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Tanarii

2015-10-21, 01:59 PM

Hi all,

Looking for advice on a making a build which I'm going to call "Death Knight".

Here's what I'm looking for: A Heavy Armor wearing, Greatsword wielding close in, & spell-blaster at range. That means HA, high Str, high casting stat.

Restrictions based on this DMs typical restrictions: No multiclassing. Feats are okay, but the Great-weapon one I should avoid, it's usually nerfed into uselessness. (Suggestions for multiclass builds are cool in terms of generalities, as I may take them to AL games, but I don't want to get too heavily invested into discussing details for them.)

Right now I'm thinking straight EK Fighter (Str/Int), with Spell Sniper (and maybe Magic Initiate). Other good fits for the concept might be a Paladin (Str/Cha) or Cleric (HA/Martial Weapon Domain, Str/Wis). Paladin blaster spells seem a little more close in as opposed to ranged. Cleric ... I haven't dug into their 'blaster' spells yet so I don't know how effective that might be.

deathbymanga

2015-10-21, 02:03 PM

Isn't the obvious route to go Paladin Oathbreaker?

broodax

2015-10-21, 02:25 PM

A little off-the path, since you can't multiclass, but you could try a Dwarf (gets medium armor) Bladelock and take Heavy Armor Proficiency as a feat. This would, I think, get you everything you want - much better ranged attacks than an EK, good up-close fighting, etc.

Tanarii

2015-10-21, 02:25 PM

I'll have to ask if Oathbreaker is an acceptable class. But certainly it's thematically most appropriate. :)

I've done Mountain Dwarf Warlock Gish build already. It's pretty cool. Although needing the stats are pretty crazy, since you need a 14 Dex on top of Str/Caster Stat/Con. Edit: Oh hey I didn't even think about Armor Feats. Thanks! That opens up Valor Bard too.

Human Paragon 3

2015-10-21, 03:51 PM

Vengeance Paladin with Magic Initiate Feat for Eldritch Blast cantrip, or dip Warlock.

Tanarii

2015-10-21, 04:58 PM

Or Vengeance Paladin with Spell Sniper for EB at level 2 or higher.

I'll have to take a close look at the Paladin vs EK vs Cleric Spell lists and see what appeals. I think that's going to be my biggest decision maker. Well, that and how much I want the EK level 7 & 10 class features, those look do damn tasty. But honestly with a physical melee and magical ranged focus, they probably won't combine very well.

Fwiffo86

2015-10-21, 05:18 PM

Mechaviking

2015-10-21, 09:24 PM

1. Any class that gets True Polymorph
2. Find and survive a deathknight
3. Use true Polymorph to become said deathknight
4. ???
5. Profit

Spend all your asi´s on feats that do stuff, maybe keep them, your stats permanently change and you might or might not lose your spellcasting ability.

Anecdote aside you are probably going to be poor at almost all of the things you want to do since you are trying to do all of them at once.

Also why is the greatweapon feat nerfed? Is it your group or dm that nerfs it or haven´t you found good uses for it? There is a fighter 1/Warlock 19, 20 strength, 20 charisma build that uses dragonborne and a greatweapon to great effect, usually by casting darkness on your greatweapon and killing **** with devilsight, you can check that one out.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49851/optimal-dragonborn-warlock-for-dpr-ac-with-blade-pact-and-fiend-patron/50327#50327 (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49851/optimal-dragonborn-warlock-for-dpr-ac-with-blade-pact-and-fiend patron/50327#50327)

I disagree with some of it but the idea is sound.

Enjoy :D

Tanarii

2015-10-22, 12:28 AM

it's a thing with the DM.

The character probably won't make it past ten. I just liked the theme of a heavily armored guy with a big sword that can point his finger and say DIE! Obviously since its lower level, it's be a Cantrips attack or low level spell, not Finger of Death. So I naturally thought EK.

I'm leaning to either a Human Paladin or Human EK with Magic Initiate at level 1. I like the EK spells a bit more in terms of moar blastiness (ie Evocation spells). On the other hand Pally would get Command, Compelled Duel, and Hold Person (vengeance) early on, as well as Abjure Enemy Channel Divinity. They may not do damage but they fit the 'Do As I Say!' theme.

If I go Pally I'd probably do:
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16
Magic Initiate - Eldritch Blast, (Chill Touch for range?, Armor of Agathys?)
First ASI probably +2 Str since I'll most likely melee more often than range. Not sure after that.

Only problem is other than the spells I mentioned (plus Bane) it runs out of thematic spells pretty quick. Although I may be overly focused on that? Besides, thinking about it, a low level EK wouldn't get past 2nd level spells anyway, and none of them would be commandy, only blasty/defensive.

For an AL character I'd almost certainly want to be a Pally 2 / Pact Blade Fiend Warlock X, eventually picking up Finger of Death as my 7th level Mystic Arcanum. Sounds like a Death Knight to me. :) Same stats would work I think, just starting with a different feat.

Malifice

2015-10-22, 01:28 AM

Fiend Warlock + Oathbreaker Paladin.

Done.

Ah: Just saw no MC. That sucks.

Oathbreaker Paladin is appropriate. Go CE for the laughs.

Tanarii

2015-10-22, 01:46 AM

Is Oathbreaker legal in AL? I wasn't sure if DMG NPC options would be. If so I'll definitely consider a Pally 3 / Warlock X (Oathbreaker, Fiend, Blade) next season. Although delaying the extra attack for three levels might really hurt on the mechanical side.

Malifice

2015-10-22, 02:03 AM

Tanarii

2015-10-22, 02:56 AM

Malifice

2015-10-22, 04:38 AM

There's no point in going all the way up to 5 if I'm already going to get the extra attack from Thirsting Blade, it's redundant. Level 2 for Smite and 2 extra spell slots is plenty.

I'd only do the third if Oathbreaker was allowed, as it fits thematically. Vengeance would work, but honestly I don't think delaying the extra attack is worth the Channel Divinity. Not really sure it would be with Oathbreaker but that just fits the feel too well.

Edit: oh wait, are you saying pally 6, the 1 (maybe 2) warlock, then back to pally? That's a totally different thing. I'll have to consider it.

Yeah. You get extra Attack from Pali at 5, and you get +cha to all saves at 6th.

That's literally one of the best abilities in the game. At oath breaker 7 you get +Cha to damage too anyway. Screw waiting till 12th for it.

In fact, screw going a bladelock at all. You need 12 levels to make it worth it. And at Paladin 11 you get +1d8 to damage anyway (so as good as the big blade invocation anyway) Go chain for the amazing utility of the familiar seeing as you're only dipping probably 5 levels for 2 replenishing 3rd level slots to fuel smites, agonising blast and Eldritch blast and temp HP on a kill from your fiend pact.

gullveig

2015-10-22, 07:00 AM

There is also the Clerics Death Domain... Medium armor, martial weapons, focus com "deathy" stuff.
Just take variant Human and get Heavy Armour proficiency and you are done.
I think it is "gisher" on the martial-caster axis than Oathbreaker paladin and less complicated/overrated than the Bladelock.

Also... I heard that there will be some Death themed Warlock someday, but I'm not sure.

Person_Man

2015-10-22, 07:37 AM

To answer your question regarding blasty spells, they are useful when they can target 3+ enemies (for mooks), and/or when they include a status effect (for boss enemies your party can't reasonably kill in one round). The trick to using them is to target enemies weak Saving Throws. For example, don't target small enemies with a Dex Save spell, because they probably have high Dex. The best blasters in the game are the Sorcerer (Metamagic) and at mid-levels Warlocks (spells auto-scale up to 5th level), though any full caster will be decent at it. Don't spam blasty spells every combat, because they're not useful in every combat. Only cast them when it makes sense, and have other non-blasty spells (cantrips, Conjure, debuffs, buffs, etc) prepared for when they don't.

Also, I suggest strait Nature Cleric as the ideal "Death Knight" given your parameters.

Nature often includes Death in many campaign/story worlds (survival of the fittest, cycle of life and death, Unseelie, Winter, etc). The Domain grants Heavy Armor. Spell list includes Shillelagh, so you can just max out Wisdom to 20 while still having respectably high Str needed to avoid the penalty from wearing heavy armor (or you could play a Dwarf). Divine Strike + Spiritual Weapon + (when needed) Spirit Guardians gives you plenty of damage. Cast them out of higher level slots or use Flame Strike or some other blasty spell when you need burst damage. Cleric also has all of the Undead and Resurrection related spells by default.

I would not suggest multi-classing unless you're starting the game at mid-high levels and tend to run a 5+ combats per game day. Access to higher level spells is typically more powerful than slightly better average at-will damage output or slightly better AC or whatever, and will solve/win more encounters in the long run. (The counter argument is that if your DM does a "world's largest dungeon" or some other similar rogue-like/grindy survival oriented game, then stacking a bunch of at-will benefits usually is the way to go). For example, dipping 2 levels for Paladin's Smite can be counter productive because you can get higher damage and/or other better effects out of using a high level spell in many circumstances (though sometimes less often).

Sception

2015-10-22, 08:45 PM

Simplest build is variant human paladin, oathbreaker if allowed, vengeance if not, with the spell sniper feat at first level to pick up eldritch blast. Stay paladin all the way to 20, buffing strength and cha until they're both maxed, and then grab whatever else you feel like with the last boost (resilient con? Since your group arbitrarily nerfs GWM, and you really want to use a great sword, not much else to get worked up over). With the 'magical dark knight' character theme, you'd really like a race with darkvision, but at the same time you cannot afford to delay your stat progression when no matter what you do you're going to be stuck with two attack stats (and even normal paladins are under incredible presser to max cha in in addition to strength), so if you want that magic attack, which you're really only going to get from a feat, then there you go.

There's not a lot of wiggle room when you're build is as precise as 'heavily armored magical dark knight who mostly melees with a great sword but can pew pew with magic when unable to close with the enemy, but no multiclassing, and no GWM feat'.

The alternative is an Eldritch Knight. Also gets you the heavy armor, ability to fight with a great sword, magical subtheme, and ability to pick up a blasting cantrip native, with no feat investment. Not quite as 'dark knighty' as an oathbreaker or vengeance paladin, but it's an option, and you can still go with a darkvision race, since feats aren't as much of an issue there. The new sword coast book adds some decent wizard melee weapon attack cantrips that are clearly meant for the bladesinger (more wizard than warrior, not a fit for a heavily armored character concept), but are a much better fit for the eldritch knight. A decent option.

---------------------------

Personally, I like oathbreaker paladins with a 2+ level warlock dip, starting somewhere after level 6 (the second attack at 5 and +cha to saves aura are just too much to delay) or 7 (if oathbreaker is an option, that damage aura's super sweet, especially if you have a necromancer wizard in the party).

A level of warlock gets you eldritch blast, a recharging spell slot to smite with, and your patron bonus (fiend being the obvious fit both mechanically and thematically)

Two levels gets you another recharging smite slot, and a couple of invocations of which there are many super useful ones (agonizing blast is a default choice, but for theme and utility I love Devil's sight, especially with the oathbreaker's darkness oath spell)

Three levels means you'll never get the expanded paladin aura range, but you get your pact. Bladelock is the obvious best fit thematically, but booklock offers the ability to pick up shilegleg (no I can't spell it) as a warlock spell and thus frees you up to not buff your strength (though you likely still needed to invest heavily in Str at char creation due to how long you have to wait for this), and buying you two feat slots back, for a net gain of one since you're losing an advance from your paladin levels at this point. But to use that you need to fight with a staff instead of a greatsword (although staff lets you use polearm mastery, and you can still fight with a shield). Your recharging smite slots also go up to level two.

Eventually you need to get at least level 11 paladin for the improved damage on all of your melee attacks. After that, well, I'd stick with paladin, ending up paladin 17 or 18, warock 2 or 3, but you can lean warlock instead, Pal12 warlock 8 is a decent end point target as well, though you lose a lot from lack of higher level spell access that way.

but that's all dependent on multiclassing being allowed, so.... meh.

Crusher

2015-10-22, 11:44 PM

Yeah. You get extra Attack from Pali at 5, and you get +cha to all saves at 6th.

That's literally one of the best abilities in the game. At oath breaker 7 you get +Cha to damage too anyway. Screw waiting till 12th for it.

In fact, screw going a bladelock at all. You need 12 levels to make it worth it. And at Paladin 11 you get +1d8 to damage anyway (so as good as the big blade invocation anyway) Go chain for the amazing utility of the familiar seeing as you're only dipping probably 5 levels for 2 replenishing 3rd level slots to fuel smites, agonising blast and Eldritch blast and temp HP on a kill from your fiend pact.

I'm just starting as a player in a new campaign (I'm playing a Paladin from an order that captured a demon lord centuries ago and was slowly corrupted by them. He's NE and isn't really very paladin-y (not really seriously evil, just self-absorbed and surprisingly cavalier about things like saving innocent peasants) and at level 1 doesn't understand why the Paladins accepted him into the order. But then at level 3 he discovers what's going on and his order makes him pledge loyalty to their master and multiclass to Warlock. Warlock up to 3 for Chain, then back to Paladin at which point he'll break from his Order and become an Oathbreaker. I worked it all out with the DM ahead of time. He should be great fun to role-play and somewhat confusing to the other players, claiming he's casting "Divine Smite" at ranged enemies and such) and ended up following the exact same chain of thought, ending up in the same place. Bladelock only works if you're going to take at least 12 levels of it, and then you're putting off that huge +save bonus for ages. Going primarily Paladin, you're better off with Chain or Tome, depending on how you want to play.

Malifice

2015-10-22, 11:54 PM

I'm just starting as a player in a new campaign (I'm playing a Paladin from an order that captured a demon lord centuries ago and was slowly corrupted by them. He's NE and isn't really very paladin-y (not really seriously evil, just self-absorbed and surprisingly cavalier about things like saving innocent peasants) and at level 1 doesn't understand why the Paladins accepted him into the order. But then at level 3 he discovers what's going on and his order makes him pledge loyalty to their master and multiclass to Warlock. Warlock up to 3 for Chain, then back to Paladin at which point he'll break from his Order and become an Oathbreaker. I worked it all out with the DM ahead of time. He should be great fun to role-play and somewhat confusing to the other players, claiming he's casting "Divine Smite" at ranged enemies and such) and ended up following the exact same chain of thought, ending up in the same place. Bladelock only works if you're going to take at least 12 levels of it, and then you're putting off that huge +save bonus for ages. Going primarily Paladin, you're better off with Chain or Tome, depending on how you want to play.

Mirrors my view too mate. Paladin straight to 7 for oathbreaker (delaying extra attack at 5th, +Cha to saves at 6th and +Cha to damage at 7th is too much).

'Lock doesnt really give you much more than a good ranged attack (nice for a Paladin - it's their one weakness) and a few recharging spell slots for Smite.

I like the scouting/ exploration utility of Chain. OK in combat when you send your imp flying into thier face (using the help action) to grant you advantage on attack rolls. Worst case scenario, your enemy attacks the Imp (and not you, so it's still a win). You can always get the imp back pretty easily after a short rest and 10p. He'll come to hate you, but meh - you're the boss.

djreynolds

2015-10-23, 12:30 AM

I just rolled up a strength based Eladrin Eldritch Knight, I threw my 8 in dex and came out with a 10, good enough. Point is misty step is that good as is the shield spell and in this case heavy armor master. So I would go vengeance paladin and grab magic initiate and take the shield spell, or eldritch knight, mirror image at 7th level. But I'm leaning paladin, dimension door is just awesome.

Crusher

2015-10-24, 01:12 AM

Mirrors my view too mate. Paladin straight to 7 for oathbreaker (delaying extra attack at 5th, +Cha to saves at 6th and +Cha to damage at 7th is too much).

'Lock doesnt really give you much more than a good ranged attack (nice for a Paladin - it's their one weakness) and a few recharging spell slots for Smite.

I like the scouting/ exploration utility of Chain. OK in combat when you send your imp flying into thier face (using the help action) to grant you advantage on attack rolls. Worst case scenario, your enemy attacks the Imp (and not you, so it's still a win). You can always get the imp back pretty easily after a short rest and 10p. He'll come to hate you, but meh - you're the boss.

Indeed. Also, it has tremendous value from a role-playing, party-helping standpoint. This party is going to be fairly rogue-heavy, but I'm by far the most experienced player in the group and I'm not particularly confident in their ability to do proper reconnaissance without getting themselves killed. An invisible flying imp with a +7 or so stealth bonus would probably be a lot better at it. Plus, from level 1 on, he's going to be someone who does a fair bit of chatting quietly to himself, and once he multi-classes to Warlock he's going to start pretending to have an imaginary friend who he talks to and asks questions. The party just won't realize that the imaginary friend will eventually be an actual invisible imp sitting on his shoulder. When things look dicey ahead, he'll break out his "Sacred Scouting" spell to check out what things look like in the room ahead.

And I agree. It can work either way, primarily Lock with a Paladin dip, or primarily Paladin with a Lock dip. But if you're going primarily Paladin, Bladelock doesn't really make sense, and other than for RP purposes its hard to see a good reason to go more than 3 levels in Lock. Well, maybe 5 eventually so you pick up the feat and upgrade your quick recharging smites to 4-dice ones, but that's certainly it.