Pathfinder Swashbuckler

[Suteinu]

I'm about to play my first game of Pathfinder. I'd like to play a classic sword-and-buckler man ("buckler" here meaning "light steel shield" in d20 terms.) I've been looking over the Pathfinder material and I like the look of the Ronin and the Inspired Blade archetypes, as well as the dueling blade, but I'm not sure how to get what I want out of a light-fighting sword-and-buckler combo in this system. I'm not looking to break the system or anything, just to have fun with the idea.

My GM will likely allow me to exchange buckler for light shield proficiency. Two-weapon fighting is on the table, for easy back-and-forth between shield-as-defense and shield-as-offense. What I really need help with, I guess, is choosing special abilities, alternate special abilities, and feats. We start at Level 1 and I expect we'll go to Level 12 or so.

[bobthehero]

Have you considered using the actual swashbuckler class? That is, if your DM lets you play Advanced Class Guide.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I second the swashbuckler. You can't really attack with a buckler, though, that I know of. The swashbuckler class is pretty strict with what you can do, but what it does it does well.

[avr]

If you want to be able to shield bash then the swashbuckler class isn't for you. A ranger of some kind might work, they can get some nice feats early (see the weapon and shield combat style) and they have an incentive to fight in lighter armor.

[DedWards]

I can give you a guide to make a Fighter that uses sword and shield, attacking with both.

[ThinkMinty]

I can give you a guide to make a Fighter that uses sword and shield, attacking with both.

There's a class for that, it's called the Brawler. They're the only ones proficient with shields as weapons.

[Vhaidara]

To everyone recommending Swashbuckler


the Inspired Blade archetype

That's a swashbuckler archetype. I'm pretty sure he knows about it.

Now, IIRC, pretty much nothing in Swashbuckler actually works if your offhand is in use, for anything. Including a buckler. If you want to do the double bash, the best class in first party is honestly Ranger, since you can get the Shield Master feat very early, which makes it a surprisingly effective combat style (even without the stupid reading that lets you Power Attack at no penalty while using the feat)

[DedWards]

There's a class for that, it's called the Brawler. They're the only ones proficient with shields as weapons.

Actually, anyone proficient with shields may use them as an off hand weapon by doing a Shield Bash. In the Core rule book, pg 152, it states on both heavy and light shield that you can use a shield to perform a Shield Bash, treating your shield as a martial bludgeoning weapon. The damage for this is shown Table 6-4: weapons on pg 142.

The Fighter build I'm talking about is a Two-Weapon Fighting Fighter that uses a one handed weapon in his primary hand and the shield as its off hand weapon.

[ThinkMinty]

Actually, anyone proficient with shields may use them as an off hand weapon by doing a Shield Bash. In the Core rule book, pg 152, it states on both heavy and light shield that you can use a shield to perform a Shield Bash, treating your shield as a martial bludgeoning weapon. The damage for this is shown Table 6-4: weapons on pg 142.

The Fighter build I'm talking about is a Two-Weapon Fighting Fighter that uses a one handed weapon in his primary hand and the shield as its off hand weapon.

Imagine that without the penalty, though. Brawler's Flurry lets you mix and match Sword, Board, Elbows, Knees, and Toes. Heck, you can use the Shield as the primary if you want to.

I just like the flexibility, I guess?

[Psyren]

There's a class for that, it's called the Brawler. They're the only ones proficient with shields as weapons.


Imagine that without the penalty, though. Brawler's Flurry lets you mix and match Sword, Board, Elbows, Knees, and Toes. Heck, you can use the Shield as the primary if you want to.

I just like the flexibility, I guess?

Wait, hold on - if a shield bash makes you "treat the shield as a martial bludgeoning weapon," and you're using a class like Fighter that is proficient with all martial weapons, why would you not be considered proficient? It seems to me that any class that is proficient with all martial weapons would not take a non-proficiency penalty on a shield bash. You could even make an argument for a class that is proficient with martial weapons but not shields, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Baroncognito]

Now, IIRC, pretty much nothing in Swashbuckler actually works if your offhand is in use, for anything. Including a buckler.

That was true in the initial playtest of the swashbuckler, but was fixed. Both precise strike and slashing grace carve out exceptions for Bucklers (being as bucklers do not occupy the hand).

[Suteinu]

Where is Brawler? Is it a class unto itself, or is it an archetype?

[Vhaidara]

Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler) is a hybrid class, much like Swashbuckler

[DedWards]

Where is Brawler? Is it a class unto itself, or is it an archetype?

It's a Hybrid Class from the Advanced Class Guide.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler


Dam, Keledrath beat me to it.

[DedWards]

Imagine that without the penalty, though. Brawler's Flurry lets you mix and match Sword, Board, Elbows, Knees, and Toes. Heck, you can use the Shield as the primary if you want to.

I just like the flexibility, I guess?

What penalty are you talking about? Brawler is a hybrid class with fighter and monk as the parent classes. Fighter being a parent class is probably why Brawler is proficient with shields in the first place.

[ThinkMinty]

What penalty are you talking about? Brawler is a hybrid class with fighter and monk as the parent classes. Fighter being a parent class is probably why Brawler is proficient with shields in the first place.

Unless I read Brawler wrong, they have a TWF thing without the whole offhand limitation.

[Vhaidara]

Unless I read Brawler wrong, they have a TWF thing without the whole offhand limitation.

I think it's more that their version of Flurry of Blows instead functions as TWF. And you get full Str mod to damage with all attacks. Nowhere does it say anything about ignoring TWF penalties.

[Novawurmson]

Is 3rd party allowed? Because the Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) with Buckler Bash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Buckler-Bash-Combat-) is pretty great at smacking people in the face with a buckler.

[DedWards]

Unless I read Brawler wrong, they have a TWF thing without the whole offhand limitation.

It doesn't specifically say they don't get the penalties, so they do have the penalties. Though full STR on the off hand without having to waste a feat on Double Slice is nice. That and not needing the high DEX that TWF feats require.


I think it's more that their version of Flurry of Blows instead functions as TWF. And you get full Str mod to damage with all attacks. Nowhere does it say anything about ignoring TWF penalties.

It is the Brawler's version of flurry, it's even called Brawler's Flurry.

[Vhaidara]

Yes. Like I said, "more that their version of flurry".

[Psyren]

Unless I read Brawler wrong, they have a TWF thing without the whole offhand limitation.

They still take TWF attack penalties, including the increased penalty if the offhand weapon isn't light. But since you can make all the TWF attacks with a single weapon anyway, there's no reason to use two unless you're shield-bashing with Shield Mastery (which reduces the offhand to nothing.)

[Florian]

@Shield Bash: Using a buckler is not an option, as you can only use light shields as bludgeoning weapons (beaides the Thunderstriker archetype).

[DedWards]

They still take TWF attack penalties, including the increased penalty if the offhand weapon isn't light. But since you can make all the TWF attacks with a single weapon anyway, there's no reason to use two unless you're shield-bashing with Shield Mastery (which reduces the offhand to nothing.)

This is pretty much the idea for the Fighter build I suggested.


@Shield Bash: Using a buckler is not an option, as you can only use light shields as bludgeoning weapons (beaides the Thunderstriker archetype).

Not true, Heavy Shields can also be used for Shield Bash (just reread it in the core book).

[Psyren]

Not true, Heavy Shields can also be used for Shield Bash (just reread it in the core book).

I think what he meant to say was "shield bashing starts at Light"

[Florian]

@Dedwards:

Correct but irrelevant when its only concerning the buckler ;)
(I just wanted to clarrify that all talk about using a buckler in this way is meaningless outside using said archetype)

[Chromascope3D]

The whole being unable to bash with a buckler comes from the game designers (erroneously) thinking that bucklers (and shields in general) are strapped to your forearms, which isn't true. You held them in your hand (https://grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/image13.png), and you could punch with them if you needed to. Really, the typical swashbuckler would usually always have a buckler or dagger in their offhand; the idea that they only ever used a single blade in their mainhand starts and ends with Hollywood.

So, I would houserule that they do the same damage as gauntlets.