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Jack_of_Spades
2007-05-25, 01:37 AM
I'm trying to think of what would be a good party for what I call The Dire Wolf Challenge. Four level three fight 3 Dire wolves. When those wolves die, they are replaced by three more. The goal is to kill, or incapacitate, as many as possible. Right now, I think that three Fighter 2 Ranger 1 characters using longspears and spiked chains would work well.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-25, 01:50 AM
3 level 1 Warlocks with the winged template.

Just fly and Eldritch Blast away all day.

kpenguin
2007-05-25, 01:53 AM
Heck, anything that can get off the ground will probably do well. Sorcerers or wizards with levitate might work well.

Renx
2007-05-25, 02:03 AM
I think the winged template can fly on their own, no spells needed, while wiz/sorc levitate runs out of juice.

How about a ranger 1 rogue 2 with a longbow, replenishing quiver, boots of flying and ring of invisibility? Sneak attack!

Deel
2007-05-25, 02:09 AM
I think the winged template can fly on their own, no spells needed, while wiz/sorc levitate runs out of juice.

How about a ranger 1 rogue 2 with a longbow, replenishing quiver, boots of flying and ring of invisibility? Sneak attack!

Well, it's easy without Wealth by Level guidelines, just give any character Wings of Flying and a Longbow + Infinite Quiver, proficient or not, they could still kill an infinite number of wolves in an infinite time period.

Doing it by wealth by level... yeah, Warlock + Flying Template is the only infinite one I can think of.

Greyen
2007-05-25, 06:52 AM
Where would one find the flying template?

Ikkitosen
2007-05-25, 07:07 AM
Hopefully near the monkey entry in the MM..? :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-25, 03:00 PM
I was told it was in Savage species but I haven't checked.

LotharBot
2007-05-25, 03:15 PM
Depends on the terrain, time pressure, etc.

Can the party engage the wolves from, say, up a tree or on a rooftop? Then they can go until the ammo runs out.

Do you have a ranger or druid with wild empathy and really good charisma? Then they can basically turn the dire wolves into allies.

Do they have to engage in melee? Make sure your Rangers take Animals as favored enemy. Get a heavily armored tank and have other characters spring attack (2 levels of fighter will give enough bonus feats for this.)

Rangers, by the way, can use wands of cure light/moderate/serious wounds.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-25, 03:40 PM
Hopefully near the monkey entry in the MM..? :smallbiggrin:

Yes exactly, right between the Invisible and Super templates. :smallamused:



Winged Creature template, page 137, Savage Species.

Koji
2007-05-25, 03:54 PM
If I was running this and someone took something as cheesy as the winged template, I'd replace the wolves with advanced dire bats.

Warlocks are where it's at for this challenge.

Yeti
2007-05-25, 08:48 PM
Four Crusaders could hold almost as long as the Warlocks.I mean Crusaders are even better then Monks at not dieing(and they can kill the wolves too)

ghost_warlock
2007-05-25, 09:22 PM
I think the dragonfire adept (Dragon Magic) can use its breath weapon unlimited/day (although they may have the "wait 1d4 rounds between" issue). A party of dragonfire adepts could pull off the same trick as the warlock if you added the template.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-25, 09:38 PM
Hmm... how could four Wizards do it...

Well, if pooling recources is permitted....

The four Wizards pool their wealth to get two Lesser Metamgic Rods of Extend Spell.

In their 2nd level spell slots, they all prepare two Rope Tricks. The spend their first level spell slots on Magic Missile (or other low-level ranged damage spell of choice).

The first thing they all do is hide in a rod-extended Rope Trick way up in the air.

They climb down the rope just far enough to Magic Missle the Dire Wolves.

Once they're out of Magic Missile spells, they all retreat into the rope trick and rest until shortly before the duration expires.

When it gets close (near 6 hour mark), they climb down the rope just far enough that they can cast another Rope Trick (Extended via Rod) nearby (completely in the air) and switch over to the other rope (keeping a hand on the "old" rope until the duration expires). Their rest is interrupted, so it adds an hour to the required rest time (9 hours total).

They then stop and prepare spells again (10 hours - but that's okay; two Extended Rope Tricks, at 3rd level, make for 12 hours - we've got leeway).

They then climb down the rope far enough to zap away all their Magic Missile spells.

They then make another Rod-extended Rope Trick nearby (again, completely up in the air) and keep repeating this indefinately (well, until they run out of food - let's make them Elan Wizards, for Repletion, just to be on the safe side).

Each generic Wizard has two 2nd level spell slots (Int 13 in a Wizard? Not going to happen). Whoever casts the "middle" Rope Trick is out a slot for the next preparation (as it was cast within the last 8 hours), but that's okay - with four Wizards, we've got eight 2nd level spell slots to play with, and we'll only need five of them at a time. Each Rope Trick lasts 6 hours, and they overlap slightly (call it an hour) so they need Five Extended Rope Tricks per day. The rods have a total of six charges per day, we're expending five. No problem. They're elans, and so do the Repletion thing to avoid the need for food and water - no rations to worry about. They're elans, and have no maximimum age. They get their sleep (if only five hours at a time) so they're not subject to Forced March rules or other fatigue-type stuff.

They aren't getting them very quickly, but they can keep it up, quite literally, forever.

Edit:
Of course, once they've successfully slain 14 of them, they're not 3rd level Wizards, but 4th level Wizards. Aftery they've successfully slain 20, they're 5th level Wizards.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-25, 10:43 PM
Wizards, is there anything they can't do better than everyone else?

Citizen Joe
2007-05-25, 10:55 PM
Actually, once the wizards are done shooting off their magic missiles and then hide, the wolves would wander off. Thus, although the mages wouldn't die, they also wouldn't register any kills.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-26, 12:14 AM
Actually, once the wizards are done shooting off their magic missiles and then hide, the wolves would wander off. Thus, although the mages wouldn't die, they also wouldn't register any kills.

That assumes that there's somewhere to go.

I'll bet on either the 'saders or 'locks. The 'saders are probably best of those on the ground; nice, constant healing (Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike), assuming they hit reliably, that's 8 points of healing + 1 Crusader's Strike (for 1d6+3) per round, so an average of about 14.5 healing per round.

Combine that with Stone Power (which, with their delayed damage pool, allows them to knock three points off their attack to heal themselves five, provided they took the damage in the previous round).

Give them reach weapons and the ability to fall back from the wolves, and they've got an AoO per round, so that adds up to 16 points of healing.

Yep, I'd say human Crusader3, with Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Stone Power; if playing with flaws, toss on Hold the Line for more AoOs and take a low-impact flaw, like Shaky. Maneuvers don't matter particularly, but Stone Bones and Crusader's Strike are must-haves; give them Longspears. They need to either pump or dump AC to be effective here; an AC below 20 will just get them killed. Luckily, full plate gives a +8 and leaves room for +1 from dexterity and possibly another +1 from a buckler. I'd put more effort into squeezing out AC than that, though.

I'd probably also give them one of the strikes (Vanguard's Strike and Leading the Attack) that gives allies +4 to hit after they hit; these stack, so they'll always be useful.

Putting them in Iron Guard's Glare instead of Martial Spirit gives them all an effective +8 or +12 to AC, provided that they can cover eachother, but denies them a good bit of their healing. Having two in Iron Guard's Glare take total defense, while the others wail on the wolves in Martial Spirit, gives three attackers (4 points of healing), probably an average of a Crusader's Strike every round (1d6+3 healing), since they can switch stances as a swift action, for an average of 10 points of healing per round to distribute (not counting the healing that they're able to pull out of Stone Power, so 2 chunks of two and one chunk of 6 to distribute, plus five points for each attacking crusader), plus a universal +8 AC. Combat Reflexes + Stand Still allows them to hold the wolves off at a distance for a time, too, making them not need healing, but isn't strictly necessary.

Yep, they're doing pretty well for themselves. They probably won't actually be able to move that much, and the bucklers just get in the way, so let's drop those and their AoO feats (Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line). If playing with flaws, just drop Hold the Line and replace with Combat Expertise. Regardless, they need Combat Expertise. Combat reflexes helps them hold wolves at bay, but isn't strictly necessary; besides, it necessitates giving ground to keep getting AoOs. Extra Granted Maneuver might be a good alternative to Combat Reflexes, though, if playing with flaws.

The one defending then can, instead of using Total Defense, make one attack using Stone Power and Combat Expertise for 3 each, while fighting defensively (+5 AC).

Now, for their attack bonus; a +6 (3 BAB, 2 strength, 1 masterwork weapon) is respectable, but not great; they hit on a 6; they can get an additional +1 to hit from Furious Counterstrike (hitting on a 5). Still, since they will get every readied maneuver over four rounds, in an average turn we can probably count on a Vanguard Strike and a Leading the Attack, or two of one (Vanguard Strike is unnamed, so it probably stacks; Leading the Attack is morale, so it doesn't stack with itself, but it does with VS), for a +8 bonus, giving them +14 to hit (+15 with FC). This matches the Dire Wolf's AC exactly, allowing them to sacrifice a bit for Stone Power even when not damaged.

So, human Crusader3
Maneuvers Readied: Crusader's Strike, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Foehammer or Mountain Hammer (for damage output, when they don't have a teamwork maneuver granted), Stone Bones
Stances Known: Iron Guard's Glare, Martial Spirit
Feats: Stone Power, Stand Still, Combat Expertise, Extra Granted Maneuver*, Combat Reflexes*
Flaws: Shaky, some other low-impact flaw (Slow, Poor Reflexes, etc.)
*Remove when not using flaws
Ability Scores: Str 15, Dex 12 (default array)
Equipment: Full plate, Masterwork Longspear

AC: 19; assuming two are in Iron Guard's Glare, enemies take -8 to hit, giving an effective AC of 27 (wolves need a 16 to hit); if all use Iron Guard's Glare as standard stance and all threaten all wolves (standing in a square, and even that leaves the corners open), effective AC of 31, restricting the wolves to hitting on a natural 20; attacks from the corners need a 16 and can be quickly rebuked by 5' stepping and counterattacking. Attacks at +6 for 1d8+3 damage per attack; if damaged, gains +1 to hit and damage on counterattack; Foehammer and Mountain Hammer add +2d6 damage to those attacks.

Actually, I think this defensive formation is the way to go; make them need a natural 20 (or tactics and a 16) to hit you, and pound them with the level 2 maneuvers until damaged, at which point switch to Crusader's Strike until it's healed.

For this tactic, swap out Combat Expertise, or Combat Reflexes, or Stand Still, since you won't be using any of those very much, for Power Attack, to be able to add +6 damage to certain attacks (probably when using Stone Bones).

Now, for another possible tactic, you need Douse the Flames. Here, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Hold the Line come into their own. The crusaders set up a line against the oncoming wolves, or a square if they're in all directions (actually, form the square. They circle). They then use Hold the Line to get a free attack against each oncoming wolf, Stand Still to then stop them in their tracks, and pound at reach before taking a 5' step back, forcing the wolf to provoke another AoO (Stand Still) before attacking again.

If the wolves get into melee, they are then Doused and the Crusaders retreat to establish their formation again, getting a fresh set of AoOs.

I think that just forming a square and holding position might be the better tactic, though, so use the above build; I don't think the AoO monster is quite as good.

Hallavast
2007-05-26, 07:21 AM
Wizards, is there anything they can't do better than everyone else?

Healing and disabling repeating traps.

Oh, and make sure those flying warlocks are warforged so they don't have to sleep.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-26, 08:10 AM
Dire wolves are not mindless killing things. They use tactics... pack tactics and flanking. Don't forget their nasty advantage of grappling with very strong trip attack on a bite. Tactically speaking, I don't believe that they would strike in a way that all your defenders could get in AoO's. In fact, I don't think you would get an AoO for it moving in to attack. You need to LEAVE a threatened square to provoke an AoO. However, due to its large size the wolf only enters squares until it is right next to the defender, it never leaves a threatened square, thus no AoO. As for the climb tree, flight trick, etc. The wolves have a base move of 50 and they aren't mindless killing things!! If you get attacks on them and they can't attack back, they will retreat... and probably faster than you can fly. That means you need at LEAST one bait so as to encourage them to stay in range.