Need Help for understanding how the Crusader Tank build works

[Blackskorpion]

Hi,

I want to make a dwarven-Crusader who can Tank a lot of damage and who gives the opponent a reasen to atack me instead of the other meele-partymembers.
So I read a lot of forums and guides and such things and the awnser for the question how to build such a tounting tank is:
Iron Guard`s Glare Stance.

BUT! hear`s my big question about that: What hinders the opponent just to take a 5ft step back out of my threaten area and than atacking my other Partymembers?
I read in th guides that it makes sens to take a weapon with reach like the Guisarme. But then the enamy just could take a 5ft step towards me and would be as well out of my threated area.

the only solution I see for that problme is the Spiked Chani. But I would need a feat to fight with it and the pictour of the roughy, full plate armored dwarven-Crusader who welds a spiked chain in both hands won`t just go in my head.

Any sugestions how to solve this problem? I can only use stuff from the Players Handbook1 and the Tome of Battle.

[Ellowryn]

As you notes, with Iron Guard's Glare having a reach weapon helps cover its weakness. There are also some maneuvers that punish opponents for not attacking you or for trying to move around you. Your best bet is to simply try and get in the middle of as many enemies as you can to take advantage of your abilities.

As for the reach thing, the simplest way to fix this is armor spikes which allow you to threaten your adjacent squares while you use your more "appropriate" weapon to extend your threatened area.

[Red Fel]

Hi,

I want to make a dwarven-Crusader who can Tank a lot of damage and who gives the opponent a reasen to atack me instead of the other meele-partymembers.
So I read a lot of forums and guides and such things and the awnser for the question how to build such a tounting tank is:
Iron Guard`s Glare Stance.

Partially correct, albeit incomplete.


BUT! hear`s my big question about that: What hinders the opponent just to take a 5ft step back out of my threaten area and than atacking my other Partymembers?
I read in th guides that it makes sens to take a weapon with reach like the Guisarme. But then the enamy just could take a 5ft step towards me and would be as well out of my threated area.

the only solution I see for that problme is the Spiked Chani. But I would need a feat to fight with it and the pictour of the roughy, full plate armored dwarven-Crusader who welds a spiked chain in both hands won`t just go in my head.

Any sugestions how to solve this problem? I can only use stuff from the Players Handbook1 and the Tome of Battle.

I seem to remember that there's either a weapon enhancement or a feat that... Hold on, I'm getting ahead of myself.

First off, the stances. That's stances, because there are two.

Iron Guard's Glare is your backup stance. This is the stance you use when an enemy has gotten past you and is now threatening your allies. You can't force him away right now, so you use IGG and give him a penalty if he attacks anybody but you. Couple that with the Defensive Rebuke boost, and not only do they take a penalty, but they also provoke an AoO from you. Couple that with Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike and you get an AoO if they attack you, which they pretty much have to. AoOs for everybody!

The other stance is Thicket of Blades. This is your primary stance. ToB is the stance you use to stop an enemy from getting to your allies. ToB says that anybody in your threatened range who takes any movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an AoO from you. Couple that with feats like Improved Trip and Knock Down or Stand Still and you can prevent them from taking that step proactively.

Now, what was I saying about the weapon? Oh, right. I seem to recall either a feat or weapon enhancement that lets you switch your grip on a reach weapon in order to threaten close range with it. But if you're using Thicket of Blades right, that becomes a non-issue, because if somebody tries to take a 5-foot step inside your radius, you get an AoO and can stop them.

[Blackskorpion]

Ok, thx so far. The Armor-spike-thing sounds quite funny. So iff I`m holding a Guisarme in boath hands I treat the area 10ft away from me. And iff im wearing an armor with spikes, I treat the area adjected to me. What kind of atack can i do if someone next to me provokes an AoO? Its just a normal atack with my bab and str mod or is it a grapple atack? Or can`t I even do an atack but just treat the area for the -4 penalty from Iron Gurd`s glare.

Yeah. To the thicket of blade-thing I have another question: How can a Crusader-only character get this stance before lvl 9 and without taking the marial stance feat? I gues he can not? right?

I`m lvl 6 now and I though about the combination of the following manouvers and feats:

-Stone power
-extra granted manouver
-combat reflexes (replaced by the exotic weapon prof. for the spiked chain if the armor-spike-thing wont work...)

Maneuver:
lvl1:
-Crusader strike
-vanguard strike
-stone bones (maybe replaced by charging minotaur. nor sure how useful this is)
lvl2
-Battleleaders charge
-Mountain hammer
lvl3
-white raven tactic
-defensiv rebouke (I`m realy sorry for not getting the revitalizing strike, couse I realy like the self-healing aspect of this class but I gues, the defensiv rebouke is just better)

Stance:
-Leading the charge (does the charging minotaur-manouver gain the extra dmg from this stance?)
-Iron guard`s glare


What do you think about that so far?

[Red Fel]

What kind of atack can i do if someone next to me provokes an AoO? Its just a normal atack with my bab and str mod or is it a grapple atack?

There is no such thing as a "grapple attack." Grappling is its own thing. We won't go there; it's useless to you.

An AoO is what it says on the tin - an Attack of Opportunity. You get 1 per round unless you take a feat. That said, there are things you can do that give your AoOs more utility. For example, the Knock Down feat says that if you deal 10 damage on an attack - any attack, including an AoO - you can make a Trip attempt for free. That means knocking someone prone and canceling their movement. The Stand Still feat allows you to forego the damage on an AoO and instead stop someone's movement cold. That's what your AoOs are for.


Or can`t I even do an atack but just treat the area for the -4 penalty from Iron Gurd`s glare.

Okay, let's explain this again. While you are using the Iron Guard's Glare stance, any enemy within your threatened range takes a penalty to attack anyone but you. It requires no action on your part, and you can do whatever the heck you want while it's active. Want to attack? You can attack. Make AoOs? Sure. Dance a jig? Knock yourself out.

Thicket of Blades is the one we're focused on. It's the one that gives you the AoOs.


Yeah. To the thicket of blade-thing I have another question: How can a Crusader-only character get this stance before lvl 9 and without taking the marial stance feat? I gues he can not? right?

Okay. Thicket of Blades is a third-level Devoted Spirit maneuver. Devoted Spirit means that Crusaders get access to it. Third level means that you need an Initiator Level of 5 or higher to access it. Your Initiator Level is equal to your Crusader level if you're going straight Crusader. That means you can access Thicket of Blades at level 5, and can take it at level 8, when you get your third stance, or sooner if you take Martial Stance.


I`m lvl 6 now and I though about the combination of the following manouvers and feats:

-Stone power
-extra granted manouver
-combat reflexes (replaced by the exotic weapon prof. for the spiked chain if the armor-spike-thing wont work...)

Drop Stone Power. It's not great and I don't know why you want it. Consider dropping Extra Granted Maneuver, too. It's not amazing for what you need.


Maneuver:
lvl1:
-Crusader strike
-vanguard strike
-stone bones (maybe replaced by charging minotaur. nor sure how useful this is)
lvl2
-Battleleaders charge
-Mountain hammer
lvl3
-white raven tactic
-defensiv rebouke (I`m realy sorry for not getting the revitalizing strike, couse I realy like the self-healing aspect of this class but I gues, the defensiv rebouke is just better)

Crusader's Strike and Vanguard Strike are decent choices. Stone Bones is okay at low levels, but doesn't hold up well later on. Charging Minotaur would probably be more useful if you want to quickly interpose yourself between the enemy and your allies.

Mountain Hammer is excellent and will serve you well. Battle Leader's Charge is good, but you don't need it and Charging Minotaur. Also, you don't qualify for Battle Leader's Charge unless you have another White Raven maneuver first. (Unless we're counting Leading the Charge. Then you're good.)

White Raven Tactics is solid gold and you'll be glad every time you use it. Defensive Rebuke is more valuable for tanking than Revitalizing Strike, and you'll be glad every time you use it. Revitalizing Strike is just an upgrade over Crusader's Strike, after all.

Keep in mind also that, starting at 4th level and every even level thereafter, you can swap one maneuver for another for which you qualify. So if you get tired of things like Crusader's Strike or Stone Bones, you can swap them out.


Stance:
-Leading the charge (does the charging minotaur-manouver gain the extra dmg from this stance?)
-Iron guard`s glare

Leading the Charge gives its bonus to all allies. You are your own ally, so you get the bonus. That said, it's not worth a lot to you. If you're not in a melee-heavy group, Leading the Charge really only helps you. If you are, it's still a bad idea, because how can you keep enemies off of your allies when your allies are in the middle of combat with you? That said, it becomes more valuable when Pounce is involved. Admittedly, there's not a lot available at low levels, so it's adequate. But you'll probably spend most of your time in IGG.