A Game Design Thread

[Grinner]

I've noticed a number of individuals about who seem keen on the idea of game design, some vocational and others avocational, but interest all the same. I'm curious as to whether or not there's enough interest here to sustain a discussion thread on the matter.

To start, I'd like to know what tools you like to use, and what you're doing with them.

I recently learned how to use GameMaker: Studio after getting it through the Humble Bundle. I certainly consider myself competent enough in programming to write games using compiled languages, but with limited time and attention-span available, it's better to spend more time working on the gameplay and less on the software running it.

It was remarkably easy to use after getting a handle on how Sprites, Objects, and Rooms are connected. I tried compiling the Wasteland Kings source, and it worked to a degree. However, there's a bug in the crossbow, and I wasn't able to fix it.

I haven't really done anything with GameMaker beyond experiment. I had been thinking about trying to create an RTS or something similar, but I've since gotten sidetracked by school and a programming project. Plus, I wasn't really sure where to start the design. Hopefully once I smooth out a parsing bug I'm working on, I'll be able to finish up the programming project and move on.

[NichG]

Mostly these days for games I use Javascript/HTML5, with WebGL if I need 3D. I'd probably be using Unity if the editor ran on Linux. I used to use C++, but porting to other platforms gets tedious.

[Rosstin]

I make a ton of games, I'm interested in such a thread

[danzibr]

I use GameMaker: Studio too! I'm still a novice at it: I'm following some tutorials on YouTube and a course on Udemy. I'm having lots of fun, learning lots. I plan on posting some demos here (like, on GitP, probably in this very thread) when I get them up and running. I don't have much time, so it'll probably be next summer.

I'm totally open to suggestions when it comes to learning GM:S.

Oh, and I messed around with RPG Maker a decent bit, and simply didn't like it.

[Grinner]

I make a ton of games, I'm interested in such a thread

Yes. I think I have your game design flowchart sitting in my downloads folder.


I use GameMaker: Studio too! I'm still a novice at it: I'm following some tutorials on YouTube and a course on Udemy. I'm having lots of fun, learning lots. I plan on posting some demos here (like, on GitP, probably in this very thread) when I get them up and running. I don't have much time, so it'll probably be next summer.

I'm totally open to suggestions when it comes to learning GM:S.

I take it you've used Shaun Spaulding's tutorials, then? I noticed that he tends to emphasize the use of GML. I've really only used the drag & drop system for programming game logic. GML is pretty straightforward as far as scripting languages go, but there's a thousand little things you need to know to really be able to use it.

Say, while I've got your attention, have you gotten the built-in physics system working? I tried, but my game would either freeze up or the player Object would fall through other Objects.


Oh, and I messed around with RPG Maker a decent bit, and simply didn't like it.

RPG Maker is bit like Game Guru and Ren'Py. It's optimized to do one genre (JRPGs) extremely easily, and it's a pain for anything else. I actually kind of like engines like those, since they make it extremely easy to knock specific ideas together in the space of a few hours.

Now dealing with the resulting horror vacui is another matter altogether.

[danzibr]

I take it you've used Shaun Spaulding's tutorials, then? I noticed that he tends to emphasize the use of GML. I've really only used the drag & drop system for programming game logic. GML is pretty straightforward as far as scripting languages go, but there's a thousand little things you need to know to really be able to use it.
Actually Benjamin Anderson/HeartBeast. I'll look into Shaun Spaulding fellow though (in fact, I may have seen a video or two by him, but I don't know the name off the top of my head).

Say, while I've got your attention, have you gotten the built-in physics system working? I tried, but my game would either freeze up or the player Object would fall through other Objects.
Why yes. In one test game I've used the built-in physics with great success. In the other I coded it by hand (well, watching a tutorial).

RPG Maker is bit like Game Guru and Ren'Py. It's optimized to do one genre (JRPGs) extremely easily, and it's a pain for anything else.
I'd go a bit further and say they do one specific type of JRPG quite well. If you wish to deviate, like use a different combat system or whatnot, it's a huge hassle. You can make your own script or use somebody else's, but then you have compatibility to worry about. In fact, when I first started doing scripting in RMXP, I switched to GM:S. I figured if I'm going to gut RMXP so much, I might as well use a system that lets me do it from scratch.

EDIT: Looked up Shaun Spalding. I actually played Another Perspective, and perusing his tutorials, I think I'll watch one or two of them. Not the super beginner stuff, but he has some things I've been interested in.

Right now what's really separating me from making an actual game is an ignorance of menus. Right now I'm in part 14 of a 20-part tutorial, and 18 is on menus. Almost there...

[Rosstin]

Yes. I think I have your game design flowchart sitting in my downloads folder.
:D I'm glad you liked it

I have an iOS game I'm testing right now if anyone is interested. It's called "MONSTR: Tinder For Monsters". A very silly little chunk of content, mocking/celebrating online dating. If you send me your email address I can send you a build. You have to download TestFlight onto your iPhone then use the email code to download the game.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/title.png http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/swipes2.png http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/tinyshots_0007_Background-copy.png http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/tinyshots_0002_Layer-5.png

[Rosstin]

"MONSTR: Tinder For Monsters" is out for iPhone! Yay! We released our game (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monstr/id1035034599?mt=8)!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monstr/id1035034599?mt=8

It's a gif now: http://i.imgur.com/KigwnPA.gif (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monstr/id1035034599?mt=8)

[Grinner]

"MONSTR: Tinder For Monsters" is out for iPhone! Yay! We released our game (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monstr/id1035034599?mt=8)!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/monstr/id1035034599?mt=8

Congratulations. :smallsmile: I giggled when I first saw it.

[Rosstin]

Congratulations. :smallsmile: I giggled when I first saw it.

Thanks! Now on to the next project...

[Rosstin]

So now I'm in the phase where I start brainstorming my next project. I'm thinking of doing either a Paper Mario style RPG battle system, or possibly a narrative-driven game with quicktime events and more game-like elements, like a Telltale game (we tried to do this with Queen At Arms but we didn't quite get there, the game was just too big for that kind of TLC).

I'm not sure what framework to use for this. If I end up wanting to build something nice, it's convenient to have it be a little more cross-platform. Like if it can also be played on computer. So that says "Unity" to me. But building something directly into iOS is also an option.

[danzibr]

So now I'm in the phase where I start brainstorming my next project. I'm thinking of doing either a Paper Mario style RPG battle system, or possibly a narrative-driven game with quicktime events and more game-like elements, like a Telltale game (we tried to do this with Queen At Arms but we didn't quite get there, the game was just too big for that kind of TLC).

I'm not sure what framework to use for this. If I end up wanting to build something nice, it's convenient to have it be a little more cross-platform. Like if it can also be played on computer. So that says "Unity" to me. But building something directly into iOS is also an option.
I was actually going to ask how you made your games.

Me, I've *only* messed with RPG Maker (various incarnations) and GameMaker: Studio. I've heard a lot about Unity though.

Also, I'm about to embark on making a 2.5d side-scrolling brawler (this will be my first game ever, nothing ambitious). Any pointers?

[Typewriter]

I'm a software developer who has worked as such in a professional manner for about 12 years. All this time I've wanted to get into game development/design/writing but I am terrible at coding games I've found.

I've spent tons of hours following tutorials and creating the very basic games they have you create, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around even the basics. I've tried playing around with RPG maker as well, but have had problems with even basic concepts within. I have a pretty good understanding of how data moves 'behind the scenes', I understand how to structure a games plot (or at least I like to think I do), and I have several mechanical concepts in mind whose mechanics I could code but not any sort of visual interface or actual game application.

One thing that's always head me back is fear - I don't think I'd be bothered if I made a game and it received a poor reception, but the idea that I could pour my heart into a game and wind up completely ignored - that idea terrifies me. I think this is one of the reasons why whenever I start spending a lot of time on trying to 'learn' again I wind up giving up after a hundred or so hours.

I did take a game design class and got a decent grade in it, though I was continually frustrated by the instructor, so much that I will never take a gaming class at this particular school again. It was a concept class - not a coding class - we made board games and talked about philosophies that went into various types of video game design.

tl;dr - I'm a computer programmer who wants to be a game designer, but I don't understand even the most simplistic concepts regarding coding a game.

[Rosstin]

I was actually going to ask how you made your games.

Me, I've *only* messed with RPG Maker (various incarnations) and GameMaker: Studio. I've heard a lot about Unity though.

Also, I'm about to embark on making a 2.5d side-scrolling brawler (this will be my first game ever, nothing ambitious). Any pointers?

Every single game I make is different pretty much. I don't know a lot about GameMaker (except that it is pretty good, the original Spelunky was made in it.)

If I was making a 2.5d platformer, I would start with Unity. I started messing around with stuff for this Paper Mario battle system today, and to that end I downloaded Unity 5 (free version) and got the sample 2D platformer project (also free) from their app store. Now I'm working on character controller scripts and whatnot. We used Unity to make Nefarious (http://nefariousgame.com/) (a 2D platformer game) and it works pretty well for that sort of thing.


tl;dr - I'm a computer programmer who wants to be a game designer, but I don't understand even the most simplistic concepts regarding coding a game.

Typewriter, game development comes from passion pretty much. If you really want to get into it, the best thing to do would be...
1) Gamejams. This is number one. Do gamejams, they are amazing. http://globalgamejam.org/ is coming up very soon (january) and it's pretty much the biggest jam in the world, there will be sites all over the world for it. Basically, you meet a bunch of people and spend 48 hours making a game.
2) Pick a project you want to do and scope it as small as humanly possible. I'm talking like, make a scrolling shooter. Scrolling shooters are great because they are pretty much the easiest game to make, but are also very satisfying. You don't need to do a lot of physics, you just need to be able to move the player in XY, have it fire projectiles that collide with enemies, have enemies move around a bit. Then commit a chunk of real time to it, with a deadline. Like, say, "this weekend I am going to work on this for 16 hours and get a playable version done." I find, the smaller the project, the shorter the deadline, committing a small but significant piece of very focused time to it, you can get something done and it's a huge ego boost. Check out the article I wrote about this (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RosstinMurphy/20150224/237145/FINISH_YOUR_GAME.php).

In terms of getting recognized for your work... it's extremely competitive. But if you make a very niche game that caters to a particular audience, people will appreciate it. My favorite example is Queer Catboy Love Triangle Disaster (https://rosstin.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/kitty-love-3/). This game couldn't be any more niche. It's a dating sim specifically for people who are into gay catboys. But it was played by hundreds of people-- everyone who is into that specific thing. Your first few games will pretty much go completely unnoticed, but if you learn what you are doing and learn to make great, focused games, then eventually people will start to pay attention. It's all about POLISH, in my opinion. Your games have to be completely bug free, they have to look good and be slick and professional. If you can get to that level, you will typically be able to release a free game that ~1000 people will play.

[NichG]

Seconding the small projects.

I feel like 'polish' is the hardest idea to get a hold on when you're starting out - how to critique your own game even in the little details, determine 'this won't be good enough' and stick to that even if its annoying, and also just what kinds of things lead to a polished feel. Does each screen have enough responsiveness and motion - do buttons react to the mouse cursor moving over them, near them, clicking, etc? Are the fonts consistent? Is the art style consistent? Do these UI elements behave like people would expect on PC; how about on mobile, if you're developing for that? Does the game look alright at different aspect ratios and resolutions? Do the UI elements look like they're a part of the game, or do they look like system graphics?

Doing lots of small projects in game jams and competitions is a good way to hone that sense of polish. There's not going to be a ton of detailed, elaborate content to any game jam game, so it really has to stand on its design and attention to detail.

Another good thing to do is to make games for webgame portals like Newgrounds and Kongregate and the like. Within about a week, you can have a few thousand people play your game and leave comments/ratings.

[AgentPaper]

tl;dr - I'm a computer programmer who wants to be a game designer, but I don't understand even the most simplistic concepts regarding coding a game.

I've been going through a similar process myself, and I think besides the most important advice (Keep your first game small. No, smaller than that. Real small.), is that you shouldn't worry about optimization or doing things the "right" or "best" way. This got me hung up a lot while I was working on my games. Basically any time I encountered a system, like an inventory system, or equipment, or enemy spawning, or even simple stuff like menus for various parts of the game, I would stop and try to think of the "perfect" way to implement that, and/or spend a lot of time looking around online for a really clean, intuitive and/or standardized way of doing it.

In the end, what I've found is that the best way to do any given system is to make something that works. Don't worry about it being pretty, or sustainable, or expandable, or anything like that. Just get something that works as quickly as possible in whatever way you can figure out for it to work, even if that seems convoluted and clunky. Then, once you have it made and working, you'll have a much better understanding of what it is you're making, and when you come back and need to, say, expand your enemy spawner to work for all 10 levels of the game instead of just a first, quick and dirty test level, you'll have a framework to start with and a better understanding of what exactly you need from your enemy spawning system and can make the clean, optimized, expandable version that you want.

This might sound like a weird and inefficient way of going about things, especially for someone who is used to coding for non-video game applications, but it makes sense because, more than any other software, every game is unique. There are some general categories, like shooters, brawlers, RPGs, etc, but even within those genres no two games are quite alike. There is usually no "best practices" way to accomplish most things that you need to do in a video games.

[Typewriter]

I've been going through a similar process myself, and I think besides the most important advice (Keep your first game small. No, smaller than that. Real small.), is that you shouldn't worry about optimization or doing things the "right" or "best" way. This got me hung up a lot while I was working on my games. Basically any time I encountered a system, like an inventory system, or equipment, or enemy spawning, or even simple stuff like menus for various parts of the game, I would stop and try to think of the "perfect" way to implement that, and/or spend a lot of time looking around online for a really clean, intuitive and/or standardized way of doing it.

In the end, what I've found is that the best way to do any given system is to make something that works. Don't worry about it being pretty, or sustainable, or expandable, or anything like that. Just get something that works as quickly as possible in whatever way you can figure out for it to work, even if that seems convoluted and clunky. Then, once you have it made and working, you'll have a much better understanding of what it is you're making, and when you come back and need to, say, expand your enemy spawner to work for all 10 levels of the game instead of just a first, quick and dirty test level, you'll have a framework to start with and a better understanding of what exactly you need from your enemy spawning system and can make the clean, optimized, expandable version that you want.

This might sound like a weird and inefficient way of going about things, especially for someone who is used to coding for non-video game applications, but it makes sense because, more than any other software, every game is unique. There are some general categories, like shooters, brawlers, RPGs, etc, but even within those genres no two games are quite alike. There is usually no "best practices" way to accomplish most things that you need to do in a video games.

Your comments about inventory and menus and the like actually hit the nail on the head for what caused me to bang my head on a wall. I follow these tutorials that teach basic concepts, but then I need to figure out how to transition between levels or have a menu or anything like that and I feel completely lost again. Like, even more than before I started learning how to make a sprite move. I mean, I couldn't even figure out how to have a menu before the game starts.

Sadly, as time goes on, I'm finding myself with less and less time to focus on stuff like this (kids, wife, friends, fun). I'm hoping that when I finish school I'll be able to focus a bit of the time that had been spent on school towards a hobby like making a game or writing. Luckily I'm only 30 and I actually do spend a good amount of my time doing stuff that 'matters' so I should be able to stay focused on something like this... once some time clears up. Or I could stop gaming as much as I do...

[danzibr]

Or I could stop gaming as much as I do...
Perhaps interestingly, my interest in playing games severely waned the past several months. I'm much more into actually making them now.

In the next few days I'm going to finish my current Udemy course, then I'm going to make a 5-minute game where you kill slimes and stuff.

[Grinner]

Your comments about inventory and menus and the like actually hit the nail on the head for what caused me to bang my head on a wall. I follow these tutorials that teach basic concepts, but then I need to figure out how to transition between levels or have a menu or anything like that and I feel completely lost again. Like, even more than before I started learning how to make a sprite move. I mean, I couldn't even figure out how to have a menu before the game starts.

I know what you mean, except for me, the issue's always been animation. Even understanding the delta-time trick, animation is still one of those deceptively simple things.

For your particular problem, it might be better to structure the game as a set of states. Instead of trying to handle the gameplay and menus from a single loop, subdivide the problem. Inside your main loop, place an if-else statement checking for the game's state (i.e. game mode, menu mode, etc). Then inside the if-else statement, use separate sets of functions for each state for handling things like rendering, user input, game logic, etc.

To put it in code, it would look something like this:

while (game_running == true) {
if (mode == 0) { //game mode
render_game_mode();
game_logic();
user_input_game_mode();
}
else if (mode == 1) { //level transition
load_level_data(current_level + 1); //load next level's data overtop current level's data
reset_level_data(); //i.e. obliterate monsters/loose items, set player to level starting position, etc.
mode = 0; //start gameplay
}
else {
render_menu_mode();
menu_logic();
user_input_menu_mode();
}
}

For level transitions, you'll want to have two sets of variables. The first set should be the persistent stuff like player health or other player information, and the second set should be mutable data like a structure for current level data.

Now, what I've outlined above is only suitable for extremely simple games, like Super Mario. More complex games, like say Deus Ex, would require likewise more complex code. If your idea would require persistence of level information, you would need to save that somewhere.


In the next few days I'm going to finish my current Udemy course, then I'm going to make a 5-minute game where you kill slimes and stuff.

Sounds cool. Good luck. :smallsmile:

[NichG]

For transitions and menus and such, I think generally I see people use something like a stack.

Lets say you have a general class called 'Scene' which has a bunch of variables that store function pointers to various callbacks like 'render' and 'timestep' and 'mouseclick' and 'keypress' and the like. Then you just have a stack of Scenes, and just have the game do whatever the top Scene in the stack says. If the player wants to 'back out' to the previous scene, its easy to know what scene that was. If you want to have something like nested, transparent menus, you could just have the 'render' callback for a transparent menu Scene first call the 'render' callback of the next Scene in the stack if there is one.

[Rosstin]

Some developers I'm a fan of are making a sweet new game, Indivisible. It's very similar to some stuff I've been messing around with, basically RPG battle systems that feel dynamic and videogamey. Their system is a mashup of FF7's ATB system and Paper Mario's contextual actions.

I'm working on something that's a mashup of yomi (the rock-paper-scissors mechanic) and action commands.

[Nepenthe]

I've dabbled in game design for many, many years though I've never come anywhere close to something I'd consider finished. My favorite creation software (and the one I'm most familliar with) is the OHR (http://rpg.hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/Main_Page). I've recently played around with Stencyl (http://www.stencyl.com) as well. Currently, I've decided to try my hand at interactive fiction using Quest (http://textadventures.co.uk/quest).

On that note, I'm trying to hammer out a title for my first game. I need something evocative and intriguing enough that people will want to read a synopsis and hopefully play the game. The spoiler contains the results of some quick brainstorming. I'd really appreciate feedback or sugestions:One-Eyed Jack's Demise
A Pirate's Demise
The Last Rites of Jonathan Espada
The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack
The Pirate Castaway
Blood and Rum
A Captain's Betrayal
The Darkness in the Cave
Wherein Jonathan Espada, a Pirate, Discovers the Darkness Within a Cave and the Light Within Himself
Betrayed and Bleeding
Still I Breathe
A Dead Pirate Wakes
The Awakening of Jonathan Espada

[Rosstin]

I've dabbled in game design for many, many years though I've never come anywhere close to something I'd consider finished. My favorite creation software (and the one I'm most familliar with) is the OHR (http://rpg.hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/Main_Page). I've recently played around with Stencyl (http://www.stencyl.com) as well. Currently, I've decided to try my hand at interactive fiction using Quest (http://textadventures.co.uk/quest).

On that note, I'm trying to hammer out a title for my first game. I need something evocative and intriguing enough that people will want to read a synopsis and hopefully play the game. The spoiler contains the results of some quick brainstorming. I'd really appreciate feedback or sugestions:One-Eyed Jack's Demise
A Pirate's Demise
The Last Rites of Jonathan Espada
The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack
The Pirate Castaway
Blood and Rum
A Captain's Betrayal
The Darkness in the Cave
Wherein Jonathan Espada, a Pirate, Discovers the Darkness Within a Cave and the Light Within Himself
Betrayed and Bleeding
Still I Breathe
A Dead Pirate Wakes
The Awakening of Jonathan Espada

These sound really fun! There was a One-Eyed Jack in the Alone In The Dark series who was probably based on the same (historical?) figure.

I like these as a short list:

One-Eyed Jack's Demise
The Last Rites of Jonathan Espada
Wherein Jonathan Espada, a Pirate, Discovers the Darkness Within a Cave and the Light Within Himself
Still I Breathe

[danzibr]

Sounds cool. Good luck. :smallsmile:
Thanks!

I've dabbled in game design for many, many years though I've never come anywhere close to something I'd consider finished. My favorite creation software (and the one I'm most familliar with) is the OHR (http://rpg.hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/Main_Page). I've recently played around with Stencyl (http://www.stencyl.com) as well. Currently, I've decided to try my hand at interactive fiction using Quest (http://textadventures.co.uk/quest).

On that note, I'm trying to hammer out a title for my first game. I need something evocative and intriguing enough that people will want to read a synopsis and hopefully play the game. The spoiler contains the results of some quick brainstorming. I'd really appreciate feedback or sugestions:One-Eyed Jack's Demise
A Pirate's Demise
The Last Rites of Jonathan Espada
The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack
The Pirate Castaway
Blood and Rum
A Captain's Betrayal
The Darkness in the Cave
Wherein Jonathan Espada, a Pirate, Discovers the Darkness Within a Cave and the Light Within Himself
Betrayed and Bleeding
Still I Breathe
A Dead Pirate Wakes
The Awakening of Jonathan Espada
Knowing nothing of the game, the two that grab my interest the most are Blood and Rum, and Betrayed and Bleeding.

[Grinner]

Some developers I'm a fan of are making a sweet new game, Indivisible. It's very similar to some stuff I've been messing around with, basically RPG battle systems that feel dynamic and videogamey. Their system is a mashup of FF7's ATB system and Paper Mario's contextual actions.

Never played Paper Mario, but that sounds like a good idea. I partially dislike ATB systems because there's a time cost involved in navigating to the appropriate command.


I'm working on something that's a mashup of yomi (the rock-paper-scissors mechanic) and action commands.

In what context? An action RPG?


On that note, I'm trying to hammer out a title for my first game. I need something evocative and intriguing enough that people will want to read a synopsis and hopefully play the game. The spoiler contains the results of some quick brainstorming. I'd really appreciate feedback or sugestions:

First one that catches my attention is "The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack". "Blood and Rum"'s pretty cool too.

I definitely would not give attention to games with the following titles:

One-Eyed Jack's Demise
A Pirate's Demise
The Pirate Castaway
A Captain's Betrayal
The Darkness in the Cave
Still I Breathe
A Dead Pirate Wakes

[Nepenthe]

Thanks for the input, Everyone. I've tentatively slapped The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack on there, but I think that will probably become the subtitle. Leaning towards Blood and Rum for the main title to really sell the pirate theme. I'm still open to suggestions, of course.

I'm shooting for a pulpy horror-adventure vibe for the game itself. Wish me luck!

[danzibr]

Thanks for the input, Everyone. I've tentatively slapped The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack on there, but I think that will probably become the subtitle. Leaning towards Blood and Rum for the main title to really sell the pirate theme. I'm still open to suggestions, of course.

I'm shooting for a pulpy horror-adventure vibe for the game itself. Wish me luck!
Good luck!

Blood and Rum: The Last Testament of One-Eyed Jack sounds really good.

[Nepenthe]

So what is everyone's preferred design process? Do you write the plot first then come up with mechanics that compliment the story, or do you come up with mechanics first then build a plot from those?

[Rosstin]

So what is everyone's preferred design process? Do you write the plot first then come up with mechanics that compliment the story, or do you come up with mechanics first then build a plot from those?

This is probably a bit unique to me because my primary perspective is as a producer, but...

First I look at who my available possible team members are, and their interest level and availability for a project.
Then I come up with some strong core concepts for games that would work well for the team I have available. (like "Mermaid Shooter" or "Alien Dating Sim" or "War Fantasy Romance Visual Novel"). I try to make this something that I think will be a good idea and is interesting, but I don't make it too narrow.
Then I do a guided brainstorming session with the most core team members and we try to come up with something awesome that we all feel ownership over. I try not to contribute too much of my own ideas, but rather try to keep in mind principles of good design.
Then we start concepting and prototyping. While we are messing around, I build up some design documents.
After prototyping phase, we cut things down into what is the "core" of the game, then move onto the vertical slice phase assuming that the prototype was interesting enough to continue with. At this stage we make better, more formal design docs.

[NichG]

Usually there's some broad type of experience I want the player to have, some gimmick or theme or thing like that. Following that, I want to get some version of it in an interactive form as quickly as possible so I can see if its feasible/actually enjoyable, and to get a concrete idea of what the scope of the project will be and what will need to get done. During that phase the engine gets built and the mechanics start to form in detail through iteration.

Things like plot and story are then built in order to support exploring those experiences in a satisfying and interesting way. Generally there will then be a second or third pass after the game is in a more complete state to address things like the mechanics getting repetitive, or being inconsistent with the idea, or just being too difficult to build content for in a timely fashion or things like that. Around that point I should have an idea of how much content is needed and what each element of content is, so that's also the point where I'm looking to make sure that the project scope can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

[Rosstin]

Just got some of the highest possible praise for Queen, a player sent us an email, extremely happy to have found a game with a realistic F/F pairing. Really quite a gush over the game and story. This is basically what I live for.

[Rosstin]

I'm building a hex-based coordinate system for a TBS.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/prisms.png

[Grinner]

Neat!

Would you be horribly offended if I pointed you to some existing resources on the subject? Here (http://keekerdc.com/2011/03/hexagon-grids-coordinate-systems-and-distance-calculations), if you're interested.

[Rosstin]

It's pretty hard to offend me. Thanks!

I ended up using this guy's tutorial: http://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/

I have pathing, and it's on iPhone:
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/easy.jpg

I'm getting version control set-up now. Then I need to make animated player and enemies, and the ability to recognize unique paths that are drawn.

[danzibr]

Grats on the good feedback Rosstin!

I finally finished my first game, made a post about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?466108-I-made-a-game!).

[Rosstin]

Congrats Danz! You've leveled up!

[Grinner]

Congrats Danz! You've leveled up!

What's more impressive is that it's something he can be proud of.

My first game is something no one may ever see.



No one. :smallannoyed:

[danzibr]

Congrats Danz! You've leveled up!
Thanks! I wonder what level I am... 3 maybe. Feel like I gained one in the development process :P

What's more impressive is that it's something he can be proud of.

My first game is something no one may ever see.



No one. :smallannoyed:
Hmm... *may*. I'd like to see it.

[Grinner]

Thanks! I wonder what level I am... 3 maybe. Feel like I gained one in the development process :P

There's this website somewhere which helps people "gamify" their lives. It would be funny* if we did the same thing for this thread.

*Read: moderately amusing


Hmm... *may*. I'd like to see it.

Not happening.

Maybe the next one, once I nail down the design and actually make it.

[danzibr]

There's this website somewhere which helps people "gamify" their lives. It would be funny* if we did the same thing for this thread.

*Read: moderately amusing
I was on a site called habitrpg.com for a while. Reminiscent.

Not happening.

Maybe the next one, once I nail down the design and actually make it.
Fair enough. Keep us posted, of course.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, since this is a gamedev thread, I've always been meaning to ask somebody. How would you rate the Unity engine/SDK (Personal Edition of course) as far as making a game from scratch is concerned?

I've had rather Napoleonic plans in regards to making a game for some time now (that is, overambitious and unlikely to succeed), but never found the mental torque to actually get started; and I've been eyeing Unity for most of that time due to a number of games I like being made on it. Recently one game I bought on the Steam Sale surprised me with the Unity Personal Edition splash screen (and turned out to also be quite good, though not in any way due to graphics), and I considered taking a shot at making something again, so any opinions you have on the matter would be welcome. :)

[Grinner]

Well, since this is a gamedev thread, I've always been meaning to ask somebody. How would you rate the Unity engine/SDK (Personal Edition of course) as far as making a game from scratch is concerned?

I've had rather Napoleonic plans in regards to making a game for some time now (that is, overambitious and unlikely to succeed), but never found the mental torque to actually get started; and I've been eyeing Unity for most of that time due to a number of games I like being made on it. Recently one game I bought on the Steam Sale surprised me with the Unity Personal Edition splash screen (and turned out to also be quite good, though not in any way due to graphics), and I considered taking a shot at making something again, so any opinions you have on the matter would be welcome. :)

I don't have any direct experience with Unity. That said, there's this guy in one of my classes whom I sometimes observe while he works with it in class. From what's he's described to me, it's a lot like working with GameMaker, just without the drag&drop scripting feature.

By that, I mean the basic workflow consists of designing "objects" and dropping the aforementioned objects into a "scene" (a 3D environment). Scripts, called "controllers", form the basic unit of game logic and can be attached to objects whose behavior is to be moderated by game.

Say I want to make an FPS. I would model and animate a player character model (or just buy one) and then import that into Unity. Then I would make a 3D environment by placing other 3D objects into a scene. Finally, I'd attach a controller script to the player character model I made (or bought) and drop the player character into the scene. When I go to playtest the game, the controller script would check to see if I'm pressing any of the WASD or arrow keys and move the player character accordingly.

There's a few things I've skipped over out of ignorance, like enabling physics, but I think that covers the basics. It's most helpful, I imagine, if you have some background with Java or C# (the two being largely interchangeable at more basic levels), but the components that Unity uses seem modular enough that you could make a decent game without touching code or animation tools directly, especially if you use one of those kits available on the Unity Store.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I don't have any direct experience with Unity. That said...<snip>Thank you for the insights. :)


It's most helpful, I imagine, if you have some background with Java or C# (the two being largely interchangeable at more basic levels), but the components that Unity uses seem modular enough that you could make a decent game without touching code or animation tools directly, especially if you use one of those kits available on the Unity Store.

I do have some experience in C# and 3d-modelling. If only there were more converters for Lightwave...

[Rosstin]

Unity is great, give it a shot. It's a professional tool these days.

[Grinner]

I do have some experience in C# and 3d-modelling. If only there were more converters for Lightwave...

Would this (https://docs.unity3d.com/353/Documentation/Manual/HOWTO-importObjectLightwave.html) do the trick?


Unity is great, give it a shot. It's a professional tool these days.

I must admit that I'm tempted to try it out too, but I really need to pare down on my game software...Game Guru, GameMaker, several editions of RPG Maker plus DLC, and a couple open-source engines.

[Neftren]

Well, since this is a gamedev thread, I've always been meaning to ask somebody. How would you rate the Unity engine/SDK (Personal Edition of course) as far as making a game from scratch is concerned?

Unity (as a tool) is absolutely phenomenal, especially for small to medium sized teams (10-20 people). You'll need an artist for many things visual, or at the very least, you'll have to learn how to use Maya/Max to generate primitives. Many, many professional titles are shipped using Unity. If working by yourself, you will also need to learn the C# programming language to script your game behavior.

That being said, from the perspective of actually shipping titles though, I think Unreal Engine is much better suited to teams of 1-3, or very large teams (30+). The Unreal editor is much more powerful compared to Unity, since you'll have access to flowgraph visual scripting, subtractive geometry, better version control integration, and so on.

Give both a shot, they're both free!

[dragonsamurai77]

I currently have an RPG maker project on indefinite hiatus because I hate mapping. Currently, I'm working on a Game Maker bullet hell that I abandoned 3 years ago due to hating level design (see the pattern?). To avoid that issue moving forwards, I removed the levels entirely and just made it a boss rush, in the vein of CAVE's Death Label (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JBDyFC9BE) games.

[Rosstin]

You guys might like this. Isometric VS Perspective.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/iso.pnghttp://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/rosstin/pers.png

[NichG]

I have a bit of a user experience design thing I'm trying to work out. Basically, in Travelogue we have these text boxes that pop up with events as you travel. One thing I've noticed is that after awhile, I just ignore the actual lead-up text and look directly at the options, then just sort of automatically click through. As a result, I find myself skipping or missing potentially positive events, and only really paying attention to negative events, which in turn makes me resent the events as an interruption in what I was actually trying to do.

Any thoughts on this?

The thing I've decided to try is to introduce a pattern of delays when an event pops up. First the frame appears with something like a 0.1 second fade-in, then the event text fades in, and then the responses fade in. The idea is that might help the eye get drawn to the event text first, rather than immediately going to the responses. The potential downside is that there could be a noticeable slowness compared to what the player wants to do. So if they were really wanting to just get somewhere, the events might feel even more like interruptions.

Setting the delays seems a bit touchy though - even tenths of a second can be quite noticeable - and I don't have that many sets of fresh eyes to do something like large-scale A/B testing.

[Grinner]

I currently have an RPG maker project on indefinite hiatus because I hate mapping. Currently, I'm working on a Game Maker bullet hell that I abandoned 3 years ago due to hating level design (see the pattern?). To avoid that issue moving forwards, I removed the levels entirely and just made it a boss rush, in the vein of CAVE's Death Label (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JBDyFC9BE) games.

I like your thinking. :smallbiggrin:


I have a bit of a user experience design thing I'm trying to work out. Basically, in Travelogue we have these text boxes that pop up with events as you travel. One thing I've noticed is that after awhile, I just ignore the actual lead-up text and look directly at the options, then just sort of automatically click through. As a result, I find myself skipping or missing potentially positive events, and only really paying attention to negative events, which in turn makes me resent the events as an interruption in what I was actually trying to do.

Any thoughts on this?

The thing I've decided to try is to introduce a pattern of delays when an event pops up. First the frame appears with something like a 0.1 second fade-in, then the event text fades in, and then the responses fade in. The idea is that might help the eye get drawn to the event text first, rather than immediately going to the responses. The potential downside is that there could be a noticeable slowness compared to what the player wants to do. So if they were really wanting to just get somewhere, the events might feel even more like interruptions.

Setting the delays seems a bit touchy though - even tenths of a second can be quite noticeable - and I don't have that many sets of fresh eyes to do something like large-scale A/B testing.

That's not a horrible idea...If the delay is too noticeable, you could try decreasing the time a hair...

Are the responses each usually associated with a particular outcome and only occasionally a different outcome? If so, I think the problem fundamentally is that the user is trained to associate certain stimuli (response button texts) with certain outcomes. When they don't produce the expected response, the user becomes frustrated. Thus, the solution is to prevent or limit those associations.

To accomplish this, you might try varying the response texts and outcomes. If you're worried about people travelling with minimal frustration, you might leave one standard response text for avoiding an event. On the other hand, you might be able to go the opposite route and try color-coding events to better enable users to discriminate between different events.

By the by, Travelogue seems to have little to no web presence. I did a quick search and turned up nothing on it. Has it been released?

[NichG]

That's not a horrible idea...If the delay is too noticeable, you could try decreasing the time a hair...

Are the responses each usually associated with a particular outcome and only occasionally a different outcome? If so, I think the problem fundamentally is that the user is trained to associate certain stimuli (response button texts) with certain outcomes. When they don't produce the expected response, the user becomes frustrated. Thus, the solution is to prevent or limit those associations.

To accomplish this, you might try varying the response texts and outcomes. If you're worried about people travelling with minimal frustration, you might leave one standard response text for avoiding an event. On the other hand, you might be able to go the opposite route and try color-coding events to better enable users to discriminate between different events.


So there is one sort of standard response that's basically just 'Continue on your way'. Hostile or dangerous events tend not to have that on the first card, because you need to make some decision in order to protect yourself, but pretty much all the other events tend to have it.

The thing that happens is that you just get habituated into clicking 'Continue on your way' without looking at the event at all. Part of the reason for that is that generally the player has something they're currently trying to do - take goods from one town to another, go to such and such a dungeon, etc - and when the event pops up the very first impression is that 'this is interrupting my plans' rather than 'this is an opportunity'.

One option would be to make it so that the events provide a much more profitable progression than anything the player can decide to do, so the player might actively go 'event-hunting', but I'm worried that would end up being very grindy and would also discourage the player from being engaged.

We did just add a system that creates dynamic road conditions that last for about a week (such as 'bandit activity on this road'), to give the player more ability to control the type of events they receive - so hopefully that will make it feel more like 'I have to choose between these kinds of challenges' rather than 'drat, another random encounter'.


By the by, Travelogue seems to have little to no web presence. I did a quick search and turned up nothing on it. Has it been released?

It was released something like 2 years ago now, and since then we've all basically moved on to other job opportunities, which means that we basically let our site and web presence go completely to seed. Then we got a bit of a shock when it managed to get Greenlit, so now we're basically revamping it and trying to upgrade the look and feel to be more professional based on various recommendations and reviews from last time.

[Grinner]

The thing that happens is that you just get habituated into clicking 'Continue on your way' without looking at the event at all. Part of the reason for that is that generally the player has something they're currently trying to do - take goods from one town to another, go to such and such a dungeon, etc - and when the event pops up the very first impression is that 'this is interrupting my plans' rather than 'this is an opportunity'.

One option would be to make it so that the events provide a much more profitable progression than anything the player can decide to do, so the player might actively go 'event-hunting', but I'm worried that would end up being very grindy and would also discourage the player from being engaged.

Have you considered the possibility that you're spoiling the player with events? If they happen so frequently, they're not really special, so a lost opportunity is a shame but not a big deal in the long run.

Clearly, I don't have personal experience with the game, so you're in a better position to judge. Still, it might be worth bumping the encounter rate down and seeing how it plays. I think it would be ideal if you could get another member of your team to playtest it without informing them of the change.

Edit: Also, you might consider combining a reduced encounter rate with your progression idea.

[Rosstin]

Send us a demo of Travelogue!

[NichG]

Send us a demo of Travelogue!

Here's the old one.

http://games.urbanhermitgames.com/travelogue_demo/

The new one is not web functional because of the new Steam integration stuff, but I can make some beta testing Steam keys on individual request.

[Rosstin]

Your game is very promising, NichG.

[NichG]

Your game is very promising, NichG.

Thanks! This version didn't do too well on release - about 50 sales total. But we were just selling from our site and itch. For the new version we upped the resolution to 1920x1080 and commissioned some professional art to replace my stuff.

[dragonsamurai77]

I currently have an RPG maker project on indefinite hiatus because I hate mapping. Currently, I'm working on a Game Maker bullet hell that I abandoned 3 years ago due to hating level design (see the pattern?). To avoid that issue moving forwards, I removed the levels entirely and just made it a boss rush, in the vein of CAVE's Death Label (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JBDyFC9BE) games.

Update: The game is now in its first "alpha" release: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471666-My-Danmaku-Boss-Rush!-%281-0-Alpha%29-Game-Maker&p=20176614#post20176614

[Grinner]

So I spent a good portion of the day trying to get Torque 3D working. Alas, I was not quite happy with the results. It worked, but it wasn't anything to write home about.

It feels unintuitive and inflexible, and the model format support is poor.

[Rosstin]

We're working to release Queen At Arms on Steam by the 25th of December. Welcome to hell... bugs, sprite mismatches... it's gonna be a nightmarish 13 days.

[Rosstin]

Prediction: success. It HAS been nightmarish days. Line-by-lining 16,000 lines of game script every day for 2 weeks.

I just submitted a build for approval by Valve.... ugh it's the 22nd. Such a tight timeframe.

[Grinner]

Good luck. :smallsmile:

[Fri]

Here's the old one.

http://games.urbanhermitgames.com/travelogue_demo/

The new one is not web functional because of the new Steam integration stuff, but I can make some beta testing Steam keys on individual request.

I must say this is a really interesting one, and I'd like to have it once you finished your retail one. Please notify us when it's finished :smallbiggrin:

[NichG]

I must say this is a really interesting one, and I'd like to have it once you finished your retail one. Please notify us when it's finished :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! Unfortunately I can't give you an ETA. It's kind of in that awkward 'waiting for other people, and I know that I should just make it happen but I'm busy too' phase - part of the problem with having a job outside of gamedev I suppose, since things moved much faster when I had time to make this my main focus.

Currently the main thing we have left to do is upgrading some of the art. We had contracted two artists for that - one person to do item icons, another to redo some of the full-screen pieces for particular moments in the game and to look into doing art for the various encounters. We got some initial stuff, but then a bunch of stuff came up for them it seems, so things got delayed or dropped. So we need to find someone else I think. I had also wanted to have illustrations for a few major NPCs and event cards, but given the delays we've already had, I don't know if it makes sense to still try to make that happen.

[Rosstin]

Honest to god, if you can scrape together even a little money to pay people, that really greases the wheels.

I don't have a large enough income stream or wide enough profits to pay people a market rate, but I basically pay people in increments of at least 100 dollars, and size their tasks appropriately for that sum. 100 dollars I think is basically the smallest amount you can pay people without it being embarrassing.

When I started out, I paid my team 100 dollars a month for about 40 hours of work a month. That's a far cry from "real money" but it communicated to everyone that I was serious and that it was a real project. I also had everyone sign a contract, which cost me nothing. And we had weekly meetings at a regular time every week, no exceptions. And deadlines, those are good.

People need to believe in your project. If they don't believe in it, it will never get done.

[NichG]

Honest to god, if you can scrape together even a little money to pay people, that really greases the wheels.

I don't have a large enough income stream or wide enough profits to pay people a market rate, but I basically pay people in increments of at least 100 dollars, and size their tasks appropriately for that sum. 100 dollars I think is basically the smallest amount you can pay people without it being embarrassing.

When I started out, I paid my team 100 dollars a month for about 40 hours of work a month. That's a far cry from "real money" but it communicated to everyone that I was serious and that it was a real project. I also had everyone sign a contract, which cost me nothing. And we had weekly meetings at a regular time every week, no exceptions. And deadlines, those are good.

People need to believe in your project. If they don't believe in it, it will never get done.

Yeah, I've had bad experiences with people wanting to work for free. It doesn't usually hold up against 'real life' problems. We budgeted about $3k for hiring artists for the art upgrade. The item art we expect will be about $1k of that. We've already spent about $1k for some nice title art, UI backgrounds, and a redo of the world map.

I think intensity is key. We had a very good experience hiring one artist to do full screen illustrations, and part of it was that it was a sequence of pieces that we were constantly in contact about - reviewing drafts, describing and selecting the concept for the next piece, etc.

In contrast, the inventory art was more like 'here's 110 tiny pieces to do, go for it!' - maybe too little contact to maintain interest.

[Rosstin]

I really think that weekly contact is the key. I've thought about this a lot.

Weekly contact means you can meet at a set day/time every week. It's easy to remember. It's a routine. It creates breakpoints for presenting work.

And, this is incredibly obvious, but I can't believe how many people **** this up... do your best to BE PLEASANT TO WORK WITH. People forget this and it's freaking dumb. If you're a jerk, it makes everything worse.

[spectralphoenix]

Speaking of game assets, can anyone recommend some sites to buy or obtain free/open source art, models, music, whatever? I'm another guy who thinks he's a good enough programmer to make a game, but unless I want to make The Adventures of Johnny DangerCube Versus the Evil Spheres of the Planet of Silence, I'm going to need some help in the artistic department, and as I'm still in the just messing around at this point I don't want to start contracting artists or anything like that yet.

I did a cursory Google search to see what came up, but I was hoping to get some recommendations from people in the know.

[Morph Bark]

Man, I must've glanced over this thread every time I came into this board the past two months!

I'm a game development student at an international school in the Netherlands, specializing to become a level/narrative designer. I'm currently in my second year, and have so far created three games (two with the Unity engine, one with Unreal Engine 4).

I'll probably be dropping by here more often now that I know this thread exists. :)

[Rosstin]

We finally fixed a very persistent positional glitch in Queen At Arms. I think I've invested something like 50 hours working on it.

[danzibr]

For free music you can use, search Incompetech.

As for bugs, I spent hours (not 50, but quite some time) searching for a bug which was hard to reproduce and messed with knockback. Turns out I had a vspeed where I needed an hspeed. Derp.

[Duck999]

I've been interested in Game Design for a while, so I finally picked up Unity. My problem is learning it. I did a tiny bit of a tutorial, but I do not learn well that way. After I think 2 episodes out of probably 10-ish, I stopped watching it. I decided to learn by progress, and find out how to fix things as I come to them. Then I ran into another problem. I need a simple project to create to practice Unity. For now, I am using Unity 2D. Does anyone have any ideas for simple-isn game ideas or small projects to learn Unity?

[danzibr]

For my earlier post, I want to add for sound effects (kind of limited, but still a nice application), search bfxr.

I can't comment on Unity, but I learned GameMaker through Youtube tutorials and a course on Udemy. Udemy has all sorts of awesome courses, and they often go on sale for $10 or $15.

[Duck999]

I can't comment on Unity, but I learned GameMaker through Youtube tutorials and a course on Udemy. Udemy has all sorts of awesome courses, and they often go on sale for $10 or $15.

The problem is, I need something more interactive than "do what I do" and "this is how you make the character move." I more like learning by trial and error. For example, I like being told "find a way to do this."

[Morph Bark]

The problem is, I need something more interactive than "do what I do" and "this is how you make the character move." I more like learning by trial and error. For example, I like being told "find a way to do this."

Last year, the programmers in our school were simply told "pick one of Mario Bros., Pac-Man or Space Invaders and make that". I don't know if that was in Unity though, but since you're working in Unity 2D and going for your first game, something simpler than that would be the best first step.

Make Super Mario Bros., but without enemies or power-ups. Essentially a bare-bones 2D platformer. You should learn how to make characters move, collision, failstate (and restart), and winstate. After that you can even do some tweaking to make it feel right (speed, jump height and duration, etc.).

Figure that out, and you're halfway into recreating half the console games from the early 90s.

[FireJustice]

It's been almost five years that I activelly work with GD (game design).
It's good income (~85k a year, not too bad)

Got to know some good and cool people in the crafts
Consult and give advice to some A+ and AAA, too much NDA nowdays.

Will read and follow this thread with anticipation

[Rosstin]

I'm incorporating Aqualuft Games this year since we started making enough income that I'm worried I'll get in trouble if I don't form an LLC or something.

[NichG]

We had to form an LLC because our team is in two different countries, so the tax aspects of it are potentially complex if you try to do it as a sole proprietorship and redistribute the earnings or something like that. Steam basically wanted us to just submit a business account to pay into and be done with it. I wasn't the one who ended up having to set all that up (we wanted to have the business be in the US rather than Japan), but from what I heard it was a fairly slow process. You wait a month to get an ID, which you need before you can open up the bank account, but getting a business bank account seems to actually require more credentials than a regular one (for example, there was a problem because one of us had moved within a month of trying to open the account) and things like that.

Anyhow, hopefully it'll go smoother for you than it did for us!

[Rosstin]

I just don't want to get wrecked on taxes.

[Duck999]

Last year, the programmers in our school were simply told "pick one of Mario Bros., Pac-Man or Space Invaders and make that". I don't know if that was in Unity though, but since you're working in Unity 2D and going for your first game, something simpler than that would be the best first step.

Make Super Mario Bros., but without enemies or power-ups. Essentially a bare-bones 2D platformer. You should learn how to make characters move, collision, failstate (and restart), and winstate. After that you can even do some tweaking to make it feel right (speed, jump height and duration, etc.).

Figure that out, and you're halfway into recreating half the console games from the early 90s.

Thank you! I will do this. I have movement, including jumping. Collision I have figured out at least in part, but not perfectly. Winstate and failstate are both things I need to figure out. Then I might be able to do friction. Also, I could try figuring out a working wall jump.

[Grinner]

Speaking of game assets, can anyone recommend some sites to buy or obtain free/open source art, models, music, whatever? I'm another guy who thinks he's a good enough programmer to make a game, but unless I want to make The Adventures of Johnny DangerCube Versus the Evil Spheres of the Planet of Silence, I'm going to need some help in the artistic department, and as I'm still in the just messing around at this point I don't want to start contracting artists or anything like that yet.

I did a cursory Google search to see what came up, but I was hoping to get some recommendations from people in the know.

Ack! How did no one mention opengameart.org (http://www.opengameart.org)?!? They have everything!

(Be sure to observe the licenses, though.)

[spectralphoenix]

For free music you can use, search Incompetech.


Ack! How did no one mention opengameart.org (http://www.opengameart.org)?!? They have everything!

(Be sure to observe the licenses, though.)

Cool, that gives me a lot to look at, thanks!

[Rosstin]

I HAVE VERY MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT THE RAMPANT PIRATING OF MY GAMES

also happy new year

[gxnpt]

My last freelance back-end web development was a bit over a decade ago, so I used PHP/MySQL/Javascript but mostly non-deprecated HTML4 rather than 5 for my game design - but since the board uses transparent overlays for pieces on each level and no video motion that works for this game.

I am very interested in locating playtesters and getting feedback - see rules at (a free web host, I know) gxnpt.0fees.us/playtest/index.hml

[Duck999]

Question for Unity 2D users (or people with an answer):
How do I get the x or y position of an object/the player? In this case, I want to make something happen in the update loop but only when the player is beyond a certain y value.

[Morph Bark]

Question for Unity 2D users (or people with an answer):
How do I get the x or y position of an object/the player? In this case, I want to make something happen in the update loop but only when the player is beyond a certain y value.

Going off the top of my head (it's been half a year since I worked with Unity): if you select the object, its information should pop up on the right in one of the tabs (unless you put it elsewhere), including it's position on all axes and its rotation. Whether this is also the case with Unity 2D, I don't know, as I've only worked in 3D in Unity.

[Duck999]

Going off the top of my head (it's been half a year since I worked with Unity): if you select the object, its information should pop up on the right in one of the tabs (unless you put it elsewhere), including it's position on all axes and its rotation. Whether this is also the case with Unity 2D, I don't know, as I've only worked in 3D in Unity.

That I've figured out. The question really is:
Is there a way to get this information in the code and use it. For example:
if ([playerPositionY]>10)
[do this];
What would be in the code instead of [playerPositionY]?

[NichG]

I've been on a bit of a music composition kick during the holidays, so I was working on some tracks for Travelogue and thinking about how its sound aspects integrate to the whole. It's not something we really gave that much serious thought to aside from 'well, lets pick an instrument that isn't used often and make it sort of give an identity to the game'. It seems like it'd be useful to have a sort of set of things to make sure you think about when designing how the audio component of the game hangs together, the way there is for UI and graphics stuff.

How do you guys handle the music and sound aspects of design for your games?

[Grinner]

I've been on a bit of a music composition kick during the holidays, so I was working on some tracks for Travelogue and thinking about how its sound aspects integrate to the whole. It's not something we really gave that much serious thought to aside from 'well, lets pick an instrument that isn't used often and make it sort of give an identity to the game'. It seems like it'd be useful to have a sort of set of things to make sure you think about when designing how the audio component of the game hangs together, the way there is for UI and graphics stuff.

How do you guys handle the music and sound aspects of design for your games?

For the games for which I've considered adding music (numbering two in total), I've followed the example of movie soundtracks. That is, use no vocals and select music which serves to augment the game's atmosphere rather than music which stands on its own merits. Music which stands entirely on its own merits tends to overpower whatever it's attached to, in my opinion.

Use retro sounds for retro graphics. Other types of music tend to be jarring. (This aspect of RPG Maker tends to irritate me a little bit. A lot of the music seems to be acoustic, and that doesn't always jive with the included graphic assets.)

On that note, make sure the sounds match the graphics. I've found tracks on OpenGameArt which are labelled "medieval" which might fit a medieval-themed 8-bit RPG, when I've been looking for tracks for something a little more realistic.

[NichG]

It does seem like some games focus entirely on atmospheric sound and things which don't really have a melody or harmony line, whereas other games go more for things that are more forefront. Both can work I think, but there is some kind of cross-over between what kinds of games suit one versus the other I guess.

For example, I'm thinking of games that have a lot of menu-driven stuff. In that case, I think it needs more forefront music because there's a sort of absence of vitality otherwise. But on the other hand, there are a lot of twitch games that have very forefront songs that seem to work out, because it helps the player get into the timing of the twitch gameplay. So I guess its not always just an inverse relationship between the music activity and interface/in-game activity.

One thing with forefront music is that if it ends up having to repeat, it can get annoying more quickly than atmospheric music.

[Rosstin]

Good points, Nich.

I wish I had a full-time sound person for Aqualuft Games.

[danzibr]

To answer how I handle sounds in my games, I present... a demo of a demo for my upcoming game (http://drbrigham.weebly.com/about-dr-brigham.html) (the second download)!

I hoped to make more progress over break before unveiling it (my intended demo was going to be about twice as long), but, well, I have to go back tomorrow. At least it's something.

[Grinner]

It does seem like some games focus entirely on atmospheric sound and things which don't really have a melody or harmony line, whereas other games go more for things that are more forefront. Both can work I think, but there is some kind of cross-over between what kinds of games suit one versus the other I guess.

For example, I'm thinking of games that have a lot of menu-driven stuff. In that case, I think it needs more forefront music because there's a sort of absence of vitality otherwise. But on the other hand, there are a lot of twitch games that have very forefront songs that seem to work out, because it helps the player get into the timing of the twitch gameplay. So I guess its not always just an inverse relationship between the music activity and interface/in-game activity.

One thing with forefront music is that if it ends up having to repeat, it can get annoying more quickly than atmospheric music.

I'm trying to think of some examples.

I agree that the energy of the music is not always inversely related to the freneticness of the gameplay, but for certain genres, I find it better to play without music entirely, particularly RPGs. Take the Geneforge series, for instance. With the exception of the second installment, they all have pretty catchy theme music, but there's only atmospheric background noise in-game. And these are old-school point-and-click RPGs, not action RPGs like The Elder Scrolls, which I tend to play with in-game music switched off. Incidentally, each member of The Elder Scrolls series has also had pretty catchy theme music, at least since Morrowind.

In summary, catchy theme music is important. :smalltongue:

But then there's fighting games, and fighting games in general tend to function better accompanied by uptempo tunes. But there's also a shooter/brawler demo game called Wasteland Kings which has a rather unique assortment of tracks in it, only one of which is a caustic electric guitar track.

Perhaps there are no rules?

[NichG]

I'm trying to think of some examples.

I agree that the energy of the music is not always inversely related to the freneticness of the gameplay, but for certain genres, I find it better to play without music entirely, particularly RPGs. Take the Geneforge series, for instance. With the exception of the second installment, they all have pretty catchy theme music, but there's only atmospheric background noise in-game. And these are old-school point-and-click RPGs, not action RPGs like The Elder Scrolls, which I tend to play with in-game music switched off. Incidentally, each member of The Elder Scrolls series has also had pretty catchy theme music, at least since Morrowind.

In summary, catchy theme music is important. :smalltongue:

But then there's fighting games, and fighting games in general tend to function better accompanied by uptempo tunes. But there's also a shooter/brawler demo game called Wasteland Kings which has a rather unique assortment of tracks in it, only one of which is a caustic electric guitar track.

Perhaps there are no rules?

Well, some examples...

Fallout 4 has mostly atmospheric sound, which suits the abandoned feel and absence of sharp transitions and modalities in the game. Horror games tend towards this too I guess.

On the other hand, Touhou bullet hell games live and die on their music, which is as frenetic as it gets.

Then we have things like old school JRPGs which also have very forefront music, and that turns out to be quite memorable and important for the experience.

It seems like maybe the atmospheric stuff is better for immersion, but the melodic stuff is better for emotion choreography - that is, binding certain impressions to things external to the player.

[Rosstin]

Aqualuft Games is working on our logo sound effect right now. I'll post some of our samples in a bit.

[TheRedFox201]

Hello Playground Gurus,
I am thinking of getting into Unity and or Unreal. This thread seems like the place to speak with my fellow sentient organisms and find both kinship and experienced appendages.

If there is anyone with advice to give regarding alternative choices to make or stuff, or a story to tell, then I welcome the learning opportunity.

Sincerely,
TheRedFox201

[Rosstin]

Just download the free version of Unity3D.

There used to be major differences between Pro and Free Unity3D, but with the latest releases those differences have diminished considerably. I'd make a developer account, get the free Unity3D download and link it to your account, do some tutorials and go nuts.

Later if you make an incredible game, you can pay ~$600 to get Unity3D Pro and thereby remove the Unity3D logo from your opening screen.

Regarding Unreal, Unreal is a strong competitor to Unity3D. It's prettier but slightly harder to use. Personally I think Unity3D is a rising star and I would focus on that when you start out, then I'd switch to Unreal if you hate Unity3D or discover something you need that Unreal does better.

[Grinner]

Today, I would specifically like to inquire into the legal hoops that I may have to jump through; ...

Asking for legal advice is verboten on these forums. However, there aren't any legal obstructions, really. At least for noncommercial purposes. Just create an account at unity3d.com or unrealengine.com, download, and get started.

If you're interested in commercial usage of either engine, there are some legal requirements that you need to be aware of. Unfortunately, you'll need to do your own research. Here (https://www.unrealengine.com/faq) and here (http://unity3d.com/get-unity) are good places to start.

[NichG]

I can't give legal advice, so I'll give game dev advice instead. Passion for a project wanes, and most projects will never be significant money-makers (or even be finished, ever). So worrying too much about future unknowns at the start of a project consumes part of that valuable time when your inspiration is at its peak.

Later it'll be a slog, and you'll be looking for distractions and a variety of tasks to keep yourself fresh. Then you can pleasantly and productively distract yourself by e.g. composing the license file or whatever.

[Rosstin]

I started a blog about doing VR stuff in Unity3d:

https://opensourcevrblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/20/a-gaze-based-controller-for-vr-in-unity3d/

[Grinner]

I've got a question about mechanics design.

Say you've got an idea of the broad theme and gameplay you want to achieve. How do you all go about designing the actual formulae which make everything work? I've got a design I've been slowly tinkering with, but after thinking of some mechanics, I realized it would be extremely simple for a player to optimize his "strategy" with some simple calculus.

[AgentPaper]

I've got a question about mechanics design.

Say you've got an idea of the broad theme and gameplay you want to achieve. How do you all go about designing the actual formulae which make everything work? I've got a design I've been slowly tinkering with, but after thinking of some mechanics, I realized it would be extremely simple for a player to optimize his "strategy" with some simple calculus.

This isn't really a problem to be solved with a better formula. Making the formula itself more complicated won't help anything, and neither is there some simple magic formula that will create good gameplay. What you really need to be doing, is thinking about what decisions the player is making in regards to this system. What decisions can he make, and what do those decisions mean for the rest of the game? What is he going to base his decisions on? Is the player deciding between different outcomes? Is he trying to pick the most optimal path? Or is he simply picking based on personal preference or play-style?

Once you know what decision the player is making and why, it's not problem if they can solve the formula to produce the results they desire. In fact, them being able to do so is what allows them to make their decision in the first place. Embrace that, and only make your formulas as complicated as they absolutely need to be in order for the player to be able to make the decisions you want him to make.

Past that, it's hard to give any really useful advice without getting more specific details on your game, the mechanic, and formulas involved.

[Grinner]

Once you know what decision the player is making and why, it's not problem if they can solve the formula to produce the results they desire. In fact, them being able to do so is what allows them to make their decision in the first place. Embrace that, and only make your formulas as complicated as they absolutely need to be in order for the player to be able to make the decisions you want him to make.

Therein lies the problem, though. I'm aiming for a very minimalistic, high-level take on turn-based strategy games, and I want to abstract away the management of individual battles, essentially making them all automatic. However, if a player knows the current formula by which the outcome is calculated* and the composition of an enemy force, what forces he needs to allocate probably just becomes an (admittedly multivariable) optimization problem.

I intend to introduce a couple extra wrinkles in the form of technology upgrades and casualties, but that doesn't really solve the fundamental problem of introducing uncertainty without relying solely on probability. And honestly, I'm not just asking for the sake of my own design, as I'm genuinely interested in how others approach that junction between design and implementation.

*Something like "X = (yourHeavyInfantry / enemyLightInfantry) + (yourCavalry / enemyHeavyInfantry) + (yourLightInfantry / enemyCavalry)", calculate X for both sides, and declare the higher one the winner.

[NichG]

This is a really deep question. I do a lot of messing around with evolutionary simulations and getting the results to be non-boring and unexpected is at the heart of those projects. I don't really have a recipe.

That said, two sorts of things that can often be useful are tension and building the direct manifestation of outcomes as a consequence of a differently-abstracted lower layer. Tension means that the player has multiple local goals that cannot be simultaneously perfectly satisfied. These goals should not be fungible - e.g. damage output in an attrition game can usually be converted into defense because it changes the length of a fight and therefore total damage taken. But if there are tight healing cycles, they become more decoupled

Layering is essentially making use of emergence to create incomparables. For example, its harder to assign a numerical value to a knight vs a bishop in chess because movement patterns in space are a rich sublayer. If a knight and bishop just had numerical mobility scores in an abstracted positioning system, it becomes easier for one to render the other obsolete.

If you can factor in player skill as a differentiating factor that's also good. Some players are better at reaction time or motion planning or strategy or... Making options place differential load on those faculties can help players feel like they have a distinct style, which helps the optimization feel more personal. A simple trick here is to design a series of things that are increasingly difficult to use, but have a higher power level when used correctly. For that to be good, the skill required must be inherently enjoyable to exercise and tune - doing extra paper accounting for more power is not a good way to do this for example.

Aside from those thoughts, I see mechanics design as exploring a huge set of questions. I try to use mechanics to ask 'what if?', and so its more driven by a kind of curiosity. If I can't quite imagine how I would play a given mechanic, but the mechanic makes me want to find out, that's a good sign.

[Grinner]

This is a really deep question. I do a lot of messing around with evolutionary simulations and getting the results to be non-boring and unexpected is at the heart of those projects. I don't really have a recipe.

...Is this at your dayjob? I recall you once saying you do something with computer simulations. Or do you use them for finding optimal solutions for your game(s)? Because that might be overkill...Impressive, but a lot of work to setup.


That said, two sorts of things that can often be useful are tension and building the direct manifestation of outcomes as a consequence of a differently-abstracted lower layer. Tension means that the player has multiple local goals that cannot be simultaneously perfectly satisfied. These goals should not be fungible - e.g. damage output in an attrition game can usually be converted into defense because it changes the length of a fight and therefore total damage taken. But if there are tight healing cycles, they become more decoupled...

Ah, I see you subscribe to the Will Wright school of game design...

Skill should definitely factor into gameplay at some level. Otherwise, it probably feels tedious, as though the player's decisions don't really matter. And that's certainly true to some extent. If the path to victory is too clear, then it's just a matter of whether the player wishes to win or lose. At the same time, it's unwise to be totally opaque about the needed course of action, as you risk being unfair or nonsensical.

Hiding information from the player that they reasonably shouldn't be privy to anyway might be a good way of creating uncertainty.

You say you have no recipe, but there's definitely some kind of logic at play here. I suppose time might yield a "unified theory of game design".

[NichG]

...Is this at your dayjob? I recall you once saying you do something with computer simulations. Or do you use them for finding optimal solutions for your game(s)? Because that might be overkill...Impressive, but a lot of work to setup.

Day job. Usually when you build an abstract simulation for research, you want it to surprise you so that you can learn something you didn't already know. So you're basically trying to figure out rules where you don't know what will happen at the outset but once you find it, that new knowledge is somehow useful. Kind of like experimental work, just on a computer.



Ah, I see you subscribe to the Will Wright school of game design...

Skill should definitely factor into gameplay at some level. Otherwise, it probably feels tedious, as though the player's decisions don't really matter. And that's certainly true to some extent. If the path to victory is too clear, then it's just a matter of whether the player wishes to win or lose. At the same time, it's unwise to be totally opaque about the needed course of action, as you risk being unfair or nonsensical.

Hiding information from the player that they reasonably shouldn't be privy to anyway might be a good way of creating uncertainty.

You say you have no recipe, but there's definitely some kind of logic at play here. I suppose time might yield a "unified theory of game design".

To me it feels more like heuristics, guesses as to what kinds of things make stable tensions and what kinds of things collapse into simpler optima. There are theories of game design though, and you can make use of some of that to figure out when you're going to get simple optima if the games are simple enough to fit the theories. For example, I might say that if there's a Nash Equilibrium it's probably not going to end up being so interesting. But if there's no Nash Equilibrium, then you have the question of whether or not some secondary valuation (like player style) comes in to break the symmetry and cause players to choose certain options consistently or not. Feedback can then be used to mess with things.

For example, Rock Paper Scissors goes in a cycle and doesn't have a deterministic 'best thing to play'. But if you display a preference, it gives your opponent advantage, so the pressure is towards random play. On the other hand, something like a fighting game where you become comfortable with a given character's moveset will tend to enhance preferences and make players feel like they have a 'favorite character'. In turn that can give the choices a feeling of personality and richness. Even if for a given player there's a single optimal choice, the player feels like its their choice rather than the game's choice.

I'm not sure building things by calculating Nash Equilibria is really worth the trouble though :smallsmile:

[AgentPaper]

Therein lies the problem, though. I'm aiming for a very minimalistic, high-level take on turn-based strategy games, and I want to abstract away the management of individual battles, essentially making them all automatic. However, if a player knows the current formula by which the outcome is calculated* and the composition of an enemy force, what forces he needs to allocate probably just becomes an (admittedly multivariable) optimization problem.

I intend to introduce a couple extra wrinkles in the form of technology upgrades and casualties, but that doesn't really solve the fundamental problem of introducing uncertainty without relying solely on probability. And honestly, I'm not just asking for the sake of my own design, as I'm genuinely interested in how others approach that junction between design and implementation.

*Something like "X = (yourHeavyInfantry / enemyLightInfantry) + (yourCavalry / enemyHeavyInfantry) + (yourLightInfantry / enemyCavalry)", calculate X for both sides, and declare the higher one the winner.

Ah, battle resolution. If you want uncertainty, then you need to hide things from the player. A random number generator is the most straightforwards way of doing this, and it is a useful tool that you shouldn't discount. At it's core, a RNG hides data from the player that will affect the battle. The player doesn't know whether their troops will get a +1 or a +20 in this battle, so they need to weigh the risks and decide whether it's worth engaging or not despite that lack of information, based on things like how likely they are to win the engagement despite poor numbers, or if winning the fight is so important that they need to take that chance.

A random number generator is an important and very useful tool, but you can hide information in other ways as well. For example, you could allow the player (and the enemy) to hide certain aspects of their army, such as exactly how many cavalry they have, or how well-trained their troops are, or what tactics you've told your generals to use, or how many of your macguffins you've given to to power up your army, etc. By making this information unknowable before the battle starts, you inject a bit of chance into the game, without completely taking away player agency. The player can use their head to try and predict things about the enemy army that they might not know directly, and therefore be able to decide whether an engagement is likely to be favorable or not.

That said, the nature of the uncertainty doesn't really matter so much as the uncertainty itself does. You can add more variables, make the formula more complicated, but in the end a simple formula with a bit of simple RNG will probably serve you much better. For a minimalistic, high-level strategy game, I'd even go so far as to make it simple "Army Strength + RNG", and whichever one is larger, wins the battle. This might seem like it wouldn't be as interesting as your more complicated version with different units countering each other, but as the heart of the system, it works. On its own, this won't make for an interesting game, but you need to look at it as part of the larger whole. Your game isn't about one battle, so trying to revolve your game design around making a single battle interesting isn't a good strategy. Instead, making it simple and relatively easy to predict most of the time frees up your player's attention and lets them look at the bigger picture. Let them worry about whether they're winning the war, not any given battle. Knowing whether you will win this battle is easy, but the real game will be in creating those situations where you win an easy battle.

How your player creates those situations is what you want to be focusing on, whether it's by having a larger army through better management or seeking allies, having better modifiers through bonuses from terrain, technology, etc, or by maneuvering armies to make sure you always have superior numbers in any given battle, even if you're outnumbered in the bigger picture.

[Grinner]

To me it feels more like heuristics, guesses as to what kinds of things make stable tensions and what kinds of things collapse into simpler optima. *snip*

This statement reminds me of trying to find strange attractors...Anyway, I wasn't quite thinking of game theory when I said that. I was more trying to think of a way to combine the behavioral and the...Will Wright-ish approaches to game design. I suppose game theory is applicable for certain types of games, though.


How your player creates those situations is what you want to be focusing on, whether it's by having a larger army through better management or seeking allies, having better modifiers through bonuses from terrain, technology, etc, or by maneuvering armies to make sure you always have superior numbers in any given battle, even if you're outnumbered in the bigger picture.

I was playing Age of Wonders the other day, and with a large dose of luck, I turned the entire scenario in my favor by beating a group of enemies almost three times my party's size over the course of two turns with only a single casualty. There are occasions where a small, outgunned force manages to win against a far superior force. I'd still like to be able to capture that.

But thanks. I've got a few ideas of how to proceed now.