Dragon Shaman Core Only

[TeeHee]

I need help making a dragon shaman build with core only (or at least not the dragon magic books as my DM wants to keep it simple). Try to keep it to players handbook 1 and 2 and complete adventurer/race books. Advice on race, weaponry, and especially FEATS would be awesome. I was thinking copper or silver dragon totem and dwarf or human. My ability scores before race mods are as follows:
Strength 14
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 14

[ComaVision]

Dragon Shaman is a really weak class. Do you know what the other members of your group are playing, for reference?

[Curmudgeon]

You need to explain what "core only" means to you, because the Dragon Shaman isn't in a core book (one that has CORE RULEBOOK on the front cover).

[Vrock_Summoner]

You need to explain what "core only" means to you, because the Dragon Shaman isn't in a core book (one that has CORE RULEBOOK on the front cover).


Try to keep it to players handbook 1 and 2 and complete adventurer/race books.
He did explain.

Anyway, I'll go troll through the books and see if there's anything decent in that group of splats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Entangling Exhalation is a must have. It will slow people down a little and your breath weapon is entirely lackluster without it.

As for race I highly recommend dragonborn dwarf/mongrelfolk/anything that boosts Con. Picking up something that adds to your non-combat options would be good for skills/feats/dragonborn.

In combat I have never seen a dragon shaman be anything but spectacularly awful. Their breath weapon is inconsistent and vulnerable to resistance and their attacks are worse than a warrior of the same level.

[GreatDane]

Dwarf is very nice if you can get desert dwarves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertDwarves) from Unearthed Arcana - they swap the Charisma penalty (which is rough on a dragon shaman) for a Dexterity one.

Feats are pretty hard for dragon shaman with the sources you've mentioned, since that knocks out metabreath feats and Double Draconic Aura (if you make it to level 12). I would recommend finding a generic schtick (charging, intimidation, something that can be tacked on to any class with a few feats) and develop that through your feats, since you'll find very little to support your normal class abilities.

Finally, I'm gonna drop the Dragon Shaman Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214007-3-5-Dragon-Shaman-Handbook) for your reference.

[Curmudgeon]

He did explain.
I beg to differ. "Try to keep it to ..." isn't an explanation. Is a book like Dragonlance Campaign Setting acceptable? It's a race book, among other things.

[Psyren]

I think by "Race books" he means "Races of X" though that has question marks of its own. (e.g. are setting-specific ones like Races of Eberron included?)

[Troacctid]

You're definitely going to want to trade your 4th level aura for a least draconic invocation.

I also strongly recommend going into a standalone prestige class ASAP. Something like Chameleon, Ur-Priest, Assassin, Suel Arcanamach, that sort of thing (although your weak ability scores rule out a lot of the best ones). Dragon Shaman abilities scale very poorly, so once you get the main stuff from the early levels, you want to have an exit route, or you'll have trouble contributing at higher levels.

[Eisfalken]

Gonna have to agree; dragon shaman gets a big "meh" from me. I mean... it's okay, I guess, just can't do anything terribly useful all the way to 20. It's really more a fifth wheel than an essential class.

I honestly think getting your DM to let you pull off dragonfire adept from Dragon Magic is a far, far, far better option. Hell, you can even get a couple of draconic auras via feats if you really want them.

If it's more a matter that you want a dragon-flavored class that doesn't suck, you could just go with sorcerer and a few choice feats and spells to give you that style. If you really, really want to, you could even build a warped kind of gish build that makes you a fairly effective dragon, using assorted ACFs, feats, and some choice spells. No, you're not quite a "real" dragon, but you're pretty darn close, and you at least still have some slight flexibility in the event that strategy won't work even with a real dragon of some kind on the scene.

If you just want to use some cool classes out of PHB2, I'd lean more to beguiler and duskblade for various builds. I like knight, too, but... it's a funky class to build up (seriously, poor Fort save, WTH?).

[ZamielVanWeber]

He said he didn't want Dragon Magic. That is the only reason I didn't suggest DFA over Dragon Shaman. To be honest Dragon fire Adept is a fairly simple class. You have a breath weapon (with a few upgrades) and a small smattering on invocations. A wizard made under your guidelines would be far more complicated.

[TeeHee]

The books I mentioned and races of books yes, setting materials are also okay. And i know its a weak class but the others are new players and going with rogue and stabdard ranger so I want to be a bit underpowered. I'm more looking for generic concepts of what sorts of strategies work to help out my party in combat mostly (I will probably be the tank) but also in noncombat situations. I am fairly new to the game myself so sorry about not getting all of the terminology right.

[HolyDraconus]

I had a dragon shaman once. Dm ruled la of 2 or less is free, so I ended up this monstrosity that had 10 on all mental scores, a 32 on con and a 30 on str (dex was 10). Large size is stupid.

[Troacctid]

In that case I would actually recommend playing a Druid or Cleric. Your party currently has no casters, so having some magic would be very useful. Both classes are great at tanking and support, and they're both very forgiving for new players, so you'll have plenty of room to grow as you get a better feel for the game mechanics. Just switch your 17 to Wisdom and one of your 14s to Constitution.

(If you can't switch your stats around, then ignore everything I just said.)

Dragon Shaman is extremely underpowered. The class has very few abilities, and most of the ones it does have are mediocre at best. Its dearth of skill points makes it mostly useless outside of combat, and its poor damage output and mediocre defenses make it an underperformer inside combat as well. The whole package is weak and poorly designed overall, and I would not recommend it for a new player, or, honestly, for any player.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If you want to cut cleric down a bit you can use the Spontaneous Cleric variant on the SRD. You gain spontaneous casting from a limited list, so it is weaker than cleric although easier to pilot. I find in general parties like having clerics.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Copper is a good choice-- at-will Spider Climb is fun, and the skills don't suck. Ditto playing a human. Take ranks in Bluff, Intimidate, and... mmm, you don't get Diplomacy in-class, and the only appropriate way to pick it up (Apprentice feat) has a lot of fluff attached that may not work; but if you get it somehow you can be a passable low-op face.

Combat wise you don't have a lot going for you. Medium BAB without any way to effectively buff your attacks is sad. Power Attack is less fun without full BAB, and you don't get enough bonus damage for TWF to appeal. Entangling Exhalation, obiously, but only every 1d4 rounds is less nice. Hmm... maybe fear-mongering, although the best options (Imperious Command and Dreadful Wrath) aren't on the table.

Overall, I guess Power Attack + Leap Attack, and Entangling Exhalation.

If you're starting at 1, Vigor will be lovely. The skill boosters don't hurt, but they're not very good, either.

[Deadasadoor]

My first "serious" character was a Dragon Shaman, starting from level 1. I felt useless from the start of the campaign. Even in full plate I couldn't "tank" effectively, and with barely any attack bonus, I could barely deal damage as well. The only real utility I had was keeping the party at half health with the vigor aura. If you want to do something along the same line, I third Dragonfire Adept. If you want to do something with auras or generally make your team better, a Bard or Marshal could work as well.

[Draconium]

Honestly, I found Dragonfire Adept both more useful and more fun then I ever found Dragon Shaman. And it's actually a pretty simple class. I would see if you could talk your DM into allowing it.

If you can't, I would still use a different class. Perhaps a Bard, if you want to support your fellow players. Or Marshal, for that matter.

[Troacctid]

Even in full plate I couldn't "tank" effectively, and with barely any attack bonus, I could barely deal damage as well.

And Dragon Shamans aren't proficient with heavy armor, so you don't even get full plate. You'd have 17 AC in chainmail and a shield. That might be tanky for a low-level Wizard, but it's well below average for a frontliner, who should have upwards of 20, eventually climbing into the 30s.


If you can't, I would still use a different class. Perhaps a Bard, if you want to support your fellow players. Or Marshal, for that matter.

Marshal is just as bad as Dragon Shaman if you're taking it as your main class. Bard is good, though.

[Draconium]

Marshal is just as bad as Dragon Shaman if you're taking it as your main class. Bard is good, though.

Honestly, I haven't read through the Marshal class, so I wouldn't know. I just know Dragon Shaman is a weak, unfocused class, and there are far better choices out there.

[ComaVision]

Copper is a good choice-- at-will Spider Climb is fun, and the skills don't suck. Ditto playing a human. Take ranks in Bluff, Intimidate, and... mmm, you don't get Diplomacy in-class, and the only appropriate way to pick it up (Apprentice feat) has a lot of fluff attached that may not work; but if you get it somehow you can be a passable low-op face.


Martial Study (White Raven) is an easier/better way to pick up Diplomacy as a class skill.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, I haven't read through the Marshal class, so I wouldn't know. I just know Dragon Shaman is a weak, unfocused class, and there are far better choices out there.

Well, Marshal is a little better than Dragon Shaman. You get better skill points, better proficiencies, two auras at once, and better bonuses on your auras, so you're not quite as useless. But past level 2, almost every level is dead. There just aren't any class features to level up to. You might as well go Marshal 2/NPC Warrior 18. At least then you'd get full BAB.

[Nifft]

Just want to second Dragonfire Adept + 3rd level feat Draconic Aura (Vigor).

It's a fun class.

[Deadasadoor]

And Dragon Shamans aren't proficient with heavy armor, so you don't even get full plate. You'd have 17 AC in chainmail and a shield. That might be tanky for a low-level Wizard, but it's well below average for a frontliner, who should have upwards of 20, eventually climbing into the 30s.


Heavy AP was taken later on in the campaign, back when I thought that would be a good idea. It was also a gold dragon shaman. Hooray for waterbreathing in a campaign where we spent most of the times in the mountains.

[Eisfalken]

He said he didn't want Dragon Magic. That is the only reason I didn't suggest DFA over Dragon Shaman. To be honest Dragon fire Adept is a fairly simple class. You have a breath weapon (with a few upgrades) and a small smattering on invocations. A wizard made under your guidelines would be far more complicated.

Sorcerer. Only way you can get heritage feats. Wizards also make good gishes, but if you want the dragon-style flavor, it's got to be sorcerer due to the feats you'd be looking to take.

And no, not complicated at all. No more than DFA. Select a few spells, some feats, go. Technically weaker than DFA, but apparently that is totally off the table, so... yeah. Dragon heritage sorcerer build. Here, I'll show you:

Race: Human (add dragonborn, if you want to play it that way, just be aware of what those things are and do)
Level 1: sorcerer - stalwart sorcerer ACF (trade away top-level spell for bonus hp and martial prof), dragonblood sorcerer ACF (trade familiar for Draconic Heritage, +2 on arcana checks); Draconic Claws (more damage than from dragon devotee, plus can claw as swift action when casting), Dragon Wings
Level 2: sorcerer
Level 3: sorcerer - Draconic Breath (preferably acid or electricity, if Draconic Heritage doesn't limit you),
Level 4: sorcerer
Level 5: sorcerer
Level 6: sorcerer - Improved Dragon Wings
Level 7: sorcerer
Level 8: sorcerer
Level 9: sorcerer - Hover
Level 10: dragon devotee
Level 11: dragon devotee - Improved Initiative
Level 12: dragon devotee - Extend Spell
Level 13: dragon devotee
Level 14: dragon devotee - Daunting Presence
Level 15: dragon devotee - Combat Casting (pre-req for abjurant champion)
Level 16: abjurant champion
Level 17: abjurant champion
Level 18: abjurant champion - Persistent Spell
Level 19: abjurant champion
Level 20: abjurant champion

I know, it's far from optimal... but it has it's charms in a low-key game. You end up with an average of 104 hp (before Con bonus), +15 BAB, 8th level spells (though limited to only one known and casting only 3/day, due to stalwart sorcerer ACF), you fly without magic, and you've even got double-duration and all-day spells as needed. Since all these feats are what power your dragon-like abilities, you actually can use polymorph to greater effect, by adding claws and breath weapon to pretty much anything (and yes, the claws will stage up in damage on size if needed). Daunting Presence isn't as good as a true dragon's frightful presence, but it definitely gets the job done against against anything with a bad Will save, even at higher levels, and it doesn't fuss around with any magic to do it. Your spells are basically just to support the rest. Lots of abjuration, transmutation, smidgen of good (mostly defensive) illusion spells here and there, some conjuration for kicks.

There's even some wiggle room for alterations. Swap out Persistent Spell with Versatile Spellcaster if you need more high-level mojo. Or take out both metamagic feats for more combat-oriented ones (especially if Tome of Battle is on the table). If you sack abjurant champion for something with sneak attack bonus, you can take dragon devotee starting at 16th level and use the bonus fighter feats for bonus sneak attack instead, but this drops you down to 6th level spells (though you may want it for some clutch bonus damage). Or pluck out dragon devotee and get a full caster prog to hit that awesome 9th level magic.

Like I said, you may not win a lot of hardcore optimization contests with this, but I rather think it has some charm to it. Versatility in combat, access to arcane stuff (scrolls, wands, staves, etc.), and hey, it's not D&D without a healthy supply of dragon-related material sometimes...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sorcerer. Only way you can get heritage feats. Wizards also make good gishes, but if you want the dragon-style flavor, it's got to be sorcerer due to the feats you'd be looking to take.
I wasn't suggesting wizard. I was pointing out that his DM's desire to keep things simple by restricting DFA is ultimately meaningless when classes like wizard, cleric, and druid exist.


And no, not complicated at all. No more than DFA. Select a few spells, some feats, go.

That is still dramatically more complicated than DFA. DFA is one of the absolute simplest classes in the game; a good one can be made drawing off of its entry in Dragon Magic, the Entangling Exhalation feat from Races of the Dragon, and then nothing but core. Sorcerer requires a good knowledge of spells from multiple sources and can be punishing if you include redundancy or choose poorly on a high level spell. Not to mention sorcerer simply has dramatically more options than DFA, which adds to its complexity.

[Nifft]

I need help making a dragon shaman build with core only (or at least not the dragon magic books as my DM wants to keep it simple). Try to keep it to players handbook 1 and 2 and complete adventurer/race books. Advice on race, weaponry, and especially FEATS would be awesome. I was thinking copper or silver dragon totem and dwarf or human. My ability scores before race mods are as follows:
Strength 14
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 14
If I may suggest, emulate a Dragon Shaman but don't actually play one.

Emulation:

- Dragonborn of Bahamut (from Races of the Dragon), with the Heart racial feature. This gets a breath weapon at level 1, and the breath weapon deals different damage types so you're not stuck with something useless when fighting an Acid Elemental or whatever.

- Take the Entangling Exhalation feat (from Races of the Dragon) at level 1.

- For your class, pick Bard. With your Con (19 after Dragonborn +2 bonus), you can tank a bit. You'll only have proficiency in Light armor and Shields, but that's not entirely awful -- Dragon Shaman only gets up to Medium armor, and Bard gets better weapon proficiencies (specifically: longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip), so you're not actually less of a melee threat than a Dragon Shaman would be.

If you want heavier armor, take one level (or two, but not more) of Fighter. Not your first level, though: you want the Bard's huge number of skill points.

Wearing heavier armor means you'll mostly be using your breath weapon, Swift action and other non-Somatic spells, and melee attacks at higher levels, while using your Inspire Courage to buff yourself and your party.

Good luck out there!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Martial Study (White Raven) is an easier/better way to pick up Diplomacy as a class skill.
Not with the OP's book restrictions, and their GM's desire to keep things simple.

In any case, I second the Bard suggestion. They work particularly well with a low-op group, since the best bard builds tend to buff their allies at least almost as much as themselves. If you do, I recommend the following ACFs:

Bardic Knack (PHB2)-- trade Bardic Knowledge for the ability to use 1/2 level in place of your actual number of skill ranks. Really helps you cover any areas left unattended.
Spellbreaker Song (Complete Mage)-- trade the useless Countersong for the ability to interfere with enemy spellcasters.
Hymn of Fortification (Complete Champion)-- trade the not-very-useful Inspire Competence for the ability to produce a Protection from Evil effect.
Hymn of Healing (CC)-- trade Fascinate (situational) for the ability to make healing spells restore way more health.

And these feats:

Melodic Casting (CM)-- cast while singing, and use Perform instead of Concentration.
Captivating Melody (CM)-- give up one of your copious bardic music uses for a bonus to spell save DC.
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer)-- lets you double up on music, essentially, since your spells last for a while after you stop.

And to pump up your Inspire Courage to useful levels,

Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)-- a cheap item that gives +1 IC a couple times a day.
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium or Complete Adventurer)-- a 1st level spell that gives +1 IC
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) gives another +1, Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) doubles your bonus, and Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) converts it to d6's of damage, but they're not from approved sources.

[Yogibear41]

I've always wanted to play a were-phynxkin dragon shaman and theme it as a were-dragon. But Phynxkin are in the monsters section of Dragon Magic. :smallfrown: Do you have LA buy off available? The metabreath feats from Draconomicon can help out your breath weapon alot if they are available, ability focus from the MM is good for adding to its DC. I like Endurance and Steadfast Determination on a Dragon Shaman as early level feats so you can almost completely negate wisdom and get more out of your Con Score.

[daremetoidareyo]

I looked into your situation.
Dragon shaman could be a better class in a million different ways, but this is what I see.


Copper dragon is the best. Acid is the best energy type on there, and it has decent skills.
spider climb is more useful than the rest of the other lame skills listed for level 3.

Although you can make a case for blue dragon. Ventriloquism, at will, can be quite helpful. Especially if you pump up your bluff skill.

Feats
Evil devotion or protection devotion.

Fiendish codex 2 has the feat dilate aura. Allows you to double the range of your aura for a number of rounds pinned to your charisma bonus.

Tome of magic has widen supernatural ability: double the size of your cone of acid.

Races of the Dragon has entangling exhalation, which is the best thing that this class can take.

Clinging breath from MMIV, it's the only metabreath feat you can get by the sources you listed, awesome to pair with entangling.

Draconic breath from complete arcane + Blue dragon + 1 level of sorcerer= Possible at will conversion of ventriloquism as a spell like ability into a 2d6 breath weapon all day long all the time. There is a whole section about using spell like abilities to qualify for feats, and it appears that you can totally make this happen.

Draconomicon has enlarge breath, adding 50% on the range as well as heighten breath, which adds +1 to the DC per Con bonus. Quicken breath, split breath, and maximize breath are also nice options. If you have access...

Flyby attack + flyby breath (dragonlance campaign) is a pretty good combo, if and when you get flight.

The fey heritage line can be fun.

[Thurbane]

I played a Dragon Shaman in EttRoG, using only core, PHB2 and Draconomicon as sources. I was pretty happy with how my character turned out, mainly using Quicken Breath and Maximize Breath, also using Intimidating strike and a Vicious Morning Star in melee. My Charisma was fairly high, and I had items like Amulet of Retributive Healing and Caduceus Bracers, so I was a semi-decent healer as well.