Regaining powerpoints quickly with a Pathfinder+3.5 psion

[gadren]

I'm playing a psion in a high-cheese game where the DM allows pretty much all 3.5 and Pathfinder material (even stuff from Dragon), but requires the use of Pathfinder versions of things where they exist.

I was looking for tricks for regenerating power points without an 8-hour nap. Every trick I've found this far relies on lowering the cost of Bestow Power or a misunderstanding of how Body Fuel works. Bestow Power shenanigans don't work anymore because the Pathfinder version specifically says it can't have its cost reduced below the number of power points granted.

Any tricks I've missed? I don't care how cheesy they are.

EDIT: I'm playing a spell-to-power Erudite/Archivist/Psychic Theurge. Race is Psionic Duergar (pathfinder version)

[Doc_Maynot]

There is the trick using Incarnum. Is that system allowed?

[gadren]

There is the trick using Incarnum. Is that system allowed?

Pretty much everything is allowed. What's the trick?

[Psyren]

Note that you have to use the 3.5 version of Bestow Power - the PF/DSP version sealed up all the recharge tricks with caulk.

[Doc_Maynot]

MoI Infini-manifesting. (From this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0))


What you need: Azure Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, CON 13, a power point reserve.

Recommended: Psionic Mediation

How it works:

Azure talent grants you power points = to 2x the number of essentia invested in the feat, subject to your max essentia cap.

Psycarnum infusion grants virtual max essentia capacity in one of your soul-melds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles, until the start of your next turn, or effectively one round, in exchange for expending focus.

Furthermore, you cannot gain focus unless your reserve is above 0pp, thus a cognizance crystal will not work.

Example: let's pretend the max essentia capicity for this example is 3, and our power points are 1.
Step one: expend focus, activating psy-inf, targeting, azu-tal.
Step two: gain 6pp until next turn.
Step three: on next turn pp return to 0, as the azu-tal deactivates. you must regain focus to repeat.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to a 1st level power) with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal

2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia

3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)

4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Hustle/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)

5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)

6. Repeat 3-6

Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)

For all your Cheesy psionic tricks needs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook)
Scratch that, I didn't notice at first it needed Bestow Power.

[gadren]

MoI Infini-manifesting. (From this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0))


What you need: Azure Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, CON 13, a power point reserve.

Recommended: Psionic Mediation

How it works:

Azure talent grants you power points = to 2x the number of essentia invested in the feat, subject to your max essentia cap.

Psycarnum infusion grants virtual max essentia capacity in one of your soul-melds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles, until the start of your next turn, or effectively one round, in exchange for expending focus.

Furthermore, you cannot gain focus unless your reserve is above 0pp, thus a cognizance crystal will not work.

Example: let's pretend the max essentia capicity for this example is 3, and our power points are 1.
Step one: expend focus, activating psy-inf, targeting, azu-tal.
Step two: gain 6pp until next turn.
Step three: on next turn pp return to 0, as the azu-tal deactivates. you must regain focus to repeat.

Except Azure Talent specifically says it can only be used once per day. Am I missing something?

[Dusk Eclipse]

That only works if you actually invest (and lock) essentia into Azure Talent, since you are only "treating" it as full for a round as per Psycarnum infusion, it doesn't lock. Highly debatable trick, but it appears to work.

[Doc_Maynot]

Oh, and honestly with your build and the use of both on the table. Ir may be easier to go Psychic Mage (Wizard Archetype from Ultimate Psionics) They are basically power-to-spell wizards. They can both learn powers naturally and get to add them to their spellbooks. And are able to prepare powers into slots and cast them with the slot, or with PP. IIRC, there are far easier tricks to make infinite spell slots in PF/3.X (Sacred Geometry+Echoing Spell) comes to mind.

[gadren]

That only works if you actually invest (and lock) essentia into Azure Talent, since you are only "treating" it as full for a round as per Psycarnum infusion, it doesn't lock. Highly debatable trick, but it appears to work.

I have a feeling the GM will rule that "treated as if it had essentia invested in it" would still lock it, since when you invest essentia in it that locks the feat.

Any other suggestions?

[Necroticplague]

Fission+affinity Field+bestow power. Even without any reduction this will cause you to loose 3 power points to gain 4 (once you fuse back together).

EDIT:Crap, realized PF closed that off.

Any reason Strongheart Vest+Body Fuel can't work? You take one point of damage (burn is a type of damage). Which is then reduced to zero. Since Body Fuel doesn't specify an action cost, you can do this an arbitrary amount of time per turn.

Or on a similar note, Warforged Juggernauts are technically still living creatures, though they are immune to ability damage (and thus, ability burn). So you can take an arbitrary amount of damage to fill up every turn.

Not quiet the same but if someone in your party has a good FORT save and fast healing, you could try coup-de-gracing them with a Mindfeeder weapon.. Gives you at least a buffer of PP, regardless of how low you are, so as long as you conserve a little it can end up as the same thing. If your party members are weary of this, Fission+immunity to negative levels solve this problem.

[gadren]

Oh, and honestly with your build and the use of both on the table. Ir may be easier to go Psychic Mage (Wizard Archetype from Ultimate Psionics) They are basically power-to-spell wizards. They can both learn powers naturally and get to add them to their spellbooks. And are able to prepare powers into slots and cast them with the slot, or with PP. IIRC, there are far easier tricks to make infinite spell slots in PF/3.X (Sacred Geometry+Echoing Spell) comes to mind.

STP Erudite is better IMO because it allows me to learn ANY arcane spell as a power, not just wiz/sorc, and lets me replace any material component with 2pp, regardless of how expensive the component is.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You might be able to find an SLA or PLA version of Bestow Power. That way, the original power cost (3 pp) should not apply, and you bestow 2 PP per casting.

[Psyren]

You might be able to find an SLA or PLA version of Bestow Power. That way, the original power cost (3 pp) should not apply, and you bestow 2 PP per casting.

You'd still have to use the 3.5 version - the PF version specifically requires a pool reduction equal to any points transferred regardless of how much you reduce or eliminate the BP cost. This was intentional to stamp out the abuse of this power in 3.5.

[Doc_Maynot]

STP Erudite is better IMO because it allows me to learn ANY arcane spell as a power, not just wiz/sorc, and lets me replace any material component with 2pp, regardless of how expensive the component is.

Then Theurge the two. With all dragon magazine you can use divine with STP (forget the issue, I'll look it up). Use STP to scribe the powers you feel you will use more into power stones, and then add those to your spell book to cast those infinitely via the Sacred Geometry Trick. Or heck, just knowing that STPs exist and can have any divine or arcane spells as powers try to buy them as power stones and add them that way.

[gadren]

Any reason Strongheart Vest+Body Fuel can't work? You take one point of damage (burn is a type of damage). Which is then reduced to zero. Since Body Fuel doesn't specify an action cost, you can do this an arbitrary amount of time per turn.


Well Body Fuel says "Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three physical ability scores: ..."

I don't have access to strongheart vest's description at the moment, but iirc its schtick is that it prevents ability damage, right? Since the feat says you can gain PP by taking ability burn, wouldn't stopping ability burn stop the PP? Same prob with warforged or others immune to ability damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You'd still have to use the 3.5 version - the PF version specifically requires a pool reduction equal to any points transferred regardless of how much you reduce or eliminate the BP cost. This was intentional to stamp out the abuse of this power in 3.5.
Okay, in that case, it won't work. I admit I didn't check PF rules :smalleek:.

How about metaconcert + bestow power + (Sp/Su) simulacrum (or more generally, clones with bestow power)? The clones get power points (according to their reduced HD), dump them into the pool, then the entity bestows the whole stack of pp to your original. You can kill the clones after, or stow them in extradimensional storage, for another recharge tomorrow.

[Psyren]

Well Body Fuel says "Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three physical ability scores: ..."

I don't have access to strongheart vest's description at the moment, but iirc its schtick is that it prevents ability damage, right? Since the feat says you can gain PP by taking ability burn, wouldn't stopping ability burn stop the PP? Same prob with warforged or others immune to ability damage.

It depends on how you interpret "special form of ability damage."

The problem is that as written, you have to take ability damage for Body Fuel to work. Strongheart Vest specifically states that you take "no" ability damage if the damage you would take would be reduced to zero.


Okay, in that case, it won't work. I admit I didn't check PF rules :smalleek:.

How about metaconcert + bestow power + (Sp/Su) simulacrum (or more generally, clones with bestow power)? The clones get power points (according to their reduced HD), dump them into the pool, then the entity bestows the whole stack of pp to your original. You can kill the clones after, or stow them in extradimensional storage, for another recharge tomorrow.

This also requires a 3.5 version - PF Metaconcert does not create a separate "entity."

[ExLibrisMortis]

This also requires a 3.5 version - PF Metaconcert does not create a separate "entity."
However, the clones could still manifest bestow power, metaconcert isn't really necessary (I just think of it first because it's so awesome).

[Psyren]

However, the clones could still manifest bestow power, metaconcert isn't really necessary (I just think of it first because it's so awesome).

Yeah, you could simulacrum yourself (via UMD or something) and have that bestow power on you as it has a PP pool. This isn't infinite though and will get expensive fast.

[Xervous]

I have an inkling of something that might be able to work. The only tripping point beyond the cheese feat qualification currently is boosting the psicrystal's manifester level to cast 5ths, and maybe extending mental pinnacle's duration or speeding up psyref casting. Though the rulings on StP erudite + mental pinnacle interaction could throw this into jeopardy.

A summary.
Mental pinnacle the psicrystal. It can now manifest psychic crush, a 5th level power. Psyref the psicrystal to give it extra power (bestow power). Whenever you again share mental pinnacle on the psicrystal it once again qualifies for the feat and this comes back online.

(Memory fuzzy on StP casting mechanics)
11 PP for 6th level power, 2 PP to ignore material components = 13 PP
Minimum resulting PP on psicrystal: 11*3 = 33
bestow power conversion: 33*2/3 = 22 PP, parceled out over 4 turns (6,6,6,4)

[gadren]

Hmm, the Simulcrum trick may work with STP erudite.

The spell description is kind of vague about what the simulcrum gets. Has there ever been an official ruling that more explicitly establishes what simulcrum of psions get?


From Pathfinder SRD:

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

[Mithril Leaf]

Anyone have any functional ones yet? No?

You use any number of the 3.5 tricks to get extra skills ranks in Spellcraft, the specifics are up to you, although the old Bard Inspire Greatness + PsiRef is a classic. Now take 9 levels in Psicrystal Imprinter. Now use your Psicrystal to freely apply Twin Power to your Bestow Power. Gain 4 power points for every 3 that you spend. It's relatively high level and you lose one Manifester Level are the primary downsides. It's a great Cohort though, especially for Thrallherds.

[gadren]

Anyone have any functional ones yet? No?

You use any number of the 3.5 tricks to get extra skills ranks in Spellcraft, the specifics are up to you, although the old Bard Inspire Greatness + PsiRef is a classic. Now take 9 levels in Psicrystal Imprinter. Now use your Psicrystal to freely apply Twin Power to your Bestow Power. Gain 4 power points for every 3 that you spend. It's relatively high level and you lose one Manifester Level are the primary downsides. It's a great Cohort though, especially for Thrallherds.

Please read the OP. Bestow Power in Pathfinder specifically states that it won't grant more power points than it costs.

[Psyren]

I have an inkling of something that might be able to work. The only tripping point beyond the cheese feat qualification currently is boosting the psicrystal's manifester level to cast 5ths, and maybe extending mental pinnacle's duration or speeding up psyref casting. Though the rulings on StP erudite + mental pinnacle interaction could throw this into jeopardy.

A summary.
Mental pinnacle the psicrystal. It can now manifest psychic crush, a 5th level power. Psyref the psicrystal to give it extra power (bestow power). Whenever you again share mental pinnacle on the psicrystal it once again qualifies for the feat and this comes back online.

(Memory fuzzy on StP casting mechanics)
11 PP for 6th level power, 2 PP to ignore material components = 13 PP
Minimum resulting PP on psicrystal: 11*3 = 33
bestow power conversion: 33*2/3 = 22 PP, parceled out over 4 turns (6,6,6,4)

Psyreform takes 10 minutes to manifest, so you'll probably have a hard time keeping Pinnacle up that long.


Hmm, the Simulcrum trick may work with STP erudite.

The spell description is kind of vague about what the simulcrum gets. Has there ever been an official ruling that more explicitly establishes what simulcrum of psions get?

No, it's purely up to the GM what a Simulacrum can do, but making one of yourself should be pretty straightforward - it has all the abilities you had half your levels ago, which could easily include a PP pool and Bestow Power if you're high enough.

The problem is that psionics in PF can have material components, so making simulacrums of yourself all day long is likely going to be expensive.

[Mithril Leaf]

Please read the OP. Bestow Power in Pathfinder specifically states that it won't grant more power points than it costs.


You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. When you manifest this power, the subject gains up to 2 power points. You can transfer only as many power points to a subject as it has manifester levels.

Because of the intimate nature of this power, it cannot be fabricated into a psionic item—only power points generated by a psionic creature in the moment can be shared using bestow power.

Special The power point cost of this power cannot be reduced below the number of power points transferred. All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points; sources such as wild surge cannot pay for this effect. This power is not subject to the effects of affinity field.

Augment For every 3 additional power points you spend, the subject gains 2 additional power points.

Let's go through it step by step.
Are you transferring more power points than the subject has Manifester levels? No, as long as you don't augment it too much.
Are you using a psionic item to generate the power points? No, you are paying for the power itself out of pocket.
Are you reducing the power point cost of the power below the number of points transferred? This is the tricky part, but when we take just the bestow power on it's own before Twinning it, the answer is yes. We apply the meta-psionic feat after the power calculates it's numbers, as with when you apply Empower and Maximize.
Are you paying out of pocket and not using Wild Surge? Yes, for the calculations of the power you are.

[gadren]

No, it's purely up to the GM what a Simulacrum can do, but making one of yourself should be pretty straightforward - it has all the abilities you had half your levels ago, which could easily include a PP pool and Bestow Power if you're high enough.

The problem is that psionics in PF can have material components, so making simulacrums of yourself all day long is likely going to be expensive.

STP Erudite specifically says you have the option of providing the material components or 2 extra pp. Simulacrum is a 5th level summoner spell, so for an Erudite it has a base cost of 9. That means by level 11, an STP erudite can create simulacrums for free.

The power still takes 12 hours, so this is not an infinite PP regen. However you could create a lot of them, then stick them in a portable hole to be used as batteries.

[Psyren]

Let's go through it step by step.
Are you transferring more power points than the subject has Manifester levels? No, as long as you don't augment it too much.
Are you using a psionic item to generate the power points? No, you are paying for the power itself out of pocket.
Are you reducing the power point cost of the power below the number of points transferred? This is the tricky part, but when we take just the bestow power on it's own before Twinning it, the answer is yes. We apply the meta-psionic feat after the power calculates it's numbers, as with when you apply Empower and Maximize.
Are you paying out of pocket and not using Wild Surge? Yes, for the calculations of the power you are.

You're disregarding the key line though: "All points transferred must be deducted from the manifester’s pool of power points." That means if you twin it to transfer a total of 4, you need to deduct 4, even if the actual cost to do so would have only been 3. It sets the floor to whatever the target gets, whether you spend that much to pay for the power or not.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm....

Get a wand (or custom item, or get it as a power known) of Dweomer of Transference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm).
Note that Spell-like abilities (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-) have a useful clause:
Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.(emphasis added)

If they work just like spells for purposes of interactions (including with spells), then Dweomer of Transferrence + any at-will spell-like = free temp PP to spend. For reference, a Paladin-1's Detect Evil is a 1st level spell. A few cheap simulacrums to quickly flood your temp PP reserve and you're set.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can use Body Fuel with a bit of trickery. Once you've restored your pp you can just cast Remove Fatigue (BoED) which, among other things, gives you "the benefits of 8 hours of restful sleep", one of which is natural healing.

Now you just need to boost your natural healing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189716-Boosting-Rest-Based-Healing-A-Microguide-3-5) to heal more than one point of ability burn and you can get your pp in 10 minutes instead of 8 hours.

Note that Remove Fatigue may, purely by RAW, work on its own. Since psionics has the same restrictions as arcane magic though your DM may well rule that you'd still need 8 hours of doing nothing. Using Body Fuel gets around that restriction.

[Xervous]

Psyreform takes 10 minutes to manifest, so you'll probably have a hard time keeping Pinnacle up that long.


After a twice over of PF's psicrystal rules I'm not 100% on whether or not they get feats. The following assumes they do.

The wonderful thing about this method is that you only need to sink all the PP in for the setup once. After that just share a mental pinnacle with your psicrystal and bask in the free PP. This leaves two impediments along the way.

1. Getting the PsyRef off, preferably without any help.
A. Have your psicrystal UPD a dorje of psyref while you spam mental pinnacle. Even if the GM opts for some interpretation wherein you can't infinitely chain your own mental pinnacle off itself 6 manifestings will only cost you 78 PP tops.
B. Higher ML option without dorje: set up a schism to remanifest mental pinnacle and schism while you do the manifesting for psyref. Though you have to be level 17.

2. Get your psicrystal 9 manifesting levels.
Hidden Talent + practiced manifester gets us to 5. Psi/magic transparency seems to be the only avenue to go down given the general lack of always on ML boosters.

[gadren]

I've decided to take a life-spark psicrystal psion as my cohort and then make like 20 free simulacrums of it which I will stick in a bag of holding. Between fights, I will take one out and have it manifest bestow power on me repeatedly until I'm refilled or it's out.

[Yak folklore]

I have a not super quick, but not super cheesy or reliant on poor wording way: earth power feat + torc of power preservation + bestow power = 1 pp regained every other round, every round if you have the psionic meditation feat (which I consider essential anyway, or else meta psionics are a 1 time per encounter thing)
Ok, so the biggest issue with this is the needing to stand on "stone or unworked earth", but the way my dm defines that allows for cutting out a piece and throwing it in a portable hole, the whole thing allows a 20th level Psion to regain all pp in 34 minutes, with the useful add on that the pp gain happen continuously, so if you are interrupted, you still get as much as you can get in that time. Combine with body adjustment and a magic something that removes the need to sleep, and you are ready for a new day in an hour.
Oh, and always keep 1pp on you!

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: with my regained Power Points, I Manifest Close Necrothread.