Ironwood on a -wooden- weapon

[rawling]

OK, so one can use the spell Ironwood to essentially take a wooden copy of a metal weapon / piece or armour / shield etc. and make it as good as its metal counterpart (if slightly more flammable)


While remaining natural wood in almost every way, ironwood is as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as steel... Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts.

Question: If you cast Ironwood on a weapon which is normally made of wood - I'm thinking a Quarterstaff here - how would it affect the weapon?

Obviously the weight will increase; I'm sure there's rules for that somewhere.

I'm more concerned about how this will affect the damage dice and critical range/multiplier.

NB: Just notices steel in the real world is around 10x denser than wood, depending on the TYPE of wood. That makes a 40lb quarterstaff. Hmm...

[goat]

But, a steel quarterstaff wouldn't need to be as thick as a wooden one. You'd probably be better off with a long wooden tube converted to iron wood, and then a bard, who can use it as his war-didjeridoo.

[elliott20]

hehe, "Ironwood"... keeps you steeled for hours!!!

[/hijack]

sorry about that, but apparently I have a very dirty mind.

[rawling]

No, hijack all you want :smalltongue: As long as I get some answers eventually...

[Counterspin]

Generally speaking, changing materials has no effect on the damage die or the critical range. There are some materials that do so, but I don't think metalling a staff would be good enough for either. It's definitely a gray area. Generally speaking, materials don't change the critical range(though I'm sure there is some exception I'm not familiar with) as that is a function of the weapon's complexity(simple, martial, exotic). Damage die doesn't seem right either, because that's tied to what type of weapon you're dealing with. The resulting weapon is definitely heavier, and it definitely has more HP and hardness, but I don't think there would be any other substantive changes.

[goat]

Well, it's heavier. Starting from that point, and considering that a 40lb one would be 5 times heavier than a greatclub, I think I'd boost the damage output to d8/d8, change it to exotic, and require a minimum strength of about 16 to use it properly.

[Jasdoif]

Changing a weapon's weight doesn't change its damage. Unless there's some note on mithral weapons dealing less damage that I haven't seen.

It's like Counterspin said: A wooden weapon affected by ironwood would have the hit points and hardness of iron/steel instead of that of wood. So, hardness 10 and triple its previous hp. It'd also weigh more.

[Smiley_]

What you're talking about here is a big, solid metal pole. Weapon prof (quarterstaff) should not work on such a weapon. I would treat it as a heavy mace, if anything.

[dyslexicfaser]

I'd just like to say that the war didgeridoo sounds like the best weapon ever.

[goat]

That's sort of what I was doing. It's d8 at either end (like a heavy mace), but needs exotic proficiency, and I thought the strength bonus would be necessary for shifting the weight around in any meaningful manner.

edit - Sort of like the difference between a battle axe and an Orc double axe.

[Telonius]

But, a steel quarterstaff wouldn't need to be as thick as a wooden one. You'd probably be better off with a long wooden tube converted to iron wood, and then a bard, who can use it as his war-didjeridoo.

Ahhh, so that's how the Cardboard Tube Samurai (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/01/15) does it.

[Person_Man]

There's an excellent Cleric spell in the Compendium called Spikes that explicitly must be cast on a non-magical blunt wooden weapon that gives +2 to attack and +1 damage per level. It works quite well for any build that wants to use wooden or blunt weapons.

But there's really no need for ironwood weapons. Sunder attempts are really rare, and magic items are hard to sunder regardless of their material. Unless someone in the party already has access to it, you're just wasting money.

[goat]

Ah, but Druidic Wooden Full Plate!

[rawling]

Heh, thanks for all the responses, guys (and gals?)
I'm getting the impression there's not a great deal of point in casting Ironwood on a quarterstaff, so... I'll just leave it at that :smallbiggrin:

The didgeridoo, on the other hand... :smallamused:

EDIT: Thanks for the spell reference, by the way. That's the thing I love about Divine casters; new spells all the time, and the characters themselves doesn't have to do anything more to get them...

EDIT2: How about a spell to make, instead of a steel-like wood, an Adamantine-like or Mithral-like wood? I was going to suggest cold iron or alchemical silver, but the spell doesn't change the wood's, um, "chemical" properties, only its "physical". The advantages of Adamantine and Mithral are strictly physical. Recalling that such items have to be masterwork, I'd halve the amount you can transmute (as with Ironwood, you get masterwork and +1 enhancement bonus if transmuting half what you're allowed) but not give the +1 enhancement bonus; what level would such a spell be? Ironwood is 6th, so at least 7th...

[goat]

You start with a bard who carries a quarterstaff and a didgeridoo. The quarterstaff can be carried in the didgeridoo like a sort of sheath (might need a cap on the end) when they're not in use.

Eventually, when he gets to a high enough level, they can both be traded in for an iron wood didgeridoo, thin outer shell, similar inner dimensions. Then he can play a tune, stop for a breath, belt someone with it, and carry on playing.

[Jasdoif]

I was going to suggest cold iron or alchemical silver, but the spell doesn't change the wood's, um, "chemical" properties, only its "physical".Technically, "chemical" is a physical property.

But for alchemical silver, I recommend just using silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen). Silver weapons take a penalty on damage, afterall, I don't think you'd want that permanently.

[rawling]

Sorry, I was trying to differentiate between properties which might remain under "While remaining natural wood in almost every way..." and those which would probably fall under "...as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as...". "Chemical" and "Physical" was the best I could sum it up in few words, despite the horrible bastardisation of my A-levels I may have just perpetrated.

[Jasdoif]

Sorry, I was trying to differentiate between properties which might remain under "While remaining natural wood in almost every way..." and those which would probably fall under "...as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as...". "Chemical" and "Physical" was the best I could sum it up in few words, despite the horrible bastardisation of my A-levels I may have just perpetrated.My suggestion: Don't worry about such distinctions when designing spells. Ironwood doesn't burn, that's a pretty flagrant difference from natural wood. Plus, it's magic.

Anyway, since a druid isn't prohibited from using metal weapons, I don't think a cold-ironwood type of spell is at all inappropriate. In the interests of simplicity, I'd just make it an option of the original ironwood spell, and require a material component of some sort that costs as much extra as getting a normal weapon made of cold iron instead. That's double the cost, so the extra is the weapon's base cost, so the material component would be...something nature-ish that's worth as much as the normal weapon's market value.

Same kind of thing with other materials; but mithral and adamantium add further benefits to armor, so you might want to consider if that's appropriate. If you've already decided it is, no reason not to let ironwood spell make wood with similar properties as well.

And for some reason this whole thing reminds of an episode of Ducktales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducktales), where part of a forest was made of golden trees because the trees were growing on top of a gold deposit. Maybe somewhere, adamantium does grow on trees....

[rawling]

I was considering possible costs when I realised the spell isn't permanent. Which makes full crafting costs seem a little harsh.

But being able to shape something out of wood, then make it effectively into metal, without any crafting checks, feats of crafting time/costs is quite neat. More so if you can make it weigh half as much as, and encumber less than, a normal steel item (Mithralwood), or be hard enough to overcome, or provide, DR (Adamantinewood).

[Jasdoif]

I was considering possible costs when I realised the spell isn't permanent. Which makes full crafting costs seem a little harsh....dang it, I must've been thinking of warp wood.

OK, new idea: We'll do like you said, and make a higher-level spell, "greater ironwood" or something. And its duration will be instantaneous. And all will be well. If you like, make the component the full regular cost for all its uses (even the basic iron use).

[rawling]

Heh, yeah. Maybe 8th level for permanent ironwood, 7th level for the nicer materials, and 9th level for permanent nicer materials. Maybe add XP costs for the permanent spells, based on the cost to make a real one and the normal rate of XP/GP conversion in item creation... since, well, this is crafting on the cheap otherwise.

EDIT: Or maybe if we have duration: Permanent (D) rather than Instantaneous, the risk that your items might get dispelled is enough to offset the lack of crafting cost?

EDIT: Heh, I like the way Wood Shape isn't good enough to make fine details, but if you try to turn the resulting object into metal really hard, you end up with a masterwork item. That could just be me, reading "masterwork" as "lots of scrollwork and pretty patterns" :smallamused:

[Telonius]

And for some reason this whole thing reminds of an episode of Ducktales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducktales), where part of a forest was made of golden trees because the trees were growing on top of a gold deposit. Maybe somewhere, adamantium does grow on trees....

On the island of San Serif, right next to the spaghetti orchard. :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

Heh, yeah. Maybe 8th level for permanent ironwood, 7th level for the nicer materials, and 9th level for permanent nicer materials. Maybe add XP costs for the permanent spells, based on the cost to make a real one and the normal rate of XP/GP conversion in item creation... since, well, this is crafting on the cheap otherwise.I don't feel an XP cost is appropriate, since you could simply buy a similar item at the same price and use it just as well (unless it's armor, but there's alternatives for that too). It's pretty much a flavor spell compared to the mundane alternative, an XP cost is awfully cruel for that.


EDIT: Or maybe if we have duration: Permanent (D) rather than Instantaneous, the risk that your items might get dispelled is enough to offset the lack of crafting cost?...I strongly discourage "hey, it can be taken away permanently!" as a means to balance a spell's expensive costs.


EDIT: Heh, I like the way Wood Shape isn't good enough to make fine details, but if you try to turn the resulting object into metal really hard, you end up with a masterwork item. That could just be me, reading "masterwork" as "lots of scrollwork and pretty patterns" :smallamused:I don't see that, I just see that you can make it be treated as a magic item with a +1 enhancement bonus. Since this is based on the quantity it's a matter of making the base material better. Though I would disallow this use of the ironwood spell for an instantaneous version, to avoid potential headaches.


EDIT:
On the island of San Serif, right next to the spaghetti orchard. :smallbiggrin:Ahh, yes. Reminds me of a song..."Over the pasta and through the font, adamantium will grow...."