack.

Dance of Viper's Alacrity* (Su): At 8th level, the Battle Dancer may use her dance to move and strike with blinding speed. Activating this dance is a standard action and grants the dancer Haste, as the spell effect. In order to maintain the dance in subsequent rounds, she must either move at least 10 ft or make a full attack action. For every 3 levels she gains beyond 8, the dancer can inspire this Haste effect in one additional ally that can see her dance. At level 13, the dance can be activated as a move action, and as a swift action at level 18. This dance can only be maintained for up to 1 round per 2 ranks in Perform (Dance) she possesses per use.

Tiger Strike (Ex): A Battle Dancer of 9th level is able to make a full attack at the end of an Acrobatic Charge, as the Pounce ability. However, she may only execute the pounce if she succeeds on the Perform (Dance) check to leave the foe flatfooted. She gains the benefit of pounce even if the foe is immune to the flatfooted condition.

Dance of the Soaring Eagle* (Su): At 10th level, a Battle Dancer's leaps and graceful bounds are able to defy gravity. Upon activating this dance (a standard action), the Battle Dancer gains a fly speed equal to her land speed, with good maneuverability. In order to maintain this dance in subsequent rounds, the dancer must move at least 10 ft, and the dance can be maintained for up to 1 minute per 2 ranks in Perform (Dance) each use. When the dance ends, the effect fades slowly, allowing the dancer to feather fall safely to the ground for up to 1d6 rounds, similar to when a Fly spell ends. At level 15, she may activate this dance as a move action, and at level 20 she may activate it as a swift action.

Roll With It (Ex): As an immediate action, a dancer of 11th level or higher can attempt to let the impact of a blow move her rather than suffer damage from it. She decides to use this ability after a non-magical (physical) attack has struck her and damage has been rolled, and she does not need to have been aware of the attack. She then attempts a Tumble check, with a DC equal to the damage dealt. If successful, she can then move in any direction of her choice, gliding across the ground, somersaulting, or the like. The distance moved is equal to 1 ft per point damage that would have been dealt (rounded down to a multiple of 5 ft; minimum distance moved of at least 5 ft), and her path must allow for this full distance or else the defensive roll fails to negate the damage. If the tumble check and space allows for the roll, the dancer moves this distance and suffers no damage from the attack. The roll's movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe it is used against, but it does from others. The dancer can attempt to tumble to avoid these attacks as normal, but must attempt to move at full speed (+10 to DC) and suffers an additional +10 to the DC (for a total of +20) due to the difficulty involved.

Improved Evasion: Gained at 11th level, as the Monk class feature.

Dance of the Clever Sparrow* (Su): This dance, gained at 12th level, retells the myth of a sparrow that once felled a great oak tree, and is used to encourage the dancer and/or her allies against larger enemies. Activating this dance is a standard action (move action at 17th level), and grants the dancer or one ally who can see or hear her a benefit similar to the Fell the Greatest Foe spell. The target deals an extra 1d6 melee damage per size category he or she is smaller than whoever he or she attacks. At every 3 levels beyond 12, the dancer can grant this benefit to one additional ally or herself. To maintain the dance on subsequent rounds, the dancer must remain in melee with a foe larger than herself or attempt to close to melee distance with such a foe (even if she is not a beneficiary of the dance). The dance can be maintained for 1 round per rank in Perform (Dance).

Flash Dance* (Su): At 14th level, the Battle Dancer can flicker in and out of reality as she dances. This is treated as the Greater Blink spell effect (as Blink, but without her own attacks suffering the miss chance). Activating this dance is a standard action, or a move action at level 19. In order to maintain the dance on subsequent rounds, she must move at least 10 ft. The dance can be maintained for up to 1 round per 2 ranks in Perform (Dance).

Dance of Death* (Su): A 20th level battle dancer masters the potent dance of death. As a standard action, she selects one foe and initiates this odd mix of voodoo ritual and performance, chanting vivid predictions of that creature's imminent demise. Against that creature, the dancer's attacks with any weapons are treated as if they had the Bane magical weapon property, of a type that matches the victim, her unarmed strikes have their base (before feats and magical properties apply) critical stats changed to 18-20/x3 (so a dancer w/ Improved Critical feat would have a critical range of 15-20/x3, for example), and when she uses Skiva against that creature, it does not consume an immediate action (allowing for repeated use of Skiva and Au Batido against that creature). Finally, the victim finds himself transfixed by otherworldly spirits. On any round in which he attempts to move away from the dancer any distance, he must first succeed on a will save (DC 10 + ½ Dancer's level + Dancer's charisma modifier). Failure on a given round means he is unable to move to any space that is further away from the dancer than his current position for that round. In order to maintain this dance on subsequent rounds after activating it, the dancer must attempt at least one melee attack on the victim each round, and the dance can be maintained for up to 1 round per rank in Perform (Dance).


Character Options:
Alternate Class features: Any Bard or Monk variants that you qualify for.
Feats: The Extra Dance feat can be taken multiple times and gives +4 uses/day for the Battle Dancer's dances each time.

It's basically a full BAB frontline unarmed warrior with some bardic buffing abilities and a damage bonus source sort of like sneak attack (though it is not SA, so it has none of the limitations but also can't be used w/ ambush feats)

I'd also suggest dropping the Expertise and Int 13 requirements of Improved Feint and adding a +4 bonus on the checks like most "Improved" feats grant, but that was outside the scope of the class. The ridiculous DC of feinting (foes straight up add their BAB on top of any actual sense motive they have) is also problematic, but I countered that w/ a bonus on feinting equal to class level.

I should also note some things this class gets that are identical to monk class features but seem buffed were likewise buffed for the monk, I just didn't bother to point that out every time. Ki Strike giving an outright enhancement bonus up to +5 was meant to combine w/ Pathfinder's version of the Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is slightly cheaper and does not need a +1 before you can start putting special properties on it. Thus, a level 20 Monk or Capoeirista with a fully upgraded amulet would be able to have a +10 equivalent unarmed strike. The Scorpion Kama from MIC is still an option as well, of course.

ekarney
2015-10-21, 07:37 PM
I'd say to start off with, give the healer by giving it a positive energy version of the Dread Necro's charnal touch, and advancing that similarly to a warlock's blast.
It may not be quite that fun, but blasting a bolt of healing across the battlefield is better than having to waste a spell on it, meaning once you tweak the spell list a little, it can heal AND do other things.

I've tried smushing the Battle Dancer and Sohei together for some homebrew I started but never finished a while ago. As it stands it's a little borked, I'll try and dig around for the document later if you want though?

Troacctid
2015-10-21, 08:04 PM
A healer that can't be in two places at once is a lame healer. Give them the ability to craft contingent healing spells on their allies, and/or the War Weaver's ability to cast spells that affect the entire party at once.

I mean, they basically get to be in two places at once starting at level 8, thanks to their unicorn companion.

Flickerdart
2015-10-21, 09:52 PM
I mean, they basically get to be in two places at once starting at level 8, thanks to their unicorn companion.
Mhm, talk to me when unicorns get 9th level spells.

Der_DWSage
2015-10-22, 02:56 AM
So...I felt that a mention of T.G. Oskar's Healer retooling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-%28Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated!%29&highlight=healer) is relevant in this discussion, if we're talking about houserules anyway.