Seeking Input on Campaign Scenario

[Eldonauran]

Hey Playgrounders!

I posted this on the paizo forums as well but wanted to see if you guys had some input as well.



Greetings!

The last few weeks, I've been contemplating a new campaign for my players and my ideas have finally coalesced into something tangible. In fact, the pot is full and nearly boiling over. So, on to the good stuff!

Setting specifics:

Golarion setting, about two thousand years into the future, so expect a more steampunk sort of feel as magic and technology has started to intermingle. Less of the world is unexplored due to ease of travel and technological advances in defense/offense, though it is no less wild. Gnomes are widely credited for this advancement (more details on request).

The Worldwound has been closed.

Good and Evil countries have drifted to Neutrality. All countries are currently shifting towards Lawful, thought most are still True Neutral. There are no more chaotic countries (see TN above) and all (almost all) nomadic tribes, monstrous humanoids, etc have come together in more of a civilized manner. Those that have no longer in existence, either abandoned or hidden from the outside world. Warfare between countries becomes rare.

Direct interference by Outsiders has decreased dramatically. Summoning still works but very few appear willing to remain in the Material plane for long.

Divine magic has experienced a change. The deities that represent Good and those that represent Evil have been slowly fading from the forefront. Less and less worshippers are being granted spells, though the spells are just as powerful and effective as always. These deities still respond to request and communicate with their followers, but are often vague with responses, as if distracted. As a result, the Neutral deities have experienced an increase in popularity, the Lawful ones most of all. Like the Good/Evil deities, the Chaotic Neutral deities are seeming to fade into the background, though they aren't as interested in communicating. Especially Gorum.


So, here is where things get ... really interesting.

No new souls are being born. Pregnancies are resulting in still-births very rarely more than 8 weeks into term. This is not limited to a single race or creature type. Every animate, sentient creature that reproduces and possesses Int, Wis and Cha scores of 1 or higher do not survive long past conception. Even sentient plant creatures are experiencing this. Regular plants seem to be uneffected. Resurrection type spells are still functional.

This has thrown the world into confusion and the church of Pharasma is at the dead center of this maelstrom of confusion. Not even two months into this had many of them whispering about the 'End', the prophecied time when the stream of souls comes to an end and Pharasma's role nears its conclusion. They now have the soul responsbility to prepare the world for this coming event. Trouble is ... that's not what is going on. Pharasma can see the end of the stream and it is not time! Something has gone horribly wrong and she can not see what! She will need to take matters into her own hands.

This is where I want to get some input. I want to flesh out the setting so that it feels realistic to the players, who will be one of the last few souls born. How does the world initially react to something like this? How does their mentality adapt to the thought of oblivion not more than a few 'generations' in the future? How do the longer lived races look upon the shorter lived races and know that even they will perish long after the others?

All this is important. The characters will either have grown up during this time (if short-lived) or witnessed the start of this period (if long-lived). The adventure starts with Pharasma herself appearing in the dreams of the Adventurers, beckoning them to action. This is meant to be a very powerful experience and much will be laid at the player's feet in regards to responsibility. Undoubtedly, the character's will ask why they where chosen. They will ask what's in it for them. They will ask what happens if they refuse. She will answer them truthfully. They are the last vestiges of Chaos left on Golarion and they have no choice if they seek to have a future.

She will not allow them to die and pass into judgement until the mission is fulfilled. Should they fall, they will rise again. Should they fail, they will be left as the only living, sentient creatures on the planet when all the rest have died from old age, with only themselves and the local vegetation for company.

If they ask her if she knows what is going on, she will give them a sly smile and reply that she does. "The forces of Good and Evil have united with Chaos, seeking freedom from their responsibilites in this universe. They have finally realized, as I did long ago, that they can not win in this struggle. They were just clever enough to change the rules. I still have a role to fill and now, so do you..."

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Every animate, sentient creature that reproduces and possesses Int, Wis and Cha scores of 1 or higher do[es] not survive long past conception.

Since this definition encompasses every fish, reptile, bird and mammal in the Pathfinder Bestiary, does this mean that all vertebrates are suddenly experiencing the same reproductive failures?

If so, you're looking at planetary ecological collapse in a matter of months, a year or two at the outside, with biomes going haywire and mass starvation as fast-reproducing prey animals die out. Rodents have extremely fast generation times, which means that without mice, voles and the like, many raptors will die of starvation and the survivors will double down on small songbirds, reducing those populations to irrelevance and leading to a grand explosion of insects.

Those insects will strip bare the forests and plains, with countless caterpillars creating one last storm of butterflies who will die in droves, great multicolored snowdrifts across a landscape of tattered forests and fields stripped to stubble. Similar effects will ripple through the rivers, lakes and oceans of the world; large predatory fish will perish of starvation as their smaller prey die out, and uncontrolled algal blooms will dominate many freshwater lakes as fish larvae fail to control zooplankton, which will cause wild variations in phytoplankton populations.

Many sources of freshwater will be contaminated by the resulting decomposition, as well as accelerated runoff from watersheds in which trees and grasses no longer filter contaminants or retain vital topsoil. The beaches of every ocean will become a gelatinous mass of decomposing jellyfish, having died en masse for want of fish, and the seabeds will be littered with the carcasses of whales.

With farmlands stripped by blizzards of insects, water supplies doubtful and starving predators roaming the land, most civilizations will collapse virtually overnight, with only those fortresses remaining which had the luck, foresight or ruthless aggression to hoard grains and other foodstuffs. Among the "civilized" races I would expect cannibalism to become rampant, with sentients viewing each other as the largest and most reliable sources of food. Which races dominate in this environment will depend on what percentage of each population has the skills and temperament to hunt other races for sustenance.

A desperation effort by the world's divine casters might be able to provide enough food to keep remnant societies minimally functioning--if only there were enough divine casters anymore. I would expect the world's last druids to be in a dead panic, feverishly researching every possible fertility spell, while the world's necromancers will be having a field day, with raw materials in spectacular abundance and doomsday cults of every sort springing up among dwindling communities everywhere.

In these last few months of vertebrate life on the world, with nations dissolving and survivors feeding on each other, racial differences will be submerged beneath the tide of hunger and panic. Most fortresses and defensible points with stockpiled food will be under siege, and one by one they will be overrun and smothered, until only a comparative handful of the strongest positions will remain, profoundly isolated in vast expanses of ruined land. The adventurers may have found sanctuary in one of these last remaining refuges--or they may be trying to gain entrance along with countless other starving refugees.

As you've defined it, this will be a world disintegrating into social and environmental chaos, a world in which all signs point to a rapid and inevitable descent into darkness and utter despair. If there are warforged, nimblewrights or similar constructs in any numbers, they will inherit the earth--and they may not wait for events to run their course.

[Eldonauran]

Excellent reply! Thank you very much! I'll address a few of the items to give a better picture, overall.

Yes, the overall plan is the elimination of reproductive capabilities of all animal life. Anything that could conceivable have a soul is no longer receiving the animating force from the positive energy plane and dies shortly after conception. This is key towards the plot, as the other Gods try to deflect attention from their overall goals. It is also a side effect of their success.

Based on your proposed problems, I will have the Druids react quickly to the problem and find a way to stem the reproductive capabilities of the insects. I think this will help matters immensely. This way, the population is not driven into madness and we have a hope of semi-stable continuation. There will be the problem of canabalism among people that can not, or will not adapt to a pure plant based diet. There should be plenty of bugs around to eat, too.

I'm picturing different races coming together in large numbers as the overall population decreases, trying to find a solution to the growing problem. No one method is being ignored and, yes, necromancy is going to play a huge role though the church of Pharasma is not going to like it.

I foresee conflict rising up first from the shortest of the short-lived races. Goblins, hobgoblins, etc, as their time runs out faster and they get more desperate.

[Honest Tiefling]

I imagine eating bugs would suddenly become quite popular, given that without livestock and lot of nutrition famine is a big possibility. Never mind the dang fertilizer needed to keep the plants alive.

Given the extent of the destruction, I would quite imagine that druids are quite busy. Hostile fey, plants and even longer lived animals might run amok given that the people keeping them out of cities are trying to keep those very same people from eating each other. Keeping every single ecosystem and many farms from utter collapse means they are completely occupied and unable to do anything else.

I would also imagine that undeath suddenly becomes popular. There's no mention of a lack of sorcerers/wizards/witches, so pursuing such might be a better option. With a lack of religion, there might not be a lot of reassurance about the after life, and if all that stands between this world and the apocalypse is a bunch of people dressed in leaves, why not? Not like you're hurting anything, this place is boned anyway. The trick is finding an undead form that's bearable and doesn't need to eat.

Heck, why bother with the doomsday cults, even? If you have a handful of clerics, get them to make as much food as possible and store it. A cunning vampire might be able to live and sustain a small population of cattle. If your choices are 1) A painful starvation 2) Death by insect horde being nibbled upon by a vampire might be far more appealing. Why not do bread and circuses if you are literally the only person who can give them bread?

[Eldonauran]

With a lack of religion, there might not be a lot of reassurance about the after life, and if all that stands between this world and the apocalypse is a bunch of people dressed in leaves, why not?
Religion is still alive and well in this world. Most of the Gods have become distant but are still supplying most of their followers with spells. It is just less and less new clergy are being granted spells. As a response to that, the LN, TN gods are receiving more than their normal share of worshipers and they are supplying spells. Business is booming, actually.

[Honest Tiefling]

Religion is still alive and well in this world. Most of the Gods have become distant but are still supplying most of their followers with spells. It is just less and less new clergy are being granted spells. As a response to that, the LN, TN gods are receiving more than their normal share of worshipers and they are supplying spells. Business is booming, actually.

My understanding is that the neutral planes are...Not all that great to live in, really. I think it depends greatly on one's interpretation, but not everyone is going to be reassured that they'll go to a city when they die.

[Eldonauran]

My understanding is that the neutral planes are...Not all that great to live in, really. I think it depends greatly on one's interpretation, but not everyone is going to be reassured that they'll go to a city when they die.

That's a good point, actually. Though I'm not sure the majority of the populace that worships these gods are really aware of how things work in the greater scheme of things. I'd expect mid-level clerics and other clergy with ranks in Know religion and planes to have a fairly good idea, but not commoners.

I suppose knowledge that no new souls are being born would cause increased concern with the afterlife. This will lead to either a HUGE push towards learning and preparing themselves for it, or completely avoiding it. This is really great stuff. Thanks for the input.

Clearly we are going to be organizing several factions that will be of interest to the players. We will have the following:


Church of Pharasma: Most likely a refuge for the players at most times. They will be working behind the scenes with preparing most people for their final journey into the hereafter. With no new souls being born, those that remain need to live to their full potential to ensure proper judgement. They will also be opposed to most necromancy and undead factions. Works closely with the Nature Wardens in respect to undead threats.

Nature Wardens: Druids and other spellcasters seeking to preserve the balance still left in the world. With the loss of most animal life, the vermin population continues to be a threat tough great strides have been made with the local fey and sentient plant life. Much focus is spent in protecting food sources and keeping the more terrible forces of nature at bay. Takes the treat of undead very seriously and works with the Church of Pharasma. In rare occasions, the Druids will reincarnate various people who have proven themselves extremely valuable to the world's continued existence.

The Disbelievers: A spattering of groups that refuse to believe that this is the end. They are inherently suspicious of the Druids and think that they are behind the infertility. Often irrational, they have begun to believe that it is the crops tended by the Druids that are either behind the infertility or are prolonging it. They are a source of mayhem in the cities and outlying farm areas, attempting occasional raids and burning the crops. This problem is only made worse as they are suspected to by subsiding on humanoid flesh.

The Embracers: A small but becoming more prominent group that has embraced the dark and cold future foreseen. They peddle drugs, flesh (both for pleasure and food), and promises of immortality. Necromancers make up some of the higher ranks and even more than a few undead, mostly Vampires. The chaos created by the Disbelievers is encouraged as it keeps eyes from their own activities.

The Scornful: Many of the aging populace of the short-live races, mostly goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears and other less 'civilized' humanoids, are reaching the end of their natural lifespans and are soon to pass out of existence. Much of their ire is directed towards the longer lived races and they have begun to target them. For each one of the short-lived races to die, they have vowed to kill one of the longer-lived races.

The Scholars: This group encompasses many races, mostly those of the longer-lived races though there are many older members of the short-lived races (some reincarnated), that seek to understand the issue with infertility, the loss of new souls, and how to combat the impending doom. Very little is forbidden from the scholars in their experiments, though different sects exist within it as one might have theories unpalatable to another, though they are all united by the same goal. More civilized and elite undead are tolerated in the ranks of the Scholars but they are more-or-less kept an open secret.

The Underground: This group is almost entirely made of lower forms of undead that feast on the flesh of the living. Though still sentient, they grow ravenous enough to become dangerous. Anyone that is unlucky enough to be caught by this group wishes for death within hours. At the head of this group is a powerful caster that uses her magic to regenerate the flesh of their victims and keep them alive for years, until the person perishes and rises as a new member of the undead.


Any thoughts on additional groups to throw into the mix?

[Bucky]

I'd suggest a group of construct-crafters trying to make fake children. Possibly with the intention of replacing themselves with a society of intelligent (wax?) golems.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Based on your proposed problems, I will have the Druids react quickly to the problem and find a way to stem the reproductive capabilities of the insects.

Well, it's your scenario, but I'm not sure how the druids could do this on a global scale. There are countless trillions of insects on every continent, with the greatest collective biomass of any animal group and roughly 10 quintillion (10,000,000,000,000,000,000) individuals at any given time. I don't see how the druids themselves would be able to have any impact on global insect populations.

Also keep in mind this will be a catastrophe that starts out invisibly and accelerates to a terrifying pace. The druids will probably lose the first couple months wondering what's happening to the thousands of species of vertebrates, as entire forests' worth of birds suffer total nest failure, small carnivores quickly starve, and rivers disgorge long shoals of dead fish into the seas. Unless someone gives the druids a celestial heads-up, they will most likely be occupied looking for environmental rather than spiritual causes of the mass reproductive collapse, which will put them well behind the curve. By the time they realize not a single nestling has appeared anywhere in the world, the tide of insects will have already become a tsunami.

And as Honest T. points out, the druids will have their hands full with all manner of other emerging threats, which may leave them unable to work in concert when they're individually fighting for their lives.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Yes, the overall plan is the elimination of reproductive capabilities of all animal life. Anything that could conceivabl[y] have a soul is no longer receiving the animating force from the positive energy plane and dies shortly after conception. This is key towards the plot, as the other Gods try to deflect attention from their overall goals. It is also a side effect of their success.

This is a little cryptic, and I assume this touches on aspects of celestial dealings you haven't mentioned yet. What are their overall goals, and how does their "success" involve widespread reproductive failure? How do deities of fertility, nature and rebirth maintain their portfolios when that aspect of the living world is apparently lost?

Beyond that, I'm not sure how deities which are supposed to be the archetypes of Good would allow an entire world to fall into this kind of catastrophe and despair. If an individual deity loses interest in the world, and that entity is Good, it seems more likely it would nominate a successor rather than let everything fall apart.

Speaking of which….


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
[The adventurers] are the last vestiges of Chaos left on Golarion….

It seems to me that a world descending into spiritual and ecological ruin would become a mad playground for Chaos. Your definitions of these principles may be different than mine, but with the unraveling of social and natural order, it's hard to imagine how the overall chaos quotient wouldn't spike off the charts.

It's the end of the world: it'll be messy. The adventurers may certainly be chaotic themselves, but something tells me they won't want for company.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Religion is still alive and well in this world. Most of the Gods have become distant but are still supplying most of their followers with spells. It is just less and less new clergy are being granted spells.

This confuses me tremendously. How are the gods "distant" if they're still granting spells? And if fewer and fewer clergy are receiving spells, how is religion alive and well?


Originally posted by Eldonauran
Any thoughts on additional groups to throw into the mix?

What are the dragons of the world doing about this? On the one hand, their lifespans far outstrip most humanoid races--but if they understand what's happening, they know that all the large animals they normally feed on will be dead or dying in a few years, if starving humanoids don't eat them first.

No dragon would subsist on insects or grass, so feeding on humanoids seems like the only viable solution. I would expect at least some far-thinking dragons to begin collecting humanoid herds, and perhaps preemptively attacking necromancers to prevent those tasty, nutritious humans becoming vile, tainted and inedible undead.

[Eldonauran]

Also keep in mind this will be a catastrophe that starts out invisibly and accelerates to a terrifying pace. The druids will probably lose the first couple months wondering what's happening to the thousands of species of vertebrates, as entire forests' worth of birds suffer total nest failure, small carnivores quickly starve, and rivers disgorge long shoals of dead fish into the seas. Unless someone gives the druids a celestial heads-up, they will most likely be occupied looking for environmental rather than spiritual causes of the mass reproductive collapse, which will put them well behind the curve. By the time they realize not a single nestling has appeared anywhere in the world, the tide of insects will have already become a tsunami.


I think the time tables you are giving seem a little rapid. I'm estimating roughly a year before things are actually starving to death. I'm not expert by any means but not having reproductive abilities for few months does not seem disastrous. Many creatures will still be around, keeping the insect population in check (maybe not successfully but will slow it down).

Either way, I'm not too intent on running an perfectly accurate 'simulator' of the insect apocalypse (no offense). I'm definitely interested in making them a problem. The gods are a bit distant/distracted but are not uncaring. I'm sure that they can run a little, non-direct, interference.


This is a little cryptic, and I assume this touches on aspects of celestial dealings you haven't mentioned yet. What are their overall goals, and how does their "success" involve widespread reproductive failure? How do deities of fertility, nature and rebirth maintain their portfolios when that aspect of the living world is apparently lost?

It is supposed to be a little cryptic and hints towards my unique creation theory for the universe.

In a short summary, the entire morality system is a contrived method to harness energies from a subjugated universe. The universe was in its infant stage, a roiling ball of pure chaotic creation energy with limitless potential, when an outsider breached its reality and rent the power in twain. Thus was born the positive and negative energy plane, ripe for consumption. Unfortunately for the outsider, the universe was sentient and lashed back out at him with pure chaotic energies. This forced the entity to flee but it was unable to fully escape.

This chaotic burst of energy was nearly limitless and rushed after the outsider, covering unimaginable distances in its attempt to consume it. Thus the Maelstrom was born, the first of the Outter Planes. Left alone, the positive and negative energy planes attempted to rejoin but were unable to due to their new forms. The shadow plane and ethereal planes were born from the energies of the attempted merging between the two, and the Astral formed around everything. Dimly connected, the two entities of positive and negative energies slumbered, dreaming of creation.

The outsider managed to isolate itself from the Maelstrom until the pursuit lessened and upon seeing the slumber of the two entities beyond its touch, it decided to harvest the energies in a slower, yet more efficient way. Tapping into its own reserve, it combine energies of the Maelstom with its own essence and birthed the first God. Its purpose was to harvest the energies of the Maelstrom to build a prison for the positive and negative energy planes, and set the foundation for 'Life'. Given its duty, the first God separated the Maelstrom into component parts, creating the energy planes around what would be known eventually as the Material Plane. Fire, Water, Earth and Air. A cocoon of elements where used to set the Outter Planes apart from the Material.

The Outsider peeked into the slumbering entities and saw their dreams of the First World. Widely known now as the birthplace of the Fey, the Outsider used this dream as a template to create the remainder of the Material Realm. All the stars, planets and spaces between. Here is where its power would grow and be harvested. The second God was created, Pharasma, given the duty to judge the souls of the living into the rightful places so that their energies could be harvested for grander schemes. Pharasma was initially unaware of what had transpired before her creation, but she learned eventually through contact with the first God.

From that point on, the other Outter Planes came into existence, created as processing grounds for the various alignments that would serve as fuel. Chaos is the raw form of the universes energies, lethal to the Outsider in its primal form. Law is the order in which Good and Evil are drawn out of the universe, sorely sought after by the Outsider. To be used, it has to be first kindled by the fires of the positive energy plane, tempered by a life of struggle and siphoned off in the afterlife. The negative energy plane serves as a dumping ground from unusable energies. Whatever doesn't get stripped away there is eventually ejected from the positive energy plane, for another trip through the system (think undead here).

Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil energies are usuable, but still 'dirty'. It takes longer for soul's to give up their energies in the afterlife and the leftover chaos is returned to the system for another go around. Petitioners are what remains of the soul after its unique component of chaos has been processed and taken away, remembering little of what made it unique.

So, the characters are the last souls that came through the process with much of their Chaotic energies intact. Perhaps they are old souls that have been recycled a few times due to their stubbornness to conform. That depends on what they chose for alignments. Whether or not the world devolved into 'chaos' (little 'c') has no impact on the moral energies acquired.

So, that's a brief summary. The idea is that the 'soul' energy being unavailable means the system is nearly at its end. The fuel is running out and big changes are happening. The reason the Gods are distant is twofold.

First, many of them did not know the true origins of the universe but thanks to Asmodeus and clever bargaining with the first God, the secret is out. Knowing the secret of their origins and the great wrong dealt to universe, the Gods have overcome their differences, united for the time being into restoring the rightful order.

Secondly, the remainder of the God, those that are distant, have actually diverted the flow of souls from the Material Realm and are flooding the First World with its long awaited energy. They are quite busy making sure that things do not go haywire there and are preparing for the awakening of the original beings of the universe. The Gods are still answering existing followers in order to keep a low profile in the grand scheme of things and not clue anyone in. Most of the Neutral Gods (LN and TN) are not involved in the scheme but a few are, playing interference.


What are the dragons of the world doing about this? On the one hand, their lifespans far outstrip most humanoid races--but if they understand what's happening, they know that all the large animals they normally feed on will be dead or dying in a few years, if starving humanoids don't eat them first.

No dragon would subsist on insects or grass, so feeding on humanoids seems like the only viable solution. I would expect at least some far-thinking dragons to begin collecting humanoid herds, and perhaps preemptively attacking necromancers to prevent those tasty, nutritious humans becoming vile, tainted and inedible undead.

I'm still contemplating the role of dragons. No doubt they will be a concern, especially the evil ones. I expect that some of them might have gotten wind of the change and made for the First World. Travel to that area is going to be extremely restricted for very obvious reasons. Some might have gone into deep slumber or be terrorizing the area. It a mixed bag here.

Rings of Sustenance are going to be widely in demand ...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
I think the time tables you are giving seem a little rapid. I'm estimating roughly a year before things are actually starving to death. I'm not expert by any means but not having reproductive abilities for few months does not seem disastrous.

Meadow voles (Microtus pennsylvanicus) are prolific breeders, sometimes producing up to a dozen litters per year, and they're staple food items for snakes, raptors, foxes, weasels and other small carnivores. A sudden loss in Microtus production will be felt within 1-2 months as populations are eaten down by their many predators. Deer mice, white-footed mice, cotton mice and other Peromyscus usually produce 3-4 litters a year, which means their loss will be felt in 3-4 months, if not sooner as small carnivores double down on them in the absence of Microtus.

Cotton rats (Sigmodon hispidus) and woodrats (Neotoma sp.) produce 2-4 litters per year, so their absence will begin to register 3-6 months in, although again their populations will likely decline much earlier due to increased predation pressure. Larger rodents such as squirrels and muskrats usually have 2-3 litters per year, so their populations will begin to fall just as the smaller rodents are dying out from age and predation.

The interplay of birds and insects will depend on what season the reproductive failure begins. If the onset of failure is just before or during spring breeding, insect populations will begin to swell almost immediately; many songbirds can fit in two or three clutches per season if conditions are good, and by the end of a summer with no nestlings the insects will start to be overwhelming. If the onset of failure is in fall or winter, the effects will be delayed a few more months, but keep in mind raptors will be increasing pressure on small birds as the rodents become impossibly scarce. Note also that northern winter is southern summer, so no matter when the failure begins, half the world will be feeling the effects almost immediately.

Also keep in mind that bats emerging from hibernation in the spring will do so without their young, which will be fewer mouths to feed on mosquitos, gnats, moths and beetles in the summertime--just when the failure of bird reproduction will be showing its worst effects. Even shrews will be missed, since they consume a great many insects and terrestrial arthropods; they're fast-living, another important food source for small mammals, snakes and raptors, and their populations will be wiped out by age and attrition within the first 3-4 months. That's another lost food source for mammalian and avian predators and another major check on insect populations removed.

Under the conditions you've set, the ripple effects will be fast and they will be severe. No way around it besides some epic hand-waving.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
It is supposed to be a little cryptic and hints towards my unique creation theory for the universe….

Well, you lost me with the creation theory. Much too abstruse for me, and it's divergent enough from typical game cosmology that I doubt if I can offer anything more.

[Honest Tiefling]

Palanan seems far more educated on the subject, but I agree that a year for reduced births to cause mayhem is a bit cautious. I think it would cause starvation and famine way before that.

The season would also greatly affect humanoid populations. Assuming that milk and livestock are important, a season of milk giving animals not giving birth and therefore no milk could be disastrous. With the lack of cheese and dairy, some populations might actually struggle to feed the few children born. Anyone dependent on such animals, such as smaller farmers are suddenly up crap creek without a paddle. So not only are fewer children being born, the ones that are born are probably not going to get much in the way of food causing the problem to get worse.

Factor in insane amounts of insects eating crops, and I think a year for the dead animals to hit the fan is a bit much. Without extra mouths for birds and bats to feed, they'll destroy what crops remain. Farming populations would probably turn to banditry or thievery quite quickly. There won't be vegetation to keep anyone company, it'll all be eaten by insects quite quickly.

I do have to wonder why the faction that blames the druids is presented as a horde of irrational idiots. It would be quite logical to blame the druids, because keeping the lands fertile and preventing hordes of bugs that black out the sun from appearing is their job. While people would be inclined to panic, I don't know if they'd immediately jump to the chaotic mob approach right away. I feel as if there needs to be more of a indication how normal people became such a chaotic force in a short time span and why they have no peaceful, scholarly, or lawful individuals.

Also, why WOULD the druids all work together? Unless I greatly misunderstand this setting, druids have no form of organization. I thought there was even a group who worshiped a very evil and murderous god? One would think that early on, those who don't understand the problem (or don't care) would quickly use this distraction to whack their rivals, further reducing the number of druids available to deal with anything.

I also wonder why every faction is centered around the end of the world. I mean, it does make some sense, but I think a lot of people would just plain give up and try to enjoy things, so the Embracers make sense. However, people's children and livelihood are dying. Wouldn't someone...Try to fix that in the short term? Try to protect their own country, race or family at the expense of others? I would assume that would be the largest faction, not people trying to figure stuff out.

And why not regenerate? If you have at least some clerics and druids, eat some elves. If your choices was starving to death and seeing everyone you cared about die slowly, I think a lot more people would give this idea a try. Just convince people to chop off limbs and regrow them for meat. Why would the undead be the only ones to do this in such a horrible situation?

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to eat the undead out of desperation.

[Eldonauran]

Palanan seems far more educated on the subject, but I agree that a year for reduced births to cause mayhem is a bit cautious. I think it would cause starvation and famine way before that.

The season would also greatly affect humanoid populations. Assuming that milk and livestock are important, a season of milk giving animals not giving birth and therefore no milk could be disastrous. With the lack of cheese and dairy, some populations might actually struggle to feed the few children born. Anyone dependent on such animals, such as smaller farmers are suddenly up crap creek without a paddle. So not only are fewer children being born, the ones that are born are probably not going to get much in the way of food causing the problem to get worse.

Factor in insane amounts of insects eating crops, and I think a year for the dead animals to hit the fan is a bit much. Without extra mouths for birds and bats to feed, they'll destroy what crops remain. Farming populations would probably turn to banditry or thievery quite quickly. There won't be vegetation to keep anyone company, it'll all be eaten by insects quite quickly.

Maybe the time table is a little off. I'll do a bit of hand waiving and say that the Gods have not totally abandoned the world (they haven't). They'll do what they can to keep the 'insect apocalypse' from being a total game-ender.


I do have to wonder why the faction that blames the druids is presented as a horde of irrational idiots. It would be quite logical to blame the druids, because keeping the lands fertile and preventing hordes of bugs that black out the sun from appearing is their job. While people would be inclined to panic, I don't know if they'd immediately jump to the chaotic mob approach right away. I feel as if there needs to be more of a indication how normal people became such a chaotic force in a short time span and why they have no peaceful, scholarly, or lawful individuals.

Maybe I was unclear in regards to the time period. After the initial collapse of the reproductive cycles, there are going to be years and decades of recovery, though never full recovery. When the adventure starts, the players will at least 16 years of age (if born at the possible moment before the onset) or older. The world has had some time to adapt to the situation. Population will have been drastically reduced and pockets of civilization will be separated by large areas of uninhabited areas. Lots of lost vegetation by insects but some areas that have resisted.

There are not wide spread mods of chaotic, raving lunatics but rather loosely organized pockets of 'Disbelievers' that have started to experience mental breakdowns from consumption of humanoid flesh and are seeking a scapegoat. Most of the population is just trying to survive at this point. I did not mention them as I was only highlight major factions that might be of importance to the players.


Also, why WOULD the druids all work together? Unless I greatly misunderstand this setting, druids have no form of organization. I thought there was even a group who worshiped a very evil and murderous god? One would think that early on, those who don't understand the problem (or don't care) would quickly use this distraction to whack their rivals, further reducing the number of druids available to deal with anything.

Some manner of forewarning, combined with necessity would account for overall cooperation between the druids. Remember that I mentioned initially that Good and Evil deities have pulled back their influence in the realm and things are shifting towards Law/Neutrality. Good and Evil deities are working TOGETHER in the background. This will have some effect on their followers as some of their high clergy will have limited information on what is going on. Not quite a cease-fire but close.


I also wonder why every faction is centered around the end of the world. I mean, it does make some sense, but I think a lot of people would just plain give up and try to enjoy things, so the Embracers make sense. However, people's children and livelihood are dying. Wouldn't someone...Try to fix that in the short term? Try to protect their own country, race or family at the expense of others? I would assume that would be the largest faction, not people trying to figure stuff out.

Yes, the largest faction is the unmentioned one. The populace as a whole is trying to survive. They've learned that there is safety in numbers. There are wild beast and other savage creatures (other humanoids too) that are a danger to the rest of them. They are together due to necessity if they want to keep surviving.


And why not regenerate? If you have at least some clerics and druids, eat some elves. If your choices was starving to death and seeing everyone you cared about die slowly, I think a lot more people would give this idea a try. Just convince people to chop off limbs and regrow them for meat. Why would the undead be the only ones to do this in such a horrible situation?

Oh, I only mentioned the Undead doing it in combination with kidnapping living people. I am quite sure others will use the methods on livestock or other sources of meat as well. As far as I know, there aren't any particular rules for stripping meat from the living creature. I'm sure shock, blood loss and a number of other issues will become apparent. Probably a DC Fort save to simply not die, which 5% of the time people will fail. Additionally, it is a 7th level spell (9th for druids) and will not be available often as required to feed anyone in a sustainable way.

Remember, this is a lot of brain storming at this point. I'm speaking in generalities and not in an all inclusive/exclusive manner.


Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to eat the undead out of desperation.

Now, THAT is a good one. Why let perfectly 'good' meat go to waste once the druids finish off some of the undead menace. It would explain why the undead still remain a problem.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe I was unclear in regards to the time period. After the initial collapse of the reproductive cycles, there are going to be years and decades of recovery, though never full recovery. When the adventure starts, the players will at least 16 years of age (if born at the possible moment before the onset) or older. The world has had some time to adapt to the situation. Population will have been drastically reduced and pockets of civilization will be separated by large areas of uninhabited areas. Lots of lost vegetation by insects but some areas that have resisted.

I think this is what confuses me. Unless your game has druids popping out of the woodwork, you're going to have issues with not enough druids. It's not so much recovery, as '90% of the world's population kicked the bucket'.


There are not wide spread mods of chaotic, raving lunatics but rather loosely organized pockets of 'Disbelievers' that have started to experience mental breakdowns from consumption of humanoid flesh and are seeking a scapegoat. Most of the population is just trying to survive at this point. I did not mention them as I was only highlight major factions that might be of importance to the players.

You know, there are populations that practice cannibalism and to my knowledge, do not undergo any mental problems because of it. I think the idea of having to murder innocent people to eat them because you lost your baby to starvation makes for a better explanation for a mental breakdown.


Some manner of forewarning, combined with necessity would account for overall cooperation between the druids. Remember that I mentioned initially that Good and Evil deities have pulled back their influence in the realm and things are shifting towards Law/Neutrality. Good and Evil deities are working TOGETHER in the background. This will have some effect on their followers as some of their high clergy will have limited information on what is going on. Not quite a cease-fire but close.

Uh...This one needs elaboration. I am having some problems believing that even with high level clerics pulling strings, no one is going to get ideas about stabbing their former bloodsworn enemies in the back when they are weakened or distracted. Or heck, trying to off each other because that's what needs to be done. Have a starving band of warriors you need to fight to preserve the world? Eat the goody-goody two shoes elf druid. It's not backstabbing, its the rule of the strong over the weak, you know, that nature you try to preserve?



As far as I know, there aren't any particular rules for stripping meat from the living creature. I'm sure shock, blood loss and a number of other issues will become apparent. Probably a DC Fort save to simply not die, which 5% of the time people will fail. Additionally, it is a 7th level spell (9th for druids) and will not be available often as required to feed anyone in a sustainable way.

Then how are the undead doing it? I would imagine that a large enough group of them would cause issues for the same reasons.

[Eldonauran]

I think this is what confuses me. Unless your game has druids popping out of the woodwork, you're going to have issues with not enough druids. It's not so much recovery, as '90% of the world's population kicked the bucket'.

There won't be enough druids to take care of the entire planet. Many will have had to band together in small pockets to survive. Druids are not any rarer than clerics and many clerics share similar access to nature magic as druids based on domains chosen.

And 90% of the world kicking the bucket is a realistic expectation of an end-of-the-world scenario. Especially if there is no birth rate to renew the population.


You know, there are populations that practice cannibalism and to my knowledge, do not undergo any mental problems because of it. I think the idea of having to murder innocent people to eat them because you lost your baby to starvation makes for a better explanation for a mental breakdown.

I know there are populations that practice cannibalism. What I am unaware of is any that practice it to the exclusion of any other form of dietary requirement. The 'Disbeliever' faction is so sure that Druids and their 'magic plant food' is behind the infertility that they are abstaining from the plant life and trying to burn it down. I'm sure the nutrients they are missing because of this are enough to account for their erratic behavior without getting into the dietary benefits/risks of eating humanoid flesh.


Uh...This one needs elaboration. I am having some problems believing that even with high level clerics pulling strings, no one is going to get ideas about stabbing their former bloodsworn enemies in the back when they are weakened or distracted. Or heck, trying to off each other because that's what needs to be done. Have a starving band of warriors you need to fight to preserve the world? Eat the goody-goody two shoes elf druid. It's not backstabbing, its the rule of the strong over the weak, you know, that nature you try to preserve?

Clergy in the higher ranks are serving to preserve the status quo, though I am sure what you describing can, and does, happen in a world reduced to this. I don't think it will be the main focus of the adventure though it will serve well as a plot hook or optional scenario to pursue for the players. I suspect most of the backstabbing and every-man-for-themselves action happens during the first few years or the first decade. It will have slow down a bit since then.


Then how are the undead doing it? I would imagine that a large enough group of them would cause issues for the same reasons.

"At the head of this group is a powerful caster". This particular entity is crafty, malicious and highly intelligent. It keeps the flesh craving members of its undead horde bordering on the verge of starvation (as close as undead can get, of course) while not caring about the damage it does to the living so long as they survive long enough for the harvest. It is willing to go far enough to strip every usable bit of flesh off the victim, every organ that is not necessary to preserve life for an hour (brain, heart, lungs), before casting regenerate and watching the victim writhe in pain for the 2d10 rounds it takes for it to recover. Then it begins again. The lucky ones lose consciousness early on. The ones that near death with be forcefully reincarnated until they no longer have the CON score to survive the process again. Then a new undead joins the horde. It's a high level witch, if you hadn't guessed.

Now, i could have left that up to the imagination but ... you asked.

[Honest Tiefling]

"At the head of this group is a powerful divine caster". This particular entity is crafty, malicious and highly intelligent. It keeps the flesh craving members of its undead horde bordering on the verge of starvation (as close as undead can get, of course) while not caring about the damage it does to the living so long as they survive long enough for the harvest. It is willing to go far enough to strip every usable bit of flesh off the victim, every organ that is not necessary to preserve life for an hour (brain, heart, lungs), before casting regenerate and watching the victim writhe in pain for the 2d10 rounds it takes for it to recover. Then it begins again. The lucky ones lose consciousness early on. The ones that near death with be forcefully reincarnated until they no longer have the CON score to survive the process again. Then a new undead joins the horde. It's a high level witch, if you hadn't guessed.

Now, i could have left that up to the imagination but ... you asked.

That doesn't really answer the question, actually. The problem is not the how, but the sheer number needed. After all, those people aren't going to last long without their own food supplies, and when they die, they become more undead. So how is the undead population more viable then the humanoid one? Or is the idea that the entity is simply that powerful?

[Eldonauran]

That doesn't really answer the question, actually. The problem is not the how, but the sheer number needed. After all, those people aren't going to last long without their own food supplies, and when they die, they become more undead. So how is the undead population more viable then the humanoid one? Or is the idea that the entity is simply that powerful?

Remember, these are just ideas that I am brainstorming about and I don't have all the details hammered out into a finished product. This is why I really appreciate the feedback. It gives me a chance to address the issue and come up with a plausible solution. By no means stop posting, you are helping immensely. If you'd like to offer some feedback on your ideas or solutions, all the better!

The Underground leader is powerful, in so much as a 17th+ level caster is powerful, though has to keep a low profile because of the other powerful casters nearby. It is logical most of the high level casters in the world are surviving at this point. As far as this caster is concerned, the undead are expendable and serve to mask her presence. It won't be hard to capture living people, brand them to tattoos that mimic the abilities of a ring of sustenance to keep them alive and slowly use them for food sources for the undead horde. All that is truly needed to keep this operation going is a steady supply of new bodies, skilled 'harvesters' for the flesh and the ability to cast spells to regenerate the used bodies.

I'm planning a coven of witches, with the leader being the 17th+ level caster, that use a combination of Rings of Sustenance (or their tattoo equivalent), healing hexes and the archetype gravewalker, to create and control the undead. If the undead start to become too great in number or attract too much attention, culling the group is encouraged but sending them out on a mission and using 3rd parties to alert the Druids and Church.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yes, please don't think I'm trying to wreck your ideas. I am just very used to players asking me the same sort of questions.

One question is that if the undead leader has tattoos that make it so people don't need to eat or drink, why the heck are they not spreading these!? I'd make the ritual do something beneficial to the undead horde (maybe undead can find them easily, or reduce saves against fear or negative energy) and distribute them. Your horde won't do any good if they don't have food, and you breed up a large stock of cattle to make sure your undead are taken care of. Maybe trade it to the scholar faction to get some insight on what they are doing...Or even to sway them away from the Nature Wardens. The intelligent undead could even be some of these witches, infiltrators seeking to turn the Scholars against the Nature Wardens so the undead horde can strengthen itself.

Through the question remains, what does this 17+ caster want? They could be manipulated by the entity itself?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Maybe I was unclear in regards to the time period. After the initial collapse of the reproductive cycles, there are going to be years and decades of recovery, though never full recovery.

This is new to me. There's nothing in the OP that discusses years or decades of partial recovery; the only time reference involves "two months into this," so it sounded as if the crisis was still unfolding.

And if the widespread reproductive failure proceeds as you've described, there will be no recovery. Without reproduction, tens of thousands of vertebrate species will die out, full stop. Given your initial conditions, I don't see how any recovery is possible. Those species will be dead and gone.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
I'll do a bit of hand waiving and say that the Gods have not totally abandoned the world (they haven't).

Well, this confuses me, because you mentioned earlier that the "overall plan" was to halt reproduction in all animal life. I'm still not sure why the higher powers are planning a mass extinction, nor how it would qualify as not having abandoned the world.

As best as I can make out, the higher powers are diverting spiritual energy from Golarion and feeding it into the First World, in an apparent effort to bring that realm to life. That sure sounds like they're abandoning the old world to me.


Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling
Unless I greatly misunderstand this setting, druids have no form of organization. I thought there was even a group who worshiped a very evil and murderous god?

You might be thinking of the worshippers of Malar in the Forgotten Realms, although I suppose there could be druids of Lamashtu in Golarion. (In fact, I think we've already run across them in our Runelords campaign--please no spoilers if so.)


Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling
Unless your game has druids popping out of the woodwork, you're going to have issues with not enough druids. It's not so much recovery, as '90% of the world's population kicked the bucket'.

Very much agreed. Druids are comparatively rare in any case, and after the massive collapse of the first few months (which I still maintain will be catastrophic) they'll be fewer still. Individual druids might be able to contain and safeguard small areas, but it's hard for me to see how druids will be able to work together on a continental scale, especially when undead and evil fey will be abroad in unprecedented numbers. Even if some druids had the inclination to cooperate, it may be practically impossible if there are vast areas of ruined landscape separating them.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Population will have been drastically reduced and pockets of civilization will be separated by large areas of uninhabited areas.

And after a decade, let's say, what will the people in these pockets of civilization have left to eat?

They may try farming, but without oxen or other farm animals this will be extremely labor-intensive, and there will be other complications as well. Humans evolved as omnivores; we're not designed for a purely vegetable diet, and there will be some serious nutritional deficiencies in store.

Honest Tiefling is also correct that the loss of dairy will be a substantial blow. Societies will be at a Neolithic level in terms of food production, literally scratching out a bare living from small fields--but without animals to work those fields, supplement their diet, provide milk and blood, or help guard and defend the settlements. A portion of the population will need to be on constant guard against raiders, so that's even fewer hands to work the fields.

And keep in mind that without animal dung for fertilizer, the soils will be exhausted all the more quickly--think of slash-and-burn agriculture in tropical rainforests, where the soils are depleted of nutrients in only a handful of years. That's feasible (if not sustainable) when the people are able to move to a new section of rainforest, clear and burn it and plant for another couple of years; but your pockets of civilization will most likely be fixed localities, fortified against attacks and with a very limited amount of land available to work. Once those plots within the fortified area are worn out, what will the people do?

They'll be facing a no-win situation: surrounded by desolate regions, long since stripped of food by roaming scavengers, and too dangerous for a small hungry group to cross, especially when they have no idea where in the world another safe, fertile place could be found. Even if they did know where a haven was, and could somehow survive the journey, more than likely it would be another fortified site on the edge of starvation and unwilling to let strangers inside.

I have a hard time seeing how anyone survives the first year of this, much less the next ten years. You've set up the world for an overwhelming fall.

.

[Honest Tiefling]

Okay, unsettling idea, but what if births just fail for humanoids...And for the lesser lifeforms, they...Well, they don't have souls. They kinda just...Pop out. They are only alive as long as the inert form can be kept alive. So the food is less of an issue, but it's still a huge sign saying that things have gone a bit awry.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling
Okay, unsettling idea, but what if births just fail for humanoids...And for the lesser lifeforms, they...Well, they don't have souls. They kinda just...Pop out. They are only alive as long as the inert form can be kept alive. So the food is less of an issue, but it's still a huge sign saying that things have gone a bit awry.

I was thinking along vaguely parallel lines, though more in terms of available soul-energy per lifeform.

Supposing that humanoids require far more soul-energy per embryo, or perhaps a higher-quality vintage, as it were, which is in correspondingly short supply. Humanoid births fail as the OP described, but there's a trickle-down effect, so creatures with less demanding souls are able to keep reproducing longer.

Thus humanoids and similar species (great apes, primates, elephants, cetaceans, etc.) would experience reproductive failure first, with the effects rippling down to less sophisticated souls, with carnivores and ungulates in a second tier of failure, followed in a cascading series by smaller and less demanding souls. This would mean that owls, raptors, weasels, sea lions and thousands of other upper-level predators would fail before their rodent or small aquatic prey, which would survive the longest owing to their far smaller demands from each individual mouse- or minnow-soul.

Songbirds would be somewhere in with the carnivores, but at least the entire catastrophe wouldn't start out with them, and between persistent rodents, songbirds and shrews the initial explosion of insects wouldn't be as overwhelming or disastrous, at least not during the first year or two. Most fish species would be fairly low-maintenance in terms of soul energy, so marine and freshwater ecosystems would be less damaged, again for the first phase of the failure.

This would at least give societies time to understand the basics of what was happening, and would allow havens and refuges to develop without the spectre of landscapes stripped to dead stems by blizzards of uncontrolled insects. A little different from the approach presented in the OP, but far more amenable to the overall plan the OP seems to be aiming for.

.

[Eldonauran]

This is new to me. There's nothing in the OP that discusses years or decades of partial recovery; the only time reference involves "two months into this," so it sounded as if the crisis was still unfolding.

And if the widespread reproductive failure proceeds as you've described, there will be no recovery. Without reproduction, tens of thousands of vertebrate species will die out, full stop. Given your initial conditions, I don't see how any recovery is possible. Those species will be dead and gone.

Misunderstanding. There can be no 'recovery' without reproduction, I know. I meant recovery of civilization to a certain degree. Apologies for not being clearer.


Well, this confuses me, because you mentioned earlier that the "overall plan" was to halt reproduction in all animal life. I'm still not sure why the higher powers are planning a mass extinction, nor how it would qualify as not having abandoned the world.

As best as I can make out, the higher powers are diverting spiritual energy from Golarion and feeding it into the First World, in an apparent effort to bring that realm to life. That sure sounds like they're abandoning the old world to me.

Halting reproduction isn't the plan, its just a side effect of doing so. No new souls can enter into Golarion without the soul energy filtered through the positive energy plane. This means that any attempts at reproduction fail shortly into gestation. You are right, of course. Most of the Gods have abandoned the old world, for all intents and purposes. The Neutral Gods are still present and have not abandoned anyone, and I'll hedge my bets that most of the Good Gods are not feeling terribly 'good' about what they are letting happen.

Perhaps something can be done to revitalize the old world once the current system is broken and the original entities are awakened. For now, it is a necessary sacrifice, at least in their eyes. Be assured that I am not saying the Gods are right. The ultimate determination of that is up to the players. I'm just setting the stage.

That gives me an idea, though... If one of the Scholars figures out a way to capture the souls of existing creatures and infuse them into the unborn, they could effectively shortcut the system. Thought will need to be given to the effects of an old soul (one that has not been 'processed' by the system) inhabiting a new body. Normally, new souls are blank slates. Imagine a child born with the memories intact from its previous life. Hmmm.....



Very much agreed. Druids are comparatively rare in any case, and after the massive collapse of the first few months (which I still maintain will be catastrophic) they'll be fewer still. Individual druids might be able to contain and safeguard small areas, but it's hard for me to see how druids will be able to work together on a continental scale, especially when undead and evil fey will be abroad in unprecedented numbers. Even if some druids had the inclination to cooperate, it may be practically impossible if there are vast areas of ruined landscape separating them.

They will have to cooperate and join forces. As unlikely as it sounds, they have the tools to do so. Transport Via Plants allows for teleportation without range limitations, so long as a living plant of both types is present in source and destination. The druid does not have to know the destination, only what direction and roughly how far, and you get placed as close as possible. Assuming Gozreh is the deity of choice for druids (usually is) and is present in the world (affirmative, Gozreh is the only deity to actually inhabit Golarion), then his temples should be safe zones to teleport to/from.

Something I just realized though, Gozreh will most likely NOT be involved with the other God's plans and be highly agitated by the events going on. I'd even hazard to say Gozreh will actually step in directly to prevent total collapse. Hmm... Definitely food for thought.


And after a decade, let's say, what will the people in these pockets of civilization have left to eat?

They may try farming, but without oxen or other farm animals this will be extremely labor-intensive, and there will be other complications as well. Humans evolved as omnivores; we're not designed for a purely vegetable diet, and there will be some serious nutritional deficiencies in store.

Speaking of food, the population will have to had switched to an all plant diet. There will be outliers that consumes humanoid meat and will be the official 'bad guys' of the campaign, at least at lower levels. Most likely there will be nutritional deficiencies and it will be a problem to be overcome. Suggestions are welcome. Farming will not be pleasant, true.


have a hard time seeing how anyone survives the first year of this, much less the next ten years. You've set up the world for an overwhelming fall.


It will be difficult, yes. It is meant to be so. Let's not forget the existence of magic in this scenario. There are other forces present that keeps the soil healthy and life-bearing that just our understanding of chemistry, biology and agricultural knowledge.

[Eldonauran]

I was thinking along vaguely parallel lines, though more in terms of available soul-energy per lifeform.

Supposing that humanoids require far more soul-energy per embryo, or perhaps a higher-quality vintage, as it were, which is in correspondingly short supply. Humanoid births fail as the OP described, but there's a trickle-down effect, so creatures with less demanding souls are able to keep reproducing longer.

Thus humanoids and similar species (great apes, primates, elephants, cetaceans, etc.) would experience reproductive failure first, with the effects rippling down to less sophisticated souls, with carnivores and ungulates in a second tier of failure, followed in a cascading series by smaller and less demanding souls. This would mean that owls, raptors, weasels, sea lions and thousands of other upper-level predators would fail before their rodent or small aquatic prey, which would survive the longest owing to their far smaller demands from each individual mouse- or minnow-soul.

Songbirds would be somewhere in with the carnivores, but at least the entire catastrophe wouldn't start out with them, and between persistent rodents, songbirds and shrews the initial explosion of insects wouldn't be as overwhelming or disastrous, at least not during the first year or two. Most fish species would be fairly low-maintenance in terms of soul energy, so marine and freshwater ecosystems would be less damaged, again for the first phase of the failure.

This would at least give societies time to understand the basics of what was happening, and would allow havens and refuges to develop without the spectre of landscapes stripped to dead stems by blizzards of uncontrolled insects. A little different from the approach presented in the OP, but far more amenable to the overall plan the OP seems to be aiming for.

.

Hmmm, that could definitely be applicable to the scenario. The concept is that the Gods are trying to disguise the event as the final souls have been born that Pharasma will eventually judge, hinting that the overall system is nearing the end of its purpose. I did not want to get into certain debates with my players about whether or not animals have 'souls', so I included all creatures that have self-awareness (so 1+ mental stats).

I think your ideas have serious merits.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I did not want to get into certain debates with my players about whether or not animals have 'souls', so I included all creatures that have self-awareness (so 1+ mental stats).

There's no debate to have. If a creature can be made into any form of incorporeal undead, it has a soul. That's what the incorporeal undead creature is; the disembodied and corrupted soul of the creature it came from. So far as I've ever been able to discern, every living creature with an intelligence score has a soul. If it lacks wisdom or charisma then it's not a creature at all. Now whether intelligent constructs have souls or not is questionable and the same goes for mindless undead, maybe but there's no question or debate to have with regards to any creature of the animal type, at least not if game rules mean anything to you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera
There's no debate to have…at least not if game rules mean anything to you.

Ease down a little. The OP is talking about a discussion with his players on the question of animal souls, which sounds to me like one of those far-ranging midnight philosophical debates…the sort that go far, far beyond game rules. No reason to cast aspersions on the OP's approach to the matter.




Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Halting reproduction isn't the plan, its just a side effect of doing so.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
…the overall plan is the elimination of reproductive capabilities of all animal life.

I don't mean to over-parse, but with these two quotes juxtaposed, you may see why I'm a little confused. You did say early on that halting all vertebrate reproduction was the overall plan.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
…I'll hedge my bets that most of the Good Gods are not feeling terribly 'good' about what they are letting happen.

I don't see how any entity which defines itself as being Good, capital G and all, could allow the extinction of tens of thousands of species on a world dependent upon higher powers for its survival. It's tantamount to a betrayal on a global scale.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Transport Via Plants allows for teleportation without range limitations, so long as a living plant of both types is present in source and destination. The druid does not have to know the destination, only what direction and roughly how far, and you get placed as close as possible.

Fair enough, but the question still remains how many higher-level druids are still around to make use of this spell, and whether they won't have more pressing needs for that sixth-level spell slot. I'm thinking Antilife Shell and Wall of Stone might be in more urgent demand.

Up to you, of course, but it really comes down to how many druids will be left in this world, and I have to agree with Honest Tiefling that "really not that many" is a good estimate. Blaming druids for the slow meltdown of global biomes is completely irrational and unfounded in fact, which means a whole lot of people will be doing it.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
If one of the Scholars figures out a way to capture the souls of existing creatures and infuse them into the unborn, they could effectively shortcut the system.

For individual cases, yes, but it's a long way from isolated exceptions to a complete circumvention of celestial plans. There would need to be some way to essentially industrialize the process, like bottles on a factory conveyor belt waiting for souls to be poured in.

I think this idea is worth developing, for its inherent creepiness and philosophical dimensions as well as the likelihood that this is exactly what sages would be thinking under these circumstances. It assumes that there will be enough reliable food to support an infant growing to adulthood, which in this scenario is a tremendous assumption, both in and out of character.

But if an infant can be raised to adulthood with an imprinted soul, then all manner of possibilities will have opened up, and you'll have created one of the greatest moral dilemmas of your new world. If your players like to roleplay philosophical quandaries, they'll have a field day with this one.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Speaking of food, the population will have to had switched to an all plant diet…. Most likely there will be nutritional deficiencies and it will be a problem to be overcome.

Something to keep in mind is that the young of many vertebrate species require a substantial amount of protein to grow and develop normally, even if those species later shift to a more herbivorous diet. I'm no expert on child nutrition, and I have a feeling most of your survivors in this setting won't be either, so that's an issue to keep track of.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Let's not forget the existence of magic in this scenario. There are other forces present that keeps the soil healthy and life-bearing tha[n] just our understanding of chemistry, biology and agricultural knowledge.

I haven't forgotten, and I was about to ask what the advanced magitech of this future era is doing for everyone.

You haven't said too much about this aspect of the setting, and two thousand years is a long time for magitechnologies to develop; but unless you have reliable air transport and some way to apply magical effects to large swathes of territory at once, I think the setting will still be limited by the short ranges and limited areas of most standard spells.

There are quite a few options in 3.5 which would help foster plant growth, and there's the magnificent cantrip from Dark Sun called Nurturing Growth, but I don't know the ins and outs of Pathfinder magic--nor whether you'll be bound by what, for your setting, is ancient lore. But even though a 400-foot radius is great for small-scale crops, it tends to pale when you have an area the size of Montana needing your help.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
Hmmm, that could definitely be applicable to the scenario.

And as a bonus, my Trickle-Down Soul TheoryTM means that for a few years at least, humans will be able to supplement their diet by farming guinea pigs.

But even if rodents outlive their predators by a few years, and the initial insect apocalypse doesn't happen, without predation pressure there will be a tremendous explosion in rodent populations, which will have its own extremely damaging effects. For the first couple of years there will be rodent swarms everywhere, attacking every last cache of foodstuffs they can find, and I'd hate to think what would happen to a person caught alone by a swarm of rats.

But the rodent populations will crash for want of food, after which I could see some wild population dynamics, as rodent and insect populations alternately peak and crash. Storms of mice and voles one year, blizzards of locusts and beetles the next.

.

[Eldonauran]

There's no debate to have. If a creature can be made into any form of incorporeal undead, it has a soul. That's what the incorporeal undead creature is; the disembodied and corrupted soul of the creature it came from. So far as I've ever been able to discern, every living creature with an intelligence score has a soul. If it lacks wisdom or charisma then it's not a creature at all. Now whether intelligent constructs have souls or not is questionable and the same goes for mindless undead, maybe but there's no question or debate to have with regards to any creature of the animal type, at least not if game rules mean anything to you.

Oh, don't worry. I'm in agreement with you on this even if my players might not share that opinion. I suppose if I had to narrow my focus to pinpoint precision, I would have to shift the focus to souls that are capable of moral choices. Animal souls (and other like them) do not get judged by Pharasma.

As for intelligent constructs/undead, anything that has sentience and is capable of moral choices would be considered to have a soul, as the entire point of my custom cosmology is to convert the power in the universe into usable energy. Undead contain the soul 'power' of the animated body (which is why it can't be resurrected until the undead is slain) and the soul can't be judged until this soul power is released. This is one of the reasons Pharasma hates the undead in particular, in my setting. It makes her job more difficult.

Addressing the intelligent/sentient constructs is a tad more complicated but I will try to simplify it. Anything outside the material realm has more of a direct tie to the mechanical side of the system. Outsiders exist to keep the system working, mostly focusing on the Outter Planes and the religious aspects of morality. Elementals do the same but are more focused on the physical aspects of the system on the material plane. As agents of the system, they are empowered by it (remember that Chaos is a different matter). They are not judged by Pharasma as they are outside of the system and their energy is returned after they are destroyed (body is the manifestation of the soul, which is just condensed energy).

I digressed a bit but back on subject... Constructs are mostly powered by binding an elemental spirit to an created body and serve as an animating force. I will treat them as I would an Outsider/Elemental except that they do have a body that can be destroyed and then the animating spirit is freed to return to whatever place it came from. I suppose that animating spirit would be somewhat of a 'free-willed' being at that point, until it was destroyed a second time without a body and its energy is returned to the system as would a true Outsider/Elemental.


I don't mean to over-parse, but with these two quotes juxtaposed, you may see why I'm a little confused. You did say early on that halting all vertebrate reproduction was the overall plan.

You are right. Apologies for the clarity issue. My goal was to determine the effects of halting all reproduction and after seeing your suggestions, I adapted. The goals of the Gods have always been the same even though I did not communicate them clearly early on.


I don't see how any entity which defines itself as being Good, capital G and all, could allow the extinction of tens of thousands of species on a world dependent upon higher powers for its survival. It's tantamount to a betrayal on a global scale.

It is betrayal, of a sort. They are rebelling against the entire system. 'Good' is just a label given by the original Outsider for a system that is serving to rob the universe of its energy. They still hold the same values and the loss of life is causing them great pains. They have realized that the current system will result in an ultimate loss of life for the entire universe and are seeking to right an ultimate wrong. They are making the best decision as they see it.


Fair enough, but the question still remains how many higher-level druids are still around to make use of this spell, and whether they won't have more pressing needs for that sixth-level spell slot. I'm thinking Antilife Shell and Wall of Stone might be in more urgent demand.

Up to you, of course, but it really comes down to how many druids will be left in this world, and I have to agree with Honest Tiefling that "really not that many" is a good estimate. Blaming druids for the slow meltdown of global biomes is completely irrational and unfounded in fact, which means a whole lot of people will be doing it.

I did look into Antilife Shell previously and, sadly, it doesn't have such a great range (10ft radius emanation on caster). Maybe modified versions of higher level might be viable to protect areas from vermin/rodents but as it is, that spell will only serve to protect a druid for brief periods of time.

The issue with the number of druids is actually related to and dependent on the timeline in my setting. With the rise in magic/technology and the blending of the two (mostly arcane), the power shift between civilization and nature has swung wildly towards civilization. In response to this, there has been an increase in druidic presence. I would even hazard to say that most large towns would have a druid nearby, if not two or more Urban druids in larger cities. But, I could be over estimating. Do we have actual numbers on druid presence in the Golarion setting?


For individual cases, yes, but it's a long way from isolated exceptions to a complete circumvention of celestial plans. There would need to be some way to essentially industrialize the process, like bottles on a factory conveyor belt waiting for souls to be poured in.

I think this idea is worth developing, for its inherent creepiness and philosophical dimensions as well as the likelihood that this is exactly what sages would be thinking under these circumstances. It assumes that there will be enough reliable food to support an infant growing to adulthood, which in this scenario is a tremendous assumption, both in and out of character.

But if an infant can be raised to adulthood with an imprinted soul, then all manner of possibilities will have opened up, and you'll have created one of the greatest moral dilemmas of your new world. If your players like to roleplay philosophical quandaries, they'll have a field day with this one.

Glad to hear you like the idea. I do want the players to have many different avenues in which to explore the setting. Moral dilemmas is definitely one that I enjoy and I know my players well enough that they will get some enjoyment out of untangling the moral implications. Not so much in actual game-play but it will keep their minds occupied during the week and engaged in the story.

I'm trying to decide if Gozreh will take an interest in this development. As a deity that calls Golarion its home, Gozreh probably has the most vested interest in keeping the sentient creatures around. Perhaps with Gozreh's influence, and the assistance of some other Neutral deities, they can institute some sort of 'reincarnation' mechanic. Pharasma might even get behind the idea (she does count Rebirth as part of her portfolio). This method would severely tax their resources though, as the system would no longer be getting an influx of soul energy, leading to a new loss of power for any divinely power being.


Something to keep in mind is that the young of many vertebrate species require a substantial amount of protein to grow and develop normally, even if those species later shift to a more herbivorous diet. I'm no expert on child nutrition, and I have a feeling most of your survivors in this setting won't be either, so that's an issue to keep track of.

Pathfinder doesn't go much into dietary requirements (it is a combat simulator, after all), so I will be relying on research in order to determine effects of this diet and source of protein. I assume I will have to default to the insect population for any/most sources of protein (other than other humanoids, of course). Although, this might not actually come into play depending on how the story evolves. I suppose the Scholars will be on the edge of developing a working theory and beginning experimentation when the story starts.


I haven't forgotten, and I was about to ask what the advanced magitech of this future era is doing for everyone.

You haven't said too much about this aspect of the setting, and two thousand years is a long time for magitechnologies to develop; but unless you have reliable air transport and some way to apply magical effects to large swathes of territory at once, I think the setting will still be limited by the short ranges and limited areas of most standard spells.

There is a lot of things to cover in that aspect actually. I'll limit it to highlights. I tend to want to explain every facet of how something works, so I'll spare you that unless you are really interested. Most of this is relevant to the period right before the souls run out.

Low level arcane magic is common. Assume anyone wealthy enough to be in the merchant class or higher has access to arcane magic from cantrips to 1st level spells a few times per day via a 'magi-tech' device. More wealth gets you access to higher spells, with 3rd levels being the maximum an non-adventuring, non-arcane caster can afford due to recharge mechanics. Certainly there are people that can afford more but ... highlights only.

There are most definitely airships and use a combination of lighter-than-air gases and a combination of sails/wind and magic propulsion. Most average 5 knots while some can reach peaks of 10 knots with a combination of wind and magic. There are some airships that run solely on magic and are quite fast.

Divine magic still pretty much serves the same purpose it has always. There are some divine spells that mimic the results of some arcane magic but healing, growth, restoration, resurrection and similar spells remain differentiated from technology. You can still weaponize divine magic in consumable item form but there is no magi-tech that allows casting of divine magic.


There are quite a few options in 3.5 which would help foster plant growth, and there's the magnificent cantrip from Dark Sun called Nurturing Growth, but I don't know the ins and outs of Pathfinder magic--nor whether you'll be bound by what, for your setting, is ancient lore. But even though a 400-foot radius is great for small-scale crops, it tends to pale when you have an area the size of Montana needing your help.

I'm not familiar with the spell. I've heard of Nurturing Seeds but it just makes 10 seeds hardy and able to transplant easily.


And as a bonus, my Trickle-Down Soul TheoryTM means that for a few years at least, humans will be able to supplement their diet by farming guinea pigs.

But even if rodents outlive their predators by a few years, and the initial insect apocalypse doesn't happen, without predation pressure there will be a tremendous explosion in rodent populations, which will have its own extremely damaging effects. For the first couple of years there will be rodent swarms everywhere, attacking every last cache of foodstuffs they can find, and I'd hate to think what would happen to a person caught alone by a swarm of rats.

But the rodent populations will crash for want of food, after which I could see some wild population dynamics, as rodent and insect populations alternately peak and crash. Storms of mice and voles one year, blizzards of locusts and beetles the next.


I've started thinking along the lines of clever spellcasters placing livestock into suspended animation just in case they find a solution for the issue. This will allow them to effectively prevent total extinction.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yanno, what if this started happening, but not everywhere at once? Areas more in tune with...Whatever, I don't really know what would be best, but something to tie it back to the plot are affected first. The players are either in affected areas, or dismiss rumors.

It also has the benefit of handing the players a super duper giant hint early on, that might become relevant and be connected to future information. Admittedly, this sort of thing can be hard to do in a campaign, but it can be quite rewarding (from my experience) if done right.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
I've heard of Nurturing Seeds but it just makes 10 seeds hardy and able to transplant easily.

Nurturing Seeds is indeed the correct name; I mistyped it earlier.

And it doesn't just make the seeds hardy--it guarantees germination for every seed. Considering that many natural seed crops only see a small percentage actually germinate, this is huge. 100% germination is an absolute dream. Given enough time, this one cantrip could reforest a continent--or help to feed survivors in the face of rodent plagues and locust swarms.