Hunter Maximising AoO's

[DedWards]

I'm trying to make a Hunter (the hybrid Druid and Ranger class from the Advanced Class Guide) that maximises the number of Attack of Opportunities it can get every round while flanking with her Animal Companion.

At level 2, the Hunter can choose between Precise Shot and Outflank as a bonus Feat. I'm choosing Outflank as the Animal Companion gets it for free and it can trigger extra AoO's.

At 3rd level, the Hunter grants any Teamwork Feats she has to her Animal Companion for free and she gets bonus Teamwork Feats at level 3 and every 3 levels thereafter.

The Teamwork Feats I'm interested in are:
Outflank (it's free)
Pack Flanking (requires Combat Expertise)
Paired Opportunists
Seize the Moment

Additionally, to take advantage of the extra AoO's, I will have to take Combat Reflexes.

This brings me to my question, what should my ability scores be (using 20 point buy)? Most importantly, how many AoO's should I expect on average? This will effect how high should DEX be.

Remember, Hunters are WIS based casters (though they aren't primary casters) and CHA is needed for Handle Animal. STR and CON are somewhat important as I'm going melee. I'm thinking this makes me a little MAD.

My current idea for Ability Scores gaining only +2 from DEX for a total of 3 AoO's per turn (if I'm reading Combat Reflexes properly):

STR 14 (melee to hit and damage)
DEX 14 (12 + 2 from race [human])
CON 14 (melee needs HP)
INT 13 (needed for Pack Flanking)
WIS 14 (casting stat)
CHA 10 (don't want a negative to Handle Animal)

Alternatively, going with higher DEX and Weapon Finesse for 4 AoO's per turn:

STR 10 (don't want a negative to damage)
DEX 17 (15 + 2 from race [human])
CON 14 (melee needs HP)
INT 13 (needed for Pack Flanking)
WIS 14 (casting stat)
CHA 10 (don't want a negative to Handle Animal)

I have two ideas on how to go about doing this. One has me with 13 INT off the bat, allowing me to get Pack Flanking at level 3; the other has me putting level 4's ability boost into INT and only getting Pack Flanking at level 6 (both with 20 point buy):

• Ready for Pack Flanking at level 3 (two starting Ability options here):

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13 (11 + 2)
WIS 14
CHA 7

STR 18 (16 + 2)
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 13
CHA 7

Level 4: +1 CON
Level 8: +1 STR/WIS
Level 12: +1 STR
Level 16: +1 STR

Feat Selection:
Level 1: Combat Expertise (Human)
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 2: Outflank (Precise Companion)
Level 3: Combat Reflexes
Level 3:
Pack Flanking (Teamwork)
Level 5: Paired Opportunists
Level 6: Broken Wing Gambit (Teamwork)
Level 7: Escape Route
Level 9: Toughness
Level 9: Improved Spell Sharing (Teamwork)
Level 11:
Level 12: Seize the Moment (Teamwork)
Level 13:
Level 15: Distracting Charge
Level 15: Coordinated Charge (Teamwork)
Level 17:
Level 18:
Level 19: (Teamwork)


• Ready for Pack Flanking at level 6:

STR 18 (16 + 2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 7

Level 4: +1 INT
Level 8: +1 WIS
Level 12: +1 WIS
Level 16: +1 STR

Feat Selection:
Level 1: Combat Reflexes (Human)
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 2: Outflank (Precise Companion)
Level 3: Paired Opportunists
Level 3: Broken Wing Gambit
(Teamwork)
Level 5: Combat Expertise
Level 6: Pack Flanking (Teamwork)
Level 7: Escape Route
Level 9: Toughness
Level 9: Improved Spell Sharing (Teamwork)
Level 11:
Level 12: Seize the Moment (Teamwork)
Level 13:
Level 15: Distracting Charge
Level 15: Coordinated Charge (Teamwork)
Level 17:
Level 18:
Level 19: (Teamwork)


So my questions are; "Which option is better?" and "Am I using too many Teamwork Feats and neglecting normal feats?"

[avr]

Re the Handle Animal skill; you get a +4 when working with your companion. with 1 skill rank, +3 class skill, 10 CHA and this bonus you only need to roll a 2 to get it to perform a trick. At level 2 this is automatic unless you took a charisma penalty.

When teaching a trick you can and usually should take 10, which allows you to automatically teach a DC 15 trick at level 1 and a DC 20 trick at level 3 (+/- cha bonus on the latter.) That's as hard as it gets. You can dump CHA if you want to without hurting significantly, and there's little reason to get it above 10.

If you get more than 2 opportunities to take an AoO in a round, most of the time either someone's helping you by tripping enemies or you're being swarmed and will soon be overwhelmed.

[The Random NPC]

There's Broken Wing Gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/broken-wing-gambit-combat-teamwork), when you hit someone, you can grant them a +2 on attack and damage. If they take that bonus, the enemy provokes an AoO from everyone with the feat.

EDIT: Also I think that grants you 2 AoO if you have Paired Opportunists. One from Broken Wing Gambit, and one because your Animal Companion got an AoO. Possibly more, depending on how far down the Trip line you go.

[grarrrg]

Remember, Hunters are WIS based casters (though they aren't primary casters) and CHA is needed for Handle Animal. STR and CON are somewhat important as I'm going melee. I'm thinking this makes me a little MAD.

You probably don't need to worry about CHA, as any checks related to your Companion are either "free", or have a decent bonus applied already.

If you go a Finesse route, then you needn't worry about STR. There are a handful of ways to get DEX-to-Damage (Agile Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile), Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) feat, etc...).

This would drop you down to only needing DEX, CON, and WIS. Possibly 13 INT for Pack Flanking.

You really only need 16 WIS, which is lower than it looks, as you only really "need" it for spell-casting, so you could start with a 14 and buy a +2 item at some point. And it's fairly easy to find a race with +WIS, so you could probably get by only buying a WIS of 12.


Also, Outflank gives extra AoO's if you score Criticals, so "crit-fishing" (for you at least) should be looked into.

[DedWards]

Re the Handle Animal skill; you get a +4 when working with your companion. with 1 skill rank, +3 class skill, 10 CHA and this bonus you only need to roll a 2 to get it to perform a trick. At level 2 this is automatic unless you took a charisma penalty.

When teaching a trick you can and usually should take 10, which allows you to automatically teach a DC 15 trick at level 1 and a DC 20 trick at level 3 (+/- cha bonus on the latter.) That's as hard as it gets. You can dump CHA if you want to without hurting significantly, and there's little reason to get it above 10.

Pretty much what I was already thinking, even though I've never really played a class with an animal companion.


If you get more than 2 opportunities to take an AoO in a round, most of the time either someone's helping you by tripping enemies or you're being swarmed and will soon be overwhelmed.

The Animal Companion is the main source of help for AoO's. There is a Teamwork Feat that makes tripping easier: Tandem Trip. A wolf or something should help increase the chance of trip into AoO.

[DedWards]

There's Broken Wing Gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/broken-wing-gambit-combat-teamwork), when you hit someone, you can grant them a +2 on attack and damage. If they take that bonus, the enemy provokes an AoO from everyone with the feat.

The problem I have with this one is it increases the chance to hit and hurt me, which isn't too nice at early levels. Otherwise it's a great feat.


You probably don't need to worry about CHA, as any checks related to your Companion are either "free", or have a decent bonus applied already.

If you go a Finesse route, then you needn't worry about STR. There are a handful of ways to get DEX-to-Damage (Agile Weapon, Dervish Dance feat, etc...).

This would drop you down to only needing DEX, CON, and WIS. Possibly 13 INT for Pack Flanking.

You really only need 16 WIS, which is lower than it looks, as you only really "need" it for spell-casting, so you could start with a 14 and buy a +2 item at some point. And it's fairly easy to find a race with +WIS, so you could probably get by only buying a WIS of 12.


Also, Outflank gives extra AoO's if you score Criticals, so "crit-fishing" (for you at least) should be looked into.

I guess the biggest problem besides abilities is what to use to supplement the AoO's; higher crit rate or trip :?

[The Random NPC]

The problem I have with this one is it increases the chance to hit and hurt me, which isn't too nice at early levels. Otherwise it's a great feat.



I guess the biggest problem besides abilities is what to use to supplement the AoO's; higher crit rate or trip :?

AoO resolve before the action that provoked it, and besides you can't get it before 5th level anyways.

[DedWards]

AoO resolve before the action that provoked it, and besides you can't get it before 5th level anyways.

Oh ya, "Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks."

I'll consider it

[Platymus Pus]

Reach weapons help get AoO from a distance, grow to a larger size to extend it further perhaps you might look into it.
THere are also things like snapshot

[DedWards]

Reach weapons help get AoO from a distance, grow to a larger size to extend it further perhaps you might look into it.
THere are also things like snapshot

I have looked into reach and ranged weapons.

Reach is good, but once they get adjacent to you, you no longer threaten them, thus no longer gaining flanking bonuses.

While Snapshot and Improved Snapshot are great for allowing you to threaten at range, you can't get the +2 bonus from flanking with it (though you still grants it to allies). This means that I also won't get the bonuses from most, if not all, the Teamwork Feats that grant AoO's.

I have thought about investing in Potions of Enlarge Person.

[Platymus Pus]

I have looked into reach and ranged weapons.

Reach is good, but once they get adjacent to you, you no longer threaten them, thus no longer gaining flanking bonuses.

While Snapshot and Improved Snapshot are great for allowing you to threaten at range, you can't get the +2 bonus from flanking with it (though you still grants it to allies). This means that I also won't get the bonuses from most, if not all, the Teamwork Feats that grant AoO's.

I have thought about investing in Potions of Enlarge Person.

Hmm Constant weapon shift (which may cost a lots)or the very cheap flat Changeling enhancement which will allow you to change your spear into other spears for 2k.

[DedWards]

Hmm Constant weapon shift (which may cost a lots)or the very cheap flat Changeling enhancement which will allow you to change your spear into other spears for 2k.

Could you link me to rules on "Constant weapon shift" and "Changeling enhancement", I can't seem to find rules for them. The best I can find is Transformative ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/transformative ), which costs 10 000g

[avr]

An easy way to threaten when someone steps inside your reach is to have spikes on your armor. You need to change which weapon is 'ready' as a free action on your turn, but it's a decent backup option for a strength based attacker in case they don't want to 5' step away.

Tandem trip doesn't avoid the AoO for trying to trip someone. Your animal companion would need at least one more feat for that (probably Dirty Fighting, from the Dirty Tricks Toolbox), unless you get something like a wolf - not the best type, the free trip attempt on a bite aside. You need to invest a fair bit to make a combat maneuver worthwhile.

4 14s and a 13 is MAD beyond all hope. Something needs to break so you can have at least a 16 ability somewhere. Finesse ... You have no in class damage boost, so you need some base damage to work with. Work without pack flanking, or live with a 12 dex or 12 con, or drop cha to 8 and wis to 13. Any of these can get that 16 str.

[Platymus Pus]

Could you link me to rules on "Constant weapon shift" and "Changeling enhancement", I can't seem to find rules for them. The best I can find is Transformative ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/transformative ), which costs 10 000g

AH well they are 3.5, you'd be better off googling them.
Weapon shift is a spell that is low level. Changeling is a weapon enhancement.

[DedWards]

OK, After taking in all the advice given here and reading up some builds, etc. on other sites, I've reevaluated how I want to do this. Please help me choose a route to play. (see main post's "Current Idea" for the update)

[grarrrg]

• Ready for Pack Flanking at level 3 (two starting Ability options here):
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13 (11 + 2)
WIS 14
CHA 7

Don't do this. You're wasting Points by not putting your +2 in a high stat.

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 7
Same exact stats as above, but with 3 Points still left to spend/shuffle.


• Ready for Pack Flanking at level 6:
STR 18 (16 + 2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 13 (12+level)
WIS 12
CHA 7

Similar case here, putting your Level up point in a low stat makes you waste potential.
STR 18 (15+2+level)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 7
Still 2 points to allocate.

Also, you're probably better off in the long run if you find a way to get DEX-to-Damage (and dropping STR to 10-ish).

[DedWards]

Don't do this. You're wasting Points by not putting your +2 in a high stat.

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 7
Same exact stats as above, but with 3 Points still left to spend/shuffle.



Similar case here, putting your Level up point in a low stat makes you waste potential.
STR 18 (15+2+level)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 7
Still 2 points to allocate.

Also, you're probably better off in the long run if you find a way to get DEX-to-Damage (and dropping STR to 10-ish).

Ok, scrap the Pack Flanking at level 6 idea. How's this then?

STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 7

With lv4 going into DEX and level 8 into STR. DEX effects both AC and AoO's (Combat Reflexes).

OR

STR 12
DEX 18 (16+2)
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8

This allows for a 'switch hitter' like build by dipping into the few ranged Teamwork Feats. I'm not too familiar with "DEX-to-Damage" effects, could you please suggest a few?

[grarrrg]

I'm not too familiar with "DEX-to-Damage" effects, could you please suggest a few?

I did already, first post I made in this thread.

If you go a Finesse route, then you needn't worry about STR. There are a handful of ways to get DEX-to-Damage (Agile Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile), Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) feat, etc...).

There's also Slashing Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat), better weapon selection than Dervish Dance, but you also need Weapon Focus (whereas Dervish only requires Weapon Finesse).
3 levels of Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained), only works with 1 weapon, but you can choose the weapon. The Sneak Attack would play nicely with the "Flanking" idea, but otherwise you're delaying your Hunter goodies a fair bit.
And a couple others (probably).

Overall Agile Weapon is probably the easiest, as you only need Weapon Finesse, and you're already a little feat-starved.

[The Random NPC]

A bit tangential, but I remember reading that Natural Attacks use the better of Strength or Dexterity for attack rolls. Did I dream this? Because I can't find it anywhere.

[grarrrg]

A bit tangential, but I remember reading that Natural Attacks use the better of Strength or Dexterity for attack rolls. Did I dream this? Because I can't find it anywhere.

I think you dreamed it.
Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) has a "Natural Weapons" clause, which it wouldn't need if that's how it worked by default.
There could be a specific monster/ability/something that works that way, but not for 'regular' attacks.