Help me convince my DM about the ToB.

[Mad Wizard]

So, in the next D&D game I am going to play, the DM limited the amount of characters in the game to two. Ok, fine with that, even though I would like to be a wizard, and the two slots are full. I asked him if he would allow me to be a ToB class. He hadn't seen the ToB before, and when I showed it to him, he basically skimmed the manuver lists and decided that it was overpowered. His rational for this was mostly Strike of Perfect Clarity, which lets you deal +100 damage with an attack (this is a level 20 campaign). I told him that fighter type classes as-is are fairly weak, and that the ToB doesn't make them overpowered, it balances them. He still didn't believe me. How do I convince him about this?

[Indon]

Point out that with your +100 damage strike, you're only using a standard attack, and not doing a full attack in which you could feasibly do more damage by hitting more than once?

[Deel]

Pull out the PHB and read him some of the 9th level spells, or even some of the lower ones like forcecage. Then ask him to ban the PHB.

[Fax Celestis]

Ask him to be reasonable and give it a shot. Volunteer yourself as a playtester, and ask him to try to actively kill your character. Tell him that, after seeing the material in play for a few sessions, if he still feels it's overpowered, you'll drop it and play something else, with no argument.

[Mad Wizard]

Thanks, guys. I like the PHB idea, heh. :smallamused:

[The J Pizzel]

Not that it really matters, but I just bought the ToB and, (regrettably) I'm DMing, so I didn't get to play a class yet. One of my players asked to play a Warblade and my first thought was..."nnnaaaahhhh, not till I get to look over it a little more"...but, me being the decent person that I am decided "what the hey". I'm glad I did. The book is seriously overpowered and I'll never let a player play a class from it again.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

I'm just screwin with ya. The book is not overpowered at all. It, in fact, balances fighters in a world of magic users. The damage output of the Warblade and his maneuvers are quite incredible. I can honestly say I don't think anyone in my group will ever play a Barbarian, Fighter, or Monk again.

jp

[The_Snark]

It sort of depends on your group.

Let's suppose the other players were playing low-level wizards. Would they be likely to use Magic Missiles more than Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, and Charm Person? Will they load up on Scorching Rays and Fireballs over Glitterdust and Solid Fog? Would they consider Meteor Swarm among the most powerful of spells?

Similarly, if they played clerics and druids would they optimise their spell selection, stack lots of buffs, and use Natural Spell/Divine Metamagic? Would the players balk at taking Fighter up to level 20?

If your group is more the sort to have a Fireball-spamming sorcerer than a battle control wizard, I actually advise against using Tome of Battle. It's balanced for a game where the spellcasters are all pretty optimised, and while in those sorts of games it's better balanced than spellcasters, in a less optimized game it will overpower the other characters. An experience like that can put the DM or other players off Tome of Battle permanently, which isn't a good thing.

So, if your group is used to high-powered groups, then you can start comparing what a warblade could do to what the same level wizard could do. If they aren't, I'd suggest dropping the idea, really. If they fall somewhere in between, go with Fax's suggestion.

[JaronK]

Warblade 20: Strike of Perfect Clarity: Standard action to do 100 damage on a strike. Nifty.

Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10: Charge to do 4 attacks at +120 to damage, with no penalty to hit, if you took the right feats.

Wizard 20: Forcecage. No save, no SR, target is completely contained and out of the fight, regardless of hitpoints.

All things considered, ToB is just fine. Sure, it's stronger than most melees, but that's the point... melees are too weak and needed replacing anyway. ToB is lots of fun, and it's really what Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, and Paladins should have been all along.

JaronK

[Miles Invictus]

One argument against the ToB is that maneuvers refresh after every encounter or whenever a special action is performed, meaning that the ToB classes can theoretically fight indefinitely.

The counterargument, of course, is that D&D is designed around four encounters-per-day, and your typical high level spellcaster has enough spells-per-day (roughly one spell of each spell level) to deal with those encounters.

Oh, and your typical high level spellcaster can stop time, banish people to the center of the earth, and instantly kill based on the result of a single die roll.

[Darrin]

Pull out the PHB and read him some of the 9th level spells, or even some of the lower ones like forcecage. Then ask him to ban the PHB.

For example, Meteor Swarm: four ranged touch attacks that do an average of 28 damage, no save. If all four hit, that's about 112 damage without a save. (Maximized with a metamagic rod, it's 192 damage without a save.) If all four miss, and you make all four reflex saves, you still take at least 42 damage on average.

Both Meteor Swarm and Strike of Perfect Clarity are all direct damage, and can be circumvented with a variety of abilities or effects. There's a hit roll, AC, DR, etherealness, etc. that can reduce or negate damage. Imprisonment, Dominate Monster, or Power Word Kill are all a bit nastier.

[ghost_warlock]

Is the DM aware that you can only use a particular maneuver once per encounter unless you spend an entire round* doing nothing but refreshing them?

*conceivably less with the right feat.

[Darrin]

Is the DM aware that you can only use a particular maneuver once per encounter unless you spend an entire round* doing nothing but refreshing them?

*conceivably less with the right feat.

What, nobody plays Crusaders or Warblades?

The counter-argument is that wizards can't recover spells in the middle of combat, or even right after an encounter. A Warblade can recover all of his maneuvers and still full-attack. A Crusader never runs out (and if he picks his granted maneuvers right, can stave off death pretty much indefinately).

If you believe that hitting the "I Win" button in D&D is all about who does the most damage, then ToB is overpowered. And you may even get to enjoy your hard-won victory... right after you find someone who can cast discern location to figure out where your PC has been imprisoned, and then you need to find someone high enough level to cast Freedom, and then you'll track down that stinkin' wizard, follow him back to his tower so his stinkin' contingency/teleport spells don't help him out so much, past all those symbols of death, find a ghost weapon to wipe that ethereal smirk off his face, tear through a few simulacra, dispel his stoneskin/globe of invulnerability/anti-magic shell/spell immunity, then oh crap since when was he able to cast contingency+heal?

[Vazzaroth]

People just freak out at the +100 becuse it's more stunning than 20d8 or such that spells will be doing at those levels. Do some average roll sims on a electronic roller for spells at 20th level, and it will become apparent that the +100 is not just balanced, its almost weaker, as it requires melee and a succesful attack still.

Edit: I recently discovered that DnD spells are very much NOT about strict damage dice. It was a RPG rebirth for me. I'm no longer jeoulous of psions that have better damage, 'cause I know all it takes is a single spell that seems innocent enough... until you see that it makes them helpless, and open to a nice coup de grace from your freinds. :smallbiggrin:

[Roderick_BR]

Show him Logic Ninja's thread about how to make an optimized wizard. If that doesn't prove that *wizards* are overpowered...

Sorry, can't find the link myself now :p

[Jayabalard]

He still didn't believe me. How do I convince him about this?REally, there's nothing you can do to convince him... run your own campaign and include what you want to include.

[silentknight]

Try to convince him to read the ToB more fully, and have him compare to the spells and abilities of other classes. Maybe he'll let you play one later on. Otherwise, I don't think there is any way to force your DM to see your way.