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View Full Version : I control the battlefield. Now what?



Rad
2007-05-24, 11:42 AM
I read the now mythical wizard guide by Logic Ninja, but there are a couple of points that elude me (I should use something with a fort save, but have none prepared today).
Save or Die spells are not to base your character around; can see that since, even if they are much more effective than fireballs, the last OoTS strip (456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)) was well clear about how anticlimatic they can be in the end (and then making the game less fun).
Battlefield control seems to be THE thing. Great. How? I understand it involves a lot of area spells like grease, spiked tentacles and the like; unfortunately your fighter friend would have as much trouble trying to enter the area and disable your foe... so can anybody help me in making some use of it?

Mr the Geoff
2007-05-24, 11:59 AM
The key is that you control the area.

Grease for instance is a 10ft square, this is a small enough area that your fighter buddy can get right up next to the poor sap, and the rogue can stand at a distance and sneak attack with a bow because the bad guy is now flat footed at least, or maybe flat on his backside.

Slow, sleep, color spray, glitterdust etc you just let the melee damage dealers walk in after you set the spell off and pick off their near helpless enemies one by one.

It's a matter of working out how not to catch your own team in the spell effect (and lightning bolts and fireballs have the same problem as well anyway)

Morty
2007-05-24, 12:16 PM
The thing is, when enemy is hampered by control spells, you have time to buff yourself and party, heal fighter and make enemy easy target for ranged weaponry and spells. At least that's what I think- I don't use them because they indeed are anticlimatic and make game less fun.
As for save-or-loose: well, sleeping, stunned etc. enemy is easily killabe by fighers.

Saph
2007-05-24, 12:32 PM
Battlefield control seems to be THE thing. Great. How? I understand it involves a lot of area spells like grease, spiked tentacles and the like; unfortunately your fighter friend would have as much trouble trying to enter the area and disable your foe... so can anybody help me in making some use of it?

Black Tentacles is so-so in my opinion - it's great if you win initiative and the enemies are all standing a good distance away, but since this describes none of the really dangerous fights my groups get into, I've never bothered to use the spell.

Grease on the other hand is a great team spell. Many monsters are Large, with a 10-foot area, which means the spell will exactly cover the squares they're standing on. They then have to make a Reflex save or fall over and a Balance check next turn, and even if they make both of these they're flat-footed until then . . . which means the fighter and cleric have an easier time hitting them and the rogue can sneak attack them.

You can also use the battlefield control spells to split up a group of enemies: use something like Grease on a corridor to cut the enemy forces into two groups, then fight the groups one at a time.

Think about what just happened in Order of the Stick 452 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html): a giant enemy army is charging a breach in your walls, and they'll be there in a couple of rounds. Fireball is useless in that situation, since killing a couple of dozen enemies won't do anything to stop the other 9,976. But something like a Wall of Fire or Cloudkill would be devastating, especially if you wait till they're right in the gap.

- Saph

the_tick_rules
2007-05-24, 01:06 PM
cloud kill seems a universal fav.

Counterspin
2007-05-24, 01:12 PM
A lot of battlefield control's power comes from it's good buddy, wolf pack tactics. If you can disable, distract, disarm a portion of the enemy for a few rounds, your fighter friend doesn't have to go over and brave the conditions of your effects. You just kill the guys who aren't currently in the effect. There's fewer of them, which means that you're taking less damage, which makes the fight much easier.

valadil
2007-05-24, 01:29 PM
Even if you aren't killing the enemy with your spells you can still make a huge impact with good battlefield control. Something simple that hampers movement, like entangle or solid fog for instance, can be used to great effect if used properly. The idea is to separate your enemies into those that can interact with the PCs and those that have to spend a few rounds getting to you. Ideally, the ones that have to spend some time will spend a varying number of rounds. The goal is to funnel your enemies to you over time so that the whole party has a series of encounters against just one enemy. Much easier to fight five 5 on 1 combat than one 5 on 5 combat.

Telonius
2007-05-24, 01:50 PM
Battlefield Control allows you to concentrate fire. While one or more of your enemies are disabled/tangled/whatever, they can't hurt you. So, you concentrate your attacks on the ones that aren't affected. Zero in on one guy, kill him, move on to the next.

Overly simple example: you have two enemies, of equal danger to you. Your group can either: a) kill one of them in a round or b) take them both down to half hitpoints in a round. a) is the better option, since then they only have maximum of three actions to hurt you; minimum of one action to hurt you if you win initiative the second round. Option b) gives them a guaranteed two actions to hurt you, possibly four if they beat your initiative. So, if your wizard disables one of them during the first round, you have the potential of not getting attacked at all as you kill the other, unaffected guy.

Like I said, extremely simple example, and there are all kinds of other factors that enter into it. But that's the basic idea of battlefield control spells: Prevent a bunch of people from hurting you for a little while, and kill the others in the meantime.

Rad
2007-05-24, 01:51 PM
thank you for all the tactics, more or less detailed... keep going, I am getting quite interested in this "Batman for dummies" :smallsmile:
The idea to make a too powerful class use its abilitiesa in a support role sounds pretty good for what my group tends to be.

Morty
2007-05-24, 01:58 PM
The idea to make a too powerful class use its abilitiesa in a support role sounds pretty good for what my group tends to be.

Actually I belive battlefield control spells are one of the main reasons of wizard's brokeness, but maybe it's just me.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 02:12 PM
cloud kill seems a universal fav.It's very useful. It kills lower HD foes outright, and against other foes it deals Constitution damage whether they make the save or not. The cloud also lasts a long time, at 10 rounds per caster level. While the cloud moving 10 feet each round can be inconvenient, if your foes don't have the choice of moving around it to approach (say, a natural wall on one side and a wall of force on the other making a 15-foot corridor) it can keep them away for a while.

That's what battlefield control is all about, forcing your enemies to be where you want them to be.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-24, 02:18 PM
Actually I belive battlefield control spells are one of the main reasons of wizard's brokeness, but maybe it's just me.

No it's not just you.

Battlefield control is about 60% of what makes wizards broken.

Rad
2007-05-24, 05:04 PM
Actually I belive battlefield control spells are one of the main reasons of wizard's brokeness, but maybe it's just me.

I am totally available to believe that, the point is that it still leaves something to be done by the other characters, making the respective players feel useful. What is bad on save-or-dies is that the other party members did absolutely nothing useful in the process.

kemmotar
2007-05-24, 05:36 PM
Well most likely a level 20 wizard, even with just class levels, no PrC can take down a whole army...using existing landmarks, well placed spells, a few AoE summons...
you can even dominate the enemy commander the day before and give them bogus strategies to play right into your hands while sneaking in their camp and poisoning food and drink...
It all depends on the spells...
for example a real good use of mirage arcana spell would come in near a cliff...well the thing is the cliff isnt really there...all they see is the road up ahead...until they start falling into the cliff
nightmare terrain should route quite a few people...disintigrating the leader will always be bad for morale...
If you have a few crafting feats such as golems that's always helpful...a few gloom golems (the ones that "cry" all the time from MMIII)...then raise a few of the fallen as undead...
Also grease the main gate and the surrounding area when they reach the main gate set thing on fire with a nice fireball...also the summons can flank the armies a tornado "aka air elemental" crossing over and over in the middle of the enemy army...
and probably another million things that can happen when you place area spells so you guide them where you want them...and all this without needing any help from party members...

Saph
2007-05-24, 05:37 PM
I am totally available to believe that, the point is that it still leaves something to be done by the other characters, making the respective players feel useful. What is bad on save-or-dies is that the other party members did absolutely nothing useful in the process.

Actually, a big part of the reason battlefield control is effective is because it leaves something to be done by the other characters. Spells like Glitterdust work best when everyone else in the party is attacking the enemy. In this kind of situation doing damage is helpful, but kind of redundant - you've got three people doing that already. But if you blind the enemy suddenly everyone else is about three times as effective in melee.

When everything goes well the sequence is:

1) Battle starts
2) Wizard debuffs/cripples/nerfs monster
3) Rest of party surrounds monster and stomps it into the ground while it's weakened
4) Loot body

- Saph

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-24, 05:57 PM
1) Battle starts
2) Wizard debuffs/cripples/nerfs monster
3) Rest of party surrounds monster and stomps it into the ground while it's weakened
4) Loot body

- Saph

Precisely! At low levels, step two involves Grease, Sleep, Color Spay, and Glitterdust; at higher levels, it involves Fear or Confusion; in the endgame one relies on Irresistible Dance delivered with Arcane Reach or Split Ray Empowered Enervation. The basic principle, however, remains more or less the same.

Dark_Wind
2007-05-24, 06:47 PM
I am totally available to believe that, the point is that it still leaves something to be done by the other characters, making the respective players feel useful. What is bad on save-or-dies is that the other party members did absolutely nothing useful in the process.

Hit it on the head there, I think. Sure, good battlefield control is far stronger than anything most classes can do, but since it doesn't marginalize the other characters, few players will complain about a battlefield control mage in the party.