Help me build a tavern stronghold

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I"m currently working on a 7th level bard. In the backstory and the fluff for the character one of his goals is to own and operate his own brewery/tavern. My DM and I discussed it and I looked over the rules for business in the DMGII. After looking them over I decided it wouldn't work; the high capital and low return was just too much and, with the amount of capital needed to make it function, the character wouldn't be equipped to deal with level appropriate challenges.

I talked it over with my DM and he approved the use of the land lord feat from Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. With that in mind, the brewery/tavern will also function as the parties base of operations. While I'm excited at the prospects I'm a little overwhelmed looking over all the possibilities.

I also need to figure out how to make it work (in appearance) as a business (I won't actually get any money back from it, but for fluff I'd like it to have everything needed to work as a high-end micro-brewery/inn) while keeping sections of it safe from invasion and offering the party a secure location. Though I'll never be able to make it DM-proof, I'd like it to be safe enough for us to relax a little.

Because much of our time will be spent adventuring, I can't focus too heavily on financing the stronghold. I'll need to find a balance between gold spent on equipment upgrades and stronghold upgrades.

To recap:

1) Please help me plan out a tavern/inn that can also function as a safe house for our party (maybe it has a panic room or secret basement?)

2) Please help me balance money spent on the stronghold and equipment.

[FocusWolf413]

Set it up at a major crossroads. You need the business. See if you can buy the land.

It would be easier if you made it the center of a town. A town would naturally form around the stronghold. You need food, farmers, and guards.

You should have a palisade around the inn. Have perhaps 10-20 guards, armed with a heavy shield/tower shield, sap, heavy mace or longsword, and a dagger. There should be an armory with two more than one heavy crossbow for each guard, forty more bolts than forty bolts for each guard, and two more than one longspear/glaive/other polearm with reach for every guard.

All weapons other than knives must be checked at the door. Any fighting outside of the pits is strictly forbidden, under punishment of ______. Any arguments may be settled in the gladiator pits. ONLY willing, uncoerced participants may fight. All fights are to the death.

[Red Fel]

Set it up at a major crossroads. You need the business. See if you can buy the land.

It would be easier if you made it the center of a town. A town would naturally form around the stronghold. You need food, farmers, and guards.

You should have a palisade around the inn. Have perhaps 10-20 guards, armed with a heavy shield/tower shield, sap, heavy mace or longsword, and a dagger. There should be an armory with two more than one heavy crossbow for each guard, forty more bolts than forty bolts for each guard, and two more than one longspear/glaive/other polearm with reach for every guard.

All weapons other than knives must be checked at the door. Any fighting outside of the pits is strictly forbidden, under punishment of ______. Any arguments may be settled in the gladiator pits. ONLY willing, uncoerced participants may fight. All fights are to the death.

Pretty much this. The way to get there is easy too.

Step one, build the inn and tavern. Brewery, bar, rooms above for a rest, suites in the back for the party. Place it at a crossroads of two major roads, close enough that the regional patrols will stop by, but far enough that a stiff drink and a good night's rest at a slight markup will still be a welcomed respite. Travelers will appreciate the stop-over. Think of a highway rest stop - that's what you're aiming for to start.

Eventually, business picks up. You'll hire a few people to staff the inn and pub, keep it running in your absence. You'll hire a few more to guard the area, pay them in room and board. Expand the facility to include a proper stables, a few more rest wings, a place for merchant caravans. As your business thrives, you hire more people to protect it. Be sure that you own not just the land on which the pub is built, but the surrounding area as well, for reasons that will soon become clear.

Here's the funny thing. Where there are people to protect, there are people who want protection. As you acquire more guards and build a nice wooden barricade around the pub - which starts to resemble a small fort - people will come to you. Craftsmen who want to set up a shop on a trade route. Farmers who want to work the land outside of the city, but still along the major roads. Lumberjacks and miners looking for a base camp while they loot the wilds. And your now-fortified inn and pub will be the perfect home base. And it will grow. First, they'll be living out of your inn, but eventually they'll want land - your land, which they'll rent from you - to set up places of their own. That wooden fence will expand to accommodate a smithy, some small houses and shops, and so forth. Eventually you'll trade your wooden fence for a solid stone wall, that open gate for a nice iron portcullis. Your inn will still be the centerpiece of the town, of course, and likely lend it its name, but you and your party will have a new home in the nice chateau overlooking the town. The guards will no longer be housed in the inn, but in a separate barracks.

Of course, your brewery will still be the only game in town when it comes to a stiff drink after a long day's work.

[Flickerdart]

It doesn't seem fair that you're required to pay for upgrading the business, but will never see any profits from it. After the initial investment (the Landlord feat), surely the business should be able to pay for itself?

[Alistaroc]

I'd ask your DM about a small monthly or yearly income coming from the inn. Nothing huge, just something that will pay out over time.

A common meal, and common lodging costs 8sp according to the PHB. Say you make 25% profit, so 2sp for each person that buys a meal and stays the night.
I'd just throw in some roughly approximated numbers(check with your DM) about how many people you'll get at any given location, then just calculate your profit. As the town is built up around it, just raise the number of people that stop in.

[FocusWolf413]

As the town grows, you need to make sure you have all of the necessary craftsmen. You need a blacksmith of some kind to make to make and repair tools, weapons, armor, etc. You need to have a person who is skilled at woodworking/carpentry to build and repair houses, wagons, and the like. You need people who buy and sell horses, donkeys, mules, and oxen. You need to set up a pawn shop of some kind for people who need to buy or sell stuff. Have an area for a market to spring up. Try to get the church of a travel god to send a priest. See if you can get a wizard or bard to set up shop to gather stories, buy and sell information, and provide spellcasting services. Make sure you have everything you need.

Somewhere in the town, make an underground stone bunker. That would make a secure base of operations.

[BowStreetRunner]

Am I the only one who saw the topic and immediately thought of a tavern surrounded by a moat filled with beer?

[Werephilosopher]

The whole thing about letting a town build up around the tavern is pretty neat, but here's an alternative: go underground. If your tavern is in an existing city, or you just don't want it to obviously look like an adventuring base, make it a completely normal tavern with tunnels to underground chambers hidden in the basement. Easier to protect, easier to conceal, and it's more space to store kegs of beer.

[FocusWolf413]

The whole thing about letting a town build up around the tavern is pretty neat, but here's an alternative: go underground. If your tavern is in an existing city, or you just don't want it to obviously look like an adventuring base, make it a completely normal tavern with tunnels to underground chambers hidden in the basement. Easier to protect, easier to conceal, and it's more space to store kegs of beer.

Storing beer underground is a necessity. It needs to be kept cool.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Am I the only one who saw the topic and immediately thought of a tavern surrounded by a moat filled with beer?

That's silly. The purpose of a moat is to keep people out, not attract them.

Besides, everyone who came would get drunk before they even got across, and- ooooh...

...Wait, they wouldn't pay for moat-drinking!

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Pretty much this. The way to get there is easy too.

Step one, build the inn and tavern. Brewery, bar, rooms above for a rest, suites in the back for the party. Place it at a crossroads of two major roads, close enough that the regional patrols will stop by, but far enough that a stiff drink and a good night's rest at a slight markup will still be a welcomed respite. Travelers will appreciate the stop-over. Think of a highway rest stop - that's what you're aiming for to start.

Eventually, business picks up. You'll hire a few people to staff the inn and pub, keep it running in your absence. You'll hire a few more to guard the area, pay them in room and board. Expand the facility to include a proper stables, a few more rest wings, a place for merchant caravans. As your business thrives, you hire more people to protect it. Be sure that you own not just the land on which the pub is built, but the surrounding area as well, for reasons that will soon become clear.

Here's the funny thing. Where there are people to protect, there are people who want protection. As you acquire more guards and build a nice wooden barricade around the pub - which starts to resemble a small fort - people will come to you. Craftsmen who want to set up a shop on a trade route. Farmers who want to work the land outside of the city, but still along the major roads. Lumberjacks and miners looking for a base camp while they loot the wilds. And your now-fortified inn and pub will be the perfect home base. And it will grow. First, they'll be living out of your inn, but eventually they'll want land - your land, which they'll rent from you - to set up places of their own. That wooden fence will expand to accommodate a smithy, some small houses and shops, and so forth. Eventually you'll trade your wooden fence for a solid stone wall, that open gate for a nice iron portcullis. Your inn will still be the centerpiece of the town, of course, and likely lend it its name, but you and your party will have a new home in the nice chateau overlooking the town. The guards will no longer be housed in the inn, but in a separate barracks.

Of course, your brewery will still be the only game in town when it comes to a stiff drink after a long day's work.

Set it up at a major crossroads. You need the business. See if you can buy the land.

It would be easier if you made it the center of a town. A town would naturally form around the stronghold. You need food, farmers, and guards.

You should have a palisade around the inn. Have perhaps 10-20 guards, armed with a heavy shield/tower shield, sap, heavy mace or longsword, and a dagger. There should be an armory with two more than one heavy crossbow for each guard, forty more bolts than forty bolts for each guard, and two more than one longspear/glaive/other polearm with reach for every guard.

All weapons other than knives must be checked at the door. Any fighting outside of the pits is strictly forbidden, under punishment of ______. Any arguments may be settled in the gladiator pits. ONLY willing, uncoerced participants may fight. All fights are to the death.

This isn't what I was originally planning, but it's a good idea.


The whole thing about letting a town build up around the tavern is pretty neat, but here's an alternative: go underground. If your tavern is in an existing city, or you just don't want it to obviously look like an adventuring base, make it a completely normal tavern with tunnels to underground chambers hidden in the basement. Easier to protect, easier to conceal, and it's more space to store kegs of beer.

This is what I was originally planning.


I'd ask your DM about a small monthly or yearly income coming from the inn. Nothing huge, just something that will pay out over time.

A common meal, and common lodging costs 8sp according to the PHB. Say you make 25% profit, so 2sp for each person that buys a meal and stays the night.
I'd just throw in some roughly approximated numbers(check with your DM) about how many people you'll get at any given location, then just calculate your profit. As the town is built up around it, just raise the number of people that stop in.

It doesn't seem fair that you're required to pay for upgrading the business, but will never see any profits from it. After the initial investment (the Landlord feat), surely the business should be able to pay for itself?

My DM and I came to this agreement because of the rules in the DMGII. With those rules for running a business I would need to invest a bare minimum of 32,000gp up-front for a small chance of making, at max, around 50gp per week. Because much of the character's time would be spent adventuring, it's more likely I'd fail the necessary check and loose more money.

With the land lord feat I get an allowance to spend ont he stronghold and a return on investments on the stronghold. I think that would be the 'profit' from the tavern.


The bigger issue I have is how to plan it and construct it (with relation to the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook rules).

At 9th level I have 25,000gp to use in construction and another 25,000 per level.

How would you lay it out and what would you construct first?

The tavern section is not that hard to realize, but I'm not sure how to make it defensible on that allowance. I can put in some of my own money, but not more than around 15% per level at 9th and after.

[BowStreetRunner]

My DM and I came to this agreement because of the rules in the DMGII. With those rules for running a business I would need to invest a bare minimum of 32,000gp up-front for a small chance of making, at max, around 50gp per week. Because much of the character's time would be spent adventuring, it's more likely I'd fail the necessary check and loose more money.
That's not workable at all - most profitable businesses should be in the black within 5 years, and at 50gp per week it would take you over 12 years just to clear your initial investment.

The bigger issue I have is how to plan it and construct it (with relation to the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook rules).

At 9th level I have 25,000gp to use in construction and another 25,000 per level.

How would you lay it out and what would you construct first?

The tavern section is not that hard to realize, but I'm not sure how to make it defensible on that allowance. I can put in some of my own money, but not more than around 15% per level at 9th and after.
There are lots of different sorts of 'taverns' you could build. Some are just a place to get a drink, no more. Others serve meals and drinks. Others have rooms for sleeping. There are also places with gambling and/or entertainment. Each has need of a public area and then the private areas including kitchen, cellar, etc. I would first start by creating a wish list of features you want to include and begin pricing those out.

[Almarck]

Uh, Tib, I hate to tell you this, but economics, business, and demographics rules in dungeons and dragons are quite notorious for being nonsensical. This is the result on being rather half and half over what the rules are meant to similation or function: a game system for determining the upkeep of adventuring or a system to simulate the real world:

~For instance, the infamous ladder and 10 foot pole trick: you can saw the ladders into 10 ft poles and make a profit from doing it in bulk because the poles are worth significantly more than the ladders that make them up.

~Masterwork prices for armor are half as much as they are for weapons, despite armor being significantly heavier.

~The wages of commoners as well as whatever taxes they might generate are so meager that it's a wonder that Kings of small countries could afford to pay for their castles as well as anyone who mans them as well as decking anyone soldier or themselves in decent magical gear.

Regardless of what you do, you'll be behind in adventuring funds without the game progressing rapidly and accruing for your investment. The point of Strongholds are as a time and money sink to do something outside of adventuring.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Uh, Tib, I hate to tell you this, but economics, business, and demographics rules in dungeons and dragons are quite notorious for being nonsensical. This is the result on being rather half and half over what the rules are meant to similation or function: a game system for determining the upkeep of adventuring or a system to simulate the real world:

~For instance, the infamous ladder and 10 foot pole trick: you can saw the ladders into 10 ft poles and make a profit from doing it in bulk because the poles are worth significantly more than the ladders that make them up.

~Masterwork prices for armor are half as much as they are for weapons, despite armor being significantly heavier.

~The wages of commoners as well as whatever taxes they might generate are so meager that it's a wonder that Kings of small countries could afford to pay for their castles as well as anyone who mans them as well as decking anyone soldier or themselves in decent magical gear.

Regardless of what you do, you'll be behind in adventuring funds without the game progressing rapidly and accruing for your investment. The point of Strongholds are as a time and money sink to do something outside of adventuring.

I understand this. As a player, I'm not looking to make a business. The character's interests are in starting a business. I'm using the land lord feat to supply me with an easy way of generating a 'tavern'. I'm not looking to make money on it. It's only a business in the fluff, not the crunch, and I'm good with that.


That's not workable at all - most profitable businesses should be in the black within 5 years, and at 50gp per week it would take you over 12 years just to clear your initial investment.

Which is precisely why my DM and I have made the arrangement we have. I get a tavern in-story without the massive black-hole that the DMGII says is necessary, but I can not make money from or out of the tavern (crunch-wise). In essence, the money from the land lord feat is used to get a tavern. The money I get every level from the feat is the profit from the business that is put back into the business.


There are lots of different sorts of 'taverns' you could build. Some are just a place to get a drink, no more. Others serve meals and drinks. Others have rooms for sleeping. There are also places with gambling and/or entertainment. Each has need of a public area and then the private areas including kitchen, cellar, etc. I would first start by creating a wish list of features you want to include and begin pricing those out.

It started off as a micro-brewery in my head. Now I'm thinking it would work better as an in with a micro-brewery attached.

You advice is solid and I'll start working on that. In addition to what is needed for the tavern itself, what would you recommend for keeping it safe? The BBEG has some serious clout; if the tavern is in a city I wouldn't be able to rely on the city guard for security. IF it's outside a city, there are raiders and bandits and the like to worry about.

Thoughts?

[FocusWolf413]

It doesn't matter how you incorporate the microbrewery. That's all fluff. When you plopped the building down at the crossroads, the signs you put up could have said something like "_____'s Inn. Hot food, clean sheets, soft beds, and the best ale east of _____." It's not nearly as important as the details about where the inn is, what it sells, who provides services, how it's kept safe, and why people come.

Also, talk to your DM about your inn possibly making more than what the DMG2 says, even if you just pump it back into your town. Your location is perfect for increasing the prices a bit. You can have betting on the deathmatches in the pits. You can tax the surrounding farmers and craftsmen. Think of it not as an inn, but as small merchant hub.
Ask if your inn can put away money/resources for an emergency. If disaster strikes, backup food, weapons, building materials, water, and most importantly, booze, will keep everyone in order.

[BowStreetRunner]

It doesn't matter how you incorporate the microbrewery. That's all fluff...It's not nearly as important as the details about where the inn is, what it sells, who provides services, how it's kept safe, and why people come.
The reason I was focused on what goes in the tavern is I am looking at adding the rooms and other features using Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. So what rooms are going to be added? What features in each room. At this point these are the things that actually come with an in-game mechanic that factors into the cost.

[Ruethgar]

So your inn can be considered two income sources, ale and a place to sleep. So you could get a tiny return on it. With Leadership you could have the farmers and innkeeper cohort paying you taxes for living there.

Do note that underground accomidations are easier to build via Knowledge Engineering DC 20 and Profession Miner with A&EG furniture prices building yourself.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I just (I mean, yesterday) read through nearly all of the SBG, so here's what I can come up with re:taverns and profit.

Page 6 on nearby features has a subheader:

The exact nature of the income source varies, but they all work the same way. Each income source provides 1% of the stronghold's final price anually as pure profit - above and beyond labour costs and other expenses.

Note that having an income source nearby (in this case, thirsty people) increases the overall cost of your keep by 5% per source. If your DM allows you to have 10 income sources, your tavern costs 50% of the base cost extra, but it also provides 10% of the total cost per year in profit.

Putting some basics together - this is just an inn, no party base attached.
2 basic tavern units @ 900 gp each, seats 40 patrons, 4 servants required (I highly recommend getting unseen servants to do this job, saves a lot on bedrooms)
4 basic bedroom suites @ 800 gp each, sleeps 4-8 patrons (depending on what beds you put in, and you'll also need servants to clean these)
9 basic bedrooms @ 900 gp each, sleeps 16-32 patrons (idem)
3 basic stables @ 1000 gp each, stables 18 horses, 3 grooms required (can be unseen servants)
2 basic baths @ 400 gp each, take only 1/2 ss each (the rest is all 1 each)
2 basic kitchens @ 2000 gp each, serves 30 patrons, 2 cooks required (can be unseen servants)
4 basic storage units @ 250 gp each
= 22300 gp total
+50% for 10 income sources = 33450 gp total cost (assuming no other cost modifiers)
= 3345 gp/year profit.
The stables are a bit removed from the rest of the building, and are connected with freestanding walls, say two walls about 40' long. Note that wooden walls are free aboveground, and unworked stone belowground, so those are the walls this tavern is using.

You have a 60x20 ft. stable, then a 60x40 open courtyard with the freestanding walls (door in one of the walls), then a 60x60 tavern building, with a door opening into the courtyard (total plot size: 60x120, 18 ss ground floor of which 6 empty, 24 ss total). The 60x60 (9 ss) building is made up of a 2 ss common room (that means about 5x4 feet per patron, less than a full square, at maximum capacity), a 2 ss kitchen (yes, that's a big kitchen, I'd allocate some kitchen space to the tavern side, like the area behind the bar), and 4 ss storage (loot! food! drink!) in the cellar below. The remaining 5 ss ground floor is 4.5 basic bedrooms (9 rooms) and a bath. Then your second floor has 4 bedroom suites (4 ss total), the remaining 4.5 basic bedrooms (9 rooms), and the remaining bath.


If you're going for a cheap, rustic tavern, you can probably use servant's quarters or even barracks in place of bedrooms.


Beer.
Wine.
Rum.
Whiskey.
Whisky.
Scotch.
Bourbon.
Meals.
Bedrooms.
Keeping messenger horses.

[noob]

Then with the rest of the money from land lord build a monument so awesome beautiful and perfect that your income will skyrocket thanks to the 10% of the cost of the fortress as income.
Or just place tons of traps and make the fortress able to fly but that is boring.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yanno, having people come in and out of your stronghold can make for a great cover, but has the problem of drunk people wandering around the place...Or people pretending to be drunk. Do you want a tavern, or a brewery? If you build it on a river, you can just export the booze via the river without the trouble of too many people wandering around the place.

[FocusWolf413]

The reason I was focused on what goes in the tavern is I am looking at adding the rooms and other features using Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. So what rooms are going to be added? What features in each room. At this point these are the things that actually come with an in-game mechanic that factors into the cost.

Build your inn out of brick or stone. It needs to have several floors.

The first floor should have the sign-in desk, the bar/dining area with enough seating for about 50-200 (depending on stuff), and the kitchen.

The second and third floors should be rooms. You need to have some cheap rooms, some merchant class rooms, and luxury suites.

Cheap rooms can be really small, maybe like 5x8. You really just need a straw bed and a small table in those.

Merchant rooms should be at least 10×15. Put in a desk and chair, ink, quills, paper, refreshments, dresser/trunk with lock, and a decent bed.

Luxury suites should be big. Use your imagination. Provide a large fluffy feather bed, only the finest sheets, and expensive furniture.

The first basement should have the bathhouse, larder, brewery, and storage.

Ten feel below that, have your bunker and meeting room.

There needs to be a guard tower. That should also include the armory.

Create a 10' stone wall around the town.

Your fighting pit should have a 40' radius with a 15' wooden wall around it. Seating for 200 should be on one side above the wall.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I just (I mean, yesterday) read through nearly all of the SBG, so here's what I can come up with re:taverns and profit.

Page 6 on nearby features has a subheader:


Note that having an income source nearby (in this case, thirsty people) increases the overall cost of your keep by 5% per source. If your DM allows you to have 10 income sources, your tavern costs 50% of the base cost extra, but it also provides 10% of the total cost per year in profit.


I had totally missed this in the book. I've started on building the tavern level by level (based on the money provided by Lard Lord). The profit from the stronghold will help offset the cost of labour and security, which is nice, and should allow for a means of the tavern having a constant and stable supply of food and drink.

This is something I've been having trouble wit, however, because the book stipulates you should use the cost of meals from PHB to determine the cost of food and drink, but you're already paying for the labour of a cook or two or three, and I'm fairly certain a meal on that chart includes the cost of labour.


Yanno, having people come in and out of your stronghold can make for a great cover, but has the problem of drunk people wandering around the place...Or people pretending to be drunk. Do you want a tavern, or a brewery? If you build it on a river, you can just export the booze via the river without the trouble of too many people wandering around the place.

I've been toying with this. I'm no longer think a secret base is a good idea, but having more secure bedrooms for the party and some private, personal spaces they can make use of (library, study, alchemist lab etc). I'm thinking these could go int he basement and be protected by a secret door with either an amazing lock or arcane lock.

[Eisfalken]

Instead of a single large building, think about this as a walled compound with a few buildings. The way I'd build it is as follows; you determine quality based on your budget:

Inn & Tavern
Basement: 2 servant's quarters (for the tavern and dining hall servants); 1 bedrooms (for cooks); 2 basic bathrooms (shared by innkeeper, cooks and servants); 2 storage (for food, drinks, tools, spare furniture, etc.)
1st Floor (Tavern): 2 common rooms (good general congregation area; also makes a really good place for bands to perform and folks to cut a dance); 1 tavern room; 1 dining halls; 1 kitchen; 1 office (for the innkeeper business); 1 basic bedroom (for innkeeper)
2nd Floor (Common Lodgings): 3 servant's quarters (parties of up to 6 people each); 4 basic bedrooms; 2 basic bathrooms
3rd Floor (Fancy Lodgings): 2 fancy bedroom suites; 4 fancy bathrooms; 2 fancy bedrooms

Manor or Tower (personal lodgings)
Basement: 1 barracks (for personal guards/soldiers); 1 armory; 1 smithy; 1 storage (for furniture, tools, sundry mundane gear)
1st Floor: 1 common area; 1 trophy hall OR chapel (if there's a PC cleric); 1 dining hall; 1 kitchen; 1 office (for butler/steward to run household business)
2nd Floor: 4 bedrooms (for PCs); 2 fancy baths
3rd Floor: 1 bedroom suite (for your PC); 1 bath; 3 spaces of libraries (use for downtime research and info gathering; I recommend History, Geography, Architecture & Engineering, and The Planes).

Stables & Warehouse
1st Floor: 4 stables; 4 storage
2nd Floor: 4 storage; open air area leading down to stables (to load pack animals and/or carts)

Brewery
1 workshop for Profession (brewer), for making beer
1 workshop for Craft (woodworking), for making barrels
1 workshop for Profession (farmer), for growing hops, grains, etc.
1 storage for tools and such

Worker's House
If using "income source" rules, get yourself 3 servant's quarters, 1 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1 dining hall, and 1 kitchen, to house the 20 workers needed to benefit from that option.

Make as much of this place hewn stone as you can, so fire isn't a problem. Walls should also be stone, but you don't need a gatehouse as much as a castle; just a really good gate and a few guards. (If something really nasty shows up, you want them to come get you anyway; you'll be more able to handle problems.) Don't bother burning money on the best mundane locks; magic is a better deterrent anyway.

Guards should be moderately armed; no more than maybe some medium armor, crossbows, some kind of good two-handed weapon with reach. Get them 2-3 guard dogs to help patrol the grounds; they have better Listen and Spot checks. Remember: these guys can't handle threats your level, so their main job is holding actions until you can get out there to boost them and/or engage.

There's loads of little amenities to get. Get yourself a wagon and some horses for land travel. If next to a river, consider building a dock and getting a good, low-crew ship to carry your around (if you have the money, theurgeme is amazing for long-distance sea travel); alternately, build a hangar for a dirigible or zepplin for air travel (or an elemental airship, if in Eberron). Keep lots of barrels, sacks, crates, etc. for transporting treasure (and keeping prying eyes off it).

If you got the big bucks, get items just for the stronghold. Lyre of building is obvious. Another good one is a decanter of endless water: it can put out fires, provide rudimentary plumbing, water your garden/farm, etc. Get glowing orb spheres (Spell Compendium) for your light sources.

Don't worry about being super-secret; that invites people to explore unusual things in the middle of nowhere. Hide yourself in plain sight. Use illusionary wall and secret doors to great effect to keep average snoops out of secret basement areas that connect every part of your compound to every other part. Use eternal wand of alarm for your main vaults and storage areas, while a few guards patrol the grounds with mundane means for regular thieves. The best way to secure your little estate is to mix and match mundane and magic. You may even consider keeping some secrets from the other PCs, just in case something compromises them.

Always, always, try to drag any BBEG that strikes at your stronghold away from at least the Inn/Tavern, if not somewhere outside the walls where you and your buddies can really turn it up.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

~snip~

The issue I run into then is financing. What I've whipped up on paper is essentially a tavern/inn. It has a library and a work space for brewing, but otherwise, it has a nice kitchen and good bedrooms. Even with wooden walls, I've been mostly over budget throughout the whole plan.

Something as big as your suggesting would leave my character penniless at every level. How would you recommend construct something on this scale on a budget?

[Inevitability]

Am I the only one who saw the topic and immediately thought of a tavern surrounded by a moat filled with beer?

Don't be silly! You'd want to fill it with much more alcoholic liquor. That way, you can actually set your moat on fire in case enemies start getting the upper hand. Just make sure to fireproof your walls.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The issue I run into then is financing. What I've whipped up on paper is essentially a tavern/inn. It has a library and a work space for brewing, but otherwise, it has a nice kitchen and good bedrooms. Even with wooden walls, I've been mostly over budget throughout the whole plan.

Something as big as your suggesting would leave my character penniless at every level. How would you recommend construct something on this scale on a budget?
You can use a Lyre of Building to cut costs by 30%, because you essentially won't need any labour.
You can use fabricate to save 5% on basic spaces, 20% on fancy spaces, and 50% on luxury spaces.
You can use unseen servant to replace any job that a commoner could do.
You can use move earth to save 3% per ground floor space (note: this should probably be 3% for ground floor spaces, but RAW it's 3% per ground floor space - it uses the different wording throughout, and it's not like fabricate).
You can use wood shape to save 5% per space with wooden walls.
You can use wall of stone to get free stone walls, then stone shape to save 5% per space with stone walls.

If you have at least, say, 15 ground floor spaces, and you stack the 5% and 3% discounts for move earth and wood shape, you get 8% * 15 spaces = 120% cost reduction overall. Yeah.

[FocusWolf413]

If you have at least, say, 15 ground floor spaces, and you stack the 5% and 3% discounts for move earth and wood shape, you get 8% * 15 spaces = 120% cost reduction overall. Yeah.

Does someone want to add that to the dysfunction handbook?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

You can use a Lyre of Building to cut costs by 30%, because you essentially won't need any labour.
You can use fabricate to save 5% on basic spaces, 20% on fancy spaces, and 50% on luxury spaces.
You can use unseen servant to replace any job that a commoner could do.
You can use move earth to save 3% per ground floor space (note: this should probably be 3% for ground floor spaces, but RAW it's 3% per ground floor space - it uses the different wording throughout, and it's not like fabricate).
You can use wood shape to save 5% per space with wooden walls.
You can use wall of stone to get free stone walls, then stone shape to save 5% per space with stone walls.

If you have at least, say, 15 ground floor spaces, and you stack the 5% and 3% discounts for move earth and wood shape, you get 8% * 15 spaces = 120% cost reduction overall. Yeah.

I don't have fabricate as a spell, so I'd have to pay for castings of the spell (unless I want to leave it to chance with UMD). The same for pretty much every spell you've mentioned. In that case, is it still cost efficient?

I honestly haven't checked the Lyre of Building, but I will.

Thanks for the tips.

[noob]

Do you have stone wall?
And what level is your caster?
(The discount is higher for higher caster level and ultimately it becomes free)
You could also find a cliff and dig up your fortress.(there is a cost reduction for that and finding the exact environment you want is easy with teleport ask for being teleported to a place looking like what you wish and you can get to it)

[Florian]

How about switching to more functional rules? Both, the business rules in PHB2 and Stronghold Builders are pretty bizarre and don't tend to deliver an meaningful results.
Try talking to your gm if PF downtime rules could be used in this case. (A basic Inn would cost around 1.3K, the brewery around the same, upgrading to a fort would be 5K and the building would generate a small income)

[Cirrylius]

That's silly. The purpose of a moat is to keep people out, not attract them.
Besides, everyone who came would get drunk before they even got across, and- ooooh...
...Wait, they wouldn't pay for moat-drinking!

Relax, it's just a gimmick for sweeps week. That 1gp holiday cover charge really pays for itself!

Well, okay, that and the alcoholic wizard you've got lodging in the second pantry.

Anyway, actual advice. If no one's mentioned it yet, look up Ultimate Campaign for Pathfinder; the rules are much more satisfying and streamlined and have employee/resources/location/profit bundled right in with the "raising buildings" rules.

Edit: Someone mentioned it:smallannoyed:

If you build fairly far outside city walls, remember that people want two things from lodgings in the wilderness; luxury and safety (also supplies, but that's understood if you're serving beer nuts and beds). Nobody cares about walnut paneling or brass fixtures when they're worried about thieving goblins sneaking around the caravan in the night, or hobgoblin scavenging parties kicking down the door and holding up the clientele, but in the same vein, the lure of warm beds and insobriety cools somewhat if the whole place is in grim dressed stone, with bars on the tiny windows and weapons within easy reach. The further away you are from help, the more people will want to hide in your big intimidating redoubt. The closer you get to city walls, the more people start requesting hot water bottles. Make sure to provide both in the right proportions, and it'll go a long way towards improving long-term popularity, and hence improving the stronghold itself.

Also? Specialty liquors from Arms & Equipment. When adventurers get out of that dusty tomb, they are thirsty.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Do you have stone wall?
And what level is your caster?
(The discount is higher for higher caster level and ultimately it becomes free)
You could also find a cliff and dig up your fortress.(there is a cost reduction for that and finding the exact environment you want is easy with teleport ask for being teleported to a place looking like what you wish and you can get to it)

Currently level 7 Bard working out the plan for when I'm level 9.

What I meant was that I don't have a caster. I would have to pay for the services of one (as per the PHB).


Relax, it's just a gimmick for sweeps week. That 1gp holiday cover charge really pays for itself!

Well, okay, that and the alcoholic wizard you've got lodging in the second pantry.

Anyway, actual advice. If no one's mentioned it yet, look up Ultimate Campaign for Pathfinder; the rules are much more satisfying and streamlined and have employee/resources/location/profit bundled right in with the "raising buildings" rules.

~snip~

Also? Specialty liquors from Arms & Equipment. When adventurers get out of that dusty tomb, they are thirsty.

I'll look into the rules, but they would need DM approval.

I was looking at The Arms & Equipment Guide and there's something that bothers me. I have craft: vinter, which is mentioned in the book, but nowhere do I find DCs for making alcohol.

[Flickerdart]

I was looking at The Arms & Equipment Guide and there's something that bothers me. I have craft: vinter, which is mentioned in the book, but nowhere do I find DCs for making alcohol.
Use the generic DCs - 5 for very simple, 10 for typical, 15 for high quality, and 20 for complex. Wine spans the range; even the DMG recognizes that there is fine wine (10gp for a bottle) and common wine (2sp for a pitcher).

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'll look into the rules, but they would need DM approval.


Update. MY DM has approved the rules from Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign and the inn has been constructed (or is being constructed) and I'm not planning out a Bardic college named after a famous brass dragon in the campaign. In total, it still cost me less than just the walls for the tavern I was looking at in Stronghold builder's Guidebook and it has flat rates for teams of employees, which means less micro managing. It is beautiful.

Thank you, Cirrylius!


Use the generic DCs - 5 for very simple, 10 for typical, 15 for high quality, and 20 for complex. Wine spans the range; even the DMG recognizes that there is fine wine (10gp for a bottle) and common wine (2sp for a pitcher).

A good point.

My DM and I looked this over and it left me with one simple issue: what about wines from Arms & Equipment Guide that are obviously more expensive and exotic than those in the PHB?

The rule he has house ruled is that the craft check is based on the Fort save required by the wine.

Looks like we're all wrapped up folks!

Thanks again or all the help.