Things You Never Noticed V: Your Familiar

[TheWombatOfDoom]

This is a thread for posting anything and everything you might have not noticed your first time around, or even consecutive readings in the Order of the Stick Comic series! This could be a small realization like that Belkar has hair on his head and feet, or a huge revelation of some sort. Big or Small, we'd love to hear from you!

Previous Threads:

Things You Never Noticed I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?128211-Things-you-never-noticed)
Things You Never Noticed II: I Never Noticed the First Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203505-Things-you-never-noticed-II-I-never-noticed-the-first-thread)
Things You Never Noticed III: The Search for Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?261108-Things-You-Never-Noticed-III-The-Search-for-Spot)
Things You Never Noticed IV: There's A Comic in the Sidebar? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350251-Things-You-Never-Noticed-IV-There-s-A-Comic-in-the-Sidebar)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It feels good to stretch my legs in a new thread! I never noticed Elan's pun related to Sabine's race, just his complaint about his rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html).

[Cizak]

It feels good to stretch my legs in a new thread! I never noticed Elan's pun related to Sabine's race, just his complaint about his rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html).

...Woooow. I've always thought that was one of the strangest insults/taunts I've ever read. It never occured to me for a second that it was a pun.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Probably because most of Elan's puns aren't that subtle.

[ti'esar]

From that same comic, while I had been aware of that scene before, I never noticed until seeing it linked just now that Elan continues to ineffectually 'poke' Sabine twice more in the fourth panel.

[littlebum2002]

When Tarquin says "Bring my accountant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)", I thought it was a funny way of showing he wasn't entirely proficient in sign language. But now I realize, Kilkil WAS his accountant.

[Keltest]

Speaking of which, I never noticed that Tarquin grabs his whip out of the emergency bag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) on the dinosaur.

[ti'esar]

When Tarquin says "Bring my accountant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)", I thought it was a funny way of showing he wasn't entirely proficient in sign language. But now I realize, Kilkil WAS his accountant.

I thought the joke there was more that Drow Sign Language (which, IIRC, is designed specifically for use in battle) has a way of saying "accountant".

[DataNinja]

I thought the joke there was more that Drow Sign Language (which, IIRC, is designed specifically for use in battle) has a way of saying "accountant".

Not to mention "drinking fountain"... How could Tarquin have made that mistake? Everyone knows Drow only use Expresso Machines... :smalltongue:

[Pyrous]

The first time I read this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) it didn't click that Mobility is a prerequisite to Spring Attack.

...

And right now I am wondering if Tarquin's seed had Dodge, DEX 13+, and BAB 4+.

[DataNinja]

The first time I read this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) it didn't click that Mobility is a prerequisite to Spring Attack.

...

And right now I am wondering if Tarquin's seed had Dodge, DEX 13+, and BAB 4+.

On that same page I never noticed the third panel swinganamiss...

[Durkoala]

I got to suggest a strip name!:smallbiggrin:

And just in time. When I read #935 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) for the first time (and the second, and the third...), I missed that Vaarsuvius would have got the buffs from Elan's song as unlike Laurin and Tarquin, V isn't trying to murder anybody.

EDIT: Oh, and in #936 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html) you can see that Tarquin's fingers are indeed slipping: they've got little motion lines around them!

[ThinkMinty]

The words "fascist" and "fascism" are frequently spelled without the s in various strips.

[Peelee]

Not to mention "drinking fountain"... How could Tarquin have made that mistake? Everyone knows Drow only use Expresso Machines... :smalltongue:

Espresso. From the Italian caffè espresso, meaning "pressed coffee."

[DataNinja]

Espresso. From the Italian caffè espresso, meaning "pressed coffee."

Gah! I know that... *goes to beat up whoever Added it to Dictionary on his computer*

I always forget without the wavy red line underneath it, though...

[Peelee]

Gah! I know that... *goes to beat up whoever Added it to Dictionary on his computer*

I always forget without the wavy red line underneath it, though...

So you would say you.... never noticed the misspelling? :trollface:
I know it won't work, but worth a shot.

[littlebum2002]

Gah! I know that... *goes to beat up whoever Added it to Dictionary on his computer*

I always forget without the wavy red line underneath it, though...

When you find them, change the autocorrect options on their computer to automatically change their name to "Captain Underpants"

[OmnivorousOgre]

Apart from #1008, the short legs thing was also mentioned in #453. Also Roy and Belkar seem to react similarly at least in one type of situation (#234 and #926) :smallbiggrin:

[nbLurkerAbove]

One thing I noticed a while ago is that when Laurin teleports in 931 panel 6, she reappears in the background of the same panel.

[Draconium]

In the last panel of strip 739 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), I just noticed the activity feed of Kotor, Paladin of Marduk went from "Smacking dragons, yo" to joining the group "Need a Rez." This is why you don't update your status in the middle of a battle. :smalltongue:
(Forgive me if that was pointed out before, but I haven't followed these threads for very long.)

[Red Bear]

Espresso. From the Italian caffè espresso, meaning "pressed coffee."

Wow, I am Italian and I didn't know that... apparently you are right, but espresso also kinda conveys the meaning of something being made "at the moment, quickly and just for you" and that can't be a coincidence...

[Quild]

In the last panel of strip 739 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), I just noticed the activity feed of Kotor, Paladin of Marduk went from "Smacking dragons, yo" to joining the group "Need a Rez." This is why you don't update your status in the middle of a battle. :smalltongue:
(Forgive me if that was pointed out before, but I haven't followed these threads for very long.)

I'm quite sure someone linked it not long ago.
I think that what's you are suppose to understand is that since Kotor updated his location Nyr-Azul was able to go there and avenge/help the dragons. 'cause he's a priest of Tiamat.

[Darth Paul]

I'm quite sure someone linked it not long ago.
I think that what's you are suppose to understand is that since Kotor updated his location Nyr-Azul was able to go there and avenge/help the dragons. 'cause he's a priest of Tiamat.

I always just took it that Kotor smacked some dragons (yo) until he met one that smacked him back... much, much harder.

[ScaldnCoffeeCup]

I wonder how many times this has been posted (or none if it was always obvious to everyone else) but whilst rereading issue #66 I realised I never noticed that when Elan is casting the illusion to distract Thog, and he says "Yeah. I mean, it was that, or a litter of puppies, and I doubt a rampaging barbarian would have stopped for [I]that!" that unbeknownst to Elan, Thog had spent the entirety of issue 51 talking about puppies and it would have indeed been the perfect illusion to stop him.

[Wildroses]

For me it was comic 532, when Roy wonders what was so important to Dorukan that he left a big gaping hole in his Cloister uber spell allowing summoning, and the final panel is Dorukan summoning a pretty blond lady having correctly set up all the romantic cliches of seduction (mood music, wine, rose petals on the bed).

My first reading I assumed Dorukan was just a horny old bastard and the woman some random floozy. But after my re-read, prompted by getting the prequel volumes, made me realise how hideously wrong I was. That was Lirian, the love of his life. After reading Start of Darkness, you could make a case for Lirian and Dorukan having the strongest emotional romantic relationship in the whole OotS world.

[littlebum2002]

I always just took it that Kotor smacked some dragons (yo) until he met one that smacked him back... much, much harder.

I agree with Quild...the fact that two priests of rival deities updated their locations at the same time and right before one of them died isn't a coincidence.

[Quebbster]

For me it was comic 532, when Roy wonders what was so important to Dorukan that he left a big gaping hole in his Cloister uber spell allowing summoning, and the final panel is Dorukan summoning a pretty blond lady having correctly set up all the romantic cliches of seduction (mood music, wine, rose petals on the bed).

My first reading I assumed Dorukan was just a horny old bastard and the woman some random floozy. But after my re-read, prompted by getting the prequel volumes, made me realise how hideously wrong I was. That was Lirian, the love of his life. After reading Start of Darkness, you could make a case for Lirian and Dorukan having the strongest emotional romantic relationship in the whole OotS world.

Yeah, I had a similar experience.
Obviously the joke works even without realizing it's Lirian, so it's an extra layer for those who have read SoD...

[ti'esar]

Not from the comic itself, but I only just now spotted Mr. Scruffy as a tribble in the Stick Trek wallpaper. (https://s3.amazonaws.com/GiantInThePlayground_Wallpapers/StickTrek_800x600.png)

[Grey Watcher]

I only just spotted today that Tsukiko's slippers match her eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

[theasl]

For me it was comic 532, when Roy wonders what was so important to Dorukan that he left a big gaping hole in his Cloister uber spell allowing summoning, and the final panel is Dorukan summoning a pretty blond lady having correctly set up all the romantic cliches of seduction (mood music, wine, rose petals on the bed).

My first reading I assumed Dorukan was just a horny old bastard and the woman some random floozy. But after my re-read, prompted by getting the prequel volumes, made me realise how hideously wrong I was. That was Lirian, the love of his life. After reading Start of Darkness, you could make a case for Lirian and Dorukan having the strongest emotional romantic relationship in the whole OotS world.

Huh, I noticed that it was Lirian immediately even without reading the prequel stories. :smallconfused:

[Vinyadan]

At the end of this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), you can actually see Elan place his hand behind his back to pull his rapier out of... uhm... let's say "nowhere". :smallbiggrin:

[Bestigle]

I never realized that Haley's bluff potion was a Philter of Glibness. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)

[Peelee]

At the end of this page (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), you can actually see Elan place his hand behind his back to pull his rapier out of... uhm... let's say "nowhere". :smallbiggrin:

Check yourself before you wreck yourself!

In this case, "yourself" refers to your link. Double http'd it.
Ali G indahouse, diggity!

[ti'esar]

I actually noticed this a long time ago, but I thought I'd mention it here because it's kind of interesting: despite what I assumed on my first reading, the guy commanding the EoB forces that helped conquer the Free City of Doom isn't Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html). In addition to the fact that T doesn't seem to have had time to leave the city, the commander has no cape and a less spiky helmet. Which is a little amusing to me, because it implies that even when being just another general on paper, Tarquin's ego still insists on him having more elaborate armor then everyone else.

[Vinyadan]

Check yourself before you wreck yourself!

In this case, "yourself" refers to your link. Double http'd it.
Ali G indahouse, diggity!

Thank you, I edited it.

[M.A.D]

Everyone probably noticed already, but in Strip #0939 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html), Belkar said "Everything we hold dear" while talking about Durkon, implying that he now holds Durkon dear. Though in the next sentence, he also referred to Durkon as a mockery.


I actually noticed this a long time ago, but I thought I'd mention it here because it's kind of interesting: despite what I assumed on my first reading, the guy commanding the EoB forces that helped conquer the Free City of Doom isn't Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html). In addition to the fact that T doesn't seem to have had time to leave the city, the commander has no cape and a less spiky helmet. Which is a little amusing to me, because it implies that even when being just another general on paper, Tarquin's ego still insists on him having more elaborate armor then everyone else.

Huh, I didn't think anyone would make the assumption that Tarquin would be personally going out to conquer the FCoD in the first place. Leading the charge of a measly 500 dragoons afield seems to be more of a sub-commander's job, comparing to his position as General of the whole army and hidden power behind the throne. It's not even an attack against whole country, merely a single independent city. And considering that he's the one with the big statue, of course his armor has to be more fancy than a lackey's. Also, Tarquin said so himself that he'd "send" the soldiers, not "lead" them, and he in fact spent that entire morning with Elan, watching the parades.

[Peelee]

Granted, it just came out not to long ago, but I just noticed the battle damage in the back of Roy's armor. Looks like it's got two large gashes in it. That's impressive on the vampire's part.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Granted, it just came out not to long ago, but I just noticed the battle damage in the back of Roy's armor. Looks like it's got two large gashes in it. That's impressive on the vampire's part.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1008.html

You mean in this strip? That's where his sword goes.

[Peelee]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1008.html

You mean in this strip? That's where his sword goes.

I meant 1010, actually. And crap. Coloration combined with my colorblindness made it seem like slash marks through the armor.

[Bestigle]

Another thing I recently noticed was that Haley said that Crystal said they could borrow her knife when they got back from fighting golems. Oddly fitting, considering Crystal's fate.

[Vinyadan]

About the dragoons lead by not-Tarquin: I had never noticed the EoB officer before.

[littlebum2002]

In 781 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), V ALMOST calls Belkar "a friend", before correcting themself.

[Syekate]

It may have been said previously, but I love how the phylactory goes "bingk" off of Wrong-Eye's newly wrong eye on the statue in #660 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html). Nice touch of reference and foreshadowing.

[ChristianSt]

In 781 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), V ALMOST calls Belkar "a friend", before correcting themself.

How do you know V wanted to say "a friend" and not for example "a psychopathic hafling"? :smallconfused:

[Gift Jeraff]

In 781 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), V ALMOST calls Belkar "a friend", before correcting themself.

I just noticed Haley is doing a :smallannoyed: face to V and Belkar.

[Vinyadan]

The king of Nowhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html) is black and wears blue, which must have had an effect on the inn personnel jumping to conclusions.

[Peelee]

The king of Nowhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html) is black and wears blue, which must have had an effect on the inn personnel jumping to conclusions.

Also bald.

[Mordae]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html), Daigo and Lien are physically restraining Durkon--by the beard.

[nospacebar14]

I just noticed that the dwarf was also the only one to die in the original party (the party that built the gates) (well, before they parted ways, at least).

Strip 276, I think. RIP Kraagor.

[Peelee]

I just noticed that the dwarf was also the only one to die in the original party (the party that built the gates) (well, before they parted ways, at least).

Strip 276, I think. RIP Kraagor.

Also? I assume you mean as a parallel to the Order of the Stick?

Durkon wasn't the only one to die in the Order, though. Roy also died.

[Vinyadan]

I realized that Redcloack might have been right in panel 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html).

Which means that Gobbotopia may be on rather unstable footing.

[nospacebar14]

Durkon wasn't the only one to die in the Order, though. Roy also died.

Good point. Which makes me wonder -- why didn't they bring back Kraagor? Did he get sucked into the rift?

[toapat]

I thought the joke there was more that Drow Sign Language (which, IIRC, is designed specifically for use in battle) has a way of saying "accountant".

Or how about the fact that a subteranean race which has purple/navy/slate/black skin has a Sign (visual) Language


Huh, I noticed that it was Lirian immediately even without reading the prequel stories. :smallconfused:

Took me about 4 passes of the entire comic so far to realize its Lirian. But not because i was looking to see who Dorukan was wining/dining


Everyone probably noticed already, but in Strip #0939 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html), Belkar said "Everything we hold dear" while talking about Durkon, implying that he now holds Durkon dear. Though in the next sentence, he also referred to Durkon as a mockery.

A few strips later we see that Belkar wants his ultimate fate to be that he dies having done enough good to earn entry into the CG afterlife where he can serve Shojo and Scruffy, which may itself be a callback to his lemming Wisdom score being whats keeping him CE not CG

[Kish]

When drow sign language was invented, they had "infravision" instead of darkvision; if they weren't in a lighted area, they would see other drow as glowing red.

[Vinyadan]

Only here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) did I notice that Myron and Laurin still are wearing the right colours for the empires they work with.

[Quild]

Good point. Which makes me wonder -- why didn't they bring back Kraagor? Did he get sucked into the rift?

I suppose Kraagor wasn't raised for the same reason than Mijung wasn't.
I've always thought that the Snarl does not just kill but destroys the soul itself. Can't find where it is said though.

[hroþila]

I suppose Kraagor wasn't raised for the same reason than Mijung wasn't.
I've always thought that the Snarl does not just kill but destroys the soul itself. Can't find where it is said though.
SoD, when Redcloak explains to Right Eye that their fate, in case the Plan fails and the Snarl gets out, would be worse than death.

[Vinyadan]

I suppose Kraagor wasn't raised for the same reason than Mijung wasn't.
I've always thought that the Snarl does not just kill but destroys the soul itself. Can't find where it is said though.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html :
"Don't their lives - their very souls - mean anything to you?"

[hroþila]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html :
"Don't their lives - their very souls - mean anything to you?"
545 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) is more explicit: "If the Snarl escapes its prison uncontrolled, it won't merely kill us. It will unmake us, dissolving our existence. There will be no Afterlife for us, punitive or otherwise, just nothingness".

[Vinyadan]

I just realized that at least one high priest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html) considers Roy to be part of the Church of Hel.

[Kish]

And he is. He's the bodyguard of the High Priest of Hel, officially. It's the strongest religious tie he has.

[SirKazum]

I just realized that at least one high priest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html) considers Roy to be part of the Church of Hel.

That is, in fact, the only reason why he's allowed to beat up Durkula on Godsmoot grounds. Because they're (officially) in the same church.

[EMCQ]

I only just realised roy is talking about his father and his brother in strip #944. Propably.

[ti'esar]

I actually specifically discussed these guys in the Character Appearances thread, but I never noticed this before: two of the people involved in the "brunchroom brawl" with Roy and Belkar are a human and lizardfolk Empire of Blood soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html). But when we first see the room in 728 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0728.html), the lizardfolk the human soldier is sitting with is not an EoB soldier, but rather what appears to be a palette swap of one of the "frat brother adventurers" from comic 710. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html) Looks like an art mistake, and not one that was corrected in the print edition either, since that's where I first noticed it.

[goodpeople25]

I actually specifically discussed these guys in the Character Appearances thread, but I never noticed this before: two of the people involved in the "brunchroom brawl" with Roy and Belkar are a human and lizardfolk Empire of Blood soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html). But when we first see the room in 728 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0728.html), the lizardfolk the human soldier is sitting with is not an EoB soldier, but rather what appears to be a palette swap of one of the "frat brother adventurers" from comic 710. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html) Looks like an art mistake, and not one that was corrected in the print edition either, since that's where I first noticed it.it is likely it is just an Art mistake/oversight but that lizard folk was not in panel for #729 and you also don't see the whole table in #728 so i think it's possible that the 728 lizard folk is a different one from the 730 on one. Maybe he went outside for something so he wasn't there, that might even be the reason the fuzz knew there was a brawl, but this is major reaching i know. Probably just something that slip pasted.

[Rodin]

it is likely it is just an Art mistake/oversight but that lizard folk was not in panel for #729 and you also don't see the whole table in #728 so i think it's possible that the 728 lizard folk is a different one from the 730 on one. Maybe he went outside for something so he wasn't there, that might even be the reason the fuzz knew there was a brawl, but this is major reaching i know. Probably just something that slip pasted.

Actually, if you look in 730 you can see the lizardfolk getting hit in the face by a drink...and he doesn't have his helmet on. He actually puts the helmet on before going into the brawl.

His shirt does change color between the two strips though.

[Grey Watcher]

Actually, if you look in 730 you can see the lizardfolk getting hit in the face by a drink...and he doesn't have his helmet on. He actually puts the helmet on before going into the brawl.

His shirt does change color between the two strips though.

That's how I read it, yes. It looks like it's a coloring error in that one panel (and possibly missing shoulderpad spikes, hard to tell at this magnification).

[AGD]

I just noticed the double meaning of the title. At first, I thought it was just meant in general, because people don't notice their familiar, but now I noticed, that it directly adresses Vaarsuvius, because V is often called V and V never noticed Vs Familiar.

[Mordae]

I just noticed the double meaning of the title. At first, I thought it was just meant in general, because people don't notice their familiar, but now I noticed, that it directly adresses Vaarsuvius, because V is often called V and V never noticed Vs Familiar.

Take a bow, Durkoala!

[Peelee]

I just noticed the double meaning of the title. At first, I thought it was just meant in general, because people don't notice their familiar, but now I noticed, that it directly adresses Vaarsuvius, because V is often called V and V never noticed Vs Familiar.

Ya know, I didn't get the joke in-comic until I read about it in the book commentary. I dunno if it's because I didn't play D&D until I was in my early twenties, or because my first familiar was a pseudodragon I paid a feat for, or if I just play differently than most others but I knew exactly where that familiar was and what he was doing all the damn time. Always made sure to get his actions in on every battle, and roleplayed the hell out of him too, I think.

[Keltest]

Ya know, I didn't get the joke in-comic until I read about it in the book commentary. I dunno if it's because I didn't play D&D until I was in my early twenties, or because my first familiar was a pseudodragon I paid a feat for, or if I just play differently than most others but I knew exactly where that familiar was and what he was doing all the damn time. Always made sure to get his actions in on every battle, and roleplayed the hell out of him too, I think.

My party was the same way. Oddly enough, it was also a pseudodragon. That may have had something to do with it though, because a raven has significantly less obvious utility beyond the scope of the statistical benefits it grants than a Pseudodragon.

They named it Roger.

[littlebum2002]

Ya know, I didn't get the joke in-comic until I read about it in the book commentary. I dunno if it's because I didn't play D&D until I was in my early twenties, or because my first familiar was a pseudodragon I paid a feat for, or if I just play differently than most others but I knew exactly where that familiar was and what he was doing all the damn time. Always made sure to get his actions in on every battle, and roleplayed the hell out of him too, I think.

I don't play wizards too often (I prefer to play melee or gish characters or, if I have to be a caster, a spontaneous caster). However, once I had a character concept in which ONLY a wizard fit her concept, so I played my first and only wizard (a gnome illusionist, of course).

She literally had a pocket sewn into her cloak where her familiar sat until I needed/remembered it, then viola! Pulled it out, used it, then promptly forgot about it again.

So yeah I totally got the joke.

[Vinyadan]

That is, in fact, the only reason why he's allowed to beat up Durkula on Godsmoot grounds. Because they're (officially) in the same church.

When things are cleared up, it will speak very ill for outsourcing of security at clerical congresses. :smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

That's how I read it, yes. It looks like it's a coloring error in that one panel (and possibly missing shoulderpad spikes, hard to tell at this magnification).

It's definitely a different armor design, not just a wrong color.

[Keltest]

It's definitely a different armor design, not just a wrong color.

Perhaps he just puts on his official armor over whatever sort of under padding he is currently wearing between strips?

[Mordae]

Never noticed that when Sabine is playtesting the grappling rules with Elan's tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html), she has both legs and her tail wrapped around him. Elan is really good at what he does.

[Quild]

It seems that Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) (Disrupting Weapon) is an important part of Roy's plan to defeat Xykon. However Durkon needs to be level 9 to cast that and reached level 9 in page 12.

Means that the Order had planned to earn some xp in the dungeon before facing Xykon!

I've always been surprised that they don't use the spell again when Roy gets his second fight against Xykon. Did they figure that Xykon can't miss the will save? Can't he?

[ti'esar]

Perhaps they thought the starmetal in the sword superseded the need for it?

[Quebbster]

It seems that Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) (Disrupting Weapon) is an important part of Roy's plan to defeat Xykon. However Durkon needs to be level 9 to cast that and reached level 9 in page 12.

Means that the Order had planned to earn some xp in the dungeon before facing Xykon!
I vaguely recall them coming up with the Disruption plan at some point in the Dungeon of Dorukan, likely after Durkon had leveled up. Can't give an exact strip though.

I've always been surprised that they don't use the spell again when Roy gets his second fight against Xykon. Did they figure that Xykon can't miss the will save? Can't he?
I don't know what the duration of Disruption is, but they didn't expect to face Xykon as soon as they did. After all, until Haley saw through the decoy bluff they were expecting to have to go out and face him on the battlefield... then he was right above their heads, literally.

[littlebum2002]

It seems that Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) (Disrupting Weapon) is an important part of Roy's plan to defeat Xykon. However Durkon needs to be level 9 to cast that and reached level 9 in page 12.

Means that the Order had planned to earn some xp in the dungeon before facing Xykon!

I've always been surprised that they don't use the spell again when Roy gets his second fight against Xykon. Did they figure that Xykon can't miss the will save? Can't he?

You're right, he can't. He doesn't even need to make a save, since his HP is higher than DUrkon's caster level. It fails automatically.

There has been a lot of speculation that Rich didn't originally intend for Xykon to be epic level, and both the fact that he was easily defeated and that they expected Disrupting Weapon to work are used to support this theory




I vaguely recall them coming up with the Disruption plan at some point in the Dungeon of Dorukan, likely after Durkon had leveled up. Can't give an exact strip though.

Good memory! It was in Strip 94 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html)

[Quebbster]

Crystal's hand goes straight through Bozzok's chest in her first attack. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0980.html)
No wonder he had Xed eyes after that.

[goodpeople25]

You're right, he can't. He doesn't even need to make a save, since his HP is higher than DUrkon's caster level. It fails automatically.

There has been a lot of speculation that Rich didn't originally intend for Xykon to be epic level, and both the fact that he was easily defeated and that they expected Disrupting Weapon to work are used to support this theory
I'm not the best at the underlying rules of D&D but wouldn't Xykon need to be at least level 11 in order to be a Lich? Or would a caster level rasing item work for Lichdom requirements? And then wouldn't durkon need to raise his caster level for it to work? Or am i way off?

[ti'esar]

Epic level is 21 and higher. Xykon could easily be a lich without being epic.

[SirKazum]

But it would still be pointless to try Disrupting Weapon on a lich if the cleric's level is 9, since liches have at least 11 HD... isn't that the point?

[Peelee]

Durkon and Roy clearly failed their knowledge rolls on lich info.

[Vinyadan]

Well, Durky's Knowledge: Religion wasn't that good back then.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It isn't that good now.

[goodpeople25]

But it would still be pointless to try Disrupting Weapon on a lich if the cleric's level is 9, since liches have at least 11 HD... isn't that the point?
Yeah that was my point not that xykon was epic at that point but that distruping weapon still wouldn't have worked due to the min level you need to be a lich. And i was just asking if my understanding was correct.

[Rodin]

Of course, Durkon and Roy's lack of knowledge about Liches doesn't excuse the fact that Xykon appeared to think it was a threat.

Then again, maybe Xykon just decided to troll Roy by breaking his weapon, even though it wouldn't have been able to harm him anyway. It'd certainly be in character.

[Syldar]

Of course, Durkon and Roy's lack of knowledge about Liches doesn't excuse the fact that Xykon appeared to think it was a threat.

Then again, maybe Xykon just decided to troll Roy by breaking his weapon, even though it wouldn't have been able to harm him anyway. It'd certainly be in character.

:xykon:"Hm... this guy has a sword with a spell on it that he thinks will destroy me. I know it can't actually do that, but it'll be funny to break it just to mess with him."

[StLordeth]

Just to clarify, they were Level 9 at the start of Book 1? I was always a bit curious.

[littlebum2002]

Of course, Durkon and Roy's lack of knowledge about Liches doesn't excuse the fact that Xykon appeared to think it was a threat.

Then again, maybe Xykon just decided to troll Roy by breaking his weapon, even though it wouldn't have been able to harm him anyway. It'd certainly be in character.


:xykon:"Hm... this guy has a sword with a spell on it that he thinks will destroy me. I know it can't actually do that, but it'll be funny to break it just to mess with him."

There was no way for Xykon to know what Durkon's level was when they were fighting. Even if he did know, the spell could have been cast from a scroll with a higher caster level. So for all he knew, the weapon was a legitimate threat.


Just to clarify, they were Level 9 at the start of Book 1? I was always a bit curious.

There is a thread with all the relevant information on it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended)

[Vinyadan]

Just to clarify, they were Level 9 at the start of Book 1? I was always a bit curious.

This is what the Giant said back then. http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a

[StLordeth]

There is a thread with all the relevant information on it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended) I glanced through that many times before, it only shows current level I thought?


This is what the Giant said back then. http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a Hey thanks for the info! That's cool, funny how low level they were compared to Xykon at that point.

[littlebum2002]

I glanced through that many times before, it only shows current level I thought?

Hey thanks for the info! That's cool, funny how low level they were compared to Xykon at that point.

That thread is not very well laid out. The information you are seeking is under the "Frequently asked questions" spoiler in the first thread.

[ArkenBrony]

I remember tracking it based on spells and stuff and always thought I saw a steady progression starting at 6, it's been a while, but I'd always thought that

[ScHClutter]

In strip 212 (I'd link it, but I'm just a pixie), Haley says that Roy just wanted to "bump uglies with the paladin," which Miko corrects by saying, "the proper term is 'smite evil', not 'bump uglies'." I always assumed Miko was saying that the proper inuendo that paladins use is smite evil, until my last readthrough where it occurred to me that Miko probably didn't even realize Haley was using inuendo, and she was probably just saying that the name of the ability is Smite Evil, not Bump Uglies.

[rodneyAnonymous]

That is how I read it, too. She just didn't get it.

[Quebbster]

In strip 212 (I'd link it, but I'm just a pixie), Haley says that Roy just wanted to "bump uglies with the paladin," which Miko corrects by saying, "the proper term is 'smite evil', not 'bump uglies'." I always assumed Miko was saying that the proper inuendo that paladins use is smite evil, until my last readthrough where it occurred to me that Miko probably didn't even realize Haley was using inuendo, and she was probably just saying that the name of the ability is Smite Evil, not Bump Uglies.

Yeah, "you want to Smite Evil?" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
That comment made me LOL the first time I read it by the way.

[Quebbster]

I hadn't noticed Tsukiko sleeps with a Xykon plushie. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) Thanks, trivia thread!

[littlebum2002]

I hadn't noticed Tsukiko sleeps with a Xykon plushie. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) Thanks, trivia thread!

I was on my way in here to say the same thing.

[War-Wren]

I hadn't noticed Tsukiko sleeps with a Xykon plushie. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) Thanks, trivia thread!


I was on my way in here to say the same thing.

Same! :smallbiggrin:

[Quebbster]

Great minds think alike. :)

[Ron Miel]

In strip 212 (I'd link it, but I'm just a pixie), Haley says that Roy just wanted to "bump uglies with the paladin," which Miko corrects by saying, "the proper term is 'smite evil', not 'bump uglies'." I always assumed Miko was saying that the proper inuendo that paladins use is smite evil, until my last readthrough where it occurred to me that Miko probably didn't even realize Haley was using inuendo, and she was probably just saying that the name of the ability is Smite Evil, not Bump Uglies.


That is how I read it, too. She just didn't get it.


Actually, I think Miko is pulling their legs a bit. She understands fine, but is kidding them.

See strip #250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

Miko: Perhaps in the future, if you approached the prospect of a romantic relationship from this more mature perspective, I would not be so dismissive of the possibility.

She has been aware of Roy's attraction, but has dismissed it.

[Quebbster]

Actually, I think Miko is pulling their legs a bit. She understands fine, but is kidding them.

See strip #250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

Miko: Perhaps in the future, if you approached the prospect of a romantic relationship from this more mature perspective, I would not be so dismissive of the possibility.

She has been aware of Roy's attraction, but has dismissed it.
One does not necessarily preclude the other. She might be aware of Roy's attraction without understanding what "bump uglies" means.
Heck, it might not even be a common euphemism in Azure City, it might be a term primarily used among Northerners.

[Peelee]

Actually, I think Miko is pulling their legs a bit. She understands fine, but is kidding them.

See strip #250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

Miko: Perhaps in the future, if you approached the prospect of a romantic relationship from this more mature perspective, I would not be so dismissive of the possibility.

She has been aware of Roy's attraction, but has dismissed it.

Or she just became aware, like, 3 strips panels before.

"Yes, I was physically attracted to you, but that didn't give me the right to make you uncomfortable with my crude attempts at passes."

[littlebum2002]

Actually, I think Miko is pulling their legs a bit. She understands fine, but is kidding them.

See strip #250 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

Miko: Perhaps in the future, if you approached the prospect of a romantic relationship from this more mature perspective, I would not be so dismissive of the possibility.

She has been aware of Roy's attraction, but has dismissed it.

Dude, Roy literally tells her 3 panels before that sentence that he's attracted to her.


EDIT: NINJA'D

[Peelee]

Hmmm. I never noticed that the Gibson/Epiphone SG has one of the devil horn cutaways larger than the other. I always thought it was perfectly symmetrical. This is really bothering me.

Yes, I know this is not about the comic at all. But this is really bothering me.

[Ron Miel]

Dude, Roy literally tells her 3 panels before that sentence that he's attracted to her.


EDIT: NINJA'D



" I would not be so dismissive of the possibility"


This pretty much states outright that she already knew, and had dismissed it previously.

[Peelee]

" I would not be so dismissive of the possibility"


This pretty much states outright that she already knew, and had dismissed it previously.

True. Though Roy had also previously mentioned, at the very least, a little candlelit affair, just the two of them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html), which was immediately rebuffed. She could still have easily misunderstood the "bump uglies" idiom, expecially since she was very direct in shooting Roy down.

[littlebum2002]

Also remember that Miko didn't even understand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html)what the slang "hot" means. I think that's entirely the joke, she's so square she doesn't even understand the most basic slang.

[Kantaki]

In comic 928 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) Laurin's attack hits everyone else present, the Order as well as Tarquin. The latter is (or seems) just unaffected by it.

[Vinyadan]

In comic 928 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) Laurin's attack hits everyone else present, the Order as well as Tarquin. The latter is (or seems) just unaffected by it.

I just noticed the attack seems to jump from a target to the other: Roy-Tarquin-Dorkula.

[Pyrous]

I just noticed the attack seems to jump from a target to the other: Roy-Tarquin-Dorkula.

And V-Blackwing, Elan-Mr.Scruffy

[ScHClutter]

I just noticed a kinda gross little detail in strip 612 (once again, sorry for the lack of linkage). In the last panel, there are some fairly descriptive sound effects for some brutality going on off-screen. The main one that stands out to me being the small "squelch" at the end. I never realized that the Priest of Loki went through completely with his "Brainy Pete" quip.
Also, I never realized that posting about Miko is still a big no-no and will generate discussion. Blunders of a pixie, I guess. Some things just never change in the playground.

[Ron Miel]

Nothing wrong with posting about Miko. Nothing wrong with generating discussion, either.

[mythmonster2]

Comics 770 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html), 774 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), and 779 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)all hint at Geoff being a mole for Bozzok. Ian always managing to get caught, Geoff choosing to stay behind, and him asking about Bozzok, respectively. Also, Zz'dtri in disguise throwing a dirty look at V in 775 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html).

(These have all probably been pointed out before, but I'm doing my first reread and haven't been in this thread before.)

[Ornithologist]

Comics 770 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html), 774 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), and 779 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)all hint at Geoff being a mole for Bozzok. Ian always managing to get caught, Geoff choosing to stay behind, and him asking about Bozzok, respectively. Also, Zz'dtri in disguise throwing a dirty look at V in 775 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html).

(These have all probably been pointed out before, but I'm doing my first reread and haven't been in this thread before.)

The main point of the thread is to post things you haven't noticed before. So technically, you never noticed them the first time they were probably pointed out.:smalltongue:

[Talion]

I'm going through another read through of the comic and I just now noticed that the pole arm store cat brings over a dead bird and leaves it by Roy's foot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html)

[Quebbster]

I'm going through another read through of the comic and I just now noticed that the pole arm store cat brings over a dead bird and leaves it by Roy's foot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html)

Not just any bird... A parrot.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The snake is probably a python.

[Quebbster]

The snake is probably a python.

It's probably named Monty.

[Vinyadan]

After reading OotPCs, Elan's words in panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html)are much funnier. :smallbiggrin:

[Quild]

More a language thing, but...
When holy wafers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html) were mentionned, I was kind of surprised by this choice. Why holy wafers? Because gnomes would use that rather than holy water? That's cute. Weird, but cute.

I just realized that "holy wafer" are the same than "hostia". The only French term that I know being "hostie", I did not expect that there were other terms in English than hostia.

Somehow, it was funnier before :(

[Vinyadan]

More a language thing, but...
When holy wafers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html) were mentionned, I was kind of surprised by this choice. Why holy wafers? Because gnomes would use that rather than holy water? That's cute. Weird, but cute.

I just realized that "holy wafer" are the same than "hostia". The only French term that I know being "hostie", I did not expect that there were other terms in English than hostia.

Somehow, it was funnier before :(

Same here, and I kinda wonder if fluff for holy wafers outside combat situations in a D&D setting is ever explained in a manual.

[War-Wren]

Am also doing a read through from the start, and this is not so much 'didn't notice' as 'curious as to what it is' because I have no idea!
So, in the words of Cat, from Red Dwarf, and in the third panel... 'What is it?' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html)

[Vinyadan]

Am also doing a read through from the start, and this is not so much 'didn't notice' as 'curious as to what it is' because I have no idea!
So, in the words of Cat, from Red Dwarf, and in the third panel... 'What is it?' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html)

It's a Wolf in sheep's clothing, aka carnivorous tree stump dressed like a cute rabbit. It made it as #3 in the "Stupid Monster" list (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm).

[War-Wren]

It's a Wolf in sheep's clothing, aka carnivorous tree stump dressed like a cute rabbit. It made it as #3 in the "Stupid Monster" list (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm).

Ha! Brilliant :smallsmile: Thanks!

EDIT (cos I found something else!): In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Hilgya 'tricks' Durkon into holding her hand... but in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html) they're already holding hands!

[Rogar Demonblud]

You can also find the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing in the avatar list for the board. :smallwink:

[Forbiddenwar]

Oh my. Crystal clearly says Haley can borrow her dagger.
Haley "borrows" it to kill her with it, but then returns it when they meet again. Then the dagger breaks, perhaps symbolic of the end of bozzak and crystal.

Deep.

[Vinyadan]

I just remembered that we got to know Surtur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)a few books before his priest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

[Grey Watcher]

I just remembered that we got to know Surtur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)a few books before his priest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

Man, I'd love to see Surtur in the current art style.

On topic, I was re-reading On the Origin of PC's the other day and noticed, for the first time, that one of the patrons of the Bad Guy Bar that Elan and his then-employer Sir Francois are forced to retreat from bears a striking resemblance to the (on-again-off-again) Bandit King (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html). Is it, in fact, meant to be him?

[SirKazum]

Man, I'd love to see Surtur in the current art style.

On topic, I was re-reading On the Origin of PC's the other day and noticed, for the first time, that one of the patrons of the Bad Guy Bar that Elan and his then-employer Sir Francois are forced to retreat from bears a striking resemblance to the (on-again-off-again) Bandit King (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html). Is it, in fact, meant to be him?

Given the amount of shout-outs in the book (such as the Greysky Thieves' Guild members running the hotel), I'd say there's a significant chance.

[ti'esar]

So is "Durkon's" new minion named Gontor Hammerfell or Hammerfall? I've just realized it's been spelled both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) ways. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

Poor minor characters.

[Vinyadan]

So is "Durkon's" new minion named Gontor Hammerfell or Hammerfall? I've just realized it's been spelled both (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) ways. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

Poor minor characters.

It depends: if he likes video games it's Hammerfell, if he'd rather listen to some music it's Hammerfall.

EDIT: It also could be an accent/dialect thing. Gontor talks like a human, while the other usher has a dwarven accent. My surname has different vowels when said with my accent or in the standard spelling. Hammerfell could be spelled Hammerfall by other dwarves.

Also, I just noticed that the last pages answer the great question: "Where was Gontor...? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWMgk6gE2Q)"

[MReav]

The triceratops is missing a horn in the second panel of 927. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html)

[Darth Paul]

Same here, and I kinda wonder if fluff for holy wafers outside combat situations in a D&D setting is ever explained in a manual.

I don't know if it's in any of the manuals, but I've read of a very old Eastern European tradition that stuffing holy wafers into a vampire's mouth and beheading it (after staking through the heart) was a necessary part of killing them. Just staking wasn't considered enough to kill the vampire 100% dead in some versions of the lore.

And in Bram Stoker's novel, holy wafers are said to repel the undead and are used to keep vampires away from the coffins of the newly dead. According to this link (http://49thshelf.com/Blog/2013/10/31/How-to-Kill-a-Vampire-Crucifixes-Holy-Water-and-Other-Sacred-Objects), they've also been found inside the tombs of saints, and even modern Greeks placed them between the lips of the dead at burial to protect against vampirism.

[Cuthalion]

The triceratops is missing a horn in the second panel of 927. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html)

Look in Roy.

[DataNinja]

I never noticed that in The fourth panel of the second page of 994 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), Belkar is still standing in the Circle of Truth when he stays "This stinks worse than that gnomish cheese that Elan brought back from town that I ate without asking."

[nbLurkerAbove]

Look in Roy.

Look behind Roy: Grey tip to the left of his head, but no horn on the right to support it

[ti'esar]

It depends: if he likes video games it's Hammerfell, if he'd rather listen to some music it's Hammerfall.

EDIT: It also could be an accent/dialect thing. Gontor talks like a human, while the other usher has a dwarven accent. My surname has different vowels when said with my accent or in the standard spelling. Hammerfell could be spelled Hammerfall by other dwarves.

Also, I just noticed that the last pages answer the great question: "Where was Gontor...? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWMgk6gE2Q)"

Huh, I also hadn't noticed until now (or if I had, I had forgotten) that Gontor didn't have an accent when he was alive.

[Bird]

Erm, I never noticed that the V in the thread title is, in addition to a roman numeral, Vaarsuvius.

[SirKazum]

I don't know if it's in any of the manuals, but I've read of a very old Eastern European tradition that stuffing holy wafers into a vampire's mouth and beheading it (after staking through the heart) was a necessary part of killing them. Just staking wasn't considered enough to kill the vampire 100% dead in some versions of the lore.

And in Bram Stoker's novel, holy wafers are said to repel the undead and are used to keep vampires away from the coffins of the newly dead. According to this link (http://49thshelf.com/Blog/2013/10/31/How-to-Kill-a-Vampire-Crucifixes-Holy-Water-and-Other-Sacred-Objects), they've also been found inside the tombs of saints, and even modern Greeks placed them between the lips of the dead at burial to protect against vampirism.

I actually first saw this whole "holy wafers and vampires" thing (and yeah, I also wondered what the hell are holy wafers, since it's also called "ostia" in Portuguese) in the Vampire entry in the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual. It said you had to chop off the vampire's head and stick holy wafers in their mouth to definitely kill them, otherwise they'd just turn to mist and reform after a while or something like that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Technically, holy wafers are referred to as the Host in English speaking countries as well. It's just that us Americans aren't so good at using proper technical terms.

[Rollin]

When Soon summons the ghosts of the Sapphire Guard using the words "Arise, my children," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) he's the second person to address them as "children" in a few minutes. He may well be replying indirectly to Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).

[Darth Paul]

Thanks for refreshing my memory, SirKazum. I know I have those books somewhere still. And I researched the topic after reading that, because I wondered where the idea came from. I wish I could find a good link for the legend, but alas...


Technically, holy wafers are referred to as the Host in English speaking countries as well. It's just that us Americans aren't so good at using proper technical terms.

The term probably didn't make it into the D&D books because it belongs to very specific IRL religions, and the authors didn't want to give offense by putting that term into their writings. Nor do I. :smalleek:

[Dr.Zero]

This one is a wild guess


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html
The only prisoner who is not smiling and looks with anger at the goblin who wants to swap side?
A bald guy.

Who maybe has grown back a very few hairs (if it is possible while you are polymorphed, but I guess so)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html



This one instead seems quite clear to me, now. Compare the position of the hands in the two cases


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html
It was already the Spellsplinter!

[SirKazum]

Thanks for refreshing my memory, SirKazum. I know I have those books somewhere still. And I researched the topic after reading that, because I wondered where the idea came from. I wish I could find a good link for the legend, but alas...



The term probably didn't make it into the D&D books because it belongs to very specific IRL religions, and the authors didn't want to give offense by putting that term into their writings. Nor do I. :smalleek:

I was just rereading the 2E Vampire entry. First off, they probably mention "holy wafers" rather than "the host" for the same reasons they mention "lawful good holy symbols" rather than crosses :smallwink: That is, both to avoid unfortunate issues with RL religions, and to allow the whole myth to work with settings that have entirely fictious religions with different trappings (i.e. most D&D worlds).

Secondly, it seems the business with chopping the head off and stuffing the mouth with holy wafers refers to when you defeat a vampire by driving a stake into their heart. They can still be definitely destroyed if exposed to one round of sunlight, immersed in running water for three rounds, or if unable to find their coffin in 12 turns (i.e. 120 minutes) after turning into mist due to losing all their hitpoints. Mind, this is all 2nd edition.

And one final thing I remembered... boy, the folks who wrote the core 2E books did love to sprinkle "all but" liberally all over the text, as if it had no meaning other than making the text sound fancier. Which of course led to some ridiculous RAW interpretations - for example, the thing with the gems table where, if you roll 1 on the special characteristics table, it becomes a higher category and you roll again ignoring "all but 1". Which of course means that, if you happen to roll a 1 in the first place, you're guaranteed to get a gem of the highest possible category since you're "forced" to keep rolling 1's. But nevermind, this isn't the RAW Dysfunction thread... :smalltongue:

[Quild]

This one is a wild guess


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html
The only prisoner who is not smiling and looks with anger at the goblin who wants to swap side?
A bald guy.

Who maybe has grown back a very few hairs (if it is possible while you are polymorphed, but I guess so)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

It's possible but not sure because of the polymorph thing.
Also that very prisonner could be frowning because of the hobgoblin right in front of him.

[Dr.Zero]

It's possible but not sure because of the polymorph thing.
Also that very prisonner could be frowning because of the hobgoblin right in front of him.

True. Indeed my hypothesis is quite a stretch.
But it seems so perfect that maybe Rich can think to start implying it was his plan all along (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html). :smallbiggrin:

[Quebbster]

The showdown between Darth V and Xykon takes less than a minute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) from start (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) to finish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html). So... about 18 seconds per page?

[Darth Paul]

True. Indeed my hypothesis is quite a stretch.
But it seems so perfect that maybe Rich can think to start implying it was his plan all along (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html). :smallbiggrin:

You're not the only one to give that frowning prisoner a double-take in retrospect. And I don't think your hypothesis is a stretch at all. In fact, I tend to think it probably was The Giant's plan all along. :smallwink: And a little Easter egg to observant readers like us.

[Aeliren]

Vampire Gontor's eyes glowing when he says "I will provide you with a fight more befitting the proper order of things" in strip 1013 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1013.html). It actually creeped me out a bit when I finally noticed it.

[colanderman]

Vampire Gontor's eyes glowing when he says "I will provide you with a fight more befitting the proper order of things" in strip 1013 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1013.html). It actually creeped me out a bit when I finally noticed it.

And it seems his eyes were glowing because he was summoning the pack of rats in strip 1014 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html).

[Vinyadan]

In page 56, Xykon says "don't get your hopes too high. She's a blonde." I thought he was referring to the zombies groping Lirian and talking to them as if they had been teenagers trying to hit on her, and telling them that it's hard to get a blonde, but now I wonder if he meant "No brains there, she's a blonde", because they were saying, "brains".

[snowblizz]

In page 56, Xykon says "don't get your hopes too high. She's a blonde." I thought he was referring to the zombies groping Lirian and talking to them as if they had been teenagers trying to hit on her, and telling them that it's hard to get a blonde, but now I wonder if he meant "No brains there, she's a blonde", because they were saying, "brains".
That's how I always interpreted it.

[lurkmeister]

In Page #191 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), when Xykon says

:xykon:: I once went down the shore for the weekend, and when I got back, three manticores and an umber hulk were hanging new drapes in my living room
he uses a phrase that's widely considered a classic marker of the Philadelphia dialect (i.e. "down the shore"). This, in turn, makes me think he talks like a bonier version of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lZFiyd_-0
:belkar:

[DaggerPen]

In Page #191 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), when Xykon says

he uses a phrase that's widely considered a classic marker of the Philadelphia dialect (i.e. "down the shore"). This, in turn, makes me think he talks like a bonier version of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lZFiyd_-0
:belkar:

Rich is from Philly, isn't he?I remember it coming up before b/c I noticed a Girard Ave while in Philly, rembered he lived there and wondered if that might have been where Girard's name was taken from. (The consensus, fyi, was that it was a common enough name that it was probably a coincidence.)

[Keltest]

Rich is from Philly, isn't he?I remember it coming up before b/c I noticed a Girard Ave while in Philly, rembered he lived there and wondered if that might have been where Girard's name was taken from. (The consensus, fyi, was that it was a common enough name that it was probably a coincidence.)

I don't know if he was raised there, but he is certainly living there now.

[lurkmeister]

Rich is from Philly, isn't he?I remember it coming up before b/c I noticed a Girard Ave while in Philly, rembered he lived there and wondered if that might have been where Girard's name was taken from. (The consensus, fyi, was that it was a common enough name that it was probably a coincidence.)
I've heard he is.

Also Girard is not a very common name 'round these parts. It sounds funny and slightly foreign (mostly because it is). We use it for a street and a school and that's about it...But the street is an important one and that keeps it in our subconscious forefronts. It would fit the general naming conventions of a D&D-esque world -- foreign-ish, but not too foreign -- quite well.

[Remagamer]

In 950 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html) the Mechane has a bumper sticker stating that his other airship is a carpet :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

In Page #191 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), when Xykon says

he uses a phrase that's widely considered a classic marker of the Philadelphia dialect (i.e. "down the shore"). This, in turn, makes me think he talks like a bonier version of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lZFiyd_-0
:belkar:

That phrase (I believe) is also used in Jersey and Xykon IS Evil so my bet is he's from there. He was probably even friends with The Situation once.

[DaggerPen]

Since the art upgrade, vampire "Durkon" no longer has visible bite marks. You can't see any on "Gontor" either.

[Aeliren]

"Y'know, the rune over behind Xkyon's throne labeled "Castle Self-Destruct." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)

[SirKazum]

Man, I never paid any attention to why the apple-selling girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html) rushes off when the adventurers come... it's to change into a more appealing outfit!

[Rodin]

Man, I never paid any attention to why the apple-selling girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html) rushes off when the adventurers come... it's to change into a more appealing outfit!

I also never noticed that they put a price on the tumbleweed!

[SirKazum]

I also never noticed that they put a price on the tumbleweed!

...oooh, I just noticed something else! The "adventurer-friendly" Temple of Freya says "Missing Limbs - 25% off". If a generally humanoid being loses a limb... then 25% of their limbs got cut off! Eh? Eh?

...okay, I'll see myself out :smalltongue:

[Kami2awa]

It might be foreshadowing a LONG way in advance, or it might just be accidental, but look at what V says in the 8th panel of this comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html

[Ron Miel]

It's certainly deliberate. The Giant had pretty much plotted out the entire arc by then.

[Dr.Zero]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html

I've never noticed it before, but at the bottom of the giant gold tankard, there are the letters WWTD? (What Would Thor Do?)
After almost 100 strips from this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html Durkon finds it applicable, after all.

[The Anarresti]

Long time, no post. But I was reading through for the umpteenth time, procrastinating my exams, and I realized that spittle that flies from Malack's mouth when he shouts "I will not put my family below yours!" in strip 854 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) is not spittle, but is, in fact, blood, possibly the remains of his last meal.

[Darth Paul]

"Y'know, the rune over behind Xkyon's throne labeled "Castle Self-Destruct." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)

Oh, sweet Freya. I never noticed that.

I wonder if it was fixed in the print edition, which is what I mainly read now when I do an OOTS back-episode marathon?

[Endon122]

I never noticed how in 886, when Roy kills Xykon in Girard's illusion, Redcloak helplessly looks upon the act behind a force cage, much like Eugene looked on master Fyron being slain by Xykon. It's somewhat creepy how in Roy's "perfect scenario" he wants to make Redcloak "suffer" similiar to how Roy's father did.

[ti'esar]

Given the relative insignificance of Redcloak in that whole scenario, I'm not sure it's intended to be a parallel.

[Kurald Galain]

Given the relative insignificance of Redcloak in that whole scenario, I'm not sure it's intended to be a parallel.

Yeah, the Order is almost completely unaware that Redcloak is at all important. Except Belkar, for some reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) :smallbiggrin:

[Rollin]

The back of the Throne of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) represents a stream of tears descending from stick-figure sad eyes.

The design certainly bespeaks the clear mental discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) of a near-epic interior designer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html).

[Ron Miel]

I don't see a stream of tears, but it is the same shape as the King's eyebrows.

[ti'esar]

Which are one of the standard OOTS ways of showing someone crying.

[Kish]

Given the relative insignificance of Redcloak in that whole scenario, I'm not sure it's intended to be a parallel.
I also doubt Roy thinks Redcloak feels any real affection for Xykon, considering how vile Xykon is, and I'm pretty positive that Roy has no inkling of the Plan. In the unlikely event that Roy spared a thought for how Redcloak would feel after it was over, I'd expect that part of the illusion to go,
:redcloak: Oh no! Lord Xykon is destroyed!
:redcloak: I'm purposeless! Motivationless! Have no one to tell me what to do!
:redcloak: I'm...free? Free! Ha ha ha ha ha! *skips off into the sunset*

[Vinyadan]

Actually, it seems to me as if he were putting his father in the cage to watch while he does what he couldn't. Dreams can skip some passages and have people being someone else.

[Rollin]

I don't see a stream of tears, but it is the same shape as the King's eyebrows.

Well, just that it's blue. I see it as a very board-shaped stream :smallamused:

[The Linker]

Dammit. I only just figured out that the high priest of Odin was gasping at the vampires coming in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html). I couldn't figure why she was gasping! It looked like she was gasping at HPoH calling to her, but she was looking in the wrong direction. Like she suddenly went blind and looked in the direction of the speech bubble.

[DaggerPen]

Dammit. I only just figured out that the high priest of Odin was gasping at the vampires coming in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html). I couldn't figure why she was gasping! It looked like she was gasping at HPoH calling to her, but she was looking in the wrong direction. Like she suddenly went blind and looked in the direction of the speech bubble.

... ohhhhhh.

[Origamite]

I'm not sure if I'm oblivious, judging by personality or it's the speech bubble, but I always saw the "Hold Person" in 398 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html) as coming from V. Apparently it's Durkon.

[AlignmentDebate]

The new high priest of Hel can be seen in the first panel of 994. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

Other vampires are possible to spot as well.

[Gift Jeraff]

I just realized we've seen the dusting effect in 1018/1019 before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Durkula's accent disappears as soon as he's out of Roy's sight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) and hasn't returned since.

[hroþila]

I never noticed that, in #661, panel #8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) O-Chul is freaking out, but by panel #10 he's calm, having accepted his own death and ready to die with dignity.

[An Enemy Spy]

I never noticed that, in #661, panel #8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) O-Chul is freaking out, but by panel #10 he's calm, having accepted his own death and ready to die with dignity.

I think that's more him reacting to having a fist go down his throat. O-Chul had already accepted his probable death when he broke out of the cage.

[hroþila]

I think that's more him reacting to having a fist go down his throat. O-Chul had already accepted his probable death when he broke out of the cage.
Yeah, but I think there's a difference between "Xykon is most definitely going to kill me" and "I'm going to die RIGHT NOW". Not that he'd be scared either way, because paladin, but the level and meaningfulness of that acceptance is not the same I think.

[ti'esar]

Either way, neat catch on the changing facial expressions. I don't think I've noticed that before.

[Mx56]

I just realised that in #963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), Durkula briefly slips into Durkon's accent ("somethin' to look forward to") and feel kind of stupid because it was immediately highlighted by Durkon in the following panel.

[Ron Miel]

Not that he'd be scared either way, because paladin ...

Of course he was scared. A hero acts even though he's scared.


'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave,' his father told him.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

Being scared is an advantage, if you use it properly.

Let me tell you about scared. Your heart is beating so hard I can feel it through your hands. There’s so much blood and oxygen pumping through your brain it’s like rocket fuel. Right now you could run faster and you could fight harder, you could jump higher than ever in your life. And you are so alert it’s like you can slow down time. What’s wrong with scared? Scared is a superpower.
Doctor Who, episode Listen

[Peelee]

Of course he was scared. A hero acts even though he's scared.

A paladin, however, doesn't. Because above 3rd2nd level, they're immune to fear. They simply act.

[Pyrous]

A paladin, however, doesn't. Because above 3rd level, they're immune to fear. They simply act.

Above and including 3rd level.

[Kantaki]

A paladin, however, doesn't. Because above 3rd2nd level, they're immune to fear. They simply act.

Oh, that's Miko's interpretation of that ability. I think Redcloak had something to say about that. The word unnatural was used if I recall correctly.
Seriously, being immune to fear doesn't (or shouldn't) mean that you don't feel it. It just doesn't affect you in a negative way*. Instead of being paralized or driven to fight or flight instincts a Paladin can still think (more or less) rational. More in O-Chul's case less in Miko's.

[goodpeople25]

A paladin, however, doesn't. Because above 3rd level, they're immune to fear. They simply act.
Though the Miko discussion and (maybe?) other in-comic stuff seems to support just not feeling any fear at all being the effect in OotS (and i don't think that is definite as it's Miko:smallwink: but still an indicator) i think wether or not aura of courage effects feeling the emotion of fear is up to interpretation for roleplaying purposes. Any real ingame effect they're immune to of course.
And i think a paladin can feel fear in an antimagic field as unlike most immunities (or even divine health so it dosen't seem to be for flavour) it's a Su effect not an Ex one (unless the Su is referring just to the aura not the immunity, any statements on that?) so there is that.
Not really sure I prefer one interpretation over the other, but i do believe its interpretation.

[Pyrous]

(unless the Su is referring just to the aura not the immunity, any statements on that?)

I think the immunity is part of the effect of the aura.

[goodpeople25]

I think the immunity is part of the effect of the aura.
Ok just a question as most immunities do seem to be Ex abilities and it dosen't seem to be a flavour "power from the gods" angle as divine health is Ex.
Also just to clarify by aura i meant the all allies in 10 feet get a bonus.

[Vinyadan]

Oh, that's Miko's interpretation of that ability. I think Redcloak had something to say about that. The word unnatural was used if I recall correctly.
Seriously, being immune to fear doesn't (or shouldn't) mean that you don't feel it. It just doesn't affect you in a negative way*. Instead of being paralized or driven to fight or flight instincts a Paladin can still think (more or less) rational. More in O-Chul's case less in Miko's.

Besides, there isn't only fear. There is the crushing suffering of knowing that you will die in the ruins of your city, after having spent your last miserable months in pain and torture, away from most of your loved ones.

You can be scared by the prospective of suffering or paralyzed by the fear of losing something. Paladins can knowingly go towards loss and suffering without being scared, and then, when the time comes, suffer the whole deal nonetheless.

[Vovix]

In strip 705 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html), Niu is holding bludgeoning weapons and holy water. As in, she actually prepared to battle a "skeleton crew".

[Rift_Wolf]

Was probably noted at the time, but had a moment of fridge logic.

When Tarquin meets Sabine, he says 'lovely as ever' and she replies 'that doesn't mean anything to a Shapeshifter'. Tarquins wearing a ring of True Seeing; he's the only character we know for certain who knows what Sabine actually looks like.

[Lord Torath]

I never noticed that Mr. Scruffy attempted to disembowel the dwarf in black armor (page two panel six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html)). Either practice and/or lack of armor makes him more successful in the arena.

[Ron Miel]

What makes you think he didn't succeed? The dwarf has scrathes on his torso, which indicates several wounds. At minimum he lost HP to Scruffy's attack. This probably contributed to his death.

[Pyrous]

What makes you think he didn't succeed? The dwarf has scrathes on his torso, which indicates several wounds. At minimum he lost HP to Scruffy's attack. This probably contributed to his death.

There's no indication that the dwarf was disemboweled.

[Markozeta]

Where is this fine lass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html) now? Is she Bandana's Ex? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html)

Edit: Nevermind, I found her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html)

[Lord Torath]

What makes you think he didn't succeed? The dwarf has scratches on his torso, which indicates several wounds. At minimum he lost HP to Scruffy's attack. This probably contributed to his death.Obviously, because his bowels stayed in his stomach. Not saying Mr Scruffy didn't kill him, just that a disembowelment did not occur. And I never noticed his attack before.

[Pokemonster2]

What Hinjo says in strip 302 "it is a time for new beginnings and new plotlines which may or may not be immediately apparent"
This is almost for sure our reference to the new story arc that's happening.

[goodpeople25]

Obviously, because his bowels stayed in his stomach. Not saying Mr Scruffy didn't kill him, just that a disembowelment did not occur. And I never noticed his attack before.
Technically we don't see all of him in the last panel. So technically it is possible i guess. Though his position on the gorund makes that quite unlikely, (but then agian after looking at the last panel closely, i don't understand how the bodies got in the postions they did anyway, some seem to have fallen the wrong way or are too close together, Not saying it's important it just slightly bugs me now.)

[ti'esar]

Gotta say, as debates in this thread go, the question of whether a random mook was disemboweled or not has got to be one of the ickier.

[Kurald Galain]

Haley isn't bluffing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), she keeps her promises (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html).

[littlebum2002]

What Hinjo says in strip 302 "it is a time for new beginnings and new plotlines which may or may not be immediately apparent"
This is almost for sure our reference to the new story arc that's happening.

This happened almost a year ago in comic. I think he was referring to "NOW it is a time for new beginnings and new plotlines", not "in a year from now"

[Vinyadan]

I never noticed that Mouse is black.

[ti'esar]

General Chang's cape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) seemingly disappeared after he died. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)

[Bird]

I never noticed that Mouse is black.
Who, now?


*limitdance

[Ron Miel]

One of the twelve gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

Although I think he's actually Rat.

[Bird]

Ah, thanks--that's what tripped me up.

[Ruck]

I remember the first time reading the BRitF storyline that some of the forum posters were surprised (or thought it was bad characterization) that Tarquin eventually melted down and revealed himself to be a delusional control freak who couldn't handle anything outside his conception of how the story was "supposed to go."

Eventually I went back and read the book again. All the way back in #758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), panel 7:


As I may have mentioned, Malack and I were members of an adventuring party back in the day. I was the leader, in fact, as you are the leader of your little band. After my defeat, I gathered them together.

Emphasis mine. 150 strips before Malack dies, we have evidence that Tarquin is delusional about his role in his party.

[ti'esar]

To be fair, strictly speaking that wasn't evidence at the time. Until we met members besides Malack and his preference for a low profile, there was no reason to believe Tarquin wasn't the leader of his party. (Apart from the fact that he's a borderline pathological liar, but that's not proof he's lying in any particular case).

[Syldar]

It was evidence he was delusional, though. Notice the second part: "just like you are the leader of your little band." He thinks Elan is the leader of the OotS. And the "just like" is extra foreshadowing icing on the 87-layer plot cake: he says Elan's just as much a leader as he is... and he's right, in a way that he isn't fond of.

[Kish]

Yes, but everyone who didn't get that he was delusional long before he started acting overtly nonfunctional as a result of delusionality is also someone who believed he was the leader of his party even after we saw the other members of it treat him with borderline contempt.

(To be fair, I believed he was the leader, too, until Laurin and Miron showed up and acted like he wasn't.)

[Ruck]

It was evidence he was delusional, though. Notice the second part: "just like you are the leader of your little band." He thinks Elan is the leader of the OotS. And the "just like" is extra foreshadowing icing on the 87-layer plot cake: he says Elan's just as much a leader as he is... and he's right, in a way that he isn't fond of.

Yes, exactly. That's what I meant.

[Ruck]

Also, it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize one of the ways in which Pompey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii) is Vaarsuvius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius)' evil opposite.

[Caractacus]

Yes, but everyone who didn't get that he was delusional long before he started acting overtly nonfunctional as a result of delusionality is also someone who believed he was the leader of his party even after we saw the other members of it treat him with borderline contempt.

(To be fair, I believed he was the leader, too, until Laurin and Miron showed up and acted like he wasn't.)

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)

[Jasdoif]

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)In case it helps clarify your thoughts, here's someone else's thoughts about Tarquin's place in the Vector Legion:


If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you. I gave you the evidence to see what he was, you just chose to believe his spin instead and then criticize me for not living up to it. The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history. But look at the way Laurin and Miron talk to him; does that sound like people who think he's the mastermind that got them to where they are? Or does it sound like how people talk to Elan? Why do you think that strip was even in there, except to reveal that Tarquin's version of his place in the group had been inflated by Tarquin?
Tarquin provides insight into narrative roles that translates to actual concrete power in the OOTS world. You can make plans based on those things and they work. Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make. He has since revised that into believing that he is their leader and master strategist. He is, in a very real way, the Elan of his team, only his team's goal is conquer everything instead of save the world.

There's certainly been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin has even a passing understanding of valid military strategy, or political strategy, or personal relationships. What he understands are stories, and it just so happens that he was born into a world where that actually can help you win…for a while.
Well, it's an analogy, not a perfect substitution. Maybe I oversold it when I said they treat him like Elan, but the main point was that he had overstated his own agency in their mutual plan. He may have had the initial concept, but if he had been left to run it himself it would have certainly failed, precisely because he would have had no one to keep him from going off the deep end at the first bump in the road. It's not a coincidence that Tarquin's breakdown started with Malack's death.

[Ruck]

Hmm...that said, Roy leads our team, and the arguing and criticism there is pretty serious.

I have never thought that Tarquin didn't lead the team in the sense that he was subordinate to anyone else - it seems to me that he probably IS the planner in the outfit, it's just that he can't give orders without a rationale. Maybe that make him not a leader. Hmm. I suppose that Roy can give orders without explaining (can't think of instances, but there you go), but there is a reason for that: half the party is definitely NOT any good at leading by virtue of Durkon being, well, congenitally unable to lead, and Elan and Belkar being Chaotic+daft/psychotic. Haley can plan, and V is intelligent, but we know in what ways they aren't cut out to lead.

My (rambling) point is that just because Tarquin's gang of friends are sarcastic and critical doesn't necessarily mean that they are cut out to lead, so he may plan, organise and run the group, but as more of an administrator than the traditional gung-ho, follow-me type of leader.

I feel that his delusional nature about his own importance doesn't have to require that he's wrong/lying about his position in the party - just that 'leading' that party means something other than dictating to its members what is to be done. (Blah blah blah - sorry, thinking aloud here...)

My point is still that you can see his delusion when he says that Elan is the leader of the Order of the Stick, regardless of what we know about Tarquin's status in his own party then or now (although it does seem to be closer to Elan's than Roy's).

[Keltest]

Correct me if im wrong, but at the time he made that comment, wasn't Tarquin not aware that Roy and Belkar were members of the Order? Going back through the comics, I can certainly see how Tarquin would be under the impression that Elan is the leader of the band, if only because no shots of any significance to anyone but Elan were called that he would be aware of.

[Jasdoif]

Correct me if im wrong, but at the time he made that comment, wasn't Tarquin not aware that Roy and Belkar were members of the Order?He strongly hinted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) that he had already assumed they were all a team, simply by virtue of being multiple high-level adventurers that showed up at the same time; and he'd met Roy and Belkar (and commented on Roy's martial prowess) in 753 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html), a few comics before the comment about Elan being the leader was made (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html).


Going back through the comics, I can certainly see how Tarquin would be under the impression that Elan is the leader of the band, if only because no shots of any significance to anyone but Elan were called that he would be aware of.I got a distinct "Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html) in charge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html)" vibe from Elan's behavior in front of Tarquin, myself.

[Pyrous]

He strongly hinted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) that he had already assumed they were all a team, simply by virtue of being multiple high-level adventurers that showed up at the same time; and he'd met Roy and Belkar (and commented on Roy's martial prowess) in 753 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html), a few comics before the comment about Elan being the leader was made (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html).

I got a distinct "Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html) in charge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html)" vibe from Elan's behavior in front of Tarquin, myself.

Agreed on both counts.

EDIT: I guess Haley learned something about leadership in DStP, after all.

[rodneyAnonymous]

In case it helps clarify your thoughts, here's someone else's thoughts about Tarquin's place in the Vector Legion:


There's certainly been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin has even a passing understanding of valid military strategy, or political strategy, or personal relationships.

I disagree that there has been no evidence presented in the comic that Tarquin understands military strategy. Malack learned "a few things about attrition" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) from him.

[Kish]

While I don't think Malack's opinion of Tarquin's tactical acuity is strong evidence, considering Malack got fatally outmaneuvered by Nale...

Eh, hyperbole on my part. He's probably average for a warrior his level, just not nearly good enough to pull off the things he's done strictly through military strategy.

EDIT: This is why I'm sorta starting to hate the out-of-context quoting; because I tend to exaggerate when speaking extemporaneously and describe things out of proportion to what I really intended when I wrote the scenes. I should learn to just stop talking about it, because everytime I say something I end up changing everyone's view of the events in the story, and I would be better served letting the story stand on its own and ignoring the critics.

[ti'esar]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

(Are we really having an argument about Tarquin's competence here?)

[Peelee]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

It could be even more backhanded than that; there's nothing saying that Tarquin was particularly good at attrition, and honestly, I doubt that he would have the patience for a war of attrition. Conversely, Malack has nothing but time, being immortal and all, and can easily afford patience when it suits him. I now read that line similar to "I know the best way to wear someone down, thanks to all the practice I've had on Tarquin."

[Yendor]

The irony is that Nale, who Tarquin treated with such contempt, really was the leader of his party.

[Ruck]

I always thought that was the joke. We interpret that line one way - as a compliment - when we first read it, and then later after we see that Tarquin doesn't have much more tactical flair beyond abusing attrition, we can go back and see that it's actually some stealth snark on Malack's part.

(Are we really having an argument about Tarquin's competence here?)
Yeah, I think this is the most likely explanation, given Malack's anger toward Tarquin in #845 and that he refers to him as a "fool" in #870.

The other interesting alternative is, as someone in the linked thread pointed out, that Malack was sincere, but only because he doesn't value human life. i.e. Tarquin is not very good at using attrition, but even so, he has shown Malack that it works if you don't care about the soldiers you lose.

[Dr.Zero]

Well, I find the route this thread has taken interesting, at least as a reason to advocate the principle of the "Death of the Author (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor)".

IRL, if we saw the debate between Miron, Laurin and Tarquin, we would have concluded that they are a group working on a "favour based system" (that is, in itself, almost the only practical way to make a LE group work together, to be honest) and that yes, they -as the same Malack- see the dramatic tendencies of Tarquin as some sort of eccentricity, like if someone IRL believed in prophecies, but nothing more than that.

IRL, we would have never doubted of the authority of Tarquin within his group, at least to some extent, since he managed to get his son Nale alive till when he decided to kill him by himself. For example saying to Laurin to "stay professional", while she wanted to avenge Malack and while Nale was mockingly grinning at Laurin, too.

IRL if we had Tarquin saying to one of his old friends to man up about the death of his "family" (ok, they were spawns, but for Malack they were close enough to a family) we would have never doubted that Tarquin was the "cold", planning and leading one of the two, specially if the aforementioned old friend agreed on that course, eventually.

IRL if we saw Tarquin alone kicking the whole (V aside) OOTS' asses, and that same old friend raging about it because Tarquin was "showboating" and indulging in the curiosity of testing his son, we would have never doubted that he was an awesome warrior, since how he alone was able to fight our heroes, while not even fighting for real.

And after that scene, with Tarquin's apologies, no one would have doubted of his maturity.

IRL we would have no doubt about Malack being serious, and not sarcastic, when he says the sentence about "spend time with a general of Tarquin's caliber", because they are friend and because Malack fundamentally always followed Tarquin's leadership and he had not the slightest reason to be sarcastic toward Tarquin in a fight with Durkon.

And, hey, because Tarquin is really the general planning the things. Which bring us to the last point.

And last, but not least, IRL if we knew that the whole plan to conquer the continent was created by Tarquin, we would have been in awe of his pure (even if evil) genius. I mean, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Napoleon didn't do much more than Tarquin has done already and they are history's legends.

And yet we are comparing him to Elan.

So, regarding this whole "quote" thing, I think I can only repeat what is written in the aforementioned tvtropes page: "Intentions are one thing. What was actually accomplished might be something very different."thi

Edit: some of the many grammatical errors

[Vinyadan]

What I read in the comic is the story of a cunning group of adventurers who managed to gain control of a few kingdoms and act as puppeteers. Tarquin doesn't really need to be an amazing general - a Scipio or Hannibal or Napoleon - but he could be a Pompey: a very good general, better than most, and who knows how to use his troops. That's how I understand him. And I also understand him as a man hellbent on certain things, and who can throw everything and any caution away for the sake of them. That doesn't make him a bad commander in general, but it makes him a person with control issues. I also wouldn't be surprised if this had been his first breakdown.

I prefer not to read the Giant's comments, because I'd have to go fishing around them and it would be a headache to get them in context of the discussion and of each other.

[Peelee]

But this story doesn't take place IRL. It takes place in a world where understanding of wtory structure translates to real power. Where a million to one chance means it will almost certainly happen. The rules are different, and you can't compare to RL scenarios sometimes.

Case in point: apologozing to a longtime friend takes on a slightly different meaning when that longtime friend is a vampire that looks like he's about to go in full-rage mode.

[Dr.Zero]

But this story doesn't take place IRL. It takes place in a world where understanding of wtory structure translates to real power. Where a million to one chance means it will almost certainly happen. The rules are different, and you can't compare to RL scenarios sometimes.


When I used the "IRL" example, my point was not to compare the two worlds.
Was to compare the two different ways to read the story.
Judging the story for itself (like we were watching it without "commentaries", like we were "living" it) vs judging the story for what were the intentions of the writer.
To put it in a simpler, even if a bit more blunt way: I don't care if Rich wanted to show Tarquin as an evil fool, mirroring Elan, if then the story didn't show him that way.
If the story showed a guy who managed to organize, and so far to accomplish too, the conquest of a good portion of a continent, I judge the guy from it. And the guy so far is history book material.
If the story showed that Tarquin was able to shield Nale from his team's fury and revenge, I judge the authority of Tarquin on that team from this, between the other things, not from what was intended.
And so on, with all the points above, that I don't want to repeat.
Of course, I judge even the fact that his team mates consider him eccentric (it was one of the first thing Malack pointed out), but still they follow a plan he created.

This is the concept behind the "Death of the author" that I embrace completely. :smallcool:



Case in point: apologozing to a longtime friend takes on a slightly different meaning when that longtime friend is a vampire that looks like he's about to go in full-rage mode.

We could argue about the chances of Tarquin losing against a guy who was for some time on par with Durkon, while Tarquin did show a moment before to be on par with the whole OOTS (V aside).

But it would not be the point, because the example was not about strength but how he faced the conflict.

Whatever the reason being fear (of Malack? of the fact that if he fight Malack, Nale and his friend would have waited that the two of them were hurt to finish them both?), friendship or mere convenience, Tarquin didn't want to fight Malack.
And he took the mature way to avoid that fight which can be summarized as: "Ehi, you know? You have a point. Next time I will be as professional as I asked you to be. Sorry mate!"

I think Roy wouldn't have acted differently, for example.

[Mordae]

I never noticed that an off-hand observation could cause a 20+ post derailment in this forum. Err, yeah, I guess I've noticed that about this forum.

Also, I never noticed that poor Franken-golem fell into the abyss in 578 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html).

[LogicalOxymoron]

When Tiamat is on the phone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), the speech bubble has five pointers.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And you can see the five different breath weapons coming through the phone. Now that's fidelity; just like you're really face-to-face with the person you're talking too.

(Really old phone company reference there, don't worry if you don't get it (just get offa my lawn).)

[Peelee]

When I used the "IRL" example, my point was not to compare the two worlds.
Was to compare the two different ways to read the story.
Judging the story for itself (like we were watching it without "commentaries", like we were "living" it) vs judging the story for what were the intentions of the writer.
To put it in a simpler, even if a bit more blunt way: I don't care if Rich wanted to show Tarquin as an evil fool, mirroring Elan, if then the story didn't show him that way.
If the story showed a guy who managed to organize, and so far to accomplish too, the conquest of a good portion of a continent, I judge the guy from it. And the guy so far is history book material.
No, you're seeing it that way because you aren't understanding the framework of the story. Again, this is a world where knowledge of dramatic structure translates into real power. Elan could potentially conquer an entire continent as Tarquin did, due to his knowledge of story structure. Tarquin is obviously more intelligent than Elan, yes, but he is not the ultra-competent character you are making him out to be. Hell, a very real possiblity exists that, in OotS world, the only reason he was able to succeed was to give Elan character development. Tarquin outright states that he was able to succeed because every story needs a villain, and he was able to capitalize on this. Compare this to Xykon - one of them is the villain because the story needs a villain, so why not him; the other is a villain because he wants power to exert his will over all others. One is genuine, the other is cheap opportunism. Tarquin was now shown to be foolish in the beginning, but rather his character began to show through as the story went on. Tarquin was able to succeed in spite of his military prowess, not because of it. Hell, the one time we see him personally command an army in battle, his entire battle plan boils down to "bring in a really impressive-looking army so I look cool, and then tell everyone to attack indiscriminately." When it doesn't work, he doesn't adapt. When his friends tell him his tactics suck, his reply is "well it wouldn't if I had more guns." He held off the Order, yes, by fighting defensively. He was able to chase them down after they escaped his military. He's decent to fairly adept at small group battles. He's god-awful at military strategy. If you want to read "everybody try to kill these guys" as the be-all, end-all of military genius, I suppose I can't really convince you otherwise.

[Keltest]

No, you're seeing it that way because you aren't understanding the framework of the story. Again, this is a world where knowledge of dramatic structure translates into real power. Elan could potentially conquer an entire continent as Tarquin did, due to his knowledge of story structure. Tarquin is obviously more intelligent than Elan, yes, but he is not the ultra-competent character you are making him out to be. Hell, a very real possiblity exists that, in OotS world, the only reason he was able to succeed was to give Elan character development. Tarquin outright states that he was able to succeed because every story needs a villain, and he was able to capitalize on this. Compare this to Xykon - one of them is the villain because the story needs a villain, so why not him; the other is a villain because he wants power to exert his will over all others. One is genuine, the other is cheap opportunism. Tarquin was now shown to be foolish in the beginning, but rather his character began to show through as the story went on. Tarquin was able to succeed in spite of his military prowess, not because of it. Hell, the one time we see him personally command an army in battle, his entire battle plan boils down to "bring in a really impressive-looking army so I look cool, and then tell everyone to attack indiscriminately." When it doesn't work, he doesn't adapt. When his friends tell him his tactics suck, his reply is "well it wouldn't if I had more guns." He held off the Order, yes, by fighting defensively. He was able to chase them down after they escaped his military. He's decent to fairly adept at small group battles. He's god-awful at military strategy. If you want to read "everybody try to kill these guys" as the be-all, end-all of military genius, I suppose I can't really convince you otherwise.

The way I see it, Tarquin is a fairly competent military commander because having brilliant knowledge of story conventions translates into moderate knowledge of military command. Tarquin does have a number of fairly impressive military feats under his belt, leading his first kingdom to conquer a large portion of a continent, and later directing a variety of successful strikes against independent kingdoms to drive them into the grip of his hidden allies.

[Aeliren]

The way I see it, Tarquin isn't completely incompetent - but he isn't a military genius either. He does appear to understand some concepts of war, at least some such as attrition, and the initial plan to conquer the Western Continent appears to be his own (We only have his word, but there was the flashback sequence where he was explaining it), though his companions were there to keep him on track when he might've risked it.

In small scale combat, Tarquin appears to be rather competent. In his fight against the Order (sans V), sure, he was fighting defensively, but his best friend (who fought beside him for 35 years) knew that he was holding back and was toying with them, and he admitted himself that he wanted to test Elan's fighting capabilities in that fight. His later fight against Julio seemed to be like the two were of about equal strength until Laurin intervened.

In military tactics... it seems to lean a bit more on the side of not entirely competent. On one hand, he managed to conquer himself a kingdom before being overthrown by a coalition of 26 other countries, and that was before he called in his buddies from the Vector Legion. On the other hand, at the pace kingdoms and empires fall in the Western Continent, it might not mean as much as it could. He is described by Malack as a General of at least a certain calibre ("You don't spend time with a general of Tarquin's calibre without learning a few things about attrition."), though as the quote says, it may be just on the subject of attrition. The actual "military prowess" we've seen first hand in-universe are when he orders his legion to rush Roy, Belkar and "Durkon", which turned into a spectacular failure. However, in a world where story knowledge equals to power, and believing himself to be in the position of the main villain with his son as the hero, he may have thought that his son would have been alright, but that those he considered to be "B-list fodder" would have been killed. Without Malack to keep him straight he went off the rails.

Perhaps Tarquin does or used to have some knowledge of military and fighting tactics, but they're overshadowed by his knowledge of the story and his need for the dramatic. I suspect that either: a) whoever his partner at the time had the task of keeping him in line, or b) he and Malack were just that close friends. Hence, the attempted dramatic execution scene after Malack's death that failed, and his story tactics working until he comes face-to-face with the heroes. He's far from being the ultimate tactician and fighter he claims to be and likely wasn't the leader of the Vector Legion, but he isn't entirely incompetent either.

[Kish]

Well, I find the route this thread has taken interesting, at least as a reason to advocate the principle of the "Death of the Author (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor)".

IRL, if we saw the debate between Miron, Laurin and Tarquin, we would have concluded...

IRL, we would have never doubted of the authority of Tarquin within his group... (etc.)
Either stop the bus or clarify that by "we" you mean "me and the mouse in my pocket." :smallannoyed:

[Dr.Zero]

Either stop the bus or clarify that by "we" you mean "me and the mouse in my pocket." :smallannoyed:

Me and whoever agrees with me. That's, to say, probably whoever inserts conquerors' and generals' names in history books.
You, of course, think differently. That's fair. But not every group of persons needs you to be a group.

This just to close the argument, since it has derailed the original thread already too much.

[Darth Paul]

I noticed in 315 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0315.html), in the next-to-last panel, you can just barely see that Celia has already been hypnotized by the bug zapper- her eyes have gone blue & swirly, but it's hard to see because they're at the very top of the frame.

[Ruck]

The joke the Oracle makes to the Ancient Black Dragon about Roy in #628 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) is pretty funny, but I never noticed until now that that meeting was set up in #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), when the Oracle tells Roy he has "an important client flying in." (emphasis mine)

[Debatra]

I was re-reading the battle of Azure City and noticed something. Back in 462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), the hilt of O-Chul's katana is gray in Miko's hands. Then I checked back a few pages and noticed it was always gray. (447 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) gives a good view, as well as some other colors.)