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Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 01:25 PM
I'm working on a build, starting at level 11. The 20 level build USING LA BUYOFF is:
Saint Silverbrow Human
Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
Lvl 1: Arcane Preparation
Fey Heritage
Versatile Spellcaster
Lvl 3: Combat Casting
Lvl 6: Power Attack
Lvl 9: Fey Legacy
Lvl 12: Clap of Thunder
Lvl 15: Dimensional Jaunt
Lvl 18: ???

The build is basically a suicide bomber that doesn't die. He runs in, using massive AC and protection buffs to get there, then blasts off Wings of Flurry and hits things in the face.
I know I want (Greater) Luminous Armor, Wings of Flurry, and Wings of Cover.
Ruin Delver's Fortune, Melf's Unicorn Arrow, and Steeldance all add some nice features to the build.
And there's plenty of spells to boost AC to make me almost unhittable.
But what about spells to give me a kickass weapon?
Abjuration is preferred, but any spell you can think of is appreciated. :smallsmile:

BowStreetRunner
2015-10-21, 01:34 PM
...The 20 level build is...Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7...
7+1+1+5+7=21 levels actually.

...But what about spells to give me a kickass weapon?...
Mighty Wallop (and Greater Mighty Wallop) from Races of the Dragon.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 01:36 PM
7+1+1+5+7=21 levels actually.

Mighty Wallop (and Greater Mighty Wallop) from Races of the Dragon.
I need to stop doing math late at night :smallbiggrin:
Fixed it

Mighty wallop seems decent enough for some sort of two handed warhammer

Andezzar
2015-10-21, 01:49 PM
Abjurant Champion is a 5 level PrC, so you cannot take six level in it.

Mighty Wallop does not give a weapon, it only enhances an existing one.

These are spells that give weapons:
Scimitar of Sand (Sandstorm 120) and Thunderlance (Spell Compendium p. 220), flame blade unfortunately is for druids only.

The various Bite of the Were-X spells (SpC) grant natural weapons, stat increases and feats.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-21, 01:51 PM
I need to stop doing math late at night :smallbiggrin:
Fixed it

Mighty wallop seems decent enough for some sort of two handed warhammer

Greater Mighty Wallop lasts all day and gives a solid pile of damage. It works best with minotaur great hammer but honestly even a club becomes deadly under the spell.

HalfQuart
2015-10-21, 02:04 PM
Also Greater Magic Weapon. Don't forgot to take Shield; that's a key piece of your high AC.

And right now you've got 7+1+1+4+6=19 levels, but isn't Saint a +2 LA? So that's still 21.

And I don't think you have the Armor and Weapon prereqs for Spellsword. Battle Sorcerer gives you the single martial weapon for AbC, but that's not enough for Spellsword. Spellsword doesn't really add much to your build anyway, so you can probably drop it without problems. Some builds (especially Wizard ones) use Spellsword for its +1 BAB at level 1 to get into AbC sooner, but you don't really need it.

Heavy Flail or Maul would be a good choice for your Martial Weapon Proficiency so you can use it to great effect with Greater Mighty Wallop... that is assuming you've got the Strength to make it worthwhile to melee, and don't want to use spells in close. For spells, look for good burst spells to effect everyone around you. Normally those spells suck as you usually never want to find yourself in that position, but for you they'd be useful.

HalfQuart
2015-10-21, 02:12 PM
Oh, and it's kind of cool to be able to spam Dispel Magic as a swift action, if you can fit Dispel Magic into your level 3 slots.

ThinkMinty
2015-10-21, 02:13 PM
Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry will both be nice, especially on a gish.

BowStreetRunner
2015-10-21, 02:53 PM
Vanishing Weapon (BoED p.111) can be very useful if you run into summoned creatures or shadow illusions.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 03:02 PM
Abjurant Champion is a 5 level PrC, so you cannot take six level in it.

Mighty Wallop does not give a weapon, it only enhances an existing one.

These are spells that give weapons:
Scimitar of Sand (Sandstorm 120) and Thunderlance (Spell Compendium p. 220), flame blade unfortunately is for druids only.

The various Bite of the Were-X spells (SpC) grant natural weapons, stat increases and feats.
My bad, it was a typo. I meant to say Abjurant Champion levels 2-5.

Enhancing a weapon is actually what I'm looking for.
Although, Scimitar of Sand looks like a kickass level 2 spell.

Also Greater Magic Weapon. Don't forgot to take Shield; that's a key piece of your high AC.

And right now you've got 7+1+1+4+6=19 levels, but isn't Saint a +2 LA? So that's still 21.

And I don't think you have the Armor and Weapon prereqs for Spellsword. Battle Sorcerer gives you the single martial weapon for AbC, but that's not enough for Spellsword. Spellsword doesn't really add much to your build anyway, so you can probably drop it without problems. Some builds (especially Wizard ones) use Spellsword for its +1 BAB at level 1 to get into AbC sooner, but you don't really need it.

Heavy Flail or Maul would be a good choice for your Martial Weapon Proficiency so you can use it to great effect with Greater Mighty Wallop... that is assuming you've got the Strength to make it worthwhile to melee, and don't want to use spells in close. For spells, look for good burst spells to effect everyone around you. Normally those spells suck as you usually never want to find yourself in that position, but for you they'd be useful.
LA Buyoff is being used, just clarified in the OP.
Aw damn, didn't see that part. Spellsword's 10% ASF reduction lets me use a suit of Githcraft Twilight Mithral Full Plate with 0% ASF. :smallfrown:
If I can't get the armor proficiency prereq waived, what do you think I could throw in instead?

Vanishing Weapon (BoED p.111) can be very useful if you run into summoned creatures or shadow illusions.
That seems okay, but a little underwhelming for a 5th level spell...

dascarletm
2015-10-21, 03:06 PM
You don't really need to wear armor if you are using greater luminous armor.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 03:17 PM
You don't really need to wear armor if you are using greater luminous armor.
Oh I don't need to, but if there's no drawback to doing so, why shouldn't I?

Andezzar
2015-10-21, 03:17 PM
You don't really need to wear armor if you are using greater luminous armor.Just get some kind of armor without ACP or ASF to carry all the nice ASAs.

dascarletm
2015-10-21, 03:24 PM
Oh I don't need to, but if there's no drawback to doing so, why shouldn't I?
Saves you money, and frees up build space for other juicy pRCs. I suggest perhaps a dip into paladin? (alignment permitting)

Just get some kind of armor without ACP or ASF to carry all the nice ASAs.
Exactly, but the only armor special abilities I would want would be, soulfire (or whatever the name of the one that counters death/negative energy effects) and maybe fortification.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 03:27 PM
Saves you money, and frees up build space for other juicy pRCs. I suggest perhaps a dip into paladin? (alignment permitting)
:smallconfused:
I'll be Good for the Luminous Armor spells, but why would I want to take a level of Paladin? Paladin 1 loses me a caster level that I could get with Sacred Exorcist in return for detect evil and 1/day smite.

And also, what other juicy prc? I haven't found anything worthwhile, save maybe another level of Sacred Exorcist

Andezzar
2015-10-21, 03:32 PM
Exactly, but the only armor special abilities I would want would be, soulfire (or whatever the name of the one that counters death/negative energy effects) and maybe fortification.
+1 soulfire heavy fortification already is priced as a +10 armor.

dascarletm
2015-10-21, 03:59 PM
:smallconfused:
I'll be Good for the Luminous Armor spells, but why would I want to take a level of Paladin? Paladin 1 loses me a caster level that I could get with Sacred Exorcist in return for detect evil and 1/day smite.

And also, what other juicy prc? I haven't found anything worthwhile, save maybe another level of Sacred Exorcist
I meant the lawful bit.

A two level dip (see: sorcadin (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1150636)) for divine grace and some BaB to help fulfill requirements.

I personally like it, but to each their own.
As for other PRCs... well I suppose I'm drawing a blank but, maybe.... swiftblade?


+1 soulfire heavy fortification already is priced as a +10 armor.
Mostly for that sweet sweet soulfire. Fortification it too overpriced IMO, but if you got it (it being gold) flaunt it.

Dusk Eclipse
2015-10-21, 04:02 PM
You really shouldn't get heavy fortification, after all you can get the crit immunity via spells (Heart of [Element] spells and/or elemental body are the first ones to come to mind). Getting a Runestaff with them shouldn't be a problem or worst comes to worst you can use the Ancestral Relic trick to get them yourself.

HalfQuart
2015-10-21, 04:23 PM
If I can't get the armor proficiency prereq waived, what do you think I could throw in instead?
Just to clarify, it's not just the armor proficiency. Spellsword requires "Feats: Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light)." Battle Sorcerer gives one Martial Weapon Proficiency, which is enough for Abjurant Champion, but you need ALL martial weapons for Spellsword, plus all armors.

But actually without Spellsword, or something else with Knowledge (the planes), you're not going to be able to get 10 ranks in time to qualify for Sacred Exorcist. Not really sure what to use instead of Spellsword. Maybe Ruathar; you lose a point of BAB, but at least you get two good saves. Not stellar.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 04:25 PM
Just to clarify, it's not just the armor proficiency. Spellsword requires "Feats: Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light)." Battle Sorcerer gives one Martial Weapon Proficiency, which is enough for Abjurant Champion, but you need ALL martial weapons for Spellsword, plus all armors.

But actually without Spellsword, or something else with Knowledge (the planes), you're not going to be able to get 10 ranks in time to qualify for Sacred Exorcist. Not really sure what to use instead of Spellsword. Maybe Ruathar; you lose a point of BAB, but at least you get two good saves. Not stellar.
You can get 10 ranks at the same time, it just requires double the skill points.


At this point I guess I'll just go for another level of Sacred Exorcist.


But does anyone have good weapon enhancing spells? Failing that, any weapons or enchantments that would be useful would also be appreciated.

dascarletm
2015-10-21, 04:30 PM
But does anyone have good weapon enhancing spells?

Greater Mighty Wallop - For tons of damage
Greater Magic Weapon - it lasts all day, why not?
Blade of Blood - decent damage booster
Fist of Stone - good until your stat item reaches/surpasses this. I'd trade it out eventually (at 11 you may not need it)
True Strike - For that monster the DM thought wouldn't have "too high of an AC"

Additional Spells to use your weapon with:

Whirling Blade - Now it is a line attack

HalfQuart
2015-10-21, 04:54 PM
You can get 10 ranks at the same time, it just requires double the skill points.
Yes, but unless you've got a class with it as a class skill, the max ranks for a cross class skill is half what it is for a class skill, so the lowest level you can get 10 ranks in it is 17th level, meaning you could only start Sacred Exorcist at 18th level....

HalfQuart
2015-10-21, 05:08 PM
There's a super painful feat tax of Dodge and Iron Will, but a one level dip in Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) gives the armor and weapon proficiencies needed for Spellsword and +1 BAB and +1 spellcasting.

How are you getting Fey Legacy at 1st level? Is that from a flaw? Doesn't it require Character Level 9?

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 05:23 PM
Yes, but unless you've got a class with it as a class skill, the max ranks for a cross class skill is half what it is for a class skill, so the lowest level you can get 10 ranks in it is 17th level, meaning you could only start Sacred Exorcist at 18th level....
Aw crap. Welp. Any ideas? I really hate skill requirements. :smallannoyed:

There's a super painful feat tax of Dodge and Iron Will, but a one level dip in Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) gives the armor and weapon proficiencies needed for Spellsword and +1 BAB and +1 spellcasting.

How are you getting Fey Legacy at 1st level? Is that from a flaw? Doesn't it require Character Level 9?
Oh jeez. Was from a flaw, but didn't see the 9th level requirement... I'll switch it with Versatile Spellcaster.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-21, 05:40 PM
Oh jeez. Was from a flaw, but didn't see the 9th level requirement... I'll switch it with Versatile Spellcaster.

Other option: exotic weapon proficiency (must be taken after one, or at 1 with a paladin dip if you are going sorcadin) minotaur greathammer. It is buffed by both Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop and can do some fairly terrifying damage if both are active on it at the same time.

I would also recommend Wraithstrike over True Strike. It is fairly effective in many situations (especially since box monsters tend to rely heavily on natural armor at higher DCs) and it is a Swift vs a Standard.

Other option: get a runestave with both on it. If you can have the runestaff also be a quarterstaff then you can wield it in two hands for the damage buff while having it in hand to swap out spells and buff it with Greater Mighty Wallop.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 06:00 PM
I've found my desired weapon.

A runestaff(which has Greater Mighty Walllop 2/day in it), and the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, which gives me 1d6/1d6 + Cha modifer, or 2d6/2d6+Cha Modifier once GMW is cast.

Any recommendations for enchantments?

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-21, 06:13 PM
Please note I have no idea if runestaves can legally be used as quarterstaffs. If they can be I recommend you load it with Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, True Strike, and Wraithstrike with the common theme being buffing attacks.

As for enhancements I would recommend not bothering. They tend to be expensive for what they do and you can use that money to invest in other items. You already get sizable buffs from your spells so you are better off buffing those.

Alistaroc
2015-10-21, 06:18 PM
Please note I have no idea if runestaves can legally be used as quarterstaffs. If they can be I recommend you load it with Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, True Strike, and Wraithstrike with the common theme being buffing attacks.
A google search seems to state that you need a very picky DM to rule them other than quarterstaves for melee.
I was thinking something like:
Greater Mighty Wallop 2/day
Blur 3/day
Greater Mage Armor 2/day
Greater Luminous Armor 2/day
Cacophonic Shield 1/day

It'd be the Staff of Battlefield Buffs
And Cacophonic Shield lets me use Clap of Thunder as a 5d6 touch attack that gets the Cha to damage from the Gauntlets

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-10-21, 06:22 PM
You don't have any exalted feats, you're required to have three in order to have the Saint template. You cannot gain the Saint template until you have at least six class levels, so you can't start buying off its +2 LA until six levels after 6th, and then three levels after that. You'll need to wait until ECL 14 (12 class levels and +2 LA) and pay 13,000 xp, and then ECL 16 (15 class levels and +1 LA) and pay 15,000 xp. Starting at level 11, you would still have the full +2 LA for quite a while.

Consider using Illumian in Races of Destiny with the Naenhoon runeword for your base race. Take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and once you start taking Sacred Exorcist you can use Naenhoon to persist two of your spells each day, such as Shield, Wraithstrike, Greater Invisibility, Draconic Polymorph, Bite of the Werebear, etc. Begin play with the feat Dragontouched, take the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level to get Draconic Heritage, and then retrain or Psychic Reformation your Dragontouched feat into something different, since that free Draconic Heritage feat will give you the dragonblood subtype to qualify for the substitution level that gives you Draconic Heritage. You'll still have the dragonblood subtype, but you'll have two 24-hour buffs each day that would have normally lasted only one fight or even a single round.

For your build, Battle Sorcerer is a very poor choice. You're trading ten spells known and ten spells/day for +2 BAB and slightly more hp. I would recommend switching the build to the standard Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which still gets 9th level spells with a +16 BAB at 20th level. Get Practiced Spellcaster and your caster level is equal to your character level.

Sorcerers can't normally cast Luminous Armor, regardless of alignment. BoED p83, Sanctified Magic: "Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll."

There are a few ways around this. You could spend a feat on Arcane Preparation (CA) to be able to prepare spells, which enables you to prepare and cast sanctified spells. You could use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick and put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that, along with many other 1/day buffs and situational spells. That would be useful to use anyway since it helps you get around your normally limited number of spells known. You can put Dismissal on that to qualify for Sacred Exorcist without spending a spell known. Any staff, including a quarterstaff, can be made into a runestaff.

Make your ancestral relic an Elvencraft Composite Longbow from Races of the Wild, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. You'll need to buy masterwork three times for it, but it can hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape. Per the Rules Compendium a wand takes the same action to activate as the spell's casting time, so a Wand of Wings of Cover is an immediate action to use, as long as you're holding it (or the weapon it's in the wand chamber of). Say you applied Unguent of Timelessness to that before it became your ancestral relic, and any spells cast on it will last 365 times longer than normal. Hire NPC spellcasters to put Greater Magic Weapon three times (two quarterstaff ends and bow portion) and Greater Mighty Wallop twice (both quarterstaff ends), each extended and at a caster level of 20th, which at the standard rates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) should cost you a total of 400 gp. That makes both melee ends deal colossal size base damage (4d6), and gives all three weapon portions a +5 enhancement bonus, which lasts over six hundred days. It's only another 400 gp to renew all of those effects, and the unguent never wears off. You can even see if that will make the effects of the Arcane Strike feat in CW last 365 rounds instead of just one, since it specifically charges a single weapon when activated.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-21, 06:29 PM
You don't have any exalted feats, you're required to have three in order to have the Saint template. You cannot gain the Saint template until you have at least six class levels, so you can't start buying off its +2 LA until six levels after 6th, and then three levels after that. You'll need to wait until ECL 14 (12 class levels and +2 LA) and pay 13,000 xp, and then ECL 16 (15 class levels and +1 LA) and pay 15,000 xp. Starting at level 11, you would still have the full +2 LA for quite a while.
You only need 6 class levels total to buy off a +2. Gaining Saint would put him at ECL 8, but he could immediately buy it off instead of increasing his ECL to 9.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-10-21, 09:41 PM
You only need 6 class levels total to buy off a +2. Gaining Saint would put him at ECL 8, but he could immediately buy it off instead of increasing his ECL to 9.

No, once you gain the LA, you need to gain three times that LA in class levels afterward to buy it off. You need to be 6th level before adding Saint, so you need to gain six more class levels after that before you're eligible to buy it off. "Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1."

If you begin play with a +2 LA, and buy it down to +1 at your 6th class level, you can't immediately buy off the remaining +1 because you already have at least three class levels. It doesn't count the class levels you already have when your LA changes to its current value, it only counts the class levels you gain after your LA changes when determining when it can be bought off. The table is written assuming you began play with your LA before gaining your first class level, since all of your class levels will count for buying it off, but if you gain an acquired template later in your career you still have to wait to buy it off. A 3rd level character can't gain Mineral Warrior, then immediately buy it off, because you still need to gain three more levels after the LA was gained.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-21, 09:46 PM
What? Like seriously where are you getting any of this. I quoted the line from the book (ehich is the same on the SRD) and it says total. Where does it say "after acquiring class levels equal to three time your level adjustment."

iDesu
2015-10-21, 09:58 PM
What? Like seriously where are you getting any of this. I quoted the line from the book (ehich is the same on the SRD) and it says total. Where does it say "after acquiring class levels equal to three time your level adjustment."

It's here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

Here are the relevant quotes from the site:


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.


If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

Andezzar
2015-10-21, 10:24 PM
But actually without Spellsword, or something else with Knowledge (the planes), you're not going to be able to get 10 ranks in time to qualify for Sacred Exorcist. Not really sure what to use instead of Spellsword. Maybe Ruathar; you lose a point of BAB, but at least you get two good saves. Not stellar.


Aw crap. Welp. Any ideas? I really hate skill requirements. :smallannoyedYou could take Knowledge Devotion to (among other things) make another knowledge skill a class skill for the rest of your career.

since the saint template is out, why not make a draconic Aasimar?

HalfQuart
2015-10-22, 01:28 PM
For your build, Battle Sorcerer is a very poor choice. You're trading ten spells known and ten spells/day for +2 BAB and slightly more hp. I would recommend switching the build to the standard Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which still gets 9th level spells with a +16 BAB at 20th level. Get Practiced Spellcaster and your caster level is equal to your character level.
I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that.... if he starts as Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ SpellSword 1/ Abjurant Champion 4, that's the equivalent of a level 9 Sorcerer -- which just gets him 4th level spells -- while 11th level Wizards are slinging around 6th level spells. That's a big difference. The Battle Sorcerer route at least gets him 5th level spells, albeit fewer spells.

I've done some napkin math, and even with one fewer spells known per level, you still end up with the same or more of your highest levels of spells. For example at 11th level, he'd have 1 fewer 1st level spell known (4-5), but one more (1-0) 5th level. At 15th level, he'd know 1 fewer 0-4 level spells (8,4,4,3,3-9,5,5,4,4) but one more 7th level spell (1-0). Even at 20th level, He'd know 1 fewer 0-7th level spells, but 1 more 9th level spell. So at level 20, you're not really giving up 10 spells known; you're trading 8 spells known of levels 0-7 for 1 extra level 9 spell.

For levels 1-10, Battle Sorcerer never has fewer spells known at any spell level.

Spells per day is similar; except for levels 3 and 20, you get more of your top 2 or 3 levels of spells/day, and 1 fewer at the rest. So at level 20 you've got 1 less spell/day for level 0-7, but 2/day more 9th level spells.

While there are benefits to starting with Paladin 2, the spellcasting perspective doesn't seem particularly compelling on its own.

HalfQuart
2015-10-22, 01:31 PM
You could take Knowledge Devotion to (among other things) make another knowledge skill a class skill for the rest of your career.
Good idea; Knowledge Devotion would actually be pretty good for this build anyway.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-10-22, 03:28 PM
I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that.... if he starts as Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ SpellSword 1/ Abjurant Champion 4, that's the equivalent of a level 9 Sorcerer -- which just gets him 4th level spells -- while 11th level Wizards are slinging around 6th level spells. That's a big difference. The Battle Sorcerer route at least gets him 5th level spells, albeit fewer spells.

If he's planning on being a primary melee combatant, then as long as he's beginning play with Polymorph it won't matter if he has 4th or 5th level spells. Gimping his spells known and spells/day for his entire career for access one higher level of spells at any given level is not worth it IMO.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ SpellSword 1/ Abjurant Champion 4 versus Battle Sorcerer 7/ Abjurant Champion 4:
BAB: +9 vs +9
HD: 6d10+4d4+1d8 (average 52) vs 7d8+4d10 (average 57)
Fort: +7+Cha vs +3
Reflex: +2+Cha vs +3
Will: +10+Cha vs +9
Spells/day: 6/6/6/6/4 vs 5/5/5/5/5/3
Spells known: 8/5/4/3/2 vs 8/4/4/3/2/1
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, shields, vs all simple weapons, one light or one-handed martial weapon, light armor.
Class Features: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Detect/Smite Evil, ignore 10% ASF, vs three more levels of your familiar class feature or whatever replaced it, and casting in light armor.

BAB is equal, the hp difference is negligible, the difference in saves is off the chart. The total number of spells/day and spells known is actually equal, but one has access to spells of one level higher. One actually gets some class features that can be usable, and actually gets weapon proficiencies. If he goes with the Elvencraft Composite Longbow Ancestral Relic Runestaff, the Paladin levels will give him proficiency with the bow portion.

I would go with the one with Paladin levels, mostly because Con is such an important save and all of that build's saves are so much better.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-10-22, 03:36 PM
Out of curiosity, would one of the spell-less paladin variants be good here? He isn't getting spells anyways so something small (IIRC one gives a bonus feat at 1) could work.

dascarletm
2015-10-22, 04:00 PM
Out of curiosity, would one of the spell-less paladin variants be good here? He isn't getting spells anyways so something small (IIRC one gives a bonus feat at 1) could work.

I was under the impression they all only gave benefits at around lvl 4 or so.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2015-10-22, 04:00 PM
Out of curiosity, would one of the spell-less paladin variants be good here? He isn't getting spells anyways so something small (IIRC one gives a bonus feat at 1) could work.

I wouldn't do that. A Paladin can use wands of any spell on his class list even if he's not high enough level to cast spells yet, and a Wand of Rhino's Rush is still a swift action to activate per the Rules Compendium, plus he can use wands of CLW/Faith Healing. That Elvencraft Composite Longbow Ancestral Relic Runestaff can have three wand chambers, so put wands of Wraithstrike, Wings of Cover, and Rhino's Rush in that and you can activate any of those while holding it.

HalfQuart
2015-10-22, 04:27 PM
I would go with the one with Paladin levels, mostly because Con Fort is such an important save and all of that build's saves are so much better.
I agree with this -- the compelling reason to start with Paladin is for boosting saves; the proficiencies are a nice added bonus. Having a rocking AC is all fine and dandy, but you need good saves also to not die.