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View Full Version : Power levels between......levels.



Masakan
2015-10-23, 11:54 AM
Lets be real here, the power variables between levels is easily discernible as the game goes on.
The Different Power Levels depend on where certain classes shine, as well as what would be most effective or powerful.
Heres how I see it,
1-5 is where everyone starts off usually. This is effectively comparable to things like Conan the barbarian, where level 3 spells would be considered extraordinary.

6-10 is the thought provoking levels. Keep this in mind. Most normal people don't get past level 7, so you would already be either much stronger or much more influential than most. This could be comparable to things like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and even certain fantasy animes.
Casters start to pick up more steam and Melees start to drop. But neither start to outweigh the other.

11-15 We start to get into more high flying anime action: You effectively need Magic regardless of what class you are in order to be of use. Casters start to become more and more relevant to the point of being of most importance, while Pure Mundanes start to get spiffed out and gishes become much more useful. Things like Kingdom hearts and Rwby come to mind when thinking of this level. If you plan to make a campaign that goes up to this point or beyond, then it would be preferable to make things like magic more commonplace

16-20:This is basically demigod Level.Just one shy of the coveted level 9 spells where you can basically destroy entire countries single handed. Magic is pretty much the name of the game, all mundanes are considered next to useless, and while gishes have their place they still come up short compared to their pure caster counter parts. If anyone can come up with examples for this that would be great.

This is what I came up with, and it's for this reason that I feel that when making characters it's best to think up to level 15 rather than meta gaming to 20. But that's just me. You may argue that casters become powerful sooner, but again that requires a dubious amount of Meta gaming which shouldn't be a major factor in the overall power variables.

Xervous
2015-10-23, 12:02 PM
Though I might be setting the bar too high, casters with 9ths feel closer to Silver Surfer power level than anything else.

Flickerdart
2015-10-23, 12:13 PM
Why is 15 on one level and 16 on another? Nothing changes between those levels except an iterative attack.

Necroticplague
2015-10-23, 12:21 PM
I'm confused about the distinction between gish and pure caster. Isn't a gish just a straight caster who felt that Polymorph/Shapechange, Tenser's Transformation, and Lightning Blade would be good choices for their spell known?

Masakan
2015-10-23, 12:26 PM
I'm confused about the distinction between gish and pure caster. Isn't a gish just a straight caster who felt that Polymorph/Shapechange, Tenser's Transformation, and Lightning Blade would be good choices for their spell known?
Gish:A magician, or character that is skilled in both physical combat and the use of magic. Most gish characters use their magical abilities to increase their own personal combat abilities.
Basically think of gishes as Magic Swordsmen, or Arcane Bladesmen. Basically a Character who is proficient in both Melee(And by melee I mean not just spam polymorph constantly) and Magic. Some choose to be more melee orientated which leads them to be self buffers, using things such as greater mighty wallop and Divine power, Or can be more caster orientated, utilizing Blasting spells for mid to long range combat......:annoyed:seriously the fact that I actually have to explain this.

zimmerwald1915
2015-10-23, 12:30 PM
Gish:A magician, or character that is skilled in both physical combat and the use of magic. Most gish characters use their magical abilities to increase their own personal combat abilities.
Basically think of gishes as Magic Swordsmen, or Arcane Bladesmen. Basically a Character who is proficient in both Melee(And by melee I mean not just spam polymorph constantly) and Magic. Some choose to be more melee orientated which leads them to be self buffers, using things such as greater mighty wallop and Divine power, Or can be more caster orientated, utilizing Blasting spells for mid to long range combat......:annoyed:seriously the fact that I actually have to explain this.
Necroticplauge is snarking that pure casters using polymorph and spells like it make better gishes than gishes as classically conceived, which tend to be multiclass or half-casting classes.

Red Fel
2015-10-23, 12:36 PM
This is what I came up with, and it's for this reason that I feel that when making characters it's best to think up to level 15 rather than meta gaming to 20. But that's just me. You may argue that casters become powerful sooner, but again that requires a dubious amount of Meta gaming which shouldn't be a major factor in the overall power variables.

I'm confused. Why is planning up to 15 just thinking, but planning up to 20 metagaming? For that matter, why is making casters powerful sooner "a dubious amount of Meta gaming"?

I ask this, because under the definition of metagaming with which I'm familiar, the term describes conduct that uses out-of-character knowledge or information to govern in-character decisions. What you're describing doesn't seem to me, at first blush, to be metagaming, but rather building with a focus on end-game power.

Masakan
2015-10-23, 12:38 PM
Necroticplauge is snarking that pure casters using polymorph and spells like it make better gishes than gishes as classically conceived, which tend to be multiclass or half-casting classes.
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I'm confused. Why is planning up to 15 just thinking, but planning up to 20 metagaming? For that matter, why is making casters powerful sooner "a dubious amount of Meta gaming"?

I ask this, because under the definition of metagaming with which I'm familiar, the term describes conduct that uses out-of-character knowledge or information to govern in-character decisions. What you're describing doesn't seem to me, at first blush, to be metagaming, but rather building with a focus on end-game power.

Because once Level 9 spells hit the table, any non full caster becomes pretty much irrelevant, and when I say a dubious amount of metagaming, what I should have said was a dubious amount of cheese. I.E get as many spells as you can that can end encounters in 1 turn.
Example level 1 wizard, you can get up to ....6 level 1 spells because you have 16 int.
You get Silent Image, Color Spray, Grease, Ray of Emfeeblement, Wall of Smoke and Sleep. Why? because they are the best spells you can get at level 1 and can make every encounter trivial up till level 5. After which you just get all the best spells in the game like Polymorph, shadow conjuration, Maw of chaos etc.

Red Fel
2015-10-23, 12:50 PM
Because once Level 9 spells hit the table, any non full caster becomes pretty much irrelevant, and when I say a dubious amount of metagaming, what I should have said was a dubious amount of cheese. I.E get as many spells as you can that can end encounters in 1 turn.
Example level 1 wizard, you can get up to ....6 level 1 spells because you have 16 int.
You get Silent Image, Color Spray, Grease, Ray of Emfeeblement, Wall of Smoke and Sleep. Why? because they are the best spells you can get at level 1 and can make every encounter trivial up till level 5. After which you just get all the best spells in the game like Polymorph, shadow conjuration, Maw of chaos etc.

While I agree with you that a well-optimized full caster can obviate pretty much any challenge on his own, particularly once 9th-level spells are in play, I'm a bit reluctant to call good spell selection "a dubious amount of cheese." It's one thing to pick the best spells; it's another to pick a unique combination of race, template, feat, and class features and come out of it saying "I can cast this 9th-level spell as an at-will (Su) ability without the need for components or casting time." The former is making good choices; the latter I readily agree is enough cheese to fill a fondue pot.

Necroticplague
2015-10-23, 12:52 PM
Gish:A magician, or character that is skilled in both physical combat and the use of magic. Most gish characters use their magical abilities to increase their own personal combat abilities.
Basically think of gishes as Magic Swordsmen, or Arcane Bladesmen. Basically a Character who is proficient in both Melee(And by melee I mean not just spam polymorph constantly) and Magic. Some choose to be more melee orientated which leads them to be self buffers, using things such as greater mighty wallop and Divine power, Or can be more caster orientated, utilizing Blasting spells for mid to long range combat......:annoyed:seriously the fact that I actually have to explain this.

I'm not seeing how that contradicts what I said, beyond the completely arbitrary distinction of 'no polymorph'. A cleric 20 can be a gish by virtue of buff spells that make him good (actually, awesome) in martial combat, while still having most his magic mojo remaining. They are also still a pure caster, having full CL and 9th level spells. The distinction is entirely arbitrary.

OldTrees1
2015-10-23, 01:14 PM
@Masakan
3rd edition has well know (albeit frequently debated) problems. Depending on how one reacts to these problems, one will get different level clumping. (For example: that level 11-15 range goes from 8-20 at my table)

But what does this level clumping have to do with build start/end levels? Campaign start/end levels seem relatively divorced from this level clumping so why not build start/end levels?

Rebel7284
2015-10-23, 01:19 PM
6-10 is the thought provoking levels. Keep this in mind. Most normal people don't get past level 7, so you would already be either much stronger or much more influential than most. This could be comparable to things like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and even certain fantasy animes.
Casters start to pick up more steam and Melees start to drop. But neither start to outweigh the other.


In my opinion, Level 5 is when casters start to outweigh melees and completely and obviously do by levels 9-10. (Well besides druids, druids outweigh everyone starting at level 1 and only slow down after 9.)

Doc_Maynot
2015-10-23, 01:36 PM
In my opinion, Level 5 is when casters start to outweigh melees and completely and obviously do by levels 9-10. (Well besides druids, druids outweigh everyone starting at level 1 and only slow down after 9.)

Have you seen Eggynack's handbook? They just get stronger. :smalleek:

Gabrosin
2015-10-23, 02:01 PM
Character power levels unsurprisingly follow spell progressions. Every advance in spell level for a character is going to produce something that's game-changing relative to what came before it, for both PCs and their opposition, so every odd character level, you had better be keeping up in some way. Beyond that, where your build's sweet spot is can vary wildly. Mundanes tend to do very well in the early levels. Some of the early-rewards prestige classes really amp up a character's power, and most of these start coming online around level 6. Some builds wait a long time for their world-shattering power to start working, but outclass everyone else once they get it.

Really all that matters is that a party is balanced against itself, that the DM matches their expectations with regards to challenge level, and that everyone is having fun.

Deadline
2015-10-23, 02:22 PM
The term Gish originally referred to a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard multiclass I believe. It seems to have morphed to be a catch-all term for a spellcaster who predominantly engages in traditional combat (melee or ranged), supplemented by his/her/its spells.

In 3.5, you can quite easily fall under that category with a handful of spells as a full caster.

@Masakan - This sort of power breakdown has been looked at around here before, and it's rare to find much agreement on where those breakpoints lie. The E6 ruleset (i.e. 6th level is the highest level you can get to) seems to be in existence at least partially due to a similar thought process. I'm not sure how far you think you're going to get by arbitrarily deeming any given playstyle you dislike as "metagaming", "cheese", or what have you. And as OldTrees1 points out, these power levels will span different level ranges for different tables. For example, the tables I play at pretty much rarely go any higher than 10th or 11th level. I'd be willing to bet that we likely wouldn't see the "16-20" level you define in your OP purely due to unfamiliarity.

Rebel7284
2015-10-23, 02:34 PM
Have you seen Eggynack's handbook? They just get stronger. :smalleek:

Yes, I have read all of it. Took some time. :)

I still maintain that while they certainly get stronger, they get stronger slower at 10-16 than Wizard or Cleric at those same levels.

Shapechange, of course, throws any semblance of balance out of the window at 17.

eggynack
2015-10-23, 02:39 PM
Have you seen Eggynack's handbook? They just get stronger. :smalleek:
Depends on the comparison point. Druids increase their strength relative to most other classes as level rises, but the curve slopes downward a bit if it's relative to other tier one classes. Well, at least until things hit the caster singularity at level 17. Druids can do some pretty crazy things at higher levels though.

Max Caysey
2015-10-23, 05:29 PM
Though I might be setting the bar too high, casters with 9ths feel closer to Silver Surfer power level than anything else.

At level 17? Without cheese?

I hardly think so. Could you come up with a scenario where a level 17 wield (uncheesed) power equal to the silver surfer?

Kelb_Panthera
2015-10-23, 06:20 PM
Lets be real here, the power variables between levels is easily discernible as the game goes on.

Less easy than you would think. Level is hardly the only variable that determines the power curve through a character's progression.


The Different Power Levels depend on where certain classes shine, as well as what would be most effective or powerful.

It's a simple fact that the wider your class' abilities vary, the more your class shines through in the overall character. Broadly speaking, strictly warrior classes tend to be subsumed by multiclassing choices and magical gear relatively early while a caster character's choice of base casting class will affect everything he ever does, far more so than whatever class or item he later picks up to supplement or augment his spellcasting. Skillful characters fall somewhere in between.


Heres how I see it,
1-5 is where everyone starts off usually. This is effectively comparable to things like Conan the barbarian, where level 3 spells would be considered extraordinary.

Sounds about right, though I'd put the upper bound at level 6 or 7.


6-10 is the thought provoking levels. Keep this in mind. Most normal people don't get past level 7, so you would already be either much stronger or much more influential than most. This could be comparable to things like Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, and even certain fantasy animes.
Casters start to pick up more steam and Melees start to drop. But neither start to outweigh the other.

In point of fact, the DMG rather strongly suggests that most people never make it to level two but that's neither here nor there.

Here's where we run into the first flaw in your argument. Whether casters start to seriously outstrip noncaster characters at this point is pretty much entirely a function of how skillfully those characters are built and played. Item reliance is coming into full swing for noncasters at this point and the first solid magical combos and gamechanger spells are appearing. As for this being the "thought provoking" range, if you're not thinking before this you got here by dumb luck or your allies carrying you. This is a thought provoking -game- and you need to be thinking from the moment your d6's hit the table for determining your ability scores.

I'd also peg this as more of the level 6-7 to 11-12 range.


11-15 We start to get into more high flying anime action: You effectively need Magic regardless of what class you are in order to be of use. Casters start to become more and more relevant to the point of being of most importance, while Pure Mundanes start to get spiffed out and gishes become much more useful. Things like Kingdom hearts and Rwby come to mind when thinking of this level. If you plan to make a campaign that goes up to this point or beyond, then it would be preferable to make things like magic more commonplace

You've needed magic to stay relevant for a while by now. Item reliance started way back at the beginning of the last level range if not the end of the first. If, as a noncaster, you've gotten this far and aren't positively aglow with magic it's because the DM has been twisting the base game to make it so or you've been facing mostly humanoid enemies with casters few and far between or because a supportive caster has been carrying you for several levels now. There's nothing wrong with those playstyle choices, of course, but they are decidedly below the game's expected power scale for these levels.

The truth of it is that noncasters are seriously struggling to keep up with the sheer power and versatility of casters by this point. Properly built and kitted out, they can overcome challenges in this range as easily as they ever did with the exception of humanoid caster foes. Casters are now at the point where their choices can have strong, far reaching impact on the campaign world and challenging a cleverly played one takes serious thought. In the overall, this is the point where the game has diverged. It is no longer one, but three interrelated games; the games played by a group of noncasters, a group of all casters, and a mixed group.

I'd put this range from 10-13~ish to a hard stop on 16.


16-20:This is basically demigod Level.Just one shy of the coveted level 9 spells where you can basically destroy entire countries single handed. Magic is pretty much the name of the game, all mundanes are considered next to useless, and while gishes have their place they still come up short compared to their pure caster counter parts. If anyone can come up with examples for this that would be great.

Noncasters are still competitive at this level but their reliance on gear is absolute. Surviving at this level without heavy reliance on magic is simply not possible. Because magic supremacy reigns at this level, those who access it natively have a very distinct advantage over those who don't. Noncasters are perfectly capable of continuing to adventure but casters are the authors of their own adventures. All characters are capable of making world-altering shifts but noncasters do so by leading armies or using economy rattling sums of treasure and performing favors for those in power while casters do so through the sheer might of their own magic. You're still nowhere close to challenging gods for their portfolios but your so far above the common folk as to be indistinguishable from gods in their eyes since even a naked warrior at this level can slay armies while casters bend reality into a pretzel.

Range; 17-20.


This is what I came up with, and it's for this reason that I feel that when making characters it's best to think up to level 15 rather than meta gaming to 20. But that's just me. You may argue that casters become powerful sooner, but again that requires a dubious amount of Meta gaming which shouldn't be a major factor in the overall power variables.

What reason? You've described the 4 sub epic level ranges here but none of those descriptions, even as you've written them, are inherently good or bad in their own right. Your post in the overall shows your preferences, range 2 with a limited tolerance into range 3 with a preference for martially oriented magic users (aka gish as you've defined it), but gives no solid logical arguments for why those preferences are superior to their alternatives.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and don't really need logical analysis to hold the preferences you hold. What's important is intellectual honesty, you like what you like because you like the feel of it. That power range and those sorts of characters appeal to you on a gut level. It's the same reason most people hold the preferences they hold even beyond gaming.

If you can come up with some subjective logic for why those preferences are better, to you, than the alternatives then that's great. It makes it easier to gage whether you and someone else who's done the same have similar expectations and preferences for the game and, consequently, whether or not you're likely to enjoy gaming together. It is, however, subjective and that's why you can never get everyone to agree to the same things; some people are just going to have a different idea of fun and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

A point of order, however; the metagame is the game's mechanics and their design and interaction, as opposed to the game itself which is what you do when you sit down to play an actual session. The term "metagaming" is a colloquial shorthand for using knowledge of the metagame to impact how you actually play the game.

The building of a character mechanically is an entirely metagame process. You use your knowledge of the metagame to put together a character you want to play based on his mechanics even if it's a 1st level commoner with toughness and alertness.




{ scrubbed }


You're letting your unfiltered thoughts run away with you again. Someone you don't agree with is not an unmitigated cheater or a bad person.

Masakan
2015-10-23, 06:44 PM
Less easy than you would think. Level is hardly the only variable that determines the power curve through a character's progression.



It's a simple fact that the wider your class' abilities vary, the more your class shines through in the overall character. Broadly speaking, strictly warrior classes tend to be subsumed by multiclassing choices and magical gear relatively early while a caster character's choice of base casting class will affect everything he ever does, far more so than whatever class or item he later picks up to supplement or augment his spellcasting. Skillful characters fall somewhere in between.



Sounds about right, though I'd put the upper bound at level 6 or 7.



In point of fact, the DMG rather strongly suggests that most people never make it to level two but that's neither here nor there.

Here's where we run into the first flaw in your argument. Whether casters start to seriously outstrip noncaster characters at this point is pretty much entirely a function of how skillfully those characters are built and played. Item reliance is coming into full swing for noncasters at this point and the first solid magical combos and gamechanger spells are appearing. As for this being the "thought provoking" range, if you're not thinking before this you got here by dumb luck or your allies carrying you. This is a thought provoking -game- and you need to be thinking from the moment your d6's hit the table for determining your ability scores.

I'd also peg this as more of the level 6-7 to 11-12 range.



You've needed magic to stay relevant for a while by now. Item reliance started way back at the beginning of the last level range if not the end of the first. If, as a noncaster, you've gotten this far and aren't positively aglow with magic it's because the DM has been twisting the base game to make it so or you've been facing mostly humanoid enemies with casters few and far between or because a supportive caster has been carrying you for several levels now. There's nothing wrong with those playstyle choices, of course, but they are decidedly below the game's expected power scale for these levels.

The truth of it is that noncasters are seriously struggling to keep up with the sheer power and versatility of casters by this point. Properly built and kitted out, they can overcome challenges in this range as easily as they ever did with the exception of humanoid caster foes. Casters are now at the point where their choices can have strong, far reaching impact on the campaign world and challenging a cleverly played one takes serious thought. In the overall, this is the point where the game has diverged. It is no longer one, but three interrelated games; the games played by a group of noncasters, a group of all casters, and a mixed group.

I'd put this range from 10-13~ish to a hard stop on 16.



Noncasters are still competitive at this level but their reliance on gear is absolute. Surviving at this level without heavy reliance on magic is simply not possible. Because magic supremacy reigns at this level, those who access it natively have a very distinct advantage over those who don't. Noncasters are perfectly capable of continuing to adventure but casters are the authors of their own adventures. All characters are capable of making world-altering shifts but noncasters do so by leading armies or using economy rattling sums of treasure and performing favors for those in power while casters do so through the sheer might of their own magic. You're still nowhere close to challenging gods for their portfolios but your so far above the common folk as to be indistinguishable from gods in their eyes since even a naked warrior at this level can slay armies while casters bend reality into a pretzel.

Range; 17-20.



What reason? You've described the 4 sub epic level ranges here but none of those descriptions, even as you've written them, are inherently good or bad in their own right. Your post in the overall shows your preferences, range 2 with a limited tolerance into range 3 with a preference for martially oriented magic users (aka gish as you've defined it), but gives no solid logical arguments for why those preferences are superior to their alternatives.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and don't really need logical analysis to hold the preferences you hold. What's important is intellectual honesty, you like what you like because you like the feel of it. That power range and those sorts of characters appeal to you on a gut level. It's the same reason most people hold the preferences they hold even beyond gaming.

If you can come up with some subjective logic for why those preferences are better, to you, than the alternatives then that's great. It makes it easier to gage whether you and someone else who's done the same have similar expectations and preferences for the game and, consequently, whether or not you're likely to enjoy gaming together. It is, however, subjective and that's why you can never get everyone to agree to the same things; some people are just going to have a different idea of fun and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

A point of order, however; the metagame is the game's mechanics and their design and interaction, as opposed to the game itself which is what you do when you sit down to play an actual session. The term "metagaming" is a colloquial shorthand for using knowledge of the metagame to impact how you actually play the game.

The building of a character mechanically is an entirely metagame process. You use your knowledge of the metagame to put together a character you want to play based on his mechanics even if it's a 1st level commoner with toughness and alertness.





You're letting your unfiltered thoughts run away with you again. Someone you don't agree with is not an unmitigated cheater or a bad person.

Oh I was always under the impression that meta gaming in DnD means that you tend to make decisions outside of the Roleplaying of the character. Basically doing things to counter act encounters and situations. Despite your character having absolutely no idea it would be coming.

And sorry I kinda lost it there.

ryu
2015-10-23, 07:32 PM
Oh I was always under the impression that meta gaming in DnD means that you tend to make decisions outside of the Roleplaying of the character. Basically doing things to counter act encounters and situations. Despite your character having absolutely no idea it would be coming.

And sorry I kinda lost it there.

So a character who makes a career out of risking his life for shiny things while fighting some of the most wretched things their world has to offer has no logical recourse in-world to pick spells logically? Most wizards don't pick spells by actual prediction of future events, unless they're divining in which case they're literally supposed to. No most wizards just pick generally good spells then apply them based on what they find during the day.

Vhaidara
2015-10-23, 07:36 PM
Oh I was always under the impression that meta gaming in DnD means that you tend to make decisions outside of the Roleplaying of the character. Basically doing things to counter act encounters and situations. Despite your character having absolutely no idea it would be coming.

And sorry I kinda lost it there.

Metagaming is entirely based on actions, not builds.

An example of metagaming:
The GM mentions something at poker on Thursday about having been looking at demons. Before you leave town to escort a merchant during the game on Friday you buy a Bane (Evil Outsider) Sword

An example of building:
As a wizard, you always prepare Rope Trick and get every spell you can get into your spellbooks. Because always having access to the right tool is LITERALLY what your class is designed around (which is why I'm a fan of Grod's Ritual Mage class)

Necroticplague
2015-10-23, 09:11 PM
a lot of countering situations make sense in character as well as out. If you know different creatures have different weaknesses, you keep a wide variety of weapons just in case. Polymorph is useful in almost every situation under the sun (and a good chunk that aren't), as is shadow conjuration. It's called planning, and rational actors do it.

Plus, the act of making a character is inherently a meta game process. After all, the character can't know anything if they don't exist yet. Thus, all actions taken while building a character are, by definition, metagame actions.

Platymus Pus
2015-10-24, 05:49 AM
Though I might be setting the bar too high, casters with 9ths feel closer to Silver Surfer power level than anything else.
*drives surfboard at incomprehensible speeds that dwarf light several times through wizard* (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111099/2991346-the_infinity_gauntlet_04_42.jpg)
I'd say you're setting the bar incredibly high.

charcoalninja
2015-10-24, 07:56 AM
*drives surfboard at incomprehensible speeds that dwarf light several times through wizard* (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111099/2991346-the_infinity_gauntlet_04_42.jpg)
I'd say you're setting the bar incredibly high.

Eh not really, Wizards are basically Doctor Strange. And the Sorcerer Supreme has enough counters in his spells to deal with the surfer. Course if he gets ganked on a weekend off... But that's high level wizards for ya!

Platymus Pus
2015-10-24, 08:19 AM
Eh not really, Wizards are basically Doctor Strange. And the Sorcerer Supreme has enough counters in his spells to deal with the surfer. Course if he gets ganked on a weekend off... But that's high level wizards for ya!

Considering Doctor strange is pretty much THE wizard (http://oi52.tinypic.com/2i8djdt.jpg) I don't think the comparison really holds.
Also mainly because I'm pretty sure strange could beat a wizard without his magic given the chance.

Cirrylius
2015-10-24, 11:32 AM
6-10 is the thought provoking levels. Keep this in mind. Most normal people don't get past level 7, so you would already be either much stronger or much more influential than most.
I feel like this range of power and the attendant change in mindset don't get enough love, conceptually. This 5-10 is where a character stops being extraordinary and starts edging into legend, and apart from the boss monster fights and new gear, so much of that character development gets rushed past. Having to deal with the consequences of power vaccuums, wide-spread celebrity, actually crafting new magical tools instead of finding them in dank holes, a gradual transition from personal scale to large scale conflict.

At 5th level, a character knows that people will remember them. At 10th, a character starts to wonder how long they'll remember him, and how much more pronounced their notoriety might get with time. You like to Craft stuff? Cool. Imagine when you're 20th level and your adventures have theological implications- how long do you think it'll be before your amateur silversmith work from your 20s becomes ludicrously valuable, because now it's the setting equivalent of a personal possession of Genghis Khan? Or for a more extreme example, imagine how popular Jesus' furniture would have been in those first few decades.



Oh I was always under the impression that meta gaming in DnD means that you tend to make decisions outside of the Roleplaying of the character. Basically doing things to counter act encounters and situations. Despite your character having absolutely no idea it would be coming.

There's also narrative metagaming- anticipating obvious plot points, or options for victory that would be unbalanced or dickish if they didn't exist, i.e. continuing to search for a hidden off-switch for a room with crushing, greased walls because this DM wouldn't screw you over with an over-CRed trap or an accidental TPK. Sometimes it's just expectations or pattern recognition you didn't realize you'd made until after you've started using it to your advantage. Very much a sliding scale.