Lore Bard or Valor Bard

[Shojiteru]

So I want a character that is good at staying out of reach. The Valor Archer Bard and the Lore Support Bard.
The Valor Archer Bard is basically the same as the Lore Support Bard spell wise, except for 3 spells. Skill wise, it's missing 3 skills. Lore Support Bard is missing basically damage that doesn't rely on spell slots a lot since Viscous Mockery is a Mockery of damage.

Which would be better in a sense? They are both situational, but which is more effective in combat? Not just the damage part of combat, but the overall aspect of the sport. Valors will be doing damage and support only when it is needed while Lore will be blowing through spell slots for support while doing virtually no damage.

Half Elf Bard:

Valor
8 Str
16 Dex
8 Con
16 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha
1st feat is Sharpshooter while rest are for Dex and Cha. Int/Wis are switchable depending on party. Usually Int is lacking since most will pick Wis.

Lore
8 Str
10 Dex
8 Con
16 Int
16 Wis
16 Cha
After 20 Cha, probably pick up Keen Mind/Observant Int then 2 Wis or try to fit Inspiring Leader somewhere.

Both will be effectively good at skills and support. I thought I could mix the 2 by having a Archer Lore but without that extra attack and Battle Magic, is it really worth it? Basically, I have what Valor would do; shoot arrows. Lore would just cast VM while waiting for the right time to cast a spell basically the same time Valor would (Until 10th level, Valor and Lore would seem to be casting the same spells at the same time while Lore uses VM instead of Arrows for less damage when not wasting spell slots.)

Those true fans of the Lore Bard, why is it superior to the Valor? You can argue the spells, but they both can do the same spells (except 3 but that will compete with the other spells since slots and concentration can't stretch that far). At higher levels, more slots and Swift quiver separate the two but beforehand, they are pretty similar support wise.

To end my rambling on a simple question of which is your favorite and why instead of going into how much more useful Lore skills are, I will end it here.

[Yorrin]

While I'm a Lore guy myself, both have their uses. The way I see it you've got two variables to consider. The first is party composition, the second is playstyle. Valor Archer is going to eat up your actions with weapon attacks and your stolen spells are more likely to be self buffs that can be cast as a swift action or out of combat for utility. Lore Caster is going to be putting down more crowd control and buffs/debuffs, using up spell slots as your actions and stealing spells appropriate to that role. In order to play a Lore Caster effectively you need other teammates who are already contributing plenty of damage, as that is your weak point. Valor Archer might be the choice for if you've already got a another character doing all that caster-y stuff (which is likely a Wizard).

[sophontteks]

The bonus spells from any spell school are really really strong. Search on the forums. People have found some real good uses for these. There are some ranger and paladin spells that can really put some bite into that one attack too.

The bonus attack is nice, but as a full spellcaster attacking in general looks kind of weak.

[smcmike]

Even if you are planning on staying out of reach, 8 Con seems like madness to me, especially if you are giving up all those HP for nothing more than skill checks.

[eastmabl]

Not going to weigh in about the choice between the bardic colleges, but... Con 8 for almost any character is going to be really tough. You're going to be going through life with:

- 7 hp at first level with 4 hp for each following level. By the time you hit level 20, you'll have 63 HP, which means you could be PWK'd with full HP. Alternatively, a 4th level scorching ray spell stands a serious chance of dropping you to 0 HP.
- A Constitution Saving Throw of -1. Not only is this bad for spells which target your Constitution, spells with Concentration are going to be hard for you to maintain if you take any damage (at best, you fail 50% of the time [DC 10 with -1 to save]).

Really, you're hoping that your friends attract all of the attacks, that no one uses spells/abilities with area of affect/multiple targets, and that no one picks up on the fact that you're the one who is orchestrating the whole deal.

I like this play style, but I think that a Con 8 is a really big hole in either build. I'd recommend sinking some point buy into Constitution.

[Shojiteru]

8 Con is bad for a lot of things, but i think it would be a lot more fun that way. I was thinking more like a Noble Bard who was privileged to the point of having 8 Str and Con so he's weak physically but mentally and with more finesse, he was trained so that he is superior.
Low HP is devastating but that's the motivation to stay as far away from the actual combat as possible. I see it as if he risks taking damage, he is doing something wrong. He will also avoid even light armour, showing confidence and faith in not only his abilities, but the trust in his comrades to guard him.

When I was going through the spells, I was making sure they were all long range and even touch ones would have a familiar for the lore. On the downside, the first few levels for each, until the bard gets to level 3-4 for longbow/sharpshooter, although the lore is kind of always at risk but that's the point of being the controller! Personally, I just think it's more fun to purposely be at disadvantage to be more creative to turn it into advantage.. Kind of like my Drow Monk fighting in the daytime.

For me, they would both take the same spells. Only difference is Find Familiar and maybe Bless(Depending on party) for Lore at 6 and Destructive Wave at 10. The Valor doesn't really get anything different but Swift Quiver since if he doesn't Swift Quiver which is when he will focus just on archery and ignore spells, he will use control spells to control the field with arrows flying between spells.

I'm mostly torn since I want to be a controller/utility with skills along with a damage dealer. I can do that with Valor, getting more damage with Battle Magic and extra attack to pick if I want to do damage or support/control. With Lore, it's less damage dealer with more utility/controller.

When weighing both, which is more? Is the lore more of a controller/utility/support than the valor can deal damage?
Example:
Lore's score is controller is 2, utility 2, support 2, damage 1.
Valor's score is controller 1, utility 1, support 1, damage 3.
In that case, Valor is inferior but these are just random. I think I'm looking for more of a comparison as to which would be a little over the other in total instead of just 1 aspect and I may have answered that myself with my own example...

EDIT: I can at minimum make con 10 if not more, which I might since I was thinking Jack of All Trades would cover con checks so I won't suffer much in checks but in those cases that an enemy does get to go first and goes straight for the weak, armourless noble, then would definitely need more HP. (Perhaps Tough Feat for Lore. Drop INT to 14 to go up to 16 with Observant and Keen Mind. 16 wis to start and start with 12 con. That'll be 100 extra HP for level 20 vs the +1 wis/int)

[JAL_1138]

How high is the campaign going? Valors don't "kick in" for a good while. Level 10, really. Extra Attack at 6 isn't bad[/] but you have no features that add to it like maneuvers, sneak attack, or Smites. With Crossbow Expert for a third attack with a hand crossbow, it's respectable but still not great. At level 10, when you start stealing spells from other lists, their damage starts to get pretty darn good. Heavy Crossbow and Sharpshooter with Swift Quiver? Yeah, you're laying on some hurt. Combat Inspiration, though, is just never as good as Cutting Words that Lore gets. And Lore can start laying down the hurt a lot faster in some ways, by taking Fireball and Lightning Bolt at 6th if you like.

Valor is more [i]fun to me, since I like playing "does everything" characters who can jump into a straight-up fight as well as cast, but Lore is probably "better."

Edit: The Bard capstone isn't great, so if you want better damage as a Lore, snag two levels of Warlock for Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast. Scaling damage + mod. The "Bardlock" is an outstanding MC.

[Shojiteru]

How high is the campaign going? Valors don't "kick in" for a good while. Level 10, really. Extra Attack at 6 isn't bad[/] but you have no features that add to it like maneuvers, sneak attack, or Smites. With Crossbow Expert for a third attack with a hand crossbow, it's respectable but still not great. At level 10, when you start stealing spells from other lists, their damage starts to get pretty darn good. Heavy Crossbow and Sharpshooter with Swift Quiver? Yeah, you're laying on some hurt. Combat Inspiration, though, is just never as good as Cutting Words that Lore gets. And Lore can start laying down the hurt a lot faster in some ways, by taking Fireball and Lightning Bolt at 6th if you like.

Valor is more [i]fun to me, since I like playing "does everything" characters who can jump into a straight-up fight as well as cast, but Lore is probably "better."

Edit: The Bard capstone isn't great, so if you want better damage as a Lore, snag two levels of Warlock for Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast. Scaling damage + mod. The "Bardlock" is an outstanding MC.

They both are kind of meh at early levels. Both basically stuck using VM until Valor becomes a Valor then can use Longbow. 4th gets Sharpshooter then 6th is Extra Attack. Then a stretch to 10th. Lore has to wait until 6th to get Magical Secrets. Both of them will be casting Support/Control spells. The way I play would be avoiding the actual fight while just slinging arrows/spells. Either way, you will need at minimum a full round of movement to even get to them.

I may need to find out how high the campaign will go but at any level, I see it as being somewhat similar. The Valor will have to give out inspiration before the fight to those who would need it since during, bonus actions aren't "free." Both might have to depending on how far away the combat gets and depending on HP/AC, 60' is kind of too close to combat. Out of shortbow distance would be preferred. In that case, Valor seems to shine since they get most distance and Cutting Words would be gimped. Both their spell castings may be gimped as well at 100' distance.

[JAL_1138]

They both are kind of meh at early levels. Both basically stuck using VM until Valor becomes a Valor then can use Longbow. 4th gets Sharpshooter then 6th is Extra Attack. Then a stretch to 10th. Lore has to wait until 6th to get Magical Secrets. Both of them will be casting Support/Control spells. The way I play would be avoiding the actual fight while just slinging arrows/spells. Either way, you will need at minimum a full round of movement to even get to them.

I may need to find out how high the campaign will go but at any level, I see it as being somewhat similar. The Valor will have to give out inspiration before the fight to those who would need it since during, bonus actions aren't "free." Both might have to depending on how far away the combat gets and depending on HP/AC, 60' is kind of too close to combat. Out of shortbow distance would be preferred. In that case, Valor seems to shine since they get most distance and Cutting Words would be gimped. Both their spell castings may be gimped as well at 100' distance.

Unless you know you're going to be fighting overland and outdoors most of the time, building for encounter distances that big is probably not going to work out as well as you think. Indoor fights and dungeons simply won't allow you to hang back that far, and overland fighting carries its own risks.

If you're hanging that far back from the party, likely alone, you run the major risk of getting jumped by other enemies than the ones the party is meleeing with. They may not get stealth or surprise, but they can mob you faster than you can deal with them. Even some breaking off from the main group and heading out to get you can ruin your day. In forested areas or rocky ground, you might also not be able to get line-of-sight from that far.

And as you point out, it will limit your casting considerably. Most spells just don't have the range you're wanting, not without class features bards don't have. Better to play a rogue character and take Ritual Caster in that case.

[smcmike]

Low HP is devastating but that's the motivation to stay as far away from the actual combat as possible.

Personally, I just think it's more fun to purposely be at disadvantage to be more creative to turn it into advantage.. Kind of like my Drow Monk fighting in the daytime.

EDIT: I can at minimum make con 10 if not more, which I might since I was thinking Jack of All Trades would cover con checks so I won't suffer much in checks but in those cases that an enemy does get to go first and goes straight for the weak, armourless noble, then would definitely need more HP. (Perhaps Tough Feat for Lore. Drop INT to 14 to go up to 16 with Observant and Keen Mind. 16 wis to start and start with 12 con. That'll be 100 extra HP for level 20 vs the +1 wis/int)

If you are the sort that thinks playing a drow monk in the sunlight is a fun challenge, I say make your constitution 6 to really amp up the pleasure.

I must point out, however, that Jack of All Trades won't help you much, since constitution checks are pretty rare. It will help you keep up in a drinking contest, I guess. What it won't do is help you concentrate on a spell, which requires a constitution saving throw.

What do intelligence and wisdom get you? A noble can be dumb or foolhardy too. Actually, those fit better than "sickly" if you ask me.


Both might have to depending on how far away the combat gets and depending on HP/AC, 60' is kind of too close to combat. Out of shortbow distance would be preferred. In that case, Valor seems to shine since they get most distance and Cutting Words would be gimped. Both their spell castings may be gimped as well at 100' distance.

Most campaigns don't let you stay that far away consistently. You need a plan for when the giant golem springs out of the floor right next to you as the door slams shut behind. My plan with my last archer was to roll a new character :(.

[sophontteks]

You could look at it this way.

If 10 con is average, what's average? look at some of the NPCs around. They aren't exactly bastions of health. Even a pampered noble would likely have a higher con just because they ate decent food daily. Heck, by adventurers standards, you can take 12 con, and in comparison to pretty much every other adventurer, your sickly.

[Shojiteru]

Doc Q gets away with being sickly all the time. Iknow I wont be abe to go max distance all the time and probally be forced into running distance at times, but at that point, I would be in trouble even if I wasnt sickly since if something that can hit 70-100 wanted to kill me, I'm sure it can just walk straight through my hits and just kill me then brush off the arrows.

Concentration was never a worry because losing concentration on a hit would be the least of my concerns when about to drop my bow and run.

So how viable is a Lore archer? Would it be just as good as the valor or better?
8 str
16 dex
10 con
14/12 Int/Wis
16 cha
Sharpshooter and 4 asi

Or
8 str
10 dex
12 con
14 int
16 wis
16 cha
2 asi cha, keen mind, observant, (tough/inspiring leader or secondary; skilled/mobile/war caster/skilled)

Atm, i would lean towards the second for more feats although would want the option for some good spell damage.

[Malifice]

The lore bard-aladin is one of the best class combos in the game.

14/6 is the traditional split.

[Mr.Moron]

Lore Bard/Paladin is the character I'd be playing if I was playing right now. Nothing better than a paragon of goodness who gives inspiring speeches and has an intellectual side.

[Shojiteru]

Paladin and bard would be a bit wierd to me. I never seen paladins as smart. Why would they spend time studying and not stopping evil? They dont have time to think.

[Malifice]

Paladin and bard would be a bit wierd to me. I never seen paladins as smart. Why would they spend time studying and not stopping evil? They dont have time to think.

Thats an odd thing to say.

Warlord. Paladin of Azuth. And so on.

[Mr.Moron]

Paladin and bard would be a bit wierd to me. I never seen paladins as smart. Why would they spend time studying and not stopping evil? They dont have time to think.

Stopping to think is very important of doing good. Being exposed to culture and stories helps you understand and empathize with others and keep from making hasty judgement.

Knowledge of history lets your draw on the ideas & methods of heroes past.
Knowledge of magic and fiends lets you anticipate and counter the moves of evildoers more easily
Knowledge of nature and terrain keeps you from wasting time and can be useful for finding cover for the innocent when things get dangerous.
Being able to present rational well-thought arguments helps convince others to aid you in your cause.

For the Devotion paladin, you gain many tools for a measured and thoughtful approach to protecting people.
For the Ancients paladin, you gain stories and songs for sharing the joy.

There is no part of the paladin shtick that can't be made better and just more paladin-y with good helping of lore and people skills under your belt.

[Shojiteru]

Thats an odd thing to say.

Warlord. Paladin of Azuth. And so on.

True, I guess I just dont like being up on the front lines. My front line character is a monk and he immediately leaves the front line at the end of his turn. Also, I like the Wish spell.

[Shojiteru]

Stopping to think is very important of doing good. Being exposed to culture and stories helps you understand and empathize with others and keep from making hasty judgement.

Knowledge of history lets your draw on the ideas & methods of heroes past.
Knowledge of magic and fiends lets you anticipate and counter the moves of evildoers more easily
Knowledge of nature and terrain keeps you from wasting time and can be useful for finding cover for the innocent when things get dangerous.
Being able to present rational well-thought arguments helps convince others to aid you in your cause.

For the Devotion paladin, you gain many tools for a measured and thoughtful approach to protecting people.
For the Ancients paladin, you gain stories and songs for sharing the joy.

There is no part of the paladin shtick that can't be made better and just more paladin-y with good helping of lore and people skills under your belt.

Good argument. Or, or.. you can run up and hit it with a sword. Wisdom would let you tell whether its good or not and if it's not, hit it.

Devotion would probally be the most intelligent since they need to study their religion and the laws and investigate the criminals.

Vengeance needs it less because kill evil at all costs. Typically the first choice for paladins since you can do your job without drawbacks.

I dont really like any paladin since vengeance is better early on and devotion best with 20 cha (divinity only). After that, i just dont like what they get until vengeance's angel. If a new subclass comes that i like better, i would throw in some paladin since theyre damage and tankiness are insane.

[Mr.Moron]

Good argument. Or, or.. you can run up and hit it with a sword. Wisdom would let you tell whether its good or not and if it's not, hit it.

Then you're just a self-righteous berserker who if you're lucky, maybe winds up hitting the right targets under the right circumstances. If I was going for this concept I'd just roll a Barbarian with a holy symbol and maybe the acolyte background.

[Shojiteru]

Then you're just a self-righteous berserker who if you're lucky, maybe winds up hitting the right targets under the right circumstances. If I was going for this concept I'd just roll a Barbarian with a holy symbol and maybe the acolyte background.

Same thing really. Charlatan can become an Assassin in that case. Paladins will always hit. They are the right hand of their god, smiting evil. Besides, a beserker would kill himself before the day is over. The paladin wkll just have no spells left.

[Mr.Moron]

Same thing really. Charlatan can become an Assassin in that case. Paladins will always hit. They are the right hand of their god, smiting evil. Besides, a beserker would kill himself before the day is over. The paladin wkll just have no spells left.

I think we just have very, very different ideas of what the ideal paladin is. To my mind, smiting evil is certainly on the list of duties but relatively low on the list unless your Vengeance. Even then, god or the eternal forces of good aren't going to guide your hand to the degree you can march forward carelessly swinging your sword at whatever it feels good to swing it at. The judgement is yours to make with all the consequences of making it correctly or incorrectly weighing on you and you alone. The paladin is a chosen indepedant agent of whatever force empowers them not puppet on strings.

[Shojiteru]

Idont remember what it was called but the divine ability of the devotion paladin gives +5 to attack which sounds an aweful lot like god's guidance. War cleric gets gods push for extra damage while paladin gets guided. Tose two classes need to be wise to know good and evil while the paladin has to stop evil. We see it differently, sure, although personally mine would be more towards vengeance. Ancient is just the devotion to the forest. Devotion is devoted. Intelligence, while important, would cloud judgement which is why i would be more towards vengeance. Too much thinking lets evil get away,

[Citan]

So I want a character that is good at staying out of reach.
The Valor Archer Bard is basically the same as the Lore Support Bard spell wise, except for 3 spells. Skill wise, it's missing 3 skills. Lore Support Bard is missing basically damage that doesn't rely on spell slots a lot since Viscous Mockery is a Mockery of damage.

Which would be better in a sense? They are both situational, but which is more effective in combat? Not just the damage part of combat, but the overall aspect of the sport. Valors will be doing damage and support only when it is needed while Lore will be blowing through spell slots for support while doing virtually no damage.

Those true fans of the Lore Bard, why is it superior to the Valor? You can argue the spells, but they both can do the same spells (except 3 but that will compete with the other spells since slots and concentration can't stretch that far). At higher levels, more slots and Swift quiver separate the two but beforehand, they are pretty similar support wise.

Hi!

First of, if you consider multiclassing, Lore Bard with either Paladin, Rogue or Fighter would be great at ranged.
Examples
Devotion Paladin 6 (for spells, extra attack, +CHA to saves / Lore Bard 14 (everything else)
Fighter 11 (3 attacks) / Lore Bard 9 (everything else)
Valor Bard 11 (extra attack, spells) / Arcane Trickster 9 (slots, Sneak attack, evasion, expertise, disadvantage on saving throw if hidden).
I'll detail on these (or other alternatives) in case you would be interested.

With that said, pure Bard is very good also (except the "meh" capstone). So, on the main point.

No archetype is strictly better than the other for want you want, because it really depends on how you build it. That's why I'm a bit surprised that you say you would take the same spells and feats.

Thoughts on Valor Bard
Valor Bard main action will be weapon attacks with "Attack" action. so you will probably use your concentration on buffing yourself, but good spells for you won't come before lvl 10 Magic Secrets (Haste, Swift Quiver, Elemental Weapon).
Sharpshooter is a given for this build.

Thoughts on Lore Bard
Lore Bard main action will be rather a cantrip, since he will never have 2 attacks as a basis.
You could still take Sharpshooter but it will a bit of a waste because rarely will you have the chance to use it well (especially because of the malus).
It would be far better imo to take Spellsniper for two reasons.
1) Usable with all spells.
2) Provides an attack cantrip (so you can pick Eldricht Blast without using Magic Secrets as soon as lvl4, and even without the related Invocations it's one of the best attack cantrips for Bard).
So you will have a good ranged attack, with very good range, and you can max only CHA.

Also, Vicious Mockery is one of the best cantrips available imo (I don't account the "soon official" new cantrips), because this is one of the few cantrips that help protect your melee allies (thus making them more survivable, so able to stay in melee and strike for a longer time). Contributing indirectly to the damage.
Lore Bard will also probably spam Dissonant Whispers, one of the 5 best lvl1 spells ever as long as you have a good melee ally available (best with Rogue/Paladin), because you can provoke AoO.

Summary
>>> Unless you really want to be a ranged Bard because you throw arrows, I'd suggest Lore Bard: you will have a very good attack early on, with a Feat good for everything, and you will have 5 levels to think about what to take with lvl6 Magic Secrets, either to buff (Haste), get offensive spell (Fireball), tank, or everything at once (Conjure Animals \o/).

Note though that I suggest this only because it provides more flexibility overall on how you build it, while being as efficient for the most part. Valor Bard is as good a path, only with different build choices, and a bit more focused on self-buffing and weapon attack enhancing spells imo.

Both can be as efficient in combat, just not through the same methods. Choose by considering your affinities and also party composition (if you have already one dedicated buffer / healer, you could favor Valor. If you are "alone" or you have several good melee warriors, you may prefer Lore Bard for Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers and multi-target buffing at lvl 6).

My 2 cents. :)

[sophontteks]

oath of the ancients paladins possess ideals very similiar to taoism or buddhism. The big dumb bastion of rightiousness has been thrown out the window.
oath of the ancients also specifically love music and the arts. sounds like a perfect match to me.

[Citan]

Idont remember what it was called but the divine ability of the devotion paladin gives +5 to attack which sounds an aweful lot like god's guidance. War cleric gets gods push for extra damage while paladin gets guided. Tose two classes need to be wise to know good and evil while the paladin has to stop evil. We see it differently, sure, although personally mine would be more towards vengeance. Ancient is just the devotion to the forest. Devotion is devoted. Intelligence, while important, would cloud judgement which is why i would be more towards vengeance. Too much thinking lets evil get away,
True, if you want to roleplay your character (as you should ;)), Paladin has some constraints.
With that said, I didn't have the impression that Paladin had to act in a "religious" way, such as following rites or very detailed codes. I feel it's more like a few stricts rules of behaviour to respect at all times.
So, you could be a Bard that, after a traumatic event in his life, decides to devote himself to a noble cause.

Or a Paladin from an original order who preaches conflict resolution through non-violent means, that decides that following a Bardic carrier would help propagate his beliefs (composing and performing songs) and enforce it when necessary (with skills and spells).

Also, Sacred Weapon: you're right that it could be considered as being a proper emanation of a divinity. But you could as well see it as Paladin's own soul force, that he knows how to manifest thanks to years of prayers and training (=anyone could do it with sufficient training and maturity, as long as they are at peace with themselves).

[sophontteks]

Well to continue my previous post about paladins. Yes paladins are religious, but what is religion?

In the west we are very spiritualistic and we get this mixed up with religious but they are not the same. Religions are not about believing in a deity, they are often just philosophies on the meaning of our lives along with a set of rituals or practices that help us understand this philosophy. Religions have fuelled science and philosophy for centuries
with some of histories greatest minds driving the practice even further.

Taoism and Confucianism don't affirm or deny the existence of deities. They are just beliefs for how people should live. This is the religious aspect that paladins follow, and its far from making them appear stupid, if anything it encourages the opposite as Paladins constantly seek enlightenment through their practice, always searching for a deeper meaning in their actions.

Of these, the Oath of the ancients fits the bard like a glove with hardly any restrictions what-so-ever. They literally believe in the arts. If your bard seeks something deeper then just playing music for fun, the ancients paladin is an amazing option. Its a bard with deep Taoist undertones.

[Corran]

8 Con is bad for a lot of things, but i think it would be a lot more fun that way. I was thinking more like a Noble Bard who was privileged to the point of having 8 Str and Con so he's weak physically but mentally and with more finesse, he was trained so that he is superior.
Low HP is devastating but that's the motivation to stay as far away from the actual combat as possible. I see it as if he risks taking damage, he is doing something wrong. He will also avoid even light armour, showing confidence and faith in not only his abilities, but the trust in his comrades to guard him.

When I was going through the spells, I was making sure they were all long range and even touch ones would have a familiar for the lore. On the downside, the first few levels for each, until the bard gets to level 3-4 for longbow/sharpshooter, although the lore is kind of always at risk but that's the point of being the controller! Personally, I just think it's more fun to purposely be at disadvantage to be more creative to turn it into advantage.. Kind of like my Drow Monk fighting in the daytime.

For me, they would both take the same spells. Only difference is Find Familiar and maybe Bless(Depending on party) for Lore at 6 and Destructive Wave at 10. The Valor doesn't really get anything different but Swift Quiver since if he doesn't Swift Quiver which is when he will focus just on archery and ignore spells, he will use control spells to control the field with arrows flying between spells.

I'm mostly torn since I want to be a controller/utility with skills along with a damage dealer. I can do that with Valor, getting more damage with Battle Magic and extra attack to pick if I want to do damage or support/control. With Lore, it's less damage dealer with more utility/controller.

When weighing both, which is more? Is the lore more of a controller/utility/support than the valor can deal damage?
Example:
Lore's score is controller is 2, utility 2, support 2, damage 1.
Valor's score is controller 1, utility 1, support 1, damage 3.
In that case, Valor is inferior but these are just random. I think I'm looking for more of a comparison as to which would be a little over the other in total instead of just 1 aspect and I may have answered that myself with my own example...

EDIT: I can at minimum make con 10 if not more, which I might since I was thinking Jack of All Trades would cover con checks so I won't suffer much in checks but in those cases that an enemy does get to go first and goes straight for the weak, armourless noble, then would definitely need more HP. (Perhaps Tough Feat for Lore. Drop INT to 14 to go up to 16 with Observant and Keen Mind. 16 wis to start and start with 12 con. That'll be 100 extra HP for level 20 vs the +1 wis/int)
https://youtu.be/_i5Yw4ZoDO0?t=51