Class levels where they're not wanted.

[AtlasSniperman]

Hey playgrounders.
I have an interesting dilemma that I'm sure you will be as intrigued with as I am.

I would like to add class levels to a creature to replace and possibly overlap it's RHD. This creature is listed as "Advancement: 7-10HD(Large); 11-18HD(Huge)" which presents an issue to me.

Now, obviously I can just replace it's RHD with class levels like I want. But what I want to do is figure out what it's effective character level would be. Does anyone have any advice on how to adjucate the CR/ECL of a Nightmare without RHD and with Monk Levels?

No that's not a typo; a Nightmare Monk.

[DedWards]

No that's not a typo; a Nightmare Monk.

I only really play Pathfinder, so I doubt I'll be of any help, but I'm interested to see how this "Nightmare Monk" pans out.

[Taelas]

You want advice on how to make a Monk Nightmare.

A Monk. Nightmare.

You want to make a Monk HORSE.

My brain hurts.

Ooookay.

The easiest way to do it is to just use the Cohort LA. It is a bit off, but anything else would likely be worse.

[AtlasSniperman]

You want advice on how to make a Monk Nightmare.
This is correct.


A Monk. Nightmare.
It wasn't a typo.


You want to make a Monk HORSE.
Absolutely.


My brain hurts.
Come on, you can't say it doesn't sound cool!


Ooookay.
;)


The easiest way to do it is to just use the Cohort LA. It is a bit off, but anything else would likely be worse.
That's actually what I was thinking. It's what I'm writing it up assuming. Will post the "finished product" soon.

[Necroticplague]

You want advice on how to make a Monk Nightmare.

A Monk. Nightmare.

You want to make a Monk HORSE.

My brain hurts.

Ooookay.

Well, since monk improves speed, Nightmares can't really wield weapons (except for a Moutpick weapon), and their constant concealment helps them get close, it actually seems fairly reasonable.

[Novawurmson]

First question: What's your ideal CR for the finished product?

Second question: What are the minimum monk class features you want for this creature?

There are Pathfinder templates for applying the "feel" of a class to monsters. Take a look at the Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/monk-creature-cr-2-or-3) template.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The LA is tricky, because astral projection is a relatively powerful 9th-level spell, and you get an at-will (Su) version that can't be dispelled. Etherealness is less powerful, but still not the worst 9th-level spell. It's hard to estimate how powerful a limited selection of at-will high-level spells is. At level 20, not very, but at 10th level, these abilities will end dungeons ("everyone stand in a circle, here we go, ethereal through the castle walls, into the vault, take your time"). You (or whoever the DM is) can start putting dimensional lock spells all over the place, but that's a) an 8th-level spell and b) no fun for the nightmare player.

The rest of the abilities are pretty okay - ability score adjustments, large size (though not reach), three natural weapons with low-ish damage, 13 natural armour, permanent concealment in combat. With the right LA, a nice set of abilities for a natural attack-focused build.

@Necroticplague: I agree, monk makes sense, also because unarmed strikes are one weapon horses can use (and outsiders are proficient, o joy!). I was also thinking of totemist myself, for the natural attacks business.

[AtlasSniperman]

Dysingolet
Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
Nightmare Monk 11
Hit Dice: 11d8+44(96hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 70ft.(14 squares), fly 120ft.(perfect)
AC: 27(-1 size, +4 Dex, +13 natural, +2 Monk), touch 15, flat-footed 24
BAB/Grp: +8/+23
Attack: Hoof +14 melee (3d6+7 plus 1d4 fire)
Full Attack: 4 Hooves +14 melee (3d6+7 plus 1d4 fire) and bite +9 melee (3d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10ft./ 5ft.
Special Attacks: Flaming Hooves, Smoke, Greater Flurry of Blows, Unholy Strike
Special Qualities: Astral projection, Darkvision 60ft., Etherealness, Improved Evasion, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Natural Learning, Flurry of Hooves, Diamond Body
Saves: Fort +11, Refl +10, Wis +7
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills: Concentration +19, Diplomacy +16, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (The Planes) +18, Listen +15, Move Silently +19, Sense Motive +15, Spot +15, Survival +1(+3 on other planes and following tracks)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Run, Improved Flight, Ability Focus(Smoke), Deflect Arrows.
Environment: Gray Waste of Hades
Organization: Solitary
CR: 13
Treasure: None
Alignment: Lawful Evil
http://orig05.deviantart.net/3a48/f/2009/224/0/9/horse_on_fire_by_stephencrowe.jpg
Despite his general equine appearance, all who lay eyes on this magnificent stallion are of no doubt to his nature. Its mane and tail are tremendous flames, with fire further billowing from its hooves and nostrils. The air around this great creature shimmers with more heat than even the fires would suggest.

Millenia ago a powerful blackguard called forth for a new mount worthy of his strength. His desire reached deep into the farthest depths of Hades, and pulled this Great Nightmare Stallion from his rest. For reasons lost to time, the blackguard was judged unworthy, and was slain by his would be mount. This tradition, of calling for a mount from Hades only to be judged and slain by the great creature that answered, has persisted for generations. Now little more than the beasts name is known; Dysingolet.

Dysingolet can speak Common and Infernal. He considers himself a judge of the power and malice of blackguards. Very few mortals have ever been found worthy by him. Dysingolet is little more than a powerful and old Nightmare, arrogant and self-assured of his strength.



Dysingolet's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are considered evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, when he strikes good creature with a natural attack, his attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.

Flaming Hooves(Su): A blow from Dysingolet's hooves sets combustible materials alight and has been known to melt the armour upon the breast of many a Blackguard.
Smoke(Su): During the excitement of battle, Dysingolet exhales a potent mix of sulfur and pure hate. This snorting fills a 15-foot cone with a hot, smoke that chokes and blinds opponents. Anyone in the cone must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or take a -2 penalty on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving the cone. The cone lasts 1 round, and the nightmare uses it once as a free action during its turn each round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Because of the smoke he gives off, Dysingolet has concealment against creatures 5 feet away and total concealment against creatures 10 feet or farther away. The smoke does not obscure his vision at all.
Flurry of Blows: By using a full attack action, Dysingolet may strike 2 additional times at his highest attack bonus. With the exception of "Flurry of Hooves" below, this ability functions exactly as the Monk Flurry of Blows.


Astral Projection and Etherealness(Su): These abilities function just like the spells of the same names(caster level 20th); Dynsingolet can use either at will. Creating images of himself throughout the world, to terrify and threaten all who believe that possibly; they are worthy.
Improved Evasion: Dysingolet can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball), he instead takes no damage. In addition on a failed save he takes only half damage. If Dysingolet is helpless (such as one who is unconscious or paralysed) he does not gain the benefit of Improved evasion.
Still Mind: Dysingolet gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment, his iron will sees no purpose other than judging the worthy and killing the weak.
Purity of Body: Dysingolet is immune to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).
Natural Learning: Dysingolet treats his natural weapons as part of the progression of his unarmed strike damage. This ability replaces Slow Fall.
Flurry of Hooves: Dysingolet may perform a flurry of blows with his hooves, when he does so he gains an extra hoof attack at the same attack bonus. This ability applies only to his hooves and not his bite. This ability replaces Wholeness of Body.
Diamond Body: Dysingolet is immune to poisons of all kinds.

Deflect Arrows: Once per round, the sheer rippling heat from Dysingolet can disturb the path of any incoming ranged attack that would have otherwise hit him.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for Dysingolet is up to 700 pounds; a medium load, 701-1400 pounds; and a heavy load, 1401-2100 pounds.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Couple of points:
The monk speed increase doesn't affect fly speeds.
Unarmed damage increases don't work with natural weapons. The nightmare hits for 1d8 bite, 1d8 hoof, and 2d8 (large monk 11) unarmed strike.
Flurry of Blows doesn't work with natural weapons. Your full attack is not '4 hooves +14 (3d6+7 +1d4 fire) and bite +9 (3d6+3)', it is 'unarmed strike +14/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+7) and 2 hooves +9 (1d8+3 +1d4 fire) and bite +9 (1d8+3)'. More attacks, but less damage each.

I'm not sure where you got the +2 natural armour from, a buff spell or equipment?

I think you might be able to improve on Hover by replacing it with Improved Flight (RoTW), which improves your maneuverability by one step, to perfect.


Anyway, that's just RAW, it looks great now, I like the blackguard flavour, and Deflect Arrows is a nice touch.

[Necroticplague]

Couple of points:
The monk speed increase doesn't affect fly speeds. Actually, it does. it improves all speeds, not just land speed.

[ShurikVch]

Are you fond of astral projection and other (Su)?
Because, if not, then Petitioner (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners) template can cut down to 2 HD

(Also, Dragon #335 have Chaos Monk, so no need to be Lawful)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, it does. it improves all speeds, not just land speed.
I was under the impression that 'speed' refers only to base (land) speed, and that all other speeds must be specified, as in 'fly speed' and 'swim speed'. If that's not the case, then sure, the monk boost applies to all speeds.

[Necroticplague]

I was under the impression that 'speed' refers only to base (land) speed, and that all other speeds must be specified, as in 'fly speed' and 'swim speed'. If that's not the case, then sure, the monk boost applies to all speeds.

Nope. Contrast the Monk and the Barbarian's Fast movement. Or look to the definition of speed.

The number of feet a creature can move when taking a move action. Monk increases that by however much. It is irrelevant whether this move action is taken by flying, burrowing, or swimming, or running.

[Flickerdart]

If you want to make a quick and dirty CR adjustment, we can assume that the 2:1 return on Outsider HD holds true in reverse too. That means the Nightmare loses 3 CR when its 6 Outsider HD are stripped, and gains 1 CR for each Monk level added. A Nightmare with 6 Monk levels instead of 6 Outsider HD would hypothetically be a CR 8 creature. It should rightfully keep its +4 LA.

Of course, the CRs for monster advancement are even more nonsense than CR is usually.

[AtlasSniperman]

Couple of points:
1)The monk speed increase doesn't affect fly speeds.
2)Unarmed damage increases don't work with natural weapons. The nightmare hits for 1d8 bite, 1d8 hoof, and 2d8 (large monk 11) unarmed strike.
3)Flurry of Blows doesn't work with natural weapons. Your full attack is not '4 hooves +14 (3d6+7 +1d4 fire) and bite +9 (3d6+3)', it is 'unarmed strike +14/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+7) and 2 hooves +9 (1d8+3 +1d4 fire) and bite +9 (1d8+3)'. More attacks, but less damage each.

4)I'm not sure where you got the +2 natural armour from, a buff spell or equipment?

5)I think you might be able to improve on Hover by replacing it with Improved Flight (RoTW), which improves your maneuverability by one step, to perfect.


6)Anyway, that's just RAW, it looks great now, I like the blackguard flavour, and Deflect Arrows is a nice touch.

1) I think this point has been addressed :)
2) I didn't realise this, but I'm so attached to the idea that I've just thrown in a swap of Slow fall for that, as Slow Fall is really of no use to a monk who can fly and they wouldn't train for such a thing.
3) I can't really see a horse using much else than a tackle if you eliminate it's natural weapons. So again I homebrew swap Wholeness of Body out for that.
4) For a moment I did a test of having him be Huge for getting 11 HD from Monk, then I decided that that wouldn't be a good idea and reversed most of the changes. Thanks for spotting that.
5) That is actually a perfect idea. Swapped, thank you.
6) Thanks, Creatures bend the rules in a lot of places. Thanks to your comment I've swapped out abilities for more reasonable ones for his character concept.


I quite enjoyed making this guy and am thinking of making a thread where I just dump creatures with class levels that shouldn't have them. It'd be over in "Homebrew Desgin" but if you guys think it'd be cool to see, let me know.

[Rubik]

How about adding levels of psion and the Tashalatora feat? Since psion is a "nonassociated" class, the CR goes up by one every two HD, rather than one-for-one as with monk, but you still get most of the best monk goodies. You'll gain skill points and HD-based feats faster, you gain the equivalent of full BAB, and you gain all the benefits of being a psion, as well, at a two-for-one ratio. And it basically means you're a faster progression monk, as well.

Cheap, but it's how the rules work.

If you want the monk speed, grab horseshoes of speed (stack onto a pair of horseshoes of the zephyr for more fun) and a horned helm with the rapid wrath enhancement on the horns. That adds +30' to your speed AND multiplies the resulting total by four. That's way more than a monk gets until really high levels, and monk speed doesn't stack with the horseshoes of speed anyway.

[AtlasSniperman]

How about adding levels of psion and the Tashalatora feat? Since psion is a "nonassociated" class, the CR goes up by one every two HD, rather than one-for-one as with monk, but you still get most of the best monk goodies. You'll gain skill points and HD-based feats faster, you gain the equivalent of full BAB, and you gain all the benefits of being a psion, as well, at a two-for-one ratio. And it basically means you're a faster progression monk, as well.

Cheap, but it's how the rules work.

If you want the monk speed, grab horseshoes of speed (stack onto a pair of horseshoes of the zephyr for more fun) and a horned helm with the rapid wrath enhancement on the horns. That adds +30' to your speed AND multiplies the resulting total by four. That's way more than a monk gets until really high levels, and monk speed doesn't stack with the horseshoes of speed anyway.

In this case it was less about getting the Monk Abilities and more about whether the CLASS would work well. I feel it does.

[Rubik]

In this case it was less about getting the Monk Abilities and more about whether the CLASS would work well. I feel it does.All you need is one or two levels to get all the relevant abilities, unless you're going with ACFs. Everything else can be purchased for fairly insignificant amounts of gold. Rings of feather falling and speed boosters are pretty cheap.

But sure. Rainbow Dash is a black belt, after all.

And then there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFjEintbDXc

[Necroticplague]

Isn't there a really cool monk ACF that lets you turn invisible once every 3 or 4 rounds? Invisible Fist, or something? Kinda redundant with the full concealment, but still might be handy.

[AtlasSniperman]

The character presented in this thread has been moved to to a [P.E.A.C.H] topic over in Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?452935-Wait-That-s-not-right-P-E-A-C-H). Any further commentary on this character please view that thread.

The thread will also contain other similar characters to this that I hope you will also enjoy.