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View Full Version : What trumps what? (Nine Swords)



I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-24, 11:28 PM
Tome of Battle question for some builds:
Let's say that you have a Crusader in Thicket of Blades stance, which causes all movement to provoke AoOs.

1) An enemy swordsage tries to tumble past him, which negates AoOs. I'm assuming that this is one of the things Thicket of Blades is intended to beat, since it was published first; if it was an exception, Thicket would say so.

2) An enemy Warblade tries to charge past him, using Battle Leader's Charge, which provokes no AoOs. In this case, both were published at the same time with no indication as to which absolute trumps which.

3) Now let's make the Warblade charge straight at the Crusader (edit to clarify: He's still using Battle Leader's Charge). The Crusader has Hold the Line and superior reach to the Warblade. Let's have him offer Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) too. How many AoOs does he get, and where do they come from?

I'm seeing at least the RG AoO in this case, and probably Hold the Line, so at least one, probably two AoOs, and maybe a third.

Jasdoif
2007-05-24, 11:49 PM
Thicket of Blades says any sort of movement provokes an attack of opportunity from you, if it's performed in your threatened area. This overrides the overrides, so to speak; as under normal conditions movement provokes them anyway; so I believe in 1 and 2 you get that AoO.

As for 3...Hold the Line gives you an AoO when a charging opponent enters an area you threaten. Thicket of Blades gives you an AoO when anyone leaves a square that's threatened by you. Robilar's Gambit gives you an AoO when someone attacks you. I believe you would get an AoO from each one; the limitation on AoOs provoked by movement specifically says those provoked by moving out of a threatened square, and only Thicket of Blades has that as its source.

The_Snark
2007-05-24, 11:55 PM
Tome of Battle question for some builds:
Let's say that you have a Crusader in Thicket of Blades stance, which causes all movement to provoke AoOs.

1) An enemy swordsage tries to tumble past him, which negates AoOs. I'm assuming that this is one of the things Thicket of Blades is intended to beat, since it was published first; if it was an exception, Thicket would say so.

Tumbling gets past Thicket of Blades, yep. It doesn't specifically say you can't tumble.


2) An enemy Warblade tries to charge past him, using Battle Leader's Charge, which provokes no AoOs. In this case, both were published at the same time with no indication as to which absolute trumps which.

With Battle Leader's Charge, the warblade can charge past the crusader without taking AoOs. Thicket of Blades specifically negates the withdrawal action and makes 5-ft steps provoke; other means of evading AoOs, such as Tumble and Battle Leader's Charge, still apply.


3) Now let's make the Warblade charge straight at the Crusader. The Crusader has Hold the Line and superior reach to the Warblade. Let's have him offer Robilar's Gambit (PHB2) too. How many AoOs does he get, and where do they come from?

I'm seeing at least the RG AoO in this case, and probably Hold the Line, so at least one, probably two AoOs, and maybe a third.

Is the warblade charging, or using Battle Leader's Charge? If the warblade is just making a regular charge and the crusader has reach, that's 1 AoO. If the crusader doesn't have reach or the warblade is using Battle Leader's Charge, no AoO there. The Hold the Line feat still gives you an AoO, I think; so does Robilar's Gambit. So that's either 2 or 3, depending on whether the warblade uses Battle Leader's Charge.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-25, 12:10 AM
I have to disagree Snark.

Thicket of Blades gives an AoO with any sort of movement.
A charge gives an AoO as well.
Tumble prevents the AoO from moving through a specific square.

Battle Lions Charge prevnts the Charge AoO but not the movement AoO.
Tumbling prevents the AoO for moving through a square but not for moving at all.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-25, 12:38 AM
Charges don't provoke AoOs, Tippy.

TheOOB
2007-05-25, 12:43 AM
Charges don't provoke AoOs, Tippy.

If they did no one would charge, ever.

The_Snark
2007-05-25, 12:47 AM
I have to disagree Snark.

Thicket of Blades gives an AoO with any sort of movement.
A charge gives an AoO as well.
Tumble prevents the AoO from moving through a specific square.

Battle Lions Charge prevnts the Charge AoO but not the movement AoO.
Tumbling prevents the AoO for moving through a square but not for moving at all.

The wording looks ambiguous to me, but 5-ft steps and the withdraw action are the only ones specifically mentioned. I'd think if they meant it to beat Tumbling, another core AoO avoider, they'd have mentioned it too. Anybody know if there's an answer to this somewhere?

And yeah, same on charges, although I think you might have meant if they have reach.

Miles Invictus
2007-05-25, 03:25 AM
Battle Lions Charge prevnts the Charge AoO but not the movement AoO.

As said before, charging does not inherently provoke an AoO. Movement during a charge can provoke an AoO, but only if you exit a threatened square -- which is movement related, not charge related. Also, the exact text for Battle Leader's Charge says "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge." Period. Thicket of Blade causes enemies to provoke AoOs, based on movement. Battle Leader's Charge lets you circumvent AoOs caused by movement. Thus, Battle Leader's Charge trumps Thicket of Blades.



Tumbling prevents the AoO for moving through a square but not for moving at all.

The AoO for moving through a square is the same AoO as for moving at all. Otherwise, a player who does not Tumble through Thicket of Blades will receive two AoOs -- one for moving through a threatened square, and one for moving at all. Which is a fairly ridiculous interpretation.
(Incidentally...to paraphrase the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#combatReflexes), against a single enemy, you can't provoke more than one movement-related AoO per turn. Implicitly, they're all treated as the same thing.)

Regarding scenario three...
Robilar's Gambit, obviously, only grants an AoO if its user can make an attack. Most reach weapons do not allow you to attack foes in adjacent squares. Because the charger attacks from an adjacent square, he cannot be attacked, and thus doesn't take an AoO from the Gambit. (If the reach weapon can attack adjacent squares -- like a Spiked Chain -- then, of course, the Gambit grants AoOs like normal.)

Does Hold the Line explicitly grant AoOs against charging? If so, then it would grant them against Battle Leader's Charge. As stated above, Battle Leader's Charge prevents AoOs related to movement, not to charging. Any feat or ability that grants AoOs against charging specifically would still function.

namo
2007-05-25, 05:22 AM
So basically nobody agrees... I had been wondering about that myself, and I think I would let Thicket of Blades trump both Tumbling and the WR charges. It seems it can't be solved by RAW, and asking Customer Service would probably just get the "complex rule question" non-answer.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-25, 08:30 AM
what I'd like to know about nine sword if you are a monk and have superior unarmed strike, would that stack with a monk's belt?

Person_Man
2007-05-25, 09:54 AM
Here is the maneuver, directly from the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a):


You maintain a careful guard as you search for any gaps in your opponent’s awareness. Even the slightest move provokes a stinging counter from you. While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten. Your opponents also cannot use the withdraw action (PHB pg. 143) to treat the square they start in as no longer threatened by you.

The maneuver specifically references 5 ft steps and the withdraw action. It says nothing about thwarting Tumble or other maneuvers. So my ruling as a DM would be that Thicket of Blades allows you take AoO on enemies who take 5 ft steps and the withdraw action, but not for other actions that would normally avoid AoO.

There's also another side argument to this. Normally, moving out of more than one threatened square during a turn counts as only one "opportunity" for the moving creature's foes (pg 138 PHB, also specifically discussed on the WotC website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a)). So if you charge a dragon with 20 ft of reach, he only gets one AoO on you, not 3, even if he has Combat Reflexes.

Thicket of Blades gives you an AoO BEFORE your enemy moves out of a square. So at a minimum, it would grant 1 additional AoO against an enemy moving out of your threatened area. But what if you have a 20 ft reach (not hard to get)? Does Thicket of Blades allow you to get 3 additional AoO when your enemy charges you? I would say no, it only gives you one additional AoO, because your enemy's movement is one action, and thus only counts as additional "opportunity." But others will probably disagree.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-25, 01:40 PM
AoOs for movement are normally taken before they leave the square; otherwise, a guy without reach wouldn't be able to hit someone running away.

Thicket doesn't specifically mention Tumble or the White Raven charges, but it does say "any sort of movement" provokes. Tumble, on the other hand say that you "[provoke] no attacks of opportunity," and the White Raven charges say practically the same thing.

Jasdoif
2007-05-25, 02:59 PM
Let me try to explain myself better.

In most cases, I would agree that Battle Leader Charge or tumble would take priority over a stance; afterall, they're the more specific event ("active action taken during turn" vs "passive constant effect"), and the more specific rule has priority.

However, Thicket of Blades looks like a "counter the counter" ability to me: Its effect, all movement provoking an AoO, is the default under the rules! While it only mentions the 5-foot-step and withdraw action explicitly, it uses the word "including" with regards to the 5-foot step. That means that it's meant to apply to other forms (or at least one other form) of movement too; since movement in general provokes AoOs, I can only conclude that any movement provokes an AoO, even those that normally don't.


If you can tumble without movement, I will readily agree that you don't get an attack of opportunity from the tumble. :smalltongue: