Mixing Regeneration and Non-Lethal Immunity

[hector212121]

What happens? There is likely more than one way to do this, but the easiest one I see with minimal LA is a Trollblooded Gheden. Or a Wendigo Gheden, but Wendigos are kind of... questionable as to whether they're allowed to be PCs. But I mean, they seem to keep their INT scores--unmodified even!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Very simple: the regeneration turns any damage that does not penetrate it into nonlethal. You are immune to nonlethal so you do not take it. Even a d2 crusader cannot damage you if they cannot penetrate your regen.

[hector212121]

I figured it was worth checking. Now, most DMs would probably laugh you out of the room if you tried to play a trollblooded Gheden, but still.

[Cruiser1]

What happens? There is likely more than one way to do this, but the easiest one I see with minimal LA is a Trollblooded Gheden. Or a Wendigo Gheden, but Wendigos are kind of... questionable as to whether they're allowed to be PCs. But I mean, they seem to keep their INT scores--unmodified even!
Regeneration + non-lethal damage immunity = damage immunity! :smallbiggrin: A powerful combination and a major step toward optimizing an invulnerable character. Another way of getting it is with buffs: Shapechange into a creature with regeneration, then persist the spell Favor of the Martyr to be immune to non-lethal.

There are ways around this invulnerability, such as whatever forms of damage bypass the regeneration. There are ways to patch that, such as the spell or item of Energy Immunity (assuming elemental damage normally bypasses it) but there are ways around that as well, such as the Searing Spell feat that does fire damage that bypasses fire immunity.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nope.

A creature with regeneration that takes lethal damage will receive lethal damage. Once that damage is taken, it's treated as though it were nonlethal. It has still taken damage.

If that creature is immune to nonlethal damage, then it cannot treat that damage it's taken as nonlethal, and all damage types overcome its regeneration.

That is the official ruling from WotC, though unfortunately the article it appeared in is no longer online.

[AmberVael]

This combination is generally referred to as the Ikea Tarrasque. You can find some in depth exploration of the topic in the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques) thread.

[Draconium]

What's bad is, you can technically take Trollblooded on a Warforged, provided you used flaws to get Toughness as well. Then you could go into Warforged Juggernaut, become immune to non-lethal damage, and get the same result for no LA. It is rules-legal, as the MM3 contains Warfoged, allowing them to be used in non-Eberron setting, such as Greyhawk (which you technically need to be playing in to even get Trollblooded). Of course, your DM will slap you silly if you try this, so do so at your own risk. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A creature's Regeneration has no power to modify anything but its own damage received. Any attack that normally deals lethal damage still deals lethal damage when it strikes a creature with regeneration, but once that creature has taken the damage it gets to treat it as nonlethal. It still receives lethal damage, but it treats the damage it's received as nonlethal. Immunity to nonlethal damage does not prevent it from receiving damage from an attack that normally deals lethal damage. It will only prevent the creature from treating that lethal damage it's taken as though it was nonlethal damage.

In short, it does not work.

[Anlashok]

It will only prevent the creature from treating that lethal damage it's taken as though it was nonlethal damage.

In short, it does not work.
That interpretation doesn't seem any particularly more valid than the other one in this thread, that since you're immune to nonlethal damage and you're treating the lethal damage as nonlethal you're by extension treating yourself as immune to the damage in the first place.

[Draconium]

That interpretation doesn't seem any particularly more valid than the other one in this thread, that since you're immune to nonlethal damage and you're treating the lethal damage as nonlethal you're by extension treating yourself as immune to the damage in the first place.

Actually, he did say that was WotC's official ruling. But he also says the article doesn't seem to be online anymore, which means that if your DM isn't already familiar with it, then he'll probably have to default to your interpretation.

[Taveena]

If you apply the half-battle, emerald, or pyroclastic dragon template AFTER the Gheden template to a Crystal Troll, damage of all types other than Sonic is converted to nonlethal, which you are immune to. You are also immune to Sonic damage.

[Werephilosopher]

That interpretation doesn't seem any particularly more valid than the other one in this thread, that since you're immune to nonlethal damage and you're treating the lethal damage as nonlethal you're by extension treating yourself as immune to the damage in the first place.

True. The relevant line in the SRD is "Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage;" it isn't specified whether it is treated as nonlethal as the damage is being dealt or after it has been dealt. However, it's probably best to err on the side of the official, non-game-breaking ruling.

[ZamielVanWeber]

True. The relevant line in the SRD is "Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage;" it isn't specified whether it is treated as nonlethal as the damage is being dealt or after it has been dealt. However, it's probably best to err on the side of the official, non-game-breaking ruling.

If it isn't official errata it does not count as an official rules change. Rules of the Game, Wiz CustServ, etc. are functionally opinions as far as the rules are concerned.

[Jack_Simth]

What happens? There is likely more than one way to do this, but the easiest one I see with minimal LA is a Trollblooded Gheden. Or a Wendigo Gheden, but Wendigos are kind of... questionable as to whether they're allowed to be PCs. But I mean, they seem to keep their INT scores--unmodified even!
The optimization forum consensus (such as it can be called that) is "immunity to damage". There are, however, other interpretations, such as WotC's "Then it remains lethal damage" that's not really available any longer and was never technically errata.

There's lots of ways to go about it - Shapechange into a War Troll, cast Energy Immunity (Acid) and Veil of Undeath on yourself.
Be Trollblooded, and take four levels of Bone Knight (Five Nations, Eberron specific). Paladin and Cleric are the general entries. With the Cleric entry, you can pick up Death Ward, Energy Immunity (Fire), and Energy Immunity (Acid) eventually.
There's others.

[Taveena]

The main problem is SEARING SPELL. Hissss.

[Uncle Pine]

The main problem is SEARING SPELL. Hissss.

No, the main problem is trollbane (Dungeonscape, 37).

[Fouredged Sword]

No, the main problem is trollbane (Dungeonscape, 37).

Nah, it's trivial to become immune to poison. There is a second level spell that delays the effect of troll bane for hours. Who cares if you lose your regeneration for a few rounds at some random point in time long after combat is over.

[Werephilosopher]

If it isn't official errata it does not count as an official rules change. Rules of the Game, Wiz CustServ, etc. are functionally opinions as far as the rules are concerned.

I don't mean "official" as in "this is RAW," I mean it as in "WotC suggested interpreting it like this." And since you have to interpret it one way or the other, I'd say WotC's mere suggestion for one side is a point in its favor, even if it still isn't RAW.

[The Insanity]

Been done in my games. Didn't make the PC undefeatable.

[Uncle Pine]

Nah, it's trivial to become immune to poison. There is a second level spell that delays the effect of troll bane for hours. Who cares if you lose your regeneration for a few rounds at some random point in time long after combat is over.

Funny, it never occurred to me that trollbane was treated as a poison. This makes it immensely less useful against nonstandard regenerating creatures.

[Chronos]

By the rules as written, the trick works. By the rules as they should be, it doesn't. Make clear which you're asking about, and you have your answer.

And another way to deal with Searing Spell is to gain multiple sources of regeneration. For instance, you could start with Trollblooded (bypassed by fire and acid), and then pick up immunity to fire and acid through the method of your choice (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit is the best way for fire, since it's instantaneous). Then, go to Hell. Specifically, go to a Shriver (magical locations described in whichever Fiendish Codex deals with the Hells). Shrivers torture a subject for a lot of nasty damage, but if you survive (which will be made a lot easier by your trollblooded regeneration), you can get regeneration bypassed only by good or chaotic attacks. It lasts for a year, but that time can be extended indefinitely by performing vile or obeisant acts (some of the options for obeisant acts are quite unobjectionable, even for good characters).

Put it all together, and the only way to damage you is with searing fire with an alignment descriptor, and that's hard to come by. For even more protection, take six levels of Horizon Walker for aligned planar terrain, and now you're immune to effects that only affect certain alignments, which covers most sources of aligned damage.

[Jack_Simth]

By the rules as written, the trick works. By the rules as they should be, it doesn't. Make clear which you're asking about, and you have your answer.

And another way to deal with Searing Spell is to gain multiple sources of regeneration. For instance, you could start with Trollblooded (bypassed by fire and acid), and then pick up immunity to fire and acid through the method of your choice (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit is the best way for fire, since it's instantaneous). Then, go to Hell. Specifically, go to a Shriver (magical locations described in whichever Fiendish Codex deals with the Hells). Shrivers torture a subject for a lot of nasty damage, but if you survive (which will be made a lot easier by your trollblooded regeneration), you can get regeneration bypassed only by good or chaotic attacks. It lasts for a year, but that time can be extended indefinitely by performing vile or obeisant acts (some of the options for obeisant acts are quite unobjectionable, even for good characters).

Put it all together, and the only way to damage you is with searing fire with an alignment descriptor, and that's hard to come by. For even more protection, take six levels of Horizon Walker for aligned planar terrain, and now you're immune to effects that only affect certain alignments, which covers most sources of aligned damage.

Checking... Feindish Codex II, page 52-54. Regeneration 1 gained after 4 rounds, which requires passing four Fort saves and Four Will saves, DC 15-23 (depending) ... and then making four DC 20 Concentration checks and four DC (Unspecified) escape artist checks. And each round from when you start, you take 2d20 damage until you're out. The full set to get Regen 5 and the ability to steal some healing takes 9 rounds in (and 18 saves) and then the four to get out again.

And... yeah, many of the "Acts of Obeisance" (page 31, same book) are just Lawful acts, not Evil ones. Swearing Fealty to a leader you know (or don't), disciplining an underling, resolving a dispute through lawful processes, accepting a legal judgement against yourself, executing a lawful sentence of corporeal punishment, following a stupid (in your view) rule, et cetera? Yeah, there's a fair number of things in there a paladin could get away with, no problems.

[Cruiser1]

Put it all together, and the only way to damage you is with searing fire with an alignment descriptor, and that's hard to come by.
Actually, it's easy to come by. Cast the level 4 spell Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM) and all your spells get the [Good] descriptor. (And they do 1.5x damage to evil creatures, so it's a nice buff to have Persisted.) Now you can simply Fireball with the Searing Spell metamagic feat to get past the double regeneration.

To be effectively immune to damage, another approach instead of Regeneration combined with non-lethal immunity, is to have don't-die-at-minus-10-hp combined with stay-conscious-below-0-hp. In other words, cast Delay Death (don't die at -10) and Beastland Ferocity (stay conscious below 0).

[Fouredged Sword]

This is why you also get high fire resistance to top your immunity. Searing spell does nothing to bypass resistance. FR30 is not to hard to get, and that means a fire spell needs to deal 60 damage before it touches your HP.

[AmberVael]

This is why you also get high fire resistance to top your immunity. Searing spell does nothing to bypass resistance. FR30 is not to hard to get, and that means a fire spell needs to deal 60 damage before it touches your HP.

It does, actually. It ignores fire resistance entirely- its the very first phrase of the feat.

A searing spell is so hot that it ignores the resistance to fire of creatures affected by the spell...

[Solaris]

If it isn't official errata it does not count as an official rules change. Rules of the Game, Wiz CustServ, etc. are functionally opinions as far as the rules are concerned.

As I recall, they've also been known to contradict themselves as well as each other with their rulings. "Opinion" is a very good way to define what they wrote.

[Anthrowhale]

Nah, it's trivial to become immune to poison.

This is why I like Sertrous's Poisoner's Breath ability. Sertrous is one of the Elder Evils and Poisoner's Breath says:


This breath suppresses any immunity to poison a victim possesses...

It's a unique ability that you can leverage into an immunity-proof attack. The steps are:

(1) Summon Sertrous.
(2) Tame Sertrous.
(3) Disjunction.
(4) Expose to Poisoner's Breath.
(5) Use the Poison Spell feat with Troll-Bane on something like [Maximized][Empowered] Greater Harm to deliver the pain.

Of course, if non-lethal + regeneration doesn't provide immunity to damage the above is pointless and you avoid all the roleplaying/plot opportunities associated with step 1 :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

As I recall, they've also been known to contradict themselves as well as each other with their rulings. "Opinion" is a very good way to define what they wrote.

Reminds me of an FAQ I read for some of the eberron books. Within a couple pages of each other, you get opposite answers for if sub-races can have dragonmarks of the main race (i.e, can duergar have dwarf dragonmarks, can drow have elven dragonmark).

[Chronos]

Quoth Cruiser1:

Actually, it's easy to come by. Cast the level 4 spell Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM) and all your spells get the [Good] descriptor. (And they do 1.5x damage to evil creatures, so it's a nice buff to have Persisted.) Now you can simply Fireball with the Searing Spell metamagic feat to get past the double regeneration.
Doesn't that also make it do no damage to good creatures, or am I remembering something else?

[Feint's End]

Regeneration + non-lethal damage immunity = damage immunity! :smallbiggrin: A powerful combination and a major step toward optimizing an invulnerable character. Another way of getting it is with buffs: Shapechange into a creature with regeneration, then persist the spell Favor of the Martyr to be immune to non-lethal.

There are ways around this invulnerability, such as whatever forms of damage bypass the regeneration. There are ways to patch that, such as the spell or item of Energy Immunity (assuming elemental damage normally bypasses it) but there are ways around that as well, such as the Searing Spell feat that does fire damage that bypasses fire immunity.

Well AFAIK you can get damage immunity at level one involving some symbiotic cheese. Basically you get regeneration, non-lethal immunity and immunity to fire and acid via the template. Don't know how it's done exactly but you should be able to find it via a quick Google search.

[Necroticplague]

Well AFAIK you can get damage immunity at level one involving some symbiotic cheese. Basically you get regeneration, non-lethal immunity and immunity to fire and acid via the template. Don't know how it's done exactly but you should be able to find it via a quick Google search.

Basically, Symbiont is always a +1, regardless of what the Guest is (assuming you're the Host). Thus, as long as it becomes the right creature type at the end, pile on templates. Because of the LA+1, the creature would be ECL 2, not one.

So Troll-Blooded Human Crusader 1 as a Host.
Half-troll gheden half-Dragon (red) Half-dragon(black) unseelie fay greenbound Phase Wasp as a guest (apply templates from left to right, should go Magical Beast->Giant (for gheden)->dragon->fey->plant (for Symbiotic).

You keep the Special Qualities and feats of both, so you get Regeneration (from Host), Dead Nerves (Gheden, immune to nonlethal), Immunity to fire and acid (half-dragons), among various other goodies.

[Feint's End]

Basically, Symbiont is always a +1, regardless of what the Guest is (assuming you're the Host). Thus, as long as it becomes the right creature type at the end, pile on templates. Because of the LA+1, the creature would be ECL 2, not one.

So Troll-Blooded Human Crusader 1 as a Host.
Half-troll gheden half-Dragon (red) Half-dragon(black) unseelie fay greenbound Phase Wasp as a guest (apply templates from left to right, should go Magical Beast->Giant (for gheden)->dragon->fey->plant (for Symbiotic).

You keep the Special Qualities and feats of both, so you get Regeneration (from Host), Dead Nerves (Gheden, immune to nonlethal), Immunity to fire and acid (half-dragons), among various other goodies.

Thanks Necroticplague! That's one of the ways to do it (probably the simplest). Do note that this amount of cheese will almost certainly end with a book-shaped bruise in your face.