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Dragoon
2007-05-25, 12:54 AM
Would building an elven rogue to have spring attack be a good idea? Starting at level 5. Probably going to be using a rapier for the extra chance of critical. Not sure what my other equipment will be yet.

Thanks.

TheOOB
2007-05-25, 12:58 AM
That would generally be a very poor idea. Apart from the fact that spring attack is a generally bad feat (minor benefit, and requires one subpar feat and one crap feat), rogues need as many attacks as possible, and you can only make one attack w/spring attack. Every extra attack is an extra chance to add your sneak attack dice.

Dragoon
2007-05-25, 01:37 AM
Thanks, so would grabbing improved initiative and great fortitude be better ideas for feats?

TheOOB
2007-05-25, 01:44 AM
Improved initiative is decent, but great fortitude is pretty poor (at the very least get iron will first).

Generally speaking, its better to focus on feats that let you do things (like TWF, power attack, combat expertise, improved trip, ect) then feats that give passive bonuses.

Dragoon
2007-05-25, 01:48 AM
thanks for the ideas.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-25, 11:33 AM
i think it's a good idea. you could flank someone, sneak attack em, and get away all in one round.

Smiley_
2007-05-25, 11:43 AM
Never underestimate the power of bouncing around the room.

Its annoying when you are trying to take out a rouge that always ends up outside of your reach at the end of his movement, so, take other "minor" feats like run and such.

Attilargh
2007-05-25, 11:44 AM
i think it's a good idea. you could flank someone, sneak attack em, and get away all in one round.
...Or, alternatively, flank something and Sneak Attack it until it's dead.

Skirmishing characters like Spring Attack. Others, not so much. Not only do you fizzle a full attack, you also give them a potential free charge at you unless your DM has been considerate enough to provide some actual terrain.

Indon
2007-05-25, 11:55 AM
Skirmishing characters like Sneak Attack. Others, not so much. Not only do you fizzle a full attack, you also give them a potential free charge at you unless your DM has been considerate enough to provide some actual terrain.

Agreed here. Scouts are much better suited to Spring Attack than rogues are; A scout could actually get their precision damage by executing a Spring Attack, while a rogue still needs to be sneaky or invisible or flanking and loses out on a lot of their potential precision damage.

Theodoxus
2007-05-25, 12:06 PM
In a current game, I'm playing a rogue with exotic wp: spiked chain, finesse, and combat reflexes. From levels 5 (where we started) to 7 (currently), it's sucked. Never once, even with a massive threat range, have I used combat reflexes. Only get one attack a round with the chain - what started out as a decent (on paper) idea has become very gimped.

Fortunately, the DM (who hates chains with a passion, but let me use one because I never had before) let me enter a prestige class that emphasizes dagger work (similar to the whisperknife, but with bard spells). In the process, the DM also let me re-work my feats - he was feeling particularly generous. Well, let me say, that with Combat Expertise, TWF and Weapon Finesse, I am much more deadly. Two attacks a round, at only -2 to each is a whole lot of hurt when I'm flanking. Its a much more 'roguish' feel.

Trust me, limiting yourself to one attack will forever suck, and it will be that way forever unless you invest in something like dual strike.

NullAshton
2007-05-25, 12:17 PM
I actually think Spring Attack would be sort of a good idea, if you have enough ranks in tumble to not provoke AoOs from movement.

Here's why. The problem with melee rogues is that they're squishy. But with spring attack, you can stay out of range. This would work best with bonuses to speed. Boots of speed would work nicely, or get a wizard to cast Haste on you before encounters. You'd still be in charge range, but more importantly you won't be in their full attack range.

Person_Man
2007-05-25, 12:26 PM
Spring Attack is a very, very poor idea. Rogues are fragile, and should avoid being anywhere near the front line of combat. Spring Attack is a useless feat, with two other generally useless feats as requirements. Plus you only get ONE attack with Spring Attack, unless you invest a retarded number of feats in the Bounding Assault tree. Even then, you're not nearly as effective as anyone with Pounce (Psychic Warrior, Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, etc)

I would suggest the ranged combat tree. First, you get more attacks, which means more damage. Once you get Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot), every arrow you fire qualifies for Sneak Attack. Every round you'll be able to move and shoot, keeping you 30 feet away from your enemies. Just have a friend cast Greater Invisibility on you, or buy a Ring of Blinking. You'll be well protected, and your enemies will suffer from Sneak Attack damage from each of your arrows every round. Buy the most expensive magic bow you can (+1 Composite Long Bow of Flaming Acid Frost Wounding...) and have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your arrows. Keep some "special" arrows aside for enemies that need them: adamantine, cold iron, Bane, Disrupting, etc. Using these tactics, you will have versatile attacks, have a higher To-Hit and damage output then if you were just using a melee weapon, and you'll be much less likely to be hit then if you were standing anywhere near an enemy.

Using this tactic also means that you don't need many common feats that are weak when used by a Rogue: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, etc. You don't need them. If you get a cornered, just Tumble away and behind the party meatshield.

Dragoon
2007-05-25, 01:42 PM
I see, Spring Attack, bad, unless scout...

So try for the Greater Manyshot feat tree, would also taking precision shot be a good idea at some point?

dyslexicfaser
2007-05-25, 02:03 PM
Would flyby/imp flyby be more useful (if you're playing something with fly, of course) so you could end your turn in the air?

EDIT: I was also kind of wondering... why do passive feats like mobility suck compared to Combat Expertise?

Attilargh
2007-05-25, 02:12 PM
You'd still be giving up a full attack. However, it does improve one's survivability, as most people don't have a 24/7 flight ability.

One time I devised a Psychic Warrior NPC who would use Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) in concert with Spring Attack to lead the party on a merry chase across city roofs and over alleyways. He wouldn't be doing very much damage, but it would probably make for a very interesting encounter as the players would have to play it smart to get their hands on him.

Indon
2007-05-25, 02:13 PM
EDIT: I was also kind of wondering... why do passive feats like mobility suck compared to Combat Expertise?

Mobility in particular is not good because it's very circumstancial; it only raises your AC against AOO's, provoked by you moving, without you choosing to tumble to avoid the AOO completely.

Person_Man
2007-05-25, 02:14 PM
I see, Spring Attack, bad, unless scout...

So try for the Greater Manyshot feat tree, would also taking precision shot be a good idea at some point?

No, Spring Attack bad, period. Greater Manyshot is a Standard action. Thus a Scout can Move (qualifying for Skirmish) and fire multiple shots every round. His damage progression is much slower then the Rogue, but he doesn't have to worry about Greater Invisibility or some other way to qualify, and he gets a minor bonus to AC and Fort Saves, plus a somewhat better special abilities earlier in the class progression (Flawless Stride, Fast Movement, etc). But again, there is no reason for the squishy Scout to be making melee attacks.

There is no feat called Precision Shot. If you are referencing Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot, they yes, they are both good ideas. It's very, very common for you to fire directly into melee or through cover and concealment.

Flyby Attack is somewhat useful if you can get natural flight (Dragonborn, Raptorans, Half-Fey). You can move, take your Standard action Greater Manyshot, and then move slightly further away. But really, if you're flying 30 feet above your enemy, and extra 15ish feet that you might be able to put between you and your enemies isn't such a huge deal. But I've seen it used by builds with very high movement rates, basically moving them out of range of any possible attack. If you can pull it off, its a great combo. But keep in mind that a lot of games in D&D takes place in dungeons, where flight is difficult.

Dragoon
2007-05-25, 02:27 PM
Thanks for clearing it up, and yeah, I meant Precise Shot, my bad. This has been very enlightening for me.

Droodle
2007-05-25, 02:46 PM
No, Spring Attack bad, period. I don't think I agree with this. For a scout with (and, arguably, without) a reach weapon, Spring attack actually isn't bad as long as you don't just stop there. Take the full chain with Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz and now your scout gets 3 attacks with precision damage applied to all of them at a loss of just one attack (which just so happens to be the one that never hits anything, anyway). Pretty damn worth it, I'd say. This could be useful for certain fighter/rogue builds, but I agree that a rogue would be better off taking something else.

Shatteredtower
2007-05-25, 04:04 PM
Mobility in particular is not good because it's very circumstancial; it only raises your AC against AOO's, provoked by you moving, without you choosing to tumble to avoid the AOO completely.Tumble may not help when your movement provokes AoOs with any of the following actions:

1. Bull Rush
2. Crawling
3. Overrun
4. Running
5. Standing Up
6. Passing through terrain that doesn't allow movement while tumbling
7. Moving with a medium or greater load.

Tumbling only applies for movement through another creature's space or as part of normal movement, whereas Mobility applies to movement within a threatened area. One could argue that it's possible to crawl and Tumble at the same time, but that seems counterintuitive to disallowing tumbling through certain forms of terrain. Standing, however, is clearly movement within a threatened area, but not normal movement. You could take feats that let you avoid AoOs from bull rush or overrun attempts if you meet the Strength prerequisite, but that's two feats (plus Power Attack), and only if you have 13 Strength, rather than 13 Dexterity.

Arguably, you can't Tumble to enter the square of a creature you're grappling either, which means there's no way to avoid attacks of opportunity from other creatures that threaten that square, as that's not part of normal movement. Mobility also works better than Tumble if you have a climb speed (such as that granted by spider climb).

Tumble works great on level terrain against a single opponent, but diminishes in effect with each additional foe. Mobility does not have this problem, does not require a reduction in your movement, and can be a handy backup for those times in which you blow the Tumble check. This is particularly relevant to a character with uncanny dodge in cases that involve a number of unseen opponents lurking in the area. Specialized, sure, but we're seeing a lot of specialized cases here.

One other thing worth considering with Spring Attack and it's feat chain: Spring Attack makes tumbling around an opponent that much easier, by virtue of eliminating the defender from the list of creatures threatening you on the move. Roughly translated, that's one automatic success and a +2 bonus on all other Tumble checks for the round.

The trade-off is not as bad as some make it out to be. Spring Attack may leave you within charging distance of your target, but it leaves you out of full attack range for most creatures. However, charging distance does not necessarily make you a valid target for a charge, one reason to tumble over your tank and enemy, strike the flank, and flip back the same way, where the tank presents a nice obstacle. Naturally, you're going to need to boost your speed to make this work. Being able to drop back into concealment after your attack isn't a bad option either, if you can find (or bring) that resource to the fight.

You might not be able to go toe-to-toe with a tank by yourself, but there are a lot of non-tank adversaries out there: not every spellcaster has blur or similar defenses active at the start of the fight, and few have time to activate them once melee begins. As for the tanks, many of them have trouble holding up against a concerted attack by a tank and rogue double team for long. Even those that do are not going to automatically target the rogue, though it's likely if said rogue did most of the damage last round and looks more vulnerable than the tank.

Teamwork and preparation are critical to getting the most out of these feats. There are times that might be no good to you at all, but they're not so common as all that.

Indon
2007-05-25, 06:57 PM
1. Bull Rush
2. Crawling
3. Overrun
4. Running
5. Standing Up
6. Passing through terrain that doesn't allow movement while tumbling
7. Moving with a medium or greater load.

Well, a character that takes Tumble in the first place isn't likely to be Bull Rushing very much. Unfortunately, a character that Bull Rushes a lot isn't likely to take the Spring Attack line of feats; they'd be more likely to take, for instance, Improved Bull Rush (which prevents AOO's from your Bull Rush target), which is part of the Power Attack feat tree.

Crawling is a good point. Many campaigns don't include this sort of detailed maneuverability, but some do and frequently.

Overrunning already provokes an attack of opportunity, one which is avoided by Improved Overrun, which is also part of the Power Attack tree and something unlikely to be done often by someone who has Mobility, because they could just get Tumble and move through occupied spaces with a Tumble check.

Running is another good point.

I'm not entirely sure you'd recieve the Mobility AC bonus for standing up, since that's not movement through a threatened space; standing up provokes an AOO for standing up, explicitly, rather than implicitly provoking an AOO because it's movement.

Heavy rubble can be tumbled through at +5 difficulty. The only terrain that explicitly can't be tumbled through listed in the ability description is "Deep bog". That's pretty circumstancial.

The medium or higher load is another good point, though most agility-based meleers who would take spring attack generally try to avoid being under medium or higher load anyway so they can benefit from class features (Monk movement, Evasion, etc).

So, really, in many campaigns it honestly doesn't come up much, and for those whom it does come up for, they have less reason to get it because they need to invest in other feat trees instead.

Jasdoif
2007-05-25, 07:01 PM
The medium or higher load is another good point, though most agility-based meleers who would take spring attack generally try to avoid being under medium or higher load anyway so they can benefit from class features (Monk movement, Evasion, etc).As a point of interest (if not necessarily usefulness), a dwarf isn't restricted from tumbling by this, since encumberance doesn't reduce a dwarf's speed.

Shatteredtower
2007-05-26, 11:08 AM
Several points:

1. Improved Bull Rush only avoids an attack of opportunity from the defender. Others threaten the one making the bull rush normally.

2. Improved Overrun does not allow the attacker to avoid attacks of opportunity at all, neither from the defender nor any allies threatening the attacker.

3. Mobility's description says that it grants the bonus against attacks of opportunity when you move "out of or within a threatened area." "Within" includes "through", but it not limited to it, and therefore, Mobility applies when standing up from prone (or jumping without a running start).

4. While it's true that rogues and monks have many abilities that rely on them carrying no more than light encumbrance, there are times the option is taken from them by such Strength-sapping things as poison, the crippling strike class feature, shadows and similar creatures, or spells such as ray of enfeeblement, waves of exhaustion, and bestow curse. While several of these may also have a negative impact on Dexterity and thus deny the benefit of Mobility, having the feat expands your defensive options to include situations in which either one ability score or the other has been reduced. Besides, Mobility may be handy in those situations in which you wish to carry a fallen ally from the field, should things ever get so bad as that. (The point about dwarves is well made, however.)

5. It is true that every example I can give of times that Mobility is useful is specialized, applying in anywhere from 1-10% of all cases. However, there are a lot of these cases. Improved Bull Rush is only useful for bull rushes. Improved Overrun is only useful for overrun attempts. Improved Grapple only works with grappling. Meanwhile, Mobility is useful for all three forms of attack and in many other situations -- and combines with any of the three aforementioned feats. In other words, the total percentage of situations in which Mobility is useful is considerably higher overall.

People don't appreciate what Mobility can offer to barbarians, despite how well it complements fast movement, Jump as a class skill, and uncanny dodge. Don't underestimate how useful that can be against hidden opponents that would prefer to use attacks of opportunity instead of readied actions to attack someone that passes within striking distance. Many also ignore the feat's usefulness in combats involving incorporeal creatures.

Of course, the main problem people have with Mobility comes down to the belief that we should never, ever draw attacks of opportunity in any fashion. This misses out on a lot of tactical possibilities. Mobility is a bait card, using your movement to allow you or one of your allies to take another risky action at less risk than would otherwise be the case. For example:

1. You're a barbarian in a party whose light source has just been extinguished just as you're attacked by a group of creatures with darkvision. The halfling bard stored a sunrod in her backpack in case of such an eventuality, but retrieving it draw attacks of opportunity at a time she's without the benefit of her Dexterity bonus to AC. Your movement.

2. You face a character that has successfully disarmed both you and one of your allies. You move around the enemy, drawing the attack of opportunity before aiming a punch at his head (no AoO for an unarmed attack now), allowing your flanking ally to pick up her sword and attack at no additional risk to herself.

3. The party wizard is about to get you all out of here with teleport. While she's easily able to cast the spell on the defensive, using the spell on her friends draws a separate attack of opportunity. You grab a moment to run up and thumb your nose at the BBEG before dashing back to take advantage of the spell.

Not one of these tactics is guaranteed to work. Not only is it possible that your opponents might hit you (though it might be better that they hit you than your ally), but it's possible that your opponent won't take the bait -- or worse, has Combat Reflexes. Of course, if we take that view, sneak attack is worthless because of all the conditions that prevent it, Power Attack is worthless because you might get miss, and Improved Trip is worthless because your opponent might be perfectly at ease with the idea fighting you from a prone position. Risk and reward is often the name of the game.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-26, 11:17 AM
Spring attack is awesome with hide in plain sight for cheesy strikes out of nowhere every round with little chance of retaliation. But a pure rogue will not pick this ability up, so unless you find a way to get hide in plain sight or are using some sort of other trick (like with a spiked chain), spring attack is fairly useless. But the usefullness of that hide in plain sight/spring attack combo instantly outweighs the three burned feats you needed to get to it. Scout and shadowdancer are my favorite ways to obtain it. Ranger is decent as well.

Person_Man
2007-05-26, 12:21 PM
I don't think I agree with this. For a scout with (and, arguably, without) a reach weapon, Spring attack actually isn't bad as long as you don't just stop there. Take the full chain with Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz and now your scout gets 3 attacks with precision damage applied to all of them at a loss of just one attack (which just so happens to be the one that never hits anything, anyway). Pretty damn worth it, I'd say. This could be useful for certain fighter/rogue builds, but I agree that a rogue would be better off taking something else.

How are three attacks from Rapid Blitz better then four attacks from Greater Manyshot?

Also, you can't use Spring Attack for a Charge attack, so Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are out, as are Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Psionic Lion's Charge, and all the other useful melee combos that depend on Charge. And a Scout lacks the BAB necessary to get anything meaningful out of Power Attack.

Valdyr
2007-05-26, 12:53 PM
Can anyone give an argument FOR Spring Attack? Its always seemed pretty useless to me. The reason why you'd ever want it in the first place would be so that you could hit someone and then be far enough away so that when it gets to their initiative, they can't hit you. But when you move away after your spring attack, you provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square (although you get a +4 to AC because of Mobility). So it seems the feat only functions to rob you of Full Round Attacks and give the monster AoOs on you. Does anyone have a more glass-half-full view of this feat?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-26, 01:03 PM
Yes. I just gave one. It's an instance of invulnerability that requires spring attack to really function at it's peak. Also, spring attack doesn't give the enemy you attack an AoO at all.


Benefit
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Thus, the utility is in any instance where backing off after attacking is more important than dealing extra damage. Which is why it requires very, very specific combos (like the one I mentioned) to ever be good.

kpenguin
2007-05-26, 01:08 PM
Can anyone give an argument FOR Spring Attack? Its always seemed pretty useless to me. The reason why you'd ever want it in the first place would be so that you could hit someone and then be far enough away so that when it gets to their initiative, they can't hit you. But when you move away after your spring attack, you provoke an AoO for leaving a threatened square (although you get a +4 to AC because of Mobility). So it seems the feat only functions to rob you of Full Round Attacks and give the monster AoOs on you. Does anyone have a more glass-half-full view of this feat?

For one thing, spring attack doesn't provoke AoAs from the target.

I once fought a vampire that was maddeningly difficult because of spring attack. The vampie just waltzed on down a wall, attacked, and waltzed on back up. With Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, of course. Out of range from the barbarian's full attack, we were stuck with firing arrows and spells. Which, admittedly, was not so good... since the vamp also had a good amount of buffs on him.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-26, 01:12 PM
Ooh, there's a tricky usage. Gets me thinking- something with flight and wingover could make a very, very aggravating use of spring attack against land born foes.

Indon
2007-05-26, 01:22 PM
How are three attacks from Rapid Blitz better then four attacks from Greater Manyshot?

Also, you can't use Spring Attack for a Charge attack, so Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are out, as are Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Psionic Lion's Charge, and all the other useful melee combos that depend on Charge. And a Scout lacks the BAB necessary to get anything meaningful out of Power Attack.

I imagine it'd be more worthwhile with something that makes your attack a touch attack, such as a dazzling energy weapon. I'm pretty sure you can't put that on bows.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-26, 05:06 PM
There are three basic reasons why Spring Attack is a poor choice for Rogues:
Both prerequisite feats are worse than the benefits from Tumble, which a melee Rogue always has.
Feats are expensive for Rogues.
Rogues only do decent damage if they can sneak attack, and Spring Attack doesn't foster sneak attacks.
That said, there is one way to make Sneak Attack cost-effective for a Rogue: if you're going to enter the Shadowdancer prestige class, because it requires Sneak Attack's prerequisite feats also. One level of Shadowdancer grants the Supernatural version of Hide in Plain Sight, which means you can (with a good Hide check) spring (or tumble) adjacent to an enemy and attack them while remaining hidden.

If you've justified paying for Spring Attack in this way, here are some ways for a Rogue to make better use of the feat.
Get a sneak attack even when you fail your Hide check (or when no shadows are within 10') with the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick.
Get an extra attack during Spring Attack. Forget the feat-intensive Fighter path in PH2; you want high unarmed strike damage and the Snap Kick feat. A Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) will punch up your unarmed strikes.
For opponents with high AC, cast a touch attack spell via Use Magic Device and discharge it during a Spring Attack; you only need to beat the target's touch AC.

TheDarkOne
2007-05-26, 05:37 PM
Spring attack chain isn't a bad choice for a not completely combat focused rogue. If you want to dish out the big damage go twf, get a high con and dex or str and go to town on the enemy. Basically the sticking point is con, you need high HP to sit next to the bad guy and deal out the big damage so you can stay alive long enough for him to drop. If you can't get high con it's better for you to get in, hit and get out. Exposing your self to a charge isn't a large problem because your friends the fighter or cleric are going to be meleeing who ever you're hitting and the bad guy probably won't want to take an AOO to charge the annoying rogue that's darting around the room. If you're really worried about the charge, you might want to pick up hamstring too. If you're careful you shouldn't be attacked all that often if you're a spring attacking rogue(especially if you can increase your speed somehow)

The ranged rogue isn't a great idea either because you then need to catch someone flat footed to sneak attack, as flanking isn't an option(unless your party ranger has the alternate class feature from the PHBII, then it could work). Basically, you'll be able to sneak attack more with the spring attack approch then the ranged approch. (Improved invisability will help here, but it's still not as reliable, there's lots of relitively low level ways to see through invis)

In the right circumstances spring attack isn't a bad idea, but in others there's definately significantly better options.

Edit: I'd also like to point out, Curmudgeon, the spring attack does indeed make sneak attacking easier. It lets you move into, and out of again, more flanking positions then you would be able to other wise(even given maxed tumble, tumble you only move half your speed)

Curmudgeon
2007-05-27, 12:37 PM
I'd also like to point out, Curmudgeon, the spring attack does indeed make sneak attacking easier. It lets you move into, and out of again, more flanking positions then you would be able to other wise(even given maxed tumble, tumble you only move half your speed) You're overlooking some very important rules:
Accelerated Tumbling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm): You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a -10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.
Sprinting Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3): You can try to tumble past or through an opponent's space while running by accepting a -20 penalty on your Tumble check. Spring Attack only helps against the person you're attacking and is limited to moving your speed, while a good Tumble check helps against everyone and lets you move at your fastest. Tumble also lets you move through both allies and opponents without slowing down, while Spring Attack can't help in that regard.

Shatteredtower
2007-05-27, 04:59 PM
There are three basic reasons why Spring Attack is a poor choice for Rogues:[LIST]
Both prerequisite feats are worse than the benefits from Tumble, which a melee Rogue always has.

I've already shown why this is incorrect for Mobility. As for Dodge, it provides one thing Tumble cannot: a bonus to your touch AC at no cost to your attack bonus. A character with 5 ranks in Tumble gets a better bonus against all opponents while fighting defensively, but only by taking a -4 penalty on attack rolls. Meanwhile, the rogue with little to no chance of hurting enemies directly can draw enemy attention by moving past while taking a total defense action, relying on a +10 Dodge bonus to AC for protection against those attacks of opportunity thanks to Mobility, +11 for one. That's pretty good when you want to get your entire team around elder elementals, golems, or other hefty bodyguards standing between you and the BBEG, as long as your teammates remember to let you go first.

If one of your teammates, even a halfling, falls at the feet of the BBEG, Tumble won't give the option of avoiding an AoO if you should choose to grab your fallen comrade and flee. Mobility at least gives you the option of taking the AoO at a decreased risk so that someone else can grab the halfling and flee.

Furthermore, if you got all out on the attack and your opponent doesn't fall, Tumble can't do anything for you. Dodge can.

Tumble also doesn't let you move both before and after your attack... unless you have Spring Attack. Mobility adds little to that combination once you finally have a very good Tumble score... but again, that is not the only use you can get out of Mobility.


Rogues only do decent damage if they can sneak attack, and Spring Attack doesn't foster sneak attacks.

The first half of this claim ignores the option to use poison, though a number of the creatures immune to sneak attack are also immune to sneak attack. More to the point, however, it ignores the fact that a rogue does not have to cause damage to attack. Granted, tripping or disarming options work best at an expenditure of two more feats, which would bring us up to five for a 9th or 12th level character.

The second part of the claim is incorrect, however. Yes. the archer rogue can get a full attack routine of sneak attacks off at a target, but only when the target is flat-footed, not flanking. This can be great for the archer rogue with greater invisibility, but the resource cost is pretty expensive when it first becomes an option and is less likely to prove effective by the time it becomes affordable. Otherwise, it's limited to ambush effect, which is not that much more effective than Spring Attack would be. It works better if you're playing a solo, but if you're not, it drops off in efficacy by the second round.

Accelerated Tumble sounds good in theory, but a -10 penalty on a DC 15 check is unlikely to get you past even one opponent on favourable terrain at 6th level. Even an elf with maxed Dexterity and an item granting a +2 enhancement bonus to the score is only 50% likely to pull that off, dropping 10% against each additional opponent he tries to pass. There's certainly no way the elf is tumbling through an opponent's square at an accelerated rate at that level, and running past is out of the question entirely.

By 20th level, someone having done everything possible within the core rules to boost that's elf's Tumble modifier is looking at a +41 on the check: good enough to run without risk past three opponents without even having to roll. Even tumbling through at a running pace is 80% likely to work against the first creature in your way. Of course, this cost you two feats; take those out of the equation and you'll likely prefer to stick with accelerated tumbling and the option to Tumble unthreatened straight through the spaces occupied by three creatures without having to roll the check. Nice, but it doesn't help in all cases, and it took forever to reach this benefit. Besides, with Spring Attack, you'd be able to avoid attacks of opportunity from one more opponent, and have less chance of being hit by any others your Tumble check wasn't good enough to overcome.

(Excuse me: I overlooked the importance of combining a rogue's skill mastery with Tumble for cases like this, when even accelerated tumbling is likely to get you past as many opponents as necessary in most encounters. That requires the selection of an option even rarer than feats, however, and that very same option could instead be exchanged for a bonus feat.)

Also, the problem with Tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity is that it's not very effective at drawing attacks of opportunity either. Diverting attention away from an ally that's been tripped or who is trying to remove a sundered weapon from a locked gauntlet may be options worth keeping in mind, but there are also offensive strategies that can benefit from drawing the attack of opportunity.

Karmic Strike assures you a chance of lashing out against someone who hit you even if Mobility failed, and since you're already halfway through the Whirlwind Attack chain anyway by the time you get Karmic Strike, you may as well go the distance. Robilar's Gambit is even better once you're of the level to take it, since it requires Combat Reflexes and works even if your opponent misses you, whereas Karmic Strike only grants you an attack of opportunity if you're hit. Mobility and Robilar's Gambit cancel each other out for AC modifiers, but you've still got the bonus for Dodge against one foe. You're risking more damage than usual along the way, but if that offers you more openings to use sneak attacks at your full base attack bonus, so much the better.

Bounding Assault has already been discussed, but I prefer the combination of Adaptable Flanker, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Robilar's Gambit, Spring Attack, and Vexing Flanker. That's an incredibly expensive combination, one that calls for either a couple of fighter levels or the decision to take a bonus feat as one or more of your special abilities if you want to pull it off before 18th level (15th for a human), and it really calls for you to team up with a Large creature (preferably wielding a spiked chain). Adaptable Flanker and Vexing Flanker aren't required, however; I just think the combination is more fun. Without them, the combination can really rough up any opponents you know to have Combat Reflexes if you manage to surprise them, because they are still flat-footed even as you're drawing attacks of opportunity to rush past them.

Spring Attack won't let you charge, but it doesn't require you to withdraw from your opponent's threatened area either, so long as you move before and after the attack. That lets you step from concealment to attack, then back in afterward.

(Incidentally, anyone with concealment doesn't need to Tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity either. Blur generally trumps Mobility and Tumble for that purpose. However, I've already provided several cases in which that would prove counterproductive to your short-term goals.)

Droodle
2007-05-28, 01:15 AM
How are three attacks from Rapid Blitz better then four attacks from Greater Manyshot?

Also, you can't use Spring Attack for a Charge attack, so Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are out, as are Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Psionic Lion's Charge, and all the other useful melee combos that depend on Charge. And a Scout lacks the BAB necessary to get anything meaningful out of Power Attack.A strength based scout with a reach weapon and some fighter levels (or a good PrC) in the mix could make it work quite well. Especially since he gets an attack of opportunity when his opponent tries to retaliate. True, it isn't better than a ranged build, but few things are.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-28, 07:58 AM
Would flyby/imp flyby be more useful (if you're playing something with fly, of course) so you could end your turn in the air?
After your tumble skill is high enough to comfortably make the checks yes, mostly because it has less prerequisites. A flying level 9 rogue with flyby attack, IUS and snapkick is worlds better than a spring attack rogue (who will pretty much have to dip fighter to get enough feats to get snap kick anytime soon).

Bounding assault and Rapid blitz are nice and all, but only the first is available to a pure rogue and only at level 16 ... the latter won't ever be available (can't meet the BAB requirement).

Curmudgeon
2007-05-28, 06:36 PM
Tumble may not help when your movement provokes AoOs with any of the following actions:

1. Bull Rush There's no reason why your couldn't Tumble as part of a bull rush or a charge, unless you've constructed an overly narrow definition of "normal movement". Moving on land in a straight line seems like the very definition of "normal" to me. Most DMs take "normal movement" to mean anything that takes you out of your square using a motive form for which you have a listed speed.

2. Crawling I agree with this one, but unless a +4 dodge bonus makes you invulnerable, I don't see crawling as a particularly viable tactic.

3. Overrun Again, you should be able to Tumble just fine.

4. Running Definitely not the case. See Complete Adventurer regarding "Sprinting Tumble".

5. Standing Up It's questionable that Mobility will help here, either. You're not changing your square, so for "you move out of or within a threatened area" to apply requires a DM to treat a non-moving move action as "you move".

6. Passing through terrain that doesn't allow movement while tumbling That's only deep bogs, AFAIK.

7. Moving with a medium or greater load. That's only the case "if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot". Dwarves or those with the (inexpensive) easy travel armor enhancement can still Tumble just fine.

Standing, however, is clearly movement within a threatened area, but not normal movement. I don't see it as either "movement" or "normal movement". It's a non-moving move action. And while the benefits of Mobility are questionable, it's very clear that Tumble will help by letting you stand as a free action.

Arguably, you can't Tumble to enter the square of a creature you're grappling either, which means there's no way to avoid attacks of opportunity from other creatures that threaten that square, as that's not part of normal movement. Mobility also works better than Tumble if you have a climb speed (such as that granted by spider climb). Again, your basic argument is premised on an overly restrictive view of what "normal" movment covers. If you've got a listed climb speed, climbing is a normal type of movement for you -- that's exactly what having a listed speed for that type of movement means.

Tumble works great on level terrain against a single opponent, but diminishes in effect with each additional foe. Mobility does not have this problem, does not require a reduction in your movement, and can be a handy backup for those times in which you blow the Tumble check. Your "level terrain" arguement is weak, as non-level just means a higher DC for the Tumble check. And Tumble also requires no reduction in your movement -- just a higher DC.

Mobility has some benefits compared to Tumble, but deep bogs, crawling, and other movement of a type where you don't have a listed speed make for too few situations to want the feat for its own merits.