An idea for a feat that fixes dual pistol/crossbow

[Glorius Nippon]

So I recently felt like making a dual pistol gunslinger, and found how difficult it is to do properly (mainly because Paizo didn't like it). After several hours of searching, the only way to do so non-magically and without alchemist 2 discovery (not everyone wants their character to have a tentacle) is to take a bad feat with some not so great prerequisites (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit). Even then, your GM could shut it down by limiting free actions.

As such, I here's a feat I drafted up:

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Weapon Juggling (Combat)

You can juggle one handed weapons to free up a hand for other actions.

Prerequisite(s): Proficiency with crossbows or proficiency with one handed firearms, Sleight of Hand 3 ranks.

Benefit: As a non-action, you may juggle a one-handed weapon, freeing up one of your hands for other actions.

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Although I'd be using it for firearms I realized that crossbows run into the same problem and decided to make it a bit more general purposed. So, anything gamebreaking/ unintentional that I should change?

[Secret Wizard]

If your GM is limiting free actions, he simply doesn't want you to do a million things in a round. Creating "non actions" doesn't solve that problem.

[ThinkMinty]

So I recently felt like making a dual pistol gunslinger, and found how difficult it is to do properly (mainly because Paizo didn't like it). After several hours of searching, the only way to do so non-magically and without alchemist 2 discovery (not everyone wants their character to have a tentacle) is to take a bad feat with some not so great prerequisites (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit). Even then, your GM could shut it down by limiting free actions.

As such, I here's a feat I drafted up:

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Weapon Juggling (Combat)

You can juggle one handed weapons to free up a hand for other actions.

Prerequisite(s): Proficiency with crossbows or proficiency with one handed firearms, Sleight of Hand 3 ranks.

Benefit: As a non-action, you may juggle a one-handed weapon, freeing up one of your hands for other actions.

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Although I'd be using it for firearms I realized that crossbows run into the same problem and decided to make it a bit more general purposed. So, anything gamebreaking/ unintentional that I should change?

What's the issue? Are you not hitting enough people in a round with one pistol? Are you stuck on early firearms or something? Are you not aware of how cooltastic fanning is?

EDIT 1: Also, you could play a Picaroon Swashbuckler if you want to add more attack to your sling-gunnery.

EDIT 2:

If your GM is limiting free actions, he simply doesn't want you to do a million things in a round. Creating "non actions" doesn't solve that problem.

Seconded. Learn to love fanning, or find a secondary weapon other than pistols.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It looks fine to me-- it's one more feat tax in an already ridiculously feat-intensive style. I will note that it's also very nice for casters as well as archers-- maybe add a prereq like Rapid Reload or Quick Draw.

[FocusWolf413]

What's fanning?

[MyrPsychologist]

Fanning is a technique of using a revolver. It involves you rapidly hitting the hammer to quickly cycle the barrel of the gun and "rapid fire" the revolver.

Basically. What you see in movies/video games when a revolver fires SUPER fast.

[grarrrg]

So I recently felt like making a dual pistol gunslinger,...the only way to do so non-magically and without alchemist 2 discovery... is to take a bad feat with some not so great prerequisites (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit).

There is also 2 levels of Juggler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/juggler-bard-archetype) archetype Bard (although that's still about the same thing as Alchemist 2).

But there is the Vanara (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras) (and a variant-ability Tiefling) that has a Tail capable of holding objects.
It won't help with "limited Free Actions" any, as you have to transfer the weapon to you tail, reload with your free hand, and transfer back, but it doesn't burn a feat or require a dip (and Vanara's have solid Gunslinger stats to boot +DEX/WIS).


Even then, your GM could shut it down by limiting free actions.

If you Gm is interested in limiting Free Actions, then presenting them with a homebrew feat that side-steps those same Free Actions probably won't help.


Are you not aware of how cooltastic fanning is?

...Learn to love fanning, or find a secondary weapon other than pistols.
"Fanning" is not a thing in-game, and doesn't really apply.
If you have free-action reloads you can _say_ you are fanning (of course, early firearms mostly only have single-barrel/chambers, so fanning doesn't exist at all for them), but _saying_ you are doing something does not impact actual game mechanics.

And I do believe the goal is the extra attacks per round that TWF adds. Whether the situation is multiple opponents, one really tough opponent, or just using the higher Bab attacks and skipping the lower ones, TWF can be quite rewarding.


Are you stuck on early firearms or something?
Very likely the case, as a LOT of GM's have enough power-issues with Early Firearms that they aren't about to go an allow Advanced Firearms at all.

And for that matter, the Revolver makes "fanning" a complete non-issue as well:
"A revolver is a pistol with a revolving cylinder containing six chambers. Each chamber can hold a metal cartridge, and when one cartridge is shot, the cylinder automatically rotates (no extra hand or action required), readying the next chamber for firing."

You can one-hand rapid fire a Revolver without needing a 2nd hand for "fanning" at all. Which thus allows rapid-firing dual revolvers, if you so choose.

[ThinkMinty]

And for that matter, the Revolver makes "fanning" a complete non-issue as well:
"A revolver is a pistol with a revolving cylinder containing six chambers. Each chamber can hold a metal cartridge, and when one cartridge is shot, the cylinder automatically rotates (no extra hand or action required), readying the next chamber for firing."

You can one-hand rapid fire a Revolver without needing a 2nd hand for "fanning" at all. Which thus allows rapid-firing dual revolvers, if you so choose.

I know it's not mechanical, fanning just looks cool, and looking cool is a part of the Gunslinger's draw as a class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know it's not mechanical, fanning just looks cool, and looking cool is a part of the Gunslinger's draw as a class.
Running into battle with a gun in each hand also looks cool. (Fanning also isn't really relevant here, since it's just about re-cocking a gun, not reloading it)

[Psyren]

grarrg mentioned the Juggler - you can use that wording for this feat.

But you don't actually need homebrew to dual-wield as a gunslinger. Instead use Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit) - as long as you have Quick Draw and maintain at least 1 grit in your pool, you can holster a 1H firearm as a free action. Since you can now draw and holster as a free action, this gives you a free hand to reload with while the other gun is put away any time you want during your turn. The last piece of the puzzle is the Lightning Reload deed to make reloading a free action too. And because free actions can be performed anytime during a full-attack, you can holster, reload and draw all the way through your sequence. End result - full dual-wielding with reloading, no homebrew needed.

An example full attack sequence would be:

1) Fire both guns.
2) Holster Gun #2 as a free action, freeing your offhand to reload Gun #1 as a free action.
3) Holster Gun #1 as a free action, draw Gun #2 as a free action and reload that as a free action.
4) Draw Gun #1 as a free action. Now both guns are loaded and in your hands.
5) Repeat Step 1 until full-attack is complete.

[Abithrios]

If your GM is a jerk and asks you to demonstrate the motions needed to pull off that trick in six seconds in real life, you can tell them you are out of grit for the day. The limitations on free actions are to keep you from doing a thousand things, not a half dozen things.

As a side note, why the heck does a feat based on feinting, gun twirling, require an intimidation feat‽

[Th3N3xtGuy]

If your GM is a jerk and asks you to demonstrate the motions needed to pull off that trick in six seconds in real life, you can tell them you are out of grit for the day. The limitations on free actions are to keep you from doing a thousand things, not a half dozen things.

As a side note, why the heck does a feat based on feinting, gun twirling, require an intimidation feat‽

cause its scary to watch...

[Glorius Nippon]

Really should have responded earlier, regardless.

I knew about the gun twirling feat, fairly sure I talked about it in the op. Basically, I find it ridiculous that it takes 3 feats that, as someone who plays gunslinger frequently, aren't nearly as important as the other feats you could (should?) take. Especially when two weapon fighting is already so feat intensive.

Side note: Didn't mean to make it sound like my DM is awful, just wanted to give a feat that is reasonable enough to take, but also enough of a cost for the style.

Edit: Wow, even easier fix I just realized is to make the pistolero achetype get a form of juggling (from the Juggler bard archetype).

[Abithrios]

Side note: Didn't mean to make it sound like my DM is awful, just wanted to give a feat that is reasonable enough to take, but also enough of a cost for the style.


I didn't mean to imply that your DM is bad, it's just that tricks like this tend to attract the sort of "realism" that really just means that the only way to do cool things is to cast a spell. I have a deep seated dislike for such thinking. It is probably the reason why the feat requires dazzling display (because it's flashy so it must require something else that is flashy) and the reason why dazzling display requires weapon focus (because the only way to scare people in an area is to show off your technical skills with a weapon, and that is the only way they could think of to determine that is weapon focus).

[Taveena]

For what little it's worth, Dreamscarred Press's Mixed Combat feat allows you to stow a weapon as a free action (thus freeing a hand to reload as a free, THEN drawing as a free) with much less awkward prerequisites than Gun Twirling.