arcane trickster superiority?

[sophontteks]

my group has 2 rogues, which im cool with. rogues are lots of fun and all. the problem is one will be an arcane trickster and i just dont see what advantage the other archtypes have over the trickster. I dont want to see one rogue outshine the other, but the trickster can pretty much do everything the other guys can with magic.

for example, thief subtype gets a bonus action to do thiefy stuff. ok. the trickster can do the same thing with mage hand, except he can do it at range.

The other archtypes just seem to pick up mundane utility, while the trickster gets spells. spells do it all and then some. is this it? is the trickster the master rogue subclass?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Well, I'm not much of an optimiser, but Assassin 3 seems like a no-brainer for any build that aims to do lots of damage in a short space of time.

[Citan]

Hi!

I didn't play other archetypes extensively, so what I'm gonna say is a summary of what I read on threads and my own theorycrafting thoughts...

With that said

- AT seems much better because you have many more abilities to choose from, but you have a fairly limited slots pool to play with, especially at lower levels. The other archetype are much more straightforward, but there benefits are nonetheless as good, just differently.

- Assassin is often chosen for its 3rd level ability. It requires a fair bit of preparation but can heap huge amounts of damage, the best of any archetype by far. Its other abilities help enabling the required conditions for surprise attack.

- Swashbuckler is very strong for any Rogue who like to be on front lines, bringing bonus initiative and the same benefit as Mobile (no AoO from enemy you attacked), effectively freeing the need to use Cunning Action to disengage (instead you can attack if TWF or Dash). Its later levels is very good in enemy management, being similar to the Paladin's Compelled Duel, but without concentration.

- Thief may seem lackluster compared to that, because using the first abilities (climbing movement, using objects) requires more planning, and the "free magic object use" is campaign dependent. However, it gets interesting benefits in combat, namely advantage on Stealth (>> easier advantage) and at the end 2 turns when starting encounter.

If you are DMing them, just try to propose situations where Thief will be the natural choice to resolve the problem. Also, the AT may help by choosing spells giving him an edge in another field than Thief (namely, focusing on illusion spells instead of buff/movement spells for the low levels).
Finally both could make great achievements with some teamwork (like, AT creating an illusion to distract guards while Thief sneaks in a fortress).

Good luck :]

[sophontteks]

Yeah, I see absolutely nothing good in the thief subtype. The trickster trumps every skill the thief gets and then some. Absolutely unimpressive.

The Assassin could be good though. I have a fair share of questions on its mechanics though.

First, Our arcane trickster has charlatan. This grants him several of the assassins unique abilities out the gate. Assassin gets proficiency with a disguise kit at level 3? Ok, the charlatan has that at level 1. 25 gp false identity at level....9? Yeah charlatan has that at level 1. Imposter at level 13? Charlatan forge documents proficiency at level 1.

So in a practical campaign (we will never reach level 17, for sure.) The assassin has 1 ability over the charlatan, granted its a good one, but is it good enough to compete with an array of spells? Surprise is only valid on the first round of combat right? The enemy is surprised if the rogue succeeds on their sneak check vs their perception. Bam they go first, and the first attack is a crit.

the assassin also gets a poisoners kit, but he is the only subtype of the three that can't apply the bonus as an action. The thief is allowed to use item as a bonus action, and the mage hand can manipulate objects as a bonus action as well. How does the assassin use the kit without wasting an entire action before combat which he needs for his surprise attack?

[Mara]

Mage hand has a verbal component to cast. You can avoid creatures noticing the mage hand, but most things could hear you casting. The hand last for a minute but you can work around that.

You can't cast mage hand with a bonus action, you can only use it.

The Use Object action is more inclusive than what you can do with mage hand.

AT is nice, but it doesn't invalidate the thief. The thief gets action economy which is equivalent to the spells ATs gain.

[sophontteks]

Swashbuckler is also good. Jeeze, ignore AOO, nice. Swashbuckler looks really good. I didn't see it because its not in the core handbook.

I helped my friend with the AT concept, and I was nothing short of impressed with its power.

Mage hand- he can pick locks, disarm traps, pick pockets, and distract enemies as a bonus action at range. Holy freaking crap that is strong. No concentration, and all of that can be done as a bonus action. unlimited uses Nice.

Minor illusion / predesignation- unlimited use of minor illusions which could cover traps, create false cover, manipulate enemies with distant sounds of combat.

Find familiar- at 3rd level he can take up find familiar. That's ridiculously awesome for the 'assists' alone. Not to mention the risk-free scouting. Though I don't think he can cast it as a ritual so it costs him a spell, but still this is strong all on its own.

Sleep- no save, still strong enough between 3-5 to put things completely out of the fight. I rule auto crit on sleeping critters.

Silent image- because giving a rogue minor illusion wasn't ridiculous enough, now he can make bigger illusions that move.

It just gets crazier from there. Magical ambush gives enemies disadvantage on saves vs. spells at 9th.
mirror image, invisibility, and suggestion at level 7.
Hypnotic pattern, and fear at 13

Woof.

[sophontteks]

Mage hand has a verbal component to cast. You can avoid creatures noticing the mage hand, but most things could hear you casting. The hand last for a minute but you can work around that.

You can't cast mage hand with a bonus action, you can only use it.

The Use Object action is more inclusive than what you can do with mage hand.

AT is nice, but it doesn't invalidate the thief. The thief gets action economy which is equivalent to the spells ATs gain.

I think your right with use object, though its borderline meta what with the AT being able to disarm traps and pick locks with it. I missed the 1 minute limit on the casting, that changes things. I imagine he can whisper the verbal component, so I could have him role stealth in certain situations. Any situation where there is ambient noise probably won't require any roll unless the creature is actively listening or has exceptional hearing.

with assassin would applying poison be similiar? She can apply poison from stealth without a role unless the situation is exceptional?

[Joe the Rat]

Got a wizard in the party? The Arcane Trickster archetype is superfluous. Hell, Wizard's better, since he can change his spell load-out every day as opposed to every level or so. Except for that one trick he has, which is very situational. How often do you need to open a lock from 10 feet away?

Yes, there's lots of overlap, and the fact that he's coming in with proficiencies that an Assassin will get (by the way, which proficiencies does the non-AT have from background? The AT doesn't have those... possibly ever.) makes it seem pointless. So it's up to the other rogue player to decide where he wants to shine. Assassin is a murder monster. Stealth and surprise lead to one-shot kills at the open. And poison proficiency. Damage is good, but I love poisoned status poisons. If he goes this way, you can really open up some chemical options. Thief is explorer par excellence - get anywhere, any time. Plus the whole "kill with one hand, bandage with the other" schtick.

What you really want to see out of two rogues is a synergy. The AT could pick spells to do everything the other guy could (a couple times a day), or he could pick spells to do things the other guy can't do, or pick spells to make the other guy better at his job. Duplication is a handy thing as well. Two people with a disguise kit proficiency can aid one another, or get the whole party done faster. Oh, and the Assassin gets the voice mimicry. Two fake identities in the party lets both go incognito... and the Assassin build new ones faster.

What it comes down to is talking to your players and encouraging them to work together to make their characters unique and complimentary.

[sophontteks]

How often do you need to open a lock from 10 feet away?

I would say 100% of the time. With the number of traps and surprise encounters a character can avoid this way, I imagine the mage hand will come out for nearly every situation it can be used for.

I like your ideas though. I think she would like the assassin best, and I think the two can mesh well with this combination.

[Mara]

I think your right with use object, though its borderline meta what with the AT being able to disarm traps and pick locks with it. I missed the 1 minute limit on the casting, that changes things. I imagine he can whisper the verbal component, so I could have him role stealth in certain situations. Any situation where there is ambient noise probably won't require any roll unless the creature is actively listening or has exceptional hearing.

with assassin would applying poison be similiar? She can apply poison from stealth without a role unless the situation is exceptional?

I wouldn't say assassin was similar. She doesn't need a roll while you have to determine how loud verbal components are.

You need a poison kit to make poisons not use them. So while an assassin can make them, a thief can apply them with a bonus Use Object action.

[sophontteks]

btw, thanks for the second opinions guys. it really helps.

I snuck in an aweful plot hook where the assassin rogue is actually a hired agent being paid to relay out ATs whereabouts to her boss. Ill make him regret picking "i crossed someone i shouldnt have" in his background options.

[Tiber]

Got a wizard in the party? The Arcane Trickster archetype is superfluous. Hell, Wizard's better, since he can change his spell load-out every day as opposed to every level or so. Except for that one trick he has, which is very situational. How often do you need to open a lock from 10 feet away?

A wizard and an Arcane Trickster do completely different things. Wizards will likely be using magic for versatility and ranged spells. Arcane Tricksters do their damage using Sneak Attacks, and use their spells for things like illusions and disabling enemies. It doesn't step on a wizard's toes at all if an A.T. is using hold person to take an enemy out of the fight, especially since concentration limits what a single caster can do.

Another thing I would note is that you can load up an A.T. with spells like shield, blur, mirror image, etc. to build a very hard to kill rogue.

[Joe the Rat]

A wizard and an Arcane Trickster do completely different things. Wizards will likely be using magic for versatility and ranged spells. Arcane Tricksters do their damage using Sneak Attacks, and use their spells for things like illusions and disabling enemies. It doesn't step on a wizard's toes at all if an A.T. is using hold person to take an enemy out of the fight, especially since concentration limits what a single caster can do.

Another thing I would note is that you can load up an A.T. with spells like shield, blur, mirror image, etc. to build a very hard to kill rogue.

Exactly. The Wizard - particularly one focused on illusion or enchantment - does most of what an AT can have in their toolbox. That doesn't make AT superfluous because they will use them in different ways, or combine to cover more ground.

[sophontteks]

heh, our party also has a wizard illusionist. i too dont see the overlap here. same spells? maybe, but to an entirely different purpose.

The AT is worth much more then the value of his individual powers. The synergy of even basic cantrips combined with rogue abilities can be incredibly powerful. Giving enemies disadvantage on saves using level 1-3 wizard spells? Thats far from a cheap parlor trick.

[DivisibleByZero]

You might be interested to hear what our table does with Rogues (and fighters and rangers, since they're in the same posts).

From a thread on multiple subclasses for the same class:

If a player wants two subclasses for the same class, the two easiest ways I see to do it would be:
1) Retrofit that subclass onto a different class chassis. Then they'd multiclass for real, but with a homebrewed/retrofitted subclass for the second class.
2) Substitute ASIs for subclass features. Then they'd basically take the subclass features instead of an ASI or a Feat.


I like the second idea. It could still be quite powerful regardless of how they end up taking it, but #2 is an excellent idea.
That's actually exactly what I do for a few subclasses already.
I've made some tweaks to some of the classes, and that was one of them.
In our game, Battlemaster Fighters can forgo their first ASI to gain the Champion subclass, thereby becoming a Battle Champion.
Assassin Rogues can do the same for Thief, thereby becoming Thief Assassins.
Both EKs and ATs also gain access to a third school of their choosing with which they can learn spells, in addition to the two listed.

On a related note, at our table the Beastmaster subclass has been rolled into the Ranger base class, but it has been changed somewhat. All Rangers are Hunters, and all have access to the Beastmaster abilities as well. Rangers now must cast Animal Friendship to gain a companion (the HD of the companion depends on the level of the spell used to summon it), at which point they can use the BM abilities. If the beast companion dies, it must be summoned again via another spell slot.


How do you find the balance? I am thinking about doing the same thing with fighter and ranger when I run 5e, and would be curious to know your experiences.
I honestly don't think it impacts balance much at all.

Consider for the fighter:
At lvl3, BMfighter gets his manuevers and now crits on 19. It impacts, sure, but not much.
At lvl7, their abilities are mostly fluff anyway, with hardly any impact at all.
At lvl10, all they get is an extra +1 damage per maneuver used and a 2nd style. Not all that impactful.
At lvl15, when init is rolled, if they have no SupDice, then they get one. And they crit on 18 now. That's pretty big, but let's face it, most games don't go that long, and if you do go that far then by the time you get there it really isn't game breaking.
Consider for the rogue:
At lvl3, assassinate and fast hands are both great, but assassinate isn't a given and takes some setup, so it's situational. People on boards love to comment on hoe great it is, but I find it much less reliable than they'd have you believe.
At lvl9, you become even better with a skill that you're probably amazing at already (so who really cares?), and you get great out of combat, (probably) long term disguises. It's cool, but it's nothing that you couldn't pull off with decent rolls anyway, so it's basically just fluff.
At lvl13, I find the same is true for assassins yet again, where the perk is really nothing that you couldn't already pull off with good rolls, so really all you get is UMD (which is admittedly awesome).
At lvl17, you get two turns during round one. This usually has basically zero impact, because on your first turn you got sneak attack/assassinate off already and so this basically just means you can put out the damage that you could have at level 3 with no setup needed.
On EKs and ATs:
Because both of those classes have caster type subclasses, those two subclasses each got a third school of their choice to learn spells from to balance the fact that their counterpart subclasses each got stronger. This had the added effect of allowing for more customization and differentiation between EKs and ATs (so that they all weren't the same anymore).
I also allow ATs to sneak attack with any Wizard cantrip that has a ranged attack roll, but if they want to apply sneak attack to the roll then it is always cast as if they were a 1st level caster (it doesn't scale). So they have to choose, do they want to cast it as normal with scaling, or as a 1st level caster without it scaling and apply sneak attack? It adds flavor without adding power.
Wizard only to preempt potential Eldritch Blast shenanigans (with multiple attack rolls), and ranged only to preempt potential shocking grasp shenanigans (with prohibiting reactions).
For ranger:
I'll just copy/paste from my houserules text:

- Ranger -
–- The Beast Master Archetype is being rolled into the Ranger base class. The Ranger's "companion" for the day would be the target of a modified Animal Friendship spell, called Summon Animal Companion (the companion is hereby referred to as the Ranger's Beast Friend), which would need to be renewed each day, and the BM features only apply if the Ranger has a Beast Friend.
–- The Summon Animal Companion spell is only available to Rangers, and all Rangers learn this spell automatically. A Ranger can only have one companion at a time. When first cast, or when a companion needs to be replaced, the DM tells you which beasts are in the area for you to befriend at the time, so he has some control over which beasts are available, to keep abuse to a minimum. Basically, companions need DM approval.
–- The CR of a Ranger's Beast Friend is set by the spell level used to befriend the companion beast.
---- 1st level slot = companion max CR 1/8 or lower
---- 2nd level slot = CR 1/4 or lower
---- 3rd = CR 1/2 or lower
---- 4th = CR 1 or lower
----- 5th = CR 2 or lower
*note: This means that All Rangers are both Hunters and Beast Masters, but the Beast Master abilities are only usable if the Ranger sacrifices one (or more, if the beast dies) spell slots each day to gain a Beast Friend.
These changes have been working just fine as far as our table is concerned.
Incidentally, I have made slight changes to some of the other classes as well, but these are the only ones that have multiple subclass options straightaway.

I originally granted the Open Hand to Monks in exchange for their first ASI because I felt that too many of their abilities were so base to the class that they should have been a part of the base class to begin with. But in that case I found that it actually did have an impact on balance, so I removed that tweak and it is now standalone just as it is in the PHB.

[sophontteks]

yeah that was an interesting read.
i agree with what they said on assassin. the suprise round is a one shot situational. sure it is a lot of damage, but it may not even hit and the player can only do it once.

I can not believe that this one situational ability makes up for a list of mediocre skills the assassin gets afterwards.

meanwhile the AT will eventually get to cast suggestion on the suprise round, giving them disadvantage on the save, potentially taking out 2 characters from the fight for a full round.
Sure the assassin gets more damage, but if it didnt die then the trickster wins since he gave the whole team advantage and he prevented 2 potential sources of damage.

that is just a singular instance of the ATs araenal, vs. pretty much the assassins entire bag of trick.

swashbuckler is much more competitive straight up.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I still think you're overrating the power and versatility of the AT's spellcasting.

I'm currently playing a 4th-level AT on these fora (Kamaria in my sig), and that party also has a Cleric/Wizard and a Bard who between them can cast any spell I could (both have Minor Illusion and Suggestion already, the Bard has Disguise Self and Silent Image; the Wizard has Fog Cloud and Invisibility). I'm not complaining at all - their offense can't compete with my Sneak Attack (though any Rogue gets that) and Mage Hand Legerdemain is awesome, but the actual AT spell slots are looking very* situational and very limited in number.

*I mean, Silent Image is not a situational spell, but I won't have to use it often due to one ally having it as well, not to mention two of them having Minor Illusion.

[Estrillian]

I have simply assumed that the Assassin's false identities are something well beyond what anyone else can achieve even with a Disguise Kit or some rolls. When an Assassin creates an identity it somehow has weight in the world. People have heard of them, strangers recognise them, NPCs turn out to be old acquaintances. An Assassin's identity, even if the player just created it, is something that the character has been laying the ground for for much longer. It's like those spy books where the agent has a drawer full of false papers and can just slot into somewhere.

So for example my player's Assassin in Lost Mines is basically a Redbrand. Other Redbrands know him, they recognise him, and some of them even take orders from him, even though all he did IC was pick up a red cloak and throw it on.

[sophontteks]

I still think you're overrating the power and versatility of the AT's spellcasting.

I'm currently playing a 4th-level AT on these fora (Kamaria in my sig), and that party also has a Cleric/Wizard and a Bard who between them can cast any spell I could (both have Minor Illusion and Suggestion already, the Bard has Disguise Self and Silent Image; the Wizard has Fog Cloud and Invisibility). I'm not complaining at all - their offense can't compete with my Sneak Attack (though any Rogue gets that) and Mage Hand Legerdemain is awesome, but the actual AT spell slots are looking very* situational and very limited in number.

*I mean, Silent Image is not a situational spell, but I won't have to use it often due to one ally having it as well, not to mention two of them having Minor Illusion.

I think that's affirming that these are all very strong spells, which is why everyone in your team took them. Definately no room to complain when your cherry picking these on top of being a rogue.


I have simply assumed that the Assassin's false identities are something well beyond what anyone else can achieve even with a Disguise Kit or some rolls. When an Assassin creates an identity it somehow has weight in the world. People have heard of them, strangers recognise them, NPCs turn out to be old acquaintances. An Assassin's identity, even if the player just created it, is something that the character has been laying the ground for for much longer. It's like those spy books where the agent has a drawer full of false papers and can just slot into somewhere.

So for example my player's Assassin in Lost Mines is basically a Redbrand. Other Redbrands know him, they recognise him, and some of them even take orders from him, even though all he did IC was pick up a red cloak and throw it on.

Yeah I agree but there is so much overlap, and its already situational. It'll maybe come up once in a campaign, and even then a rogue with the background and the kit can pull this off just as well in most cases. There is a ton of overlap with the background option. Both provide complete false identities, but with the assassin if you wait a week you can make another.

[ruy343]

Huh, we had a different mix a while back: our party consisted of three people: two rogues and a wizard. We were squishy.

Rogue number 1 took the assassin archetype, which allowed him to get some insane damage on occasion, and everyone was happy.
Rogue number 2 took the thief archetype, which allowed him to do all kinds of crazy/interesting things in combat. Specifically, "Use an object" as a bonus action is amazing. For example, want to set up a tripwire, drink a potion (or feed one to a fallen comrade), or pick a lock during the heat of combat as a bonus action? The thief is your man. Ours also liked to climb (at his full speed) and snipe from afar or chop down the chandelier onto the enemies, or climb towers to leap onto airships, use his running jump bonus, to crash them into the ground (it was an interesting campaign). Everyone was happy.

Assassin is a good choice for the simple man's rogue, one that deals a lot of damage and knows how to lie. There's nothing wrong with that. However, the thief is the guy who has class abilities that encourage creativity, with mundane means, in combat (and improved sneakiness at level 9!).

Now, the chief complaint that you've got here is that the mage hand legerdemain is able to do a lot of these things, and that spells should mitigate those thief abilities. However, here's what the rules say you get for that ability:


You can make mage hand invisible
You can perform the following additional tasks with it:
- -You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature
- -You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature
- -You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range
You can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.


This makes you a great pickpocket and also good at picking locks from range. However, it's important to remember that:

Arcane tricksters can only learn spells of the Enchantment or Illusion schools (transmutation would be needed to do the kinds of things a thief can do)
Mage hand legerdemain does not allow you to "use an object" (like drinking a potion or trying a knot) in the same way as the thief archetype
Mage hand requires the use of your bonus action (due to legerdemain), so if you're using the hand, you aren't using the cunning action for combat (which is key for a rogue's survival)
If you're ever more than 30 feet from the hand, it disappears instantly, requiring an action to regain
Casting mage hand requires a verbal component as mentioned before
Arcane tricksters get spell slots very slowly; thief abilities are always on.


Assassins are talked about enough that I don't need to dive into their abilities. Just think of them as a Jason Bourne, who can observe someone else and "chameleon" themselves to act like them. Plus super backstabs.

Just my $0.02

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think that's affirming that these are all very strong spells, which is why everyone in your team took them. Definately no room to complain when your cherry picking these on top of being a rogue.

You've missed my entire point. I'm not cherry-picking - those are my only options.


Assassins are talked about enough that I don't need to dive into their abilities. Just think of them as a Jason Bourne, who can observe someone else and "chameleon" themselves to act like them.

You know, I think the OP is giving too much license to Charlatans. Background features are very minor things with zero mechanical clout. The Charlatan, by my reading, has one alter-ego, which existed before the start of the campaign and ties them into a plot hook. That's it. They can't gain any gamist benefit from that. The Assassin's 9th-level feature, on the other hand, is a tool for solving problems and achieving game objectives.

You can forget about the tool proficiencies in your mental reckoning; everyone gets them. If the Thief isn't a Charlatan, they must be something else.

[sophontteks]

That was a great write up ruy343. What an amazing write up for the thief's strengths.

Just to nitpick a little, the arcane trickster is not limited to only illusion and enchantment. He does get one spell per spell level from any focus. They are super tough choices. I think find familiar is super strong, but I think my friend is going to take feather fall so he can jump out of windows or jump off bridges just for kicks.

I totally get your mage hand break down, but I also have a problem where mage hand can't 'use objects' like tie knots. It can only disarm traps and pick locks. That rule is so meta. How can I possibly tell a player who just used his mage hand to disarm a DC 20 trap without penalty that tying his shoes is beyond his ability with that spell. :smallconfused:

I don't think the limited spell slots are a big issue. A lot of it is in the cantrips early on. Lots of creative ways to get advantage on stuff with cantrips. Suppose their value varies greatly depending on the situation.

[sophontteks]

You've missed my entire point. I'm not cherry-picking - those are my only options.



You know, I think the OP is giving too much license to Charlatans. Background features are very minor things with zero mechanical clout. The Charlatan, by my reading, has one alter-ego, which existed before the start of the campaign and ties them into a plot hook. That's it. They can't gain any gamist benefit from that. The Assassin's 9th-level feature, on the other hand, is a tool for solving problems and achieving game objectives.

You can forget about the tool proficiencies in your mental reckoning; everyone gets them. If the Thief isn't a Charlatan, they must be something else.
They were your only options, but, they had full selection and still picked and use those spells. That's a sign of a strong spell, not a weak spell.

The background vs. assassin thing can go either way. They wrote it pretty extensively, Charlatins have a full alternate identity that can withstand scrutiny. As it states, so it will be. If he wants to use his false identity its fully a part of his character. Anything beyond this is individual interpretation of the rules.

[ruy343]

That was a great write up ruy343. What an amazing write up for the thief's strengths.

Just to nitpick a little, the arcane trickster is not limited to only illusion and enchantment. He does get one spell per spell level from any focus. They are super tough choices. I think find familiar is super strong, but I think my friend is going to take feather fall so he can jump out of windows or jump off bridges just for kicks.

I totally get your mage hand break down, but I also have a problem where mage hand can't 'use objects' like tie knots. It can only disarm traps and pick locks. That rule is so meta. How can I possibly tell a player who just used his mage hand to disarm a DC 20 trap without penalty that tying his shoes is beyond his ability with that spell. :smallconfused:

I don't think the limited spell slots are a big issue. A lot of it is in the cantrips early on. Lots of creative ways to get advantage on stuff with cantrips. Suppose their value varies greatly depending on the situation.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! It's good to know that my work means something to someone. Besides, the Thief definitely doesn't get the love it deserves because it's not an archetype that's all about DPR.

As for the lack of ability to use objects with mage hand, while you can do other things; I don't understand it either. I honestly have no explanation other than the fact that the designers explicitly stated that the "use an object" action is not available. It's probably done that way for balance, because the ability to use an object for a bonus action instead of an action is really, really good. You might get a lenient DM who allows you to do that, and that's the DM's prerogative.

Maybe the mage hand can pick locks by actually reaching inside the lock to turn the chambers or perform some other arcane effect? Maybe we should think of it as a lower-level version of the knock spell that's unique to the trickster and requires knowledge of how locks work to affect them or something. And maybe you can't to the shoe tying thing because it's just one hand, not two...? I wish I knew...

And good catch on learning spells from other schools; I had forgotten about that (and I was away from my book). And it's also helpful to remember that your cantrips can come from any school, not just enchantment or illusion, opening up a few more options as a trickster.

EDIT: Also, about charlatans vs. Assassins, remember that a charlatan's ability is a one-time thing: if your cover is blown, it's over. As assassin spends 25 gp, observes a target for a while and can immediately become that person for all intents and purposes (EDIT: and they can switch between them at will!), forcing others to use an insight check with disadvantage to detect them. It's true that it's a situational ability, but you can come up with creative uses for it, just like with any other ability (including Tongue of Sun and Moon from the Monk... long story...)

[Coffee_Dragon]

Specifically, "Use an object" as a bonus action is amazing. For example, [...] drink a potion (or feed one to a fallen comrade)

Note that using magical items (including potions) with Fast Hands is explicitly disallowed by the rules (though far more reasonable than the bizarre use of healing kits or lockpicks while involved in close combat).

[ruy343]

Note that using magical items (including potions) with Fast Hands is explicitly disallowed by the rules (though far more reasonable than the bizarre use of healing kits or lockpicks while involved in close combat).

That's a good point; healing potions weren't considered magic items in the Player's Handbook, and we were playing this campaign before the DMG came out... I would still allow a player to do it, but that's a good point.

[sophontteks]

Yeah it was helpful. Everything everyone is saying is helpful. I want to have a really intimate understanding of what the rogue archtypes can and can't do, so I can give my two rogue players a good experience. I'm really excited for both of them.

The assassins big caveat is that the process takes 7 days. I'm not saying its weak as a player, I'm saying its weak as a DM. I can't see this ever being put to use in my campaigns save for a very rare circumstance that I haven't caught yet. It may be because I'm playing these long pre-made campaigns, but 7 days. Normally there are some limits to time which would prevent this.

I admit if it ever did come to use it would be epic.

I guess this is the second time class vs. background managed to tick me off. The first time was when I was checking out the bard. I was upset that there was nothing involving the use of performance. Turns out all the RP element of being a bard is in a background available to everyone.
So, if bards don't pick performer they can't play music to get free rent? they aren't entertainers by default because they are freaking bards? Yeah, I don't get it.

My favourite background, by far, is noble variant background. I had to DMPC my first game since we didn't have enough players. The rest of the group just loved messing with my paladin's entourage. I gave them all names and a backstory, most were cliche's from popular titles like monty python the holy grail (the minstrel and the servant). Our rogue enjoyed encouraging the minstrel to sing more mocking songs about the paladin. They constantly tried to get my servant killed with various subtle actions. Its a great RP element and they are kinda upset that I won't continue playing a character as a DM.

Backgrounds are what the player makes of them I guess. If a player works with their background, and cultivates it as they play, they can end up being very strong. If they are just used as a hook and forgotton (or abused) their power will fade and disappear.

[Ardantis]

I think Thieves are designed to be underestimated. A veteran grognard is more likely to value the Fast Hands and Second Story Work abilities. Not that I'm a veteran myself, but they seem like they would be.

AT seems very Moar Spells to me, and Assassin is Moar Damage.

[Malifice]

my group has 2 rogues, which im cool with. rogues are lots of fun and all. the problem is one will be an arcane trickster and i just dont see what advantage the other archtypes have over the trickster. I dont want to see one rogue outshine the other, but the trickster can pretty much do everything the other guys can with magic.

for example, thief subtype gets a bonus action to do thiefy stuff. ok. the trickster can do the same thing with mage hand, except he can do it at range.

The other archtypes just seem to pick up mundane utility, while the trickster gets spells. spells do it all and then some. is this it? is the trickster the master rogue subclass?

How many encounters does your party get in between rests?

[sophontteks]

How many encounters does your party get in between rests?
We are halfway through the starter kit to get everyone started, then straight to out of the abyss.

[Malifice]

We are halfway through the starter kit to get everyone started, then straight to out of the abyss.

No, how many encounters are you getting between long rests.

As in, number.

[sophontteks]

That's going to vary, a lot. I can't even give a ballpark answer. I'm sure in many areas there will be a lot.

[Malifice]

That's going to vary, a lot. I can't even give a ballpark answer. I'm sure in many areas there will be a lot.

In adventuring days [the time between long rests] of around 7 encounters, the non-warlock spellcasting classes balance with the non spellcasters. For shorter adventuring days [less encounters between long rests] the spell casters [aside from the Warlock] get the advantage. For longer days, the non-spellcasters get the advantage.

The Rogue archetypes balance at the 7 encounter between long rest mark.

[Mara]

That's going to vary, a lot. I can't even give a ballpark answer. I'm sure in many areas there will be a lot.Some people here overweigh the importance of number of encounters per day to class balance.

[Malifice]

Some people here overweigh the importance of number of encounters per day to class balance.

Some people dont understand the importance of the number of encounters per day towards class balance, provide less that 7, and then spend ages complaining that the classes arent balanced.

[Mara]

Some people dont understand the importance of the number of encounters per day towards class balance, provide less that 7, and then spend ages complaining that the classes arent balanced.
Some of us don't houserule Nerf mundanes until the encounter number becomes all that stands between mundanes and compete irrelevancy.

[djreynolds]

my group has 2 rogues, which im cool with. rogues are lots of fun and all. the problem is one will be an arcane trickster and i just dont see what advantage the other archtypes have over the trickster. I dont want to see one rogue outshine the other, but the trickster can pretty much do everything the other guys can with magic.

for example, thief subtype gets a bonus action to do thiefy stuff. ok. the trickster can do the same thing with mage hand, except he can do it at range.

The other archtypes just seem to pick up mundane utility, while the trickster gets spells. spells do it all and then some. is this it? is the trickster the master rogue subclass?

Tricksters have spells and sneak attack. Invisibility and mirror image are that good. I have used my AT to even tank. But spells have limits per rest. I find assassin to be very situational, in regards to the assassinate class feature. I like the thief, but he is a more martial type.

Do your rogue's plan to multiclass? Because they have no 2nd attack, it can really be at any level. Rogue and fighter go so well together as does ranger or monk. There is nothing wrong with it, in fact, IMHO, that is a strength of the rogue. And arcane trickster would do well to pick up wizard levels. It is so easy.

I always as a DM, try to incorporate stuff where my players can shine individually. The easiest way is to enforce a good rest schedule that is fair and seems appropriate in the game itself, not abstract. This will aid in allowing a thief to shine. For assassins I create spots where perhaps they could infiltrate that the guardhouse and take out an important officer or at least hurt him before a battle. I thoroughly enjoy cutting off party members. Fast hands for a thief is cool and nothing wrong with incorporating the entire party's skill set in looking for items and material to create smoke bombs and such that he can use. The druid has to find this plant, the wizard has to mix it, etc.

But rest is a fair way to enforce resource management and allow players to have to lean on a thief to scout because they need conserve spells. Its not "the"way, but a way to allow others to shine who could be overshadowed by a wizard's utility. Healing kits are great, and a thief can play medic.

[Malifice]

Some of us don't houserule Nerf mundanes until the encounter number becomes all that stands between mundanes and compete irrelevancy.

Cut it out. There is no house rule involved in setting a higher DC for swimming in 55lb plate mail rather than in bathers. You're just sulking now and bringing arguments from other threads into this one.

And adress the point. Casters are balanced with non casters around the 6-8 encounters a day mark. If you disagree, let's have that discussion.

[Mara]

Casters are balanced with non casters around the 6-8 encounters a day mark. If you disagree, let's have that discussion.

I do disagree, but in your games I would agree.

The design intent does not require fixed encounters per day to balance classes.

All classes suffer from long rest limited HD and HP. All classes run out of resources at the same time. If mundanes can't do anything then more conservative magic-does-everything casting is required for the mundanes not to feel useless in the most important aspect of the game; everything but combat.

[djreynolds]

If you want a high magic setting, than go for it. But the rules are designed to incorporate both kinds of characters. You can have low magic setting as well. But for balance sake, this is what it is. Not everyone wishes to play a wizard, but the rest system creates balance or can shift it more favorably in one direction. High magic is cool, but the enemies will have this as well. Plenty of people farming with mundane tools and talking mundanely to each other. Any character can roll a high charisma or choose it. Social skills are there to be chosen. I assume people with really high social skills are extremely persuasive. Soldier's socialize with each other. Goblins intimidate each other. A paladin can take the urchin background.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

All classes suffer from long rest limited HD and HP. All classes run out of resources at the same time.

That's pretty much wrong, though, even inside Caster classes, given the existence of the Warlock. Spells are a different resource than hp, perhaps, but they're operating at different rates. And spells can act as as a supplemental pool of hp for that matter.

Different classes definitely benefit more or less from different numbers of encounters between long (and short) rests and it seems odd to argue otherwise.

This discussion might be a bit off-topic for a thread about rogues, though.

[sophontteks]

I'm pretty sure my friend will be taking find familiar at level 3. Its a permanent spell unless his familiar dies, so number of slots isn't a big concern. He wants some sort of primate like a spider monkey. I imagine he can get advantage on certain athletics checks, slight of hand, and disarming certain traps. The monkey can use objects, even run objects to people mid combat "my monkey jumps off my shoulder with a potion of healing and hops onto Sir. fighter guy, dropping it onto his hand with its tail." He could get advantage on the occasional attack if he's desperate enough to risk the monkey. "The monkey leaps off of the rogues arm onto the monster's face, dropping the creatures guard."

I think that's pretty awesome. As long as the monkey stays out of harm's way, it won't even hog a spell slot. I'm confident as a DM that I can ensure the monkey sees its fair share of epic death scenes though.

[djreynolds]

Poisoned dates, like in Indiana Jones.

[sophontteks]

Poisoned dates, like in Indiana Jones.
Yes, I will see this done. Absolutely. This must happen.

His first monkey will not live through the day.

[sophontteks]

I was running some ideas for our other thief. She likes the pirate idea with swashbuckler and the variant sailor background. I was gonna give her a small pistol for flavor. I was checking out some other cool ideas and saw the charger feat. So a swashbuckler rogue wood elf can dash a total of 70 feet, and make an attack anywhere in-between at +5 damage all without provoking AoO?

Does that sound awesome or what?

[Fwiffo86]

In case no one addressed this issue:

Pick locks with cunning action. Essentially no time wasted. Almost like picking it between attacks. (not subject to limited resources or anti-magic tactics)

Supreme Sneak: Adv on a skill with expertise (most likely) is like a built in +10 to the check, or a standard roll if moving at a normal pace. Not subject to anti-magic, dispells, etc. In most ways, I view this as vastly superior to invisibility.

UMD: Its UMD. Which means any wand/rod/scroll/item found becomes part of the burglars arsenal. Potentially giving them a far wider range of abilities than the AT.

It was mentioned 17th will not be reached most likely, but if it is, a second turn on the first round of combat equals to Sneak Attacks.

[DivisibleByZero]

I was checking out some other cool ideas and saw the charger feat. So a swashbuckler rogue wood elf can dash a total of 70 feet, and make an attack anywhere in-between at +5 damage all without provoking AoO?

Does that sound awesome or what?

Not really.

Charger is all but wasted on a Rogue. Let's look at this a bit, shall we?

Charger
- When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature. ((OK, great, but Rogues already get this at second level, and theirs is better because the Dash uses a bonus action which leaves their full action open for whatever they want))
- If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the damage roll (if you make an attack), or you push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you shove and succeed). ((OK, well the second portion of this already exists, albeit with only a 5' shove, without requiring any movement. So the first portion is all they're getting.))

So a Rogue that takes Charger is basically spending an ASI to get a +5 damage bonus in one very narrow circumstance, and they aren't getting ANYTHING else from this feat at all.
On any other class, sure, take Charger. On a Rogue, if you take Charger you're basically wasting an ASI.
Just my opinion, of course. Yours may vary.

[sophontteks]

Ah yeah, I forgot dash was a part of their bonus action. That's even better! The swashbuckler wood elf can move 70 feet and make a single attack anywhere during that 70 foot movement without provoking AoO. Freaking awesome!

Thanks for clarifying on that BTW.

EDIT: Wait, if its a bonus action dash, then she can move 70 feet and make two attacks with two-hand fighting. Oh man, the awesome gets awesomer. Combine that with an initiave bonus and getting free sneak attack against a solitary target. sick!

[Malifice]

That's pretty much wrong, though, even inside Caster classes, given the existence of the Warlock. Spells are a different resource than hp, perhaps, but they're operating at different rates. And spells can act as as a supplemental pool of hp for that matter.

Different classes definitely benefit more or less from different numbers of encounters between long (and short) rests and it seems odd to argue otherwise.

This discussion might be a bit off-topic for a thread about rogues, though.

It's inportant to the discussion about balancing the arcane trickster (long rest dependent) with the other rogue classes though.

Rogues are unique in that they have no short or long rest resources. Even champion fighters get a big boost from more short rests, and are balanced around getting 2 a day (action surge and second wind).

The arcane trickster gets spell slots which are expected to last them 7ish encounters between long rests.

If they're OP next to a thief or assassin, throw more encounters at the party between long rests. Once those slots are expended, they're rogues without the goodies of assassin or thief

[DivisibleByZero]

Ah yeah, I forgot dash was a part of their bonus action. That's even better! The swashbuckler wood elf can move 70 feet and make a single attack anywhere during that 70 foot movement without provoking AoO. Freaking awesome!

Thanks for clarifying on that BTW.

EDIT: Wait, if its a bonus action dash, then she can move 70 feet and make two attacks with two-hand fighting. Oh man, the awesome gets awesomer. Combine that with an initiave bonus and getting free sneak attack against a solitary target. sick!

On point 2 (your edit):
The second attack from TWF can't be made, as it uses your bonus action, which is unavailable because you already used it to Dash.
On point 1: Unfortunately not. Once again, they used their bonus action to Dash. Disengage is the one that prevents OAs. But they could take Mobile (instead of Charger) to prevent the OA from the target of their attack (but not from others). Or they could just use Disengage (instead of Dash or TWF) and prevent all OAs, but only get to move their speed.

Basically, Cunning Action is ridiculous. It's so good that in conjunction with their Sneak Attack damage, that these two combines was the reason that Rogues lost the Extra Attack feature that they originally had (at 8th level) in the Playtest.
So now Rogues are excellent characters to use TWF for, but the fat that they need to choose between TWFing and using Cunning Action is a balancing factor.

[sophontteks]

On point 2 (your edit):
The second attack from TWF can't be made, as it uses your bonus action, which is unavailable because you already used it to Dash.
On point 1: Unfortunately not. Once again, they used their bonus action to Dash. Disengage is the one that prevents OAs. But they could take Mobile (instead of Charger) to prevent the OA from the target of their attack (but not from others). Or they could just use Disengage (instead of Dash or TWF) and prevent all OAs, but only get to move their speed.

Oh yeah, TWEF is bonus action too.

Point one does work though by virtue of the swashbuckler subtype. If she attacks a target, that target can't provoke AOO. She can run 50 feet at a target, hit the target, get sneak attack bonus, and continue another 30 feet afterwards with no AOO.

Its still pretty awesome IMO.:smallcool:

[DivisibleByZero]

Oh, yeah. I forgot we were talking about a Swashbuckler.
Our table doesn't allow that subclass. It's WAY OP in our minds. We were hoping that the SCAG version wouldn't be broken like the UA version is.

[sophontteks]

Yeah its pretty good, but I think its going to come out about even with the trickster. Its about the right balance of power I'm striving for. I think she would be disappointed with the other archetypes compared to the trickster. I can see the thief being great in the hands of a good player, but I don't think newer players are going to find a buff to climb speed and an expanded bonus action anything worth writing home about. The assassins single trick will get boring fast.

I know what you mean about OP content though. I read the Minotaur, holy freaking OP like crazy.

[ruy343]

Oh, yeah. I forgot we were talking about a Swashbuckler.
Our table doesn't allow that subclass. It's WAY OP in our minds. We were hoping that the SCAG version wouldn't be broken like the UA version is.

You could still take the mobile feat and keep that ability to hit and run: it makes you a very tough rogue to kill, since you never have to stay on the frontlines.

[MeeposFire]

Thief lost a lot when the designers learned that you could use magic items as a bonus action and took action by adding in a note in the DMG to stop it.

Personally I don't think it was needed and it really hurt the sub class.

[sophontteks]

Yeah I'll allow thieves to use magic items as a bonus action.

So we're getting together tonight to get started. The player behind the second rogue is new to the game. I want to make sure she has a good time as much as I can help it. Thanks to you guys I have a few suggestions I can make to help her get into it. My favorite is the swashbuckler pirate, but I have some cool themes with the assassin and the thief.

I don't wanna tell her how to play her character, but I think giving players a few good ideas can really help get them started, and get into their character.

Hopefully it all goes well thanks again :D

[Malifice]

Yeah I'll allow thieves to use magic items as a bonus action.

So we're getting together tonight to get started. The player behind the second rogue is new to the game. I want to make sure she has a good time as much as I can help it. Thanks to you guys I have a few suggestions I can make to help her get into it. My favorite is the swashbuckler pirate, but I have some cool themes with the assassin and the thief.

I don't wanna tell her how to play her character, but I think giving players a few good ideas can really help get them started, and get into their character.

Hopefully it all goes well thanks again :D

Dont allow a long rest until the've had 7ish encounters.

Thats the best way to even it out mate.

[Mara]

Dont allow a long rest until the've had 7ish encounters.

Thats the best way to even it out mate.

Why would that balance anything when the AT abilities being focused on are at-will powers?

The spells you do grab as an AT you probably won't even use in combat and even if you do that is a round of not sneak attacking.

[Malifice]

Why would that balance anything when the AT abilities being focused on are at-will powers?

The spells you do grab as an AT you probably won't even use in combat and even if you do that is a round of not sneak attacking.

But with a longer adventuring day, you'll have to stretch your spells out longer, and the other Rogue classes will have more opportunities to spam at will and circumstantial abilities (rakish audacity, fast hands and assasinate). In among those combats there will be traps to deal with, environmental and social challenges that will also deplete spell slots.

An arcane trickster that is allowed to pop a spell at will is very different to one that is out of spell slots.

A longer adventuring day makes him ration them and makes it more of a choice when he casts one. It keeps the long rest classes (and he becomes a partial long rest class on taking the archetype) on par with the short rest and at will classes.

[Mara]

But with a longer adventuring day, you'll have to stretch your spells out longer, and the other Rogue classes will have more opportunities to spam at will and circumstantial abilities (rakish audacity, fast hands and assasinate). In among those combats there will be traps to deal with, environmental and social challenges that will also deplete spell slots.

An arcane trickster that is allowed to pop a spell at will is very different to one that is out of spell slots.

A longer adventuring day makes him ration them and makes it more of a choice when he casts one. It keeps the long rest classes (and he becomes a partial long rest class on taking the archetype) on par with the short rest and at will classes.
If you've been paying attention to OP, the slot spells are just gravy on top of cantrips and at-will class features.

Thief benefits are increased action economy.

Assassins makes poisons and has good surprise rounds.

AT's have greater utility even without slot spells.

Encounter numbers just do not effect the balance here.

[Malifice]

If you've been paying attention to OP, the slot spells are just gravy on top of cantrips and at-will class features.

Thief benefits are increased action economy.

Assassins makes poisons and have good surprise rounds.

AT's have greater utility even without slot spells.

Encounter numbers just do not effect the balance here.

What's the ATs at will that is significantly better than Rogue, Swash or Thief at will at the same level?

[Mara]

What's the ATs at will that is significantly better than Rogue, Swash or Thief at will at the same level?

None. I didn't say that they were.

[Malifice]

None. I didn't say that they were.

Ok - what at wills does the OP consider OP compared to the other archetypes?

[Mara]

Ok - what at wills does the OP consider OP compared to the other archetypes?

The thread is like two pages dude.

I said, "AT's have greater utility even without slot spells. ". I feel like that is what you actually want to talk about.

[Ardantis]

Not to throw a wrench in the dispute here, but I personally prefer the Thief and Swashbuckler for the following reasons:

1- They have well-defined party roles

2- They are Single Ability Dependent

Actually, so is the Mastermind, although his ability is Int.

Anyways, my point is that, most Arcane Tricksters need Int (most, not all) and Dex to fulfill the large amount of possible roles that they may fill or half-fill. Also, with their limited spell selection and spell slots, they need to choose in advance which roles to fill.

Assassins need Cha to fuel most of their subclass abilities unless you only dip. Throw in an extremely powerful combat ability (Assassinate) and unless they plan to only kill enemies in the surprise round (social campaign), they're gonna need Dex and some Con, too.

Thieves take the whole "action man" idea behind mundanes in this edition (Cunning Action, Action Surge, additional ASIs) to the extreme. Purely Dex-focused, they get subclass abilities which enhance things they'd already be expected to be doing- jumping, climbing, sneaking, doing additional things in combat. They're very straightforward on the surface, but with lots and lots of room to find mundane utility. And the way 5e is written, finding mundane utility is the quest of mundane classes- bolstered by a (for now) bounded magic system which isn't stepping on their toes (with the encounter system).

Swashbucklers are the same simplicity of Thieves, but applied solely to combat. They can Sneak Attack more easily, they can Disengage for free against their targets, they have better reasons to TWF than any other class. Sure, they need some Con, but their sole offensive and defensive prime stat is Dex. And they are for COMBAT, as surely as a Monk is for combat.

I don't have enough information on Masterminds to make a judgement.

Oh, well. That's just my 2 cents.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The swUAshbuckler should never be used for reference; it's mechanically unbalanced and thematically wonky. In my opinion a rogue subclass should never take away the rogue's reliance on either subtlety or support to be a damage engine. Just walking up to enemies and hitting them for huge amounts of damage should be the domain of the barbarian, fighter, even the skald more than the rogue.

[Malifice]

The swUAshbuckler should never be used for reference; it's mechanically unbalanced and thematically wonky. In my opinion a rogue subclass should never take away the rogue's reliance on either subtlety or support to be a damage engine. Just walking up to enemies and hitting them for huge amounts of damage should be the domain of the barbarian, fighter, even the skald more than the rogue.

Swashbucklers don't do huge amounts of damage. In comparison to other classes.

[sophontteks]

Right so, to settle this OP thing. The AT is OP in my campaign, but probably not every campaign, and definitely not with every player. The guy behind the AT really cares about useful tools outside combat, and so do I for that matter. So, I mean a lot of people are gonna say that things like minor illusion and predestination are weak, because they don't contribute much to combat (without stretching it). For us, we see infinite possibilities for manipulating NPCs and avoiding encounters entirely.

The AT has this list of spells which really don't have any numbers behind them at all. Their power is up to the players and the DM. I am willing to improvise interesting situations, and the players are really good at making these situations up as they go.

Regarding the MAD,
Intelligence isn't really important. A half-elf doesn't have many issues making room for 14 int. The remaining disadvantage caused by the lower score is mitigated by magic ambush. The score may not be as high, but he gets to roll twice. That should be all an AT needs for his occasional save spells.

[Mara]

I been thinking about a high elf sage AT. Maxing int after Dex combos well with the party brain role.

[sophontteks]

just throw in that you guys did a great job defending the thief subclass. I thought it was worthless. Now I think its a pretty good pick.

[Ardantis]

just throw in that you guys did a great job defending the thief subclass. I thought it was worthless. Now I think its a pretty good pick.

Thank you!

[bid]

I been thinking about a high elf sage AT. Maxing int after Dex combos well with the party brain role.
That adds hold person, hypnotic pattern and suggestion to your possibilities. Did you see anything else worthwhile or something other than a Wis save?

[Ardantis]

The swUAshbuckler should never be used for reference; it's mechanically unbalanced and thematically wonky. In my opinion a rogue subclass should never take away the rogue's reliance on either subtlety or support to be a damage engine. Just walking up to enemies and hitting them for huge amounts of damage should be the domain of the barbarian, fighter, even the skald more than the rogue.

I've gotta agree with Malifice- Swashbucklers don't do a huge amount of damage.

They are more likely to land Sneak Attack because they can TWF and still be mobile in combat. They also have slightly less restrictive requirements for their SA, making them more tactically flexible. Their SA doesn't do more damage than the other subclasses of Rogue, and they still have access to all the stealth and skills of other Rogues.

I see them as operating akin to Monks, finding and stabbing isolated, high-value enemies (like wizards and archers). However, unlike Monks, they can still unlock doors and chests and remove traps.

Now, that Taunt of theirs is a little unbalanced, but it would be busted on any class, not just Rogue. I'm not a fan of that ability in particular, but I don't think the subclass is busted for the same reasons you think it is busted.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If swashbucklers have comparably low damage output given some set of ideal assumptions and behaviours, then surely other rogue types do as well, but that's not really my point. At 3rd level the swashbuckler can just walk up to someone and whack them for 2d6 extra damage compared to the thief, which a) makes a clear difference in non-situational performance, b) is an extremely questionable thematic design path for the rogue class, and c) further clouds the question of just what sneak attack damage represents in this edition. All in all, a lot of iff.